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Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

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It's much less of a question whether modern individuals can become Heroic Spirits (they can, see above examples provided by other posters), but more whether they have enough of a legend behind them to be worth a damn in pitched battle against longer-established Heroic Spirits, in a contest of Noble Phantasms.

So yeah; Earth Bet could have any number of Heroic Spirit candidates (most notably, Khepri and the Triumvirate), but with their legends being so recent, or for that matter, even arguably spreading beyond Earth Bet?

Nasuverse-defined conceptual priority has (almost) always favored the older / more well-known legends to overwhelm those that which is 'lesser' in each (weighted somewhat more towards the former; re: Gilgamesh).
 
I've said it before in the Essence thread, but by and large, there are several capes who definitely made it to the Throne. Most of them (with the exception of a few, like Alexandria) will have terrible stats and a relatively limited array of skills, but Noble Phantasms of disproportionate strength. Alexandria will have a sort of Godhand/Andreias Amarantos ripoff, for example, and Khepri naturally will depend on which part of her legend she comes from, with endgame Khepri leaning harder on her powerful Noble Phantasms and earlier Skitter focusing more on her skills. The likes of Jack Slash and Bonesaw/"The Good Doctor" will also make it there, and by virtue of how he died and the methods used for blending in, so probably will Scion, although Scion is naturally a very dangerous Servant to summon because he very easily slips towards Beasthood and even when he doesn't, he has a hard time connecting with his Master, to say nothing of how much of an energy hog he would be.

As for those sorts of Heroic Spirits showing up in this particular story, that's not the kind of story this is. I have some thoughts for later Pseudo-Servants that I'm still hashing out with the editing team, but don't go forward expecting that we'll see any other Worm/Ward characters at any point.
 
As for those sorts of Heroic Spirits showing up in this particular story, that's not the kind of story this is. I have some thoughts for later Pseudo-Servants that I'm still hashing out with the editing team, but don't go forward expecting that we'll see any other Worm/Ward characters at any point.
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Honestly I'm relieved to hear that. The story of Taylor Hebert in the Grand Order is more interesting so far than the story of Worm in the Grand Order.
 
I am 100% on board with that decision. One thing though wouldn't Scion be more of a Foreigner than a Beast on account of being an alien and all?
 
James D. Fawkes said:
Most of them (with the exception of a few, like Alexandria) will have terrible stats and a relatively limited array of skills, but Noble Phantasms of disproportionate strength.
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At the risk of inciting a most-unwise (for myself) argument with the story's author...

I figured that the situation for Earth Bet's Heroic Spirits (Triumvirate-tier, anyways) would be the exact opposite; as in, decent-to-fantastic base parameters and skill ratings, yet middling Noble Phantasms at-best.

That said, as your story it IS 1000% your prerogative to bend / twist / override Nasuverse conceptual priority rules regarding 'Weight of Legend' and / or 'Mystery' (as applied to Noble Phantasms) as you see fit.

Addendum: I'm not sure how to interpret 'disproportionate strength' as applied to Noble Phantasms; does that mean that, regardless of letter ranking, some of Earth Bet's NPs could overcome higher-ranked ones from Pan-Human History?
 
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Finagle007 said:
Exactly. He doesn't have any love for humanity, never did. So he can't qualify for Beasthood.
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That rule feels iffy to me honestly. For example, I would never accuse Fou of particularly loving humanity. Or the Beast in Fate/Prototypes. Heck, even Kiara only loves humanity on the technicality that she views herself as the only true human.

And while Scion certainly never loved humanity, he did try to imitate them so closely that he even adopted human emotions, which is ultimately what screwed him over.
 
Impstar said:
That rule feels iffy to me honestly. For example, I would never accuse Fou of particularly loving humanity. Or the Beast in Fate/Prototypes. Heck, even Kiara only loves humanity on the technicality that she views herself as the only true human.

And while Scion certainly never loved humanity, he did try to imitate them so closely that he even adopted human emotions, which is ultimately what screwed him over.
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Yeah
Loving humanity is hard rule look at Douman is the world reason he failed
Maybe Scion fit more like a Threat to Humanity in the foreigner style with fit him more shit maybe something more close to the Natural Vortingern
 
Tfallout said:
Yeah
Loving humanity is hard rule look at Douman is the world reason he failed
Maybe Scion fit more like a Threat to Humanity in the foreigner style with fit him more shit maybe something more close to the Natural Vortingern
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How would you explain Fou's or 666's Beast status then? Neither gave the impression that they loved humanity.
 
Impstar said:
How would you explain Fou's or 666's Beast status then? Neither gave the impression that they loved humanity.
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The thing is that Fou never reached the Beast state and Primate Murder is being controlled so he isn't really a Beast I say, so on Fou who knows
And 666 same that Fou is not like we have anything on it only that it seems to love Manaka I think it was, so that alone maybe could be
 
Impstar said:
How would you explain Fou's or 666's Beast status then? Neither gave the impression that they loved humanity.
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Well, I don't think that we've seen 666 Beast outside of Prototypes, and I'm not that well informed on it. But I can do a bit of speculation about Fou.
Fou's thing as a Beast is the concept of Comparison. Which doesn't sound like much, except that each Beast's thing is how their love manifests. Fou loves humanity's drive to improve, to compare itself to others for better or worse. That Comparison leads Fou to grow, so that by comparison to humanity, it is the apex, with nothing greater. However, even as The Beast Of Comparison observes things that are weaker than itself, it is also the apex predator. The apex predator thus expresses it's love for that which is weaker than itself by consuming, showing it's appreciation in the only way that it can.
 
And 666 is connected to Nero, and her whole thing is that her subjects never loved her the way she loved them, and she could never understand why.
 
TimeDiver said:
I figured that the situation for Earth Bet's Heroic Spirits (Triumvirate-tier, anyways) would be the exact opposite; as in, decent-to-fantastic base parameters and skill ratings, yet middling Noble Phantasms at-best.
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It's because their powers have all the Mystery, not they themselves. Alex gets high STR and END stats, probably decent AGI. Eidolon gets massive MAG, because he'd lean heavily on his NP. Legend has really high level AGI. But the rest of their stats are pretty middling at best. They definitely have a few good skills. But the Noble Phantasms are going to be representations of their powers, largely, and those would be at least "average," where Nasu defined average as B-Rank.
 
To be honest, I'd classify Scion as more akin to a Dead Apostle Ancestor than a Beast or even Foreigner, his very presence weakens the Human Order rather than just challenging or threatening it. The only reason he doesn't qualify is that he doesn't drink blood or possess a Principle, though make no mistake he's a vampire just the same.
 
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NormalGuy said:
To be honest, I'd classify Scion as more akin to a Dead Apostle Ancestor than a Beast or even Foreigner, his very presence weakens the Human Order rather than just challenging or threatening it. The only reason he doesn't qualify is that he doesn't drink blood or possess a Principle, though make no mistake he's a vampire just the same.
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I'm pretty sure you are confusing cause and effect: the DAA can only exist in worlds where the Human Order is weakened, the Human Order isn't weakend because they exist.
 
Tzardok said:
I'm pretty sure you are confusing cause and effect: the DAA can only exist in worlds where the Human Order is weakened, the Human Order isn't weakend because they exist.
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True. Though I'd argue that there's a good chance the Human Order is weakened partly because they're organised and reached their level of power.
 
Impstar said:
How would you explain Fou's or 666's Beast status then?
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catDreaming said:
Fou's thing as a Beast is the concept of Comparison. Which doesn't sound like much, except that each Beast's thing is how their love manifests. Fou loves humanity's drive to improve, to compare itself to others for better or worse. That Comparison leads Fou to grow, so that by comparison to humanity, it is the apex, with nothing greater.
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catDreaming has it right, in that each Beast has some sort of Love for Humanity that is unique to them. What's missing here is that Fou isn't a Beast yet, but is a Beast Candidate, and has not yet manifested as a Beast. The creature that is Fou requires a master to compare itself to, and grows to fit the image of that master. Under Altrouge Brunestud you get Primate Murder, a creature wholly suited towards the killing of Humans. Whether this creature has any love for Humanity is kinda under debate as it's master has no love for humans and hates them.

When the creature is taken in by Merlin, as in FGO, it becomes Cath Palug, and here is where it becomes more Beast-like. Merlin loves Humanity in a way that is similar to Beasts, but is able to restrain himself from the more dangerous impulses that go along with it. This same restraint is what prevents Cath Palug from going full Beast as well.

Then you get to Mash Kyrielight, who shows Fou the beauty of Humanity as humans see it. This is why during Solomon, Fou says that the Beast of Comparison is defeated before it is born, as that would be the title it would inherit if it fully manifested itself as a Beast.

Tl;dr - Fou is a Beast Candidate, special requirement to go full Beast is compare itself to a master and grow to be more like them. Of the three masters we know it's had, special circumstances has prevented it's full manifestation as a Beast.
 
TimeDiver said:
At the risk of inciting a most-unwise (for myself) argument with the story's author...

I figured that the situation for Earth Bet's Heroic Spirits (Triumvirate-tier, anyways) would be the exact opposite; as in, decent-to-fantastic base parameters and skill ratings, yet middling Noble Phantasms at-best.

That said, as your story it IS 1000% your prerogative to bend / twist / override Nasuverse conceptual priority rules regarding 'Weight of Legend' and / or 'Mystery' (as applied to Noble Phantasms) as you see fit.

Addendum: I'm not sure how to interpret 'disproportionate strength' as applied to Noble Phantasms; does that mean that, regardless of letter ranking, some of Earth Bet's NPs could overcome higher-ranked ones from Pan-Human History?
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You're wrong. Exhibit A: Nikola fucking Tesla, died 1943, Noble Phantasm is between A-EX rank depending on which stats you're looking at. Age is only a positive or negative factor on a heroic spirit's or Noble Phantasm's power when they feel like it or on odd numbered Tuesdays or whatever.

Heck, we can go back to the original source material if you want. Medusa is a few thousand years older than Arturia, but Pegasus still loses to Excalibur in a head-to-head clash.

Every single factor that supposedly goes into determining the 'power level' of a heroic spirit can be either ignored or arbitrarily superseded by another factor whenever the author wants. It doesn't matter that Hero's only been dead for a couple decades, if he wants to get into a beam battle with Medea of Colchis then there's no (enforceable) law that says he can't win, even though she's got several thousand more years of 'conceptual weight' than he does.
 
memoryofglory said:
You're wrong. Exhibit A: Nikola fucking Tesla, died 1943, Noble Phantasm is between A-EX rank depending on which stats you're looking at. Age is only a positive or negative factor on a heroic spirit's or Noble Phantasm's power when they feel like it or on odd numbered Tuesdays or whatever.
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I have zero intention of continuing this line-of-near-argument (though at the risk of opening up a new one with the below content), but to prevent any further misunderstandings, I will still point out that in a previous reply, I stated the following:
TimeDiver said:
Nasuverse-defined conceptual priority has (almost) always favored the older / more well-known legends to overwhelm those that which is 'lesser' in each (weighted somewhat more towards the former; re: Gilgamesh).
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Note the emphasis on 'somewhat more'; I'm well-aware that the legend of Arthur (or Artoria) Pendragon's sheer fame FAR more than compensates for the lack of historical weight.

And while I'm quite familiar with Nikola Tesla via watching numerous F/GO Let's Play(s), I wonder just how much the-then-general public's acknowledgment altered his HS status (at the time of OR after death), re: another recipient of Pioneer of the Stars (EX).

I accept the profile as described in-game AND via his Mats as now-inviolable Nasuverse canon, yet I still struggle to fully reconcile just how 'temperamental' (for lack of a better term) the Human Order can be in acknowledging modern-day Heroic Spirits.

Also including the Voyager space probe, Neil Armstrong, etc. etc. Even with nearly 15 years of on-again/off-again delving into the lore, I am frequently reminded by others that this is all supposed to be internally consistent, yet I cannot fully acknowledge that.

I will repeat myself; please do not take that mini-rant at the end as indication of desiring to start a new argument... it is what it appears to be (a mini-rant) and nothing more than that. And with that, I will reply no further on the initial tangent, nor this one.
 
Honestly, a halloween event can work, just like, don't do some wack shit that breaks all canon and the 4th wall and doesn't make sense and what not, as fgo events sometimes tend to do. Just like, a realistic event that's during halloween or something. A halloween party or whatever works.
 
I wanted to try doing a "Serenity's canon story got screwed to hell and back by the bad guy getting a Holy Grail dropped on his head." Because it would start off the rails, I could work with her character and her setting without worrying about spoiling too much of her story.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
Alexandria will have a sort of Godhand/Andreias Amarantos ripoff, for example, and Khepri naturally will depend on which part of her legend she comes from, with endgame Khepri leaning harder on her powerful Noble Phantasms and earlier Skitter focusing more on her skills. The likes of Jack Slash and Bonesaw/"The Good Doctor" will also make it there, and by virtue of how he died and the methods used for blending in, so probably will Scion, although Scion is naturally a very dangerous Servant to summon because he very easily slips towards Beasthood and even when he doesn't, he has a hard time
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A few things:

1) Is anyone else shipping Scion and Attila?

2) What class would Alexandria be most easily summoned? Due to her invulnerability, she may most easily be a shielder ....

3) Which worm character is a saberface? There has to be at least one, if not more.

4) Would Taylor's negative z luck mean that she'll summon someone who really hates her, like Alexandria or Sophia (tho she's not that likely to be in the Throne of Heroes)?

5) can shiki kill entities? (Assuming some special event)
 
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TimeDiver said:
I have zero intention of continuing this line-of-near-argument (though at the risk of opening up a new one with the below content), but to prevent any further misunderstandings, I will still point out that in a previous reply, I stated the following:

Note the emphasis on 'somewhat more'; I'm well-aware that the legend of Arthur (or Artoria) Pendragon's sheer fame FAR more than compensates for the lack of historical weight.

And while I'm quite familiar with Nikola Tesla via watching numerous F/GO Let's Play(s), I wonder just how much the-then-general public's acknowledgment altered his HS status (at the time of OR after death), re: another recipient of Pioneer of the Stars (EX).

I accept the profile as described in-game AND via his Mats as now-inviolable Nasuverse canon, yet I still struggle to fully reconcile just how 'temperamental' (for lack of a better term) the Human Order can be in acknowledging modern-day Heroic Spirits.

Also including the Voyager space probe, Neil Armstrong, etc. etc. Even with nearly 15 years of on-again/off-again delving into the lore, I am frequently reminded by others that this is all supposed to be internally consistent, yet I cannot fully acknowledge that.

I will repeat myself; please do not take that mini-rant at the end as indication of desiring to start a new argument... it is what it appears to be (a mini-rant) and nothing more than that. And with that, I will reply no further on the initial tangent, nor this one.
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One of the main explanations I've heard is that most of the characters who were explaining things to us at the very beginning were dead wrong about half the things they were talking about. Unreliable narrators are a perfectly fine thing to use, but for fans in a foreign country who have been getting piecemeal fan translations and adaptations for a decade and a half it confuses the issue pretty hard.

And I picked Arturia v Medusa because Pegasus is about as famous as Excalibur, so you'd expect the difference in age to decide the clash right? I suppose it could just be that Medusa can't bring out her mount's full power and you'd need to summon Bellerophon or Perseus if you want to beat Excalibur in a beam-off, but who the heck knows?

But the main thrust of my argument is that grand sweeping statements about 'how things work in the Nasuverse' should pretty much always be questioned and double checked.
 
catDreaming said:
Fou's thing as a Beast is the concept of Comparison. Which doesn't sound like much, except that each Beast's thing is how their love manifests. Fou loves humanity's drive to improve, to compare itself to others for better or worse. That Comparison leads Fou to grow, so that by comparison to humanity, it is the apex, with nothing greater. However, even as The Beast Of Comparison observes things that are weaker than itself, it is also the apex predator. The apex predator thus expresses it's love for that which is weaker than itself by consuming, showing it's appreciation in the only way that it can.
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Fou is the funhouse mirror that bloats the image. Humanity defines him. By his own words if he sees naught but the cruelty and malice of man he becomes the unsightly beast, Primate Murder, but in worlds that expose him to virtue and compassion he stays the Fou we know and love willing to sacrifice his own ego to save just a single human life.
 
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