Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Depends. Like, seriously, like every other rule in Nasuverse, it's affected by fanservice. Mordred and Emiya retain their character development from their earlier works, for example.
Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]
- Thread starter James D. Fawkes
- Start date
- Crossover
Depends. Like, seriously, like every other rule in Nasuverse, it's affected by fanservice. Mordred and Emiya retain their character development from their earlier works, for example.
thelordofmango
may be stupid
- Location
- under a rock
There are no rules, write whatever
- Location
- Tennessee
I believe EMIYA is a more special case and can't be used as an example in this regard. He is fundamentally different from a normal Heroic Spirit. If you want to make the argument that all Counter Guardians are Heroic Spirits, then you also have to explain why EMIYA is the way that he is, since being used as a Counter Guardian is what made him regret his dream - if the version of him on the Throne is immutable, why does he remember and get bitter over everything he's done?
One explanation is that it's due to his RM, but I think it's likely that being a Counter Guardian has fundamental differences.
Also also, here is official material from Fate/Complete Material III:
So the official answer is that Heroic Spirits on the Throne absolutely can be and are changed by their summons, but there's a disconnect. They don't retain the memories, they just retain the information in a detached way as a record.
So it's entirely possible for someone on the Throne like Modred to read "Servant Mordred reconciled her issues with her father and liege after learning that said parent did not make her heir in order to protect her from the burden of kingship that was breaking Arthur's spirit" and reflect on that and lose her hatred. That said - and this is conjecture on my part - her hatred and betrayal are a part of her identity, so even if the main entity on the Throne changes, if a summoner had a high compatibility with the version of her who still had hatred in her heart, that version could probably still be summoned.
That could be why EMIYA changes over time as well, but really I think the info we get on him between all the sources gives the impression that he has very vivid memories of the things that has happened while being a Guardian, so I still make the argument they are fundamentally different in that regard.
One explanation is that it's due to his RM, but I think it's likely that being a Counter Guardian has fundamental differences.
Also also, here is official material from Fate/Complete Material III:
So the official answer is that Heroic Spirits on the Throne absolutely can be and are changed by their summons, but there's a disconnect. They don't retain the memories, they just retain the information in a detached way as a record.
So it's entirely possible for someone on the Throne like Modred to read "Servant Mordred reconciled her issues with her father and liege after learning that said parent did not make her heir in order to protect her from the burden of kingship that was breaking Arthur's spirit" and reflect on that and lose her hatred. That said - and this is conjecture on my part - her hatred and betrayal are a part of her identity, so even if the main entity on the Throne changes, if a summoner had a high compatibility with the version of her who still had hatred in her heart, that version could probably still be summoned.
That could be why EMIYA changes over time as well, but really I think the info we get on him between all the sources gives the impression that he has very vivid memories of the things that has happened while being a Guardian, so I still make the argument they are fundamentally different in that regard.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
There's also an example of Nero Saber/Nero Bride being different because one retained the memories about that MC in Fate/Extella, and the other didn't.
Don't think about it, the writers certainly didn't. What's consistency even, when you can instead draw a cute girl in a wedding dress?
Even when that cute girl is genderbent Emperor Nero.
Don't think about it, the writers certainly didn't. What's consistency even, when you can instead draw a cute girl in a wedding dress?
Even when that cute girl is genderbent Emperor Nero.
Considering how servants that we see are not per say the entirity of the heroic spirit it probably depends on what in particular gets pulled into the servant container which probably has a fair chunk of margin for error
- Location
- Philippines
Honestly Nero Bride kind of feels like a lazy attempt to make a Nero that FGO players could make their waifu with Extella fans going "BUT SHE'S FOR HER PRAETOR". Of course whether it worked or not is up to interpretation, and again either way it's an example of the consistency (or lack thereof) that Fate has for its own rules.
The ToH is atemporal. It exists outside of time. Everything that ever happened to a Heroic Spirit and everything that ever will are fundamentally the same thing at the Throne. To that end it makes sense that when summoned as a Servant the hero's memories are pruned of anything that would unnecessarily interfere with their purpose or cause a paradox. Once the Servant returns to the Throne it uploads the "report" that the hero had since its ascension to prevent an atemporal cause-effect paradox.
That means EMIYA as a counter guardian, has memories of all the previous summoning (both as a Servant and a Counter Guardian) because he needs to. The memory serves as an experience and references to deal with threats that will threaten humanity.
Correct, except whenever he's summoned some memories would by necessity be restricted. Such as those from during the summoning because if he had those it would cause an infinite reccursion spiral of him knowing knowing, and knowing that, and knowing knowing that he knows knowing... you get where this is going.
The throne of heroes is in the Root after all, in fact I suspect that it was Alaya who was restricting his memory when Rin summoned him at once might derail the entire HGW and not bc of Rin's mistake that caused his memory loss. That or he lied through his teeth that he didn't remember who he was he is an Asshole like that.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
The throne isn't entirely atemporal, since information can be excised from it, and not retroactively either. Otherwise a few story beats in FGO wouldn't happen the way they do.
It all sounds more impressive and self-important than it really is. There is a clash between Immutable Rules and Protagonist Snowflakes, and ten times out of ten, protagonists win.
It all sounds more impressive and self-important than it really is. There is a clash between Immutable Rules and Protagonist Snowflakes, and ten times out of ten, protagonists win.
That and the Type moon is ultimately a collection of different writers who has their own biases and also play favorite with their own characters including Nasu in order to force us to roll for gacha and buy merchandise of our favorite big tiddies milker waifu.
When was information removed?
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
- Location
- Void
I'm pretty sure the former is less Solomon is deleted from the Throne utterly, and more like his data is unable to be accessed anymore. If I recall the correct metaphor for the situation would be that Solomon's "Book" closed, with all his "plotlines" finished. Don't recall Musashi offhand, but wasn't she a rayshifting human and not a Servant, or did I miss her turning into one at some point?
Pretty sure when this was last discussed it was said that Solomon wasn't erased, but rather he was concluded. All that Solomon would ever do was achieved and returned to God, and so he will never do anything again. Being inaccessible isn't being deleted.
Musashi as we had her wasn't ever part of a History we could tap into though. When she became our Servant her SG was stored in the Fate system and when she slammed the door on Chaos her data was lost so we can't resummon her. Once again inaccessible =! deleted. I suppose a similar thing would apply to any Servant not from the PHH ToH or whatever histories Chaldea has records and access to. I mean Pryllia might be a Servant, but she isn't on any ToH so if her SG data is lost she would also be permanently lost as a resummonable Servant. Though in that case instead of not having access to her ToH it's her not even being part of it in the first place.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Literally nothing you two said contradicts me.
Throne is atemporal, therefore cannot be affected by external manipulation.
However, when it's protagonists doing it, they possess Extra Special Powers that allow them to achieve the impossible and move the immovable object. The details of how it's achieved are only semantics needed to justify why the exception exists in the first place.
Throne is atemporal, therefore cannot be affected by external manipulation.
However, when it's protagonists doing it, they possess Extra Special Powers that allow them to achieve the impossible and move the immovable object. The details of how it's achieved are only semantics needed to justify why the exception exists in the first place.
The protagonist possesses the power of friendship and plot armor to summon their favorite servants just like Nasu and the writing possess the power to make up excuses to help us get those servants bc those servants are their favorites too. Established lore can go fuck themselves, tiddies of all sizes come first.
The difference is, let's say you have a library and nothing can be removed from it. It's like saying, hey, you can remove X book from this library, proving that you can remove things from it. Except that book was never in the library. So obviously a book never having been in the library cannot be used as evidence that things can be removed from the library.
That said, Solomon at the very least does seem to be an exception.
Last edited:
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Also, just to address it,
Musashi is both a Heroic Spirit and a human. You can summon a version of her through the gacha, which is explicitly different from her Rayshifting human self, and she says as much.
Just another exception, I suppose.
Ah no, wait, she dies during the story, achieves heroic status, then erases herself from existence.
I don't even fucking care anymore.
Musashi is both a Heroic Spirit and a human. You can summon a version of her through the gacha, which is explicitly different from her Rayshifting human self, and she says as much.
Just another exception, I suppose.
Ah no, wait, she dies during the story, achieves heroic status, then erases herself from existence.
I don't even fucking care anymore.
Last edited:
Roll for comprehension... ouch it's a 1.
We literally just said that we are not the exception to the rules. We cannot resummon Solomon, we cannot resummon Musashi.
Solomon was not erased from the ToH, Musashi was not erased.
After Ars Nova is used Solomon can no longer be summoned. Period. The ToH is atemporal not acausal. Solomon on the Throne was always under the effects of Ars Nova from the moment of his ascension, and the effects of Ars Nova are that once it is activated Solomon can henceforth no longer be summoned.
And Musashi-
originated from a Pruned timeline that never became a Lostbelt. Chaldea doesn't have access to her deviant human history's ToH as of current. She's still there, but it's out of our reach. She was already a Servant when we contracted her, and we had summoning capabilities for her because her Saint Graph data was preserved in the Fate system. That data was lost and we can't restore it.
More like there's multiple libraries, and they allow members to borrow copies of their collections. But The book "Solomon" got put into a restricted access vault and no more copies can be issued.
The book "Musashi" that we're looking for is in a different library, and we don't have a membership card for it. Our library has a different book called "Musashi."
Accept that even Nasu and the writers, the assisstant and the editor sometimes even loses track of their own lore bc of their own convoluted magic system and just enjoy the tiddies my friend.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
I disagree with you, but I no longer care enough about the argument to continue it, it happens to me often.
You could consider yourself the winner through attrition or whatever?
At this point, we're just talking past each other, I don't accept your arguments as valid, you don't accept mine, time to move on.
Your claim: Information (in this particular case two whole Heroes) were removed from the ToH. The Throne is immutable. Except we, the protagonist, can break that rule.
My response: They weren't removed, they became inaccessible. The Throne is immutable. We, the protagonist, explicitly have not broken that rule.
Your rebuttal: Nothing you said contradicts me.
Bro, they be mutually fuckin exclusive claims.
It's not even an issue of whose claim is right at that point, you can't just disagree with that. It's not an opinion. Something cannot simultaneously not be in a box to be accessed and be in the box but not accessible. This isn't Schrodinger's Servant here.