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Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

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Sakuya's Butler said:
Get her out from under his partial control & corruption, and she turns near immediately into the closet tsundere we all know and waifu her over, then later goes full otaku dork (whose massive crush on her Master is blindingly obvious) and gets waifu'd even harder.
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To be fair, it did take all three (or just the last two?) of OG!Jeanne's Interlude(s) (with surprising 'assistance' from Mephisto) to progress to just that point; and then hammered in for good at the conclusion of the Da Vinci event.
 
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Impstar said:
Maybe I just don't remember Orleans that well, but I don't think any real connection to Chaldeas was made with Jalter there, that didn't really happen until the counterfeit incident, which might still happen. Alternatively, if the counterfeit incident doesn't happen, Jalter won't be written into the Throne of Heroes and they'll encounter someone else in Shinjuku.
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There is, there's a very specific thing which is the reveal of what she is, a fake version of Jeanne that Caster Gilles wished into existence, which has to happen for it and is kind of necessary in the long run, more than just Shinjuku or the Events. She's the first of many odd Servants, and there needs to be that belief that they'll be recorded on the Throne of Heroes beyond just the single time we meet them. Some are absolutely pivotal to Chaldea's success in the Final Singularity, such as Illya and Void Shiki, particularly the latter. Others include notables such as Cu Alter and potentially even Scathach and Merlin since just the bond is potentially not enough.
 
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James D. Fawkes said:
There's a disconnect between Taylor and her Servants, here. That's the difference between the "noble" heroes who see a personal conflict and decide they have no place interfering and a pragmatist like Taylor who doesn't care as much about "personal journeys" as she does making sure the job is done and done right.
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Taylor: "I get it, you've got some personal shit to work out between you, I've been there, but right now we've got to kill one of you so you'll have to forgive us for making this a short session of Group Therapy."
Rika: "Damn Taylor, that's cold."
EMIYA: 'She's perfect!'
Rika: "I HEARD THAT!"
 
Right. I guess what I don't get is the persistent belief that these Servants all provide an impossible to replace role in FGO and that's mostly just not true. If events change so they can't have as prominent a role, James will add someone who can fill said role.
 
Windborne said:
Void Shiki
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Void Shiki gives zero fucks about whether she is recorded, the problem is that they needed to friend regular Shiki.

I would posit the argument that a sufficiently skilled writer can fill the missing pieces without adhering strictly to canon. These holes can be filled in by either taking a different route, like say having Jalter manage to come back in another fashion like say during the Monte Christo event (which I can see having only Taylor dragged in), or by filling that hole with someone completely different.
 
Isiri Pudireach said:
Void Shiki gives zero fucks about whether she is recorded, the problem is that they needed to friend regular Shiki.

I would posit the argument that a sufficiently skilled writer can fill the missing pieces without adhering strictly to canon. These holes can be filled in by either taking a different route, like say having Jalter manage to come back in another fashion like say during the Monte Christo event (which I can see having only Taylor dragged in), or by filling that hole with someone completely different.
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Or he can bad end Taylor?

Yes, we can have time travel plots abound. In this timeline, Taylor failed to make friends with her enemies, thereby dooming Humanity. Rika is chosen to travel mentally back in time and tries to divert the course, but Taylor gets suspicious of a supposed newbie and ends up locking her away. Rika and Ritsuka talk, and sometime later after a few critical points in the timeline have passed, Rika is confirmed as a time traveler and not some sort of imposter, they go on to complete the Singularities and other stuff like normal, but fail because of those passed critical points, and so end up sending her back in time again, but with newfound knowledge of how to confirm her status as a time traveler, does better this time, but she gets offed sometime through taking Taylor with her, and so Ritsuka has to do the time-traveling, X amount of failed attempts later, and they finally make it through.

Only for most of them to die to the Alien God, because Olga didn't die. Then in a twist of irony, going against everything Taylor has been working for in reforming from the height of Khepri and her ultimate babysitting skills, she has to time-travel back to the beginning and let Olga die, on the word of a pre-cog, for the greater good of Humanity.
 
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SilverShadows said:
That is too many time travels, put them back.

Time traveling once can be dramatic, two is already on the wrong side of pushing it, between 5 and indefinite is a four dimensional train wreck.

Meguca only got away with it because Homura did ALL the series time traveling before even being introduced to the audience.
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You're also forgetting Steins;Gate. It's whole shtick was time travel in all its paradoxical glory. But yeah, I agree, juggling time travel like that would be very hard to keep fresh, though really, I was writing all that while just throwing as much time travel as I felt like just for the heck of it. It's not a very good system for good storyboards.
 
On the Chaldea connection thing with Jalter, wasn't it in the first Christmas event that we got more with her and that's what eventually snowballed into the counterfeit event? Because I'm pretty sure that's how it went.
 
DeclanDSI said:
You're also forgetting Steins;Gate. It's whole shtick was time travel in all its paradoxical glory. But yeah, I agree, juggling time travel like that would be very hard to keep fresh, though really, I was writing all that while just throwing as much time travel as I felt like just for the heck of it. It's not a very good system for good storyboards.
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Please no. Time travel is a bane of writing in general and stakes in particular. What is the price of failure when you can just start over again? Not to mention that it is extremely confusing for the reader and a nightmare for a writer to do it justice.
Most of the times someone includes time travel in their story 'just because' it becomes either a mess of tangled Christmas lights or a contrived, Deus Ex Machina-driven monstrosity.
 
Gilgamesh404 said:
Please no. Time travel is a bane of writing in general and stakes in particular. What is the price of failure when you can just start over again? Not to mention that it is extremely confusing for the reader and a nightmare for a writer to do it justice.
Most of the times someone includes time travel in their story 'just because' it becomes either a mess of tangled Christmas lights or a contrived, Deus Ex Machina-driven monstrosity.
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The bane of the Kingdom Hearts franchise.
It was good in Steins Gate and Madoka because the former was built around it, and the latter was kinda irrelevant.
In FGO it might as well be an isekai mechanic for all the effect on time the Singularities and Chaldea had.
 
The climax! Or so i like to think. That means we're very close to the conclusion and another chance at Lev IIRC. That said...
James D. Fawkes said:
I have an idea or two for Okeanos to shake things up.
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I am personally a bit impatient for Taytay to meet Artemis. I have that feeling ever since i read about her thinking it was her while fighting Atalanta. my mind has been going "ohoho, you're in for a treat!"

Alas, we still have a few while to go before that.
James D. Fawkes said:
Taylor might be a thorn in his side, but she's a small enough thorn that he won't dramatically alter things just to accommodate her presence.
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A small thorn in the side is still a thorn in the side. Sometimes it's the small things that brought people down. The devil is in the detail as they say. Eh, that's far off in the future though. One Demon Pillar at a time first.
 
Gilgamesh404 said:
Please no. Time travel is a bane of writing in general and stakes in particular. What is the price of failure when you can just start over again? Not to mention that it is extremely confusing for the reader and a nightmare for a writer to do it justice.
Most of the times someone includes time travel in their story 'just because' it becomes either a mess of tangled Christmas lights or a contrived, Deus Ex Machina-driven monstrosity.
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The best easy way to do time travel is to have rules, or else have the stakes so set against the time traveler that they themselves cannot become a deus ex machina and must rely on other characters for help, like in Higurashi no Naku no Koro ni. Though yes, it does take a particular touch and way of dealing with the plot for time travel.

For a time traveler, three things must be known.
One: Their goal. If they have no goal, they will fall into a sort of logic error (Umineko) and endlessly repeat without aim and end.
Two: The rules of their environment. What parts of the environment can they manipulate, and what parts of the environment are fated.
Three: Their enemy. Whether that enemy is the environment, a nebulous concept, or an actual person, whether that person is friendly or not, they must know who or what they are fighting against. In order to complete their goal, what obstacles must be overcome?

In a sense, there is no need to treat time travel like some concept too complicated to contemplate writing into a story well. It's like any other concept, just break it down into its parts to find the rules or key points, and write a story that balances the time traveler's influence upon the plot or justifies their influence within the meta for the enjoyment of the reader. As long as the reader enjoys it, what does it matter that there are plot holes.
*cough cough* Lord of the Rings. Frodo can ride the giant pigeons to Mount Doom Crackathoom and drop the McGuffin into its fiery depths. *cough cough*
Wow, that was one long suspiciously intelligible cough.
 
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DeclanDSI said:
*cough cough* Lord of the Rings. Frodo can ride the giant pigeons to Mount Doom Crackathoom and drop the McGuffin into its fiery depths. *cough cough*
Wow, that was one long suspiciously intelligible cough.
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argh.

The reason the Eagles can't go to Mount Doom is because it's a visible attack that'll run face-first into not only the perpetual banks of smog that cover Mordor low enough to block out most of the sun, but also whatever anti-air weapons Sauron has. Even enough arrows can fell the eagles, and then what?

Also, the whole point of the fellowship is that it's a small, unnoticed group, because Sauron could easily see the Eagles coming and prepare for them, just like he could see an army coming and prepare for them. The Eagles aren't invincible, and trying to brute force your way through Mordor is doomed to failure.

The fellowship plan was made because Mordor is basically immune to being taken or breached by the forces available to the people fighting Sauron, so they needed a group of highly skilled people to sneak into Mordor to destroy the ring.

(the reason for hobbits being included is also fairly obvious if you read through Tolkien's works. Hobbits are the masters of stealth of all the races. Reportedly, a perfectly ordinary hobbit can set a full picnic out feet from the average person, with the person none the wiser. They're insanely stealthy by nature)
 
Worldsoul15 said:
argh.

The reason the Eagles can't go to Mount Doom is because it's a visible attack that'll run face-first into not only the perpetual banks of smog that cover Mordor low enough to block out most of the sun, but also whatever anti-air weapons Sauron has. Even enough arrows can fell the eagles, and then what?

Also, the whole point of the fellowship is that it's a small, unnoticed group, because Sauron could easily see the Eagles coming and prepare for them, just like he could see an army coming and prepare for them. The Eagles aren't invincible, and trying to brute force your way through Mordor is doomed to failure.

The fellowship plan was made because Mordor is basically immune to being taken or breached by the forces available to the people fighting Sauron, so they needed a group of highly skilled people to sneak into Mordor to destroy the ring.

(the reason for hobbits being included is also fairly obvious if you read through Tolkien's works. Hobbits are the masters of stealth of all the races. Reportedly, a perfectly ordinary hobbit can set a full picnic out feet from the average person, with the person none the wiser. They're insanely stealthy by nature)
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That was informative. I've mainly watched the movies.

[jk]Though couldn't the eagles have used gas masks and a large wall of eagle meat shields to brute force their way through?
 
CapMorgan5569 said:
I never liked that that was an incorrect assumption. Like, the situation is horrible enough as it is, but each of those singularities, even corrected, are functionally events that shouldn't be, and should've been erased from the timeline as part of the correction. It just makes an already horrible and exhausting situation all the worse for no reason beyond Nasu deciding it was a good idea to do so.
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My problem is that it makes zero sense, and really doesn't work in-universe with the scale and recency of singularities they chose to go with.

America and London are probably the worst offenders. Mass death on the scale they depict in Industrial Revolution London or 1783 America is simply too big and too recent to be handwaved with "it's just a plague or something and history reasserted itself with different people taking up the same roles". That's without getting into the specific nature of some of the deaths, like the entirety of the United States government or apparently every single person at in the Clock Tower somehow.

It feels pretty obvious that Nasu threw it in for drama and cool factor in Babylonia without considering the previous singularities other than Camelot at all, and that it either wasn't a planned thing or all the previous writers missed the memo.
 
5 hours later and a decent nap, and I'm still not over it. Walmart is having an early access deal for next gen consoles at noon Eastern Time for their Walmart+ members! Except even if you refresh the page at noon on the dot, you get put into a "20 minute" queue that lasts an hour, only to be ejected with 3 minutes on the timer and told "currently out of stock." Fucking... UGH!

I just want a Series X without having to pay ridiculous markup prices. Is that really so much to ask? Because this feels like something I heard a while back. "You can do everything right and still lose."
Landb said:
My problem is that it makes zero sense, and really doesn't work in-universe with the scale and recency of singularities they chose to go with.

America and London are probably the worst offenders. Mass death on the scale they depict in Industrial Revolution London or 1783 America is simply too big and too recent to be handwaved with "it's just a plague or something and history reasserted itself with different people taking up the same roles". That's without getting into the specific nature of some of the deaths, like the entirety of the United States government or apparently every single person at in the Clock Tower somehow.

It feels pretty obvious that Nasu threw it in for drama and cool factor in Babylonia without considering the previous singularities other than Camelot at all, and that it either wasn't a planned thing or all the previous writers missed the memo.
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It's always felt like it undermines the stakes to me. And I do agree that it doesn't make much sense for twisted gnarls of altered spacetime that exist off the proper axis of history to not be completely and totally corrected, including the lives lost. But it also adds some weight to what you accomplish in Babylonia, since it makes Gil's comment about, "I predicted less than thirty, and through your efforts, you brought that up to over five hundred," or whatever the numbers were, feel impactful. It just makes the scale of the rest of the Singularities feel off, since Babylonia is mostly about saving the people of Uruk and America covers the entire continental US, which has a whole lot more lives at stake than Uruk does.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
It's always felt like it undermines the stakes to me. And I do agree that it doesn't make much sense for twisted gnarls of altered spacetime that exist off the proper axis of history to not be completely and totally corrected, including the lives lost. But it also adds some weight to what you accomplish in Babylonia, since it makes Gil's comment about, "I predicted less than thirty, and through your efforts, you brought that up to over five hundred," or whatever the numbers were, feel impactful. It just makes the scale of the rest of the Singularities feel off, since Babylonia is mostly about saving the people of Uruk and America covers the entire continental US, which has a whole lot more lives at stake than Uruk does.
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Not even that. Gil predicted that EVERYONE in Uruk would die, that there would be no survivors at all. Saving 500 of his people was a miracle, plain and simple. Of course, since Tiamat's Advent was such a massive disruption to history, anyone who was killed by the Lahmu or turned into a Lahmu - such as Siduri, as confirmed by Ibaraki's interlude - were restored to life once Babylonia was resolved, unlike those who fell to the other Demonic Beasts or died of other causes.
 
The only way to make the whole the people who die don't come back to life/ they come back to life thing work to any degree is say the world is lazy and only brings back those who make an impact on history in the future or have decedents who make an impact in the future. So then it becomes the important, because the fuckups in France and America would cause the world to unravel. The world can probably spoof some distant decedents by having someone with similar enough DNA take their place. It really annoys me how much they play fast and loose with alot of details of course that's what you get when you pull multiple writers to do multiple parts.

It makes sense because if you look at the writers list Nasu did Singularity F, Camelot, and Babylon if you take the rules he set in Babylon and apply it to Camelot you can say yes that wouldn't break the world. But those same rules applied to America, London, or France and the problems start popping up.

It's not like the dead coming back to life is that unbelievable in the first place considering the method of how they died in the first place. When I read through the FGO story for the first time I thought they were destroying humanity by using the Holy Grails to wish the incompatible history into actual history therefore causing the world to implode. Then I got distracted by everything else and I'm guessing Nasu did too. Then Nasu was like how do I raise the stakes without looking back for contradictions which to be honest he does a lot.
 
Flamerai said:
apply it to Camelot you can say yes that wouldn't break the world
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Just keep in mind that Camelot was pretty much an exception among exceptions due to the Lion King warping the singularity, making it questionable if the exact same rules applied.

For London though, well, given most of the confirmed deaths beyond the Magi, were caused by a Serial Killer, death by criminal acts is the most logical choice as the replacement.
 
NormalGuy said:
True, but that's incredibly easy to translate to the PHH timeline, as the cause of fog given off by the Industrial Revolution and a lack of proper safety.
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That isn't really the issue though. It doesn't matter that you can come up with a nonmagical explanation for the deaths that would be accepted in the time period, the real issue is that at least 10x more people died in these Singularity clusterfucks than the real life historical events that they warped.

A reminder of the death tolls from each Singularity:
-Fuyuki: An entire city of tens of thousands of people dies in 2004.
-Orleans: large swaths of the French countryside are depopulated, most notably Lyon and Orleans (and Paris? I forget) are completely fucking massacred, and King Charles died early.
-Septem: Relatively low-key for a Singularity since I don't remember large civilian populations getting massacred, but plenty of soldiers still died and considering it's the singularity second furthest in the past that should have a massive butterfly effect.
-Okeanos: Doesn't really matter since it was a bullshit patchwork realm and I don't think we had any confirmed real people aside from Francis Drake's crew, who mostly survived.
-London: The historical pollution fog that killed plenty of people was cranked up to 11 and then they just infested it with killer robots. Because fuck you that's why. The historical event killed thousands, this probably kicked that up an order of magnitude. And the Clocktower was completely wiped out.
-E Pluribus Unum: The only place we really get to see destroyed by the Celts was DC, which is bad enough, but they took control of the entire east coast and were massacring anyone they could find. In 1783 That's where literally everyone (aside from the natives) lived. Looking back on things I'm wondering how the fuck Alcatraz was a thing.
-Camelot: The Crusaders all died and most of the natives of Judea got massacred.
-Babylonia: Oldest human civilization that literally everyone on the planet is probably descended from is reduced from tens of thousands of people to 500. And you know, ends at least a thousand years early. Even if the tide that converted people into Lahmu doesn't count several cities of thousands of people still got obliterated before that.

How the fuck is the planet supposed to fudge any numbers to make important people still be born and all of history happen mostly the same when there aren't any numbers left to fudge? setting aside the butterfly effect for a moment, France and the US should've just stopped existing as nations with the casualties they suffered. Did the Akashic record just shrug it's shoulders and replace the dead with saberfaces?

In short, nothing makes any sense and the only logical explanation is that best Gilgamesh was fucking with us.
 
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memoryofglory said:
-London: The historical pollution fog that killed plenty of people was cranked up to 11 and then they just infested it with killer robots. The historical event killed thousands, this probably kicked that up an order of magnitude. And the Clocktower was completely wiped out.
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"We've found the Singularity! It's in Londen. Millions were killed and the Clocktower was wiped out."

"That's must've had massive ripples in history."

"It looks like... humanity is doing much better overall."

"Didn't you say millions died?"

"Yes, and the Clocktower was wiped out. You win some, you lose some."
 
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