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Harry Potter and the Skittering Spouse

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Mr_Rose said:
All the evil intent and direction in your examples comes from humans, not the force empowering their actions.
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So you think Harry Potter magic can't design a spell which requires only evil intent to cast? Like say a reverse version of The Partronus Charm? A spell fueled by evil intent which can only be used for evil?

Because that's what I maintain the Dark Wizards and Dark Witches who created the various Dark Magics did. They made something which can only be used for evil. I mean, what does Bellatrix Lestrange talking about The Cruciatus Curse in Book 5 tell you? That it needs you to think about purely nice hopping and fluffy bunnies? Or that you need to want someone to suffer and feel pain when casting it?

The whole nonsense of The Cruciatus Curse, for example, of having a non evil usage? A spell which is designed to be a torture spell is made to be a torture spell.

A bit like how the Levitation Charm is for Levitation instead of a Summoning Charm and a Summoning Charm is for Summoning and not Levitation. Dark Magic exists, because people engineered it to exist.
 
SemiSaneAuthor said:
A bit like how the Levitation Charm is for Levitation instead of a Summoning Charm and a Summoning Charm is for Summoning and not Levitation. Dark Magic exists, because people engineered it to exist.
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Yes, my point exactly; we seem to be arguing past each other somehow?
Every time I see fics bleating about "dark magic" it's treated like there's two kinds of magical energy that are in some sort of tension or competition and poor deluded dark-siders are just addicts who can be cleaned up and set back on their feet with just a little help and a proper diet of good magic. If that's not what you're saying then we have no argument. Or let's say dark "magic" and dark "spells" are not interchangeable at least.
 
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On the topic of dark magic I would say things are murky. There is absolutely dark and light extremes. The problem is the incredibly large and complex grey area between those extremes. For example a cutting charm or curse could be used for anything from killing a man to whittling. In that case intention matters.

I've seen arguments that the killing curse requires you to want someone dead which is not the same as hating someone. Mercy killings are a thing and the killing curse is supposed to be painless. You can also want someone dead because if they are dead they can't kill you, that's not hate, it's self preservation.

On the other hand there is really only one use for a torture curse. And I feel the need to remind everyone Harry and company used two of the three unforgivable curses and amazingly did not turn into monsters that take pleasure in the pain of others. So the rhetoric that they corrupt the people using them needs to be looked at skeptically. Power corrupts all on it's own it doesn't exactly need help when it finds fertile ground.

So, dark magic and light magic are things we can all hopefully agree exist but lets try and keep in mind that Rowling did a shit job of worldbuilding and left an incredibly large and murky gray area that we all need to navigate.
 
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I feel like simply destroying all information about Horcruxes is merely punting the problem down the road for when it is inevitably reinvented by the next Dark Lord to spring up. It's a magical case of kicking the can down the road.

Much like Dementors have the Patronus Charm explicitly designed to counter them, it sounds like the best idea is that after Voldemort and his Horcruxes are dealt with, for there to be a considerable amount of resources spent into researching a spell or a group of spells that could then be used to counter a Horcrux user directly. A spell that could forcibly bind the shattered pieces of a soul back together? A spell that could be used to divine where all the Horcruxes/pieces of the soul are? A soul-version of obliviate to make the horcrux have no memories of the Dark Lord that created it?

Magic in Harry Potter is a field of study after all, so creating new spells to solve new problems should be doable. I feel like there's plenty of magical R&D that could be done when the crisis is over to make future repeats much less problematic. You just need someone to keep the Ministry of Magic from getting complacent about the way of things.

On another note, I was looking through the Potter Wiki for Insect related spells, and found this gem: The Insect Hex. Now, how would Taylor's powers interact with that?
 
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SemiSaneAuthor said:
"Bellatrix Lestrange making a Horcrux,"
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Counterpoint: How?

If the information on how to actually do so is kept secret, what the fuck does it matter if she knows it's a thing that can theoretically be done? Voldemort won't tell her how to do so.

If the only information publicly available on horcruxes is "you murder someone and rip off a piece of your soul, then stuff into something and then you won't be able to pass on" explain how that leads into Bellatrix making a horcrux when she couldn't before?

The only way she would be able to is if she already had a way to obtain that information, in which case keeping the information from the public doesn't do shit to prevent her.

All it does is prevent everyone else from being able to figure out what she did and how to undo it to get rid of her.

Congratulation, making the basic information on what horcruxes are a secret has made Bellatrix Lestrange immortal, as opposed to merely persistent.
 
I have always enjoyed the Dark Magic is magic which by intent and act causing another pain.

ie: A cutting charm can cut paper, stone, flesh, anything. It just cuts.
A dark cutting charm can only cut living flesh and spreads a nercotizing and paralytic effect from the edges of the laceration and cannot be healed by normal means.

Both have combat applications, one is intended to cause the target pain and suffering as part of its explicit function.
 
I'm pretty dang sure that trying to categorize/define Dark Magic (with the capital letters) is completely off topic to the story. Until the author decides to define/categorize Dark Magic in the story, lets just stop this discussion. Considering the fact that Rowling just made Dark Magic = Evil, trying to provide more definition beyond that falls into fanon/make believe. So please stop.
 
Fencer said:
Or you could do the fun explanation where the ritual has been invented, purged and then rediscovered multiple times throughout history and across nations, also added fun if it is one of a few different but similar methods.
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Which makes way more sense than the idea that the society that was obsessed with the soul not coming up with something like that.
 
Shadow Archon said:
I feel like simply destroying all information about Horcruxes is merely punting the problem down the road for when it is inevitably reinvented by the next Dark Lord to spring up. It's a magical case of kicking the can down the road.
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Dumbles has this very naive thought that if the information had not been in the book in the restricted section that Tom wouldn't have fallen, (or would have at least been easier to stop) and he's partially right, it wouldn't have been as EASY for Tom to make himself semi-unstoppable. The problem is that he would likely have found another way or reinvented the proverbial wheel
 
FullNothingness said:
Maybe the world does have a fair number of old monsters still around? Because one of the main disadvantages of hocruxes is that resurrection is not automatic. If no one shows up to help you you may end up continuing to exist in spirit form without a realistic chance to regain a body. Especially if the disembodied spirit is vulnerable to being bound or damaged to keep it from being able to take action itself. They'd be around until someone found and destroyed their hocrux even if they'd by that point probably rather wouldn't be.
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I recall some fanfic pointing out that we would have been overrun with a plague of immortal dark wizards if it was that easy, so instead by default you have to have your horcrux leech onto some source of powerful magic to keep it going, which is why Voldemort used the Founders artifacts and a snake he could constantly juice up with his own magic rather than random rocks somewhere in the ocean. Would make them easier to track down, esp. with the professional magical-house-breaker-into-guy that is Bill.
 
parnary said:
No, but a thousand year old basilisk might be.
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The diary was in contact with that thousand year old basilisk for maybe three years total, intermittently, over it's 50 year existence.

(also the diary's creation as a horcrux has never made sense. It had access to magical memories from events after the death of Myrtle Warren, who, by the way, was an accidental death. There is no possible way that Tom Riddle, fifth year who had no experience or criminal backing beyond "sociopath" manipulated Myrtle to be standing right in front of the entrance to the chamber so that he could send the Basilisk to kill her, as part of testing out the Horcrux ritual. That plan has way too many points of failure. But, Tom had to have made a Horcrux by the next year when he had that conversation with Slughorn about making more, and Dumbledore was supposedly keeping track of Tom so he didn't murder anyone between Myrtle and Tom Riddle Sr. The timing has never lined up, is all I'm saying).
 
sunsunsunsunsun said:
But, Tom had to have made a Horcrux by the next year when he had that conversation with Slughorn about making more, and Dumbledore was supposedly keeping track of Tom so he didn't murder anyone between Myrtle and Tom Riddle Sr. The timing has never lined up, is all I'm saying).
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Where exactly does Rowling say you need to make a Horcrux right after murdering someone, murder damages the soul in the HP universe. We don't know if the soul can heal from that, but even if it can, how long does it take to heal, and how does it heal? We know an act of Remorse could bring the soul back together if you make a Horcrux, so if you feel remorse and guilt over a murder maybe that would heal the soul.

But as it was Tom Marvolo "Evil-from-The-Beginning" Riddle, I'd doubt if the soul can heal with whatever process does healing that Voldemort would have it in him to do so.
 
I figured he grabbed the diary in a hurry after aiming the basilisk at Myrtle, his preparations were still half-complete so he scrambled after having killed Myrtle because she was in the wrong place and time, would have spotted something he wanted kept secret.
 
parnary said:
I recall some fanfic pointing out that we would have been overrun with a plague of immortal dark wizards if it was that easy, so instead by default you have to have your horcrux leech onto some source of powerful magic to keep it going, which is why Voldemort used the Founders artifacts and a snake he could constantly juice up with his own magic rather than random rocks somewhere in the ocean. Would make them easier to track down, esp. with the professional magical-house-breaker-into-guy that is Bill.
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I also remember a similar situation in another fic, only it was explained that a Soul Fragment would eventually go insane and start working against the original soul. The example given was an Egyptian Dark Lord who made his cat into a Horcrux, but the soul fragment eventually went insane, started believing that it was the real one, and launched a War that saw the Dark Lord's realm be destroyed.
 
Code-Perseus said:
I also remember a similar situation in another fic, only it was explained that a Soul Fragment would eventually go insane and start working against the original soul. The example given was an Egyptian Dark Lord who made his cat into a Horcrux, but the soul fragment eventually went insane, started believing that it was the real one, and launched a War that saw the Dark Lord's realm be destroyed.
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It was probably just a normal cat and the dark lord was embarrassed that this perfectly average feline managed to upstage him.

Cats are crafty psychosis incarnate, after all. And wizards are stupid.
 
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Eman Resu said:
You can't be surprised by poor world building from someone that can't tell a brownie from an elf or a kobold from a goblin.
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Assuming you don't mean the foodstuff... :)

Brownie is a sort of elf, or elven being, by some definitions... Also, goblin is often a broad grouping, rather than a specific sort of being, just like troll is a pretty wide Scandinavian grouping. Kobold is pretty wide, too...

Mythology gets really messy, when you consider how it changes over time, and by location. Most authors 'crystalise' it into more precise definitions in their world-building, which is often quite a reasonable approach. Also, DnD really messed with a lot of things 'looted' from mythology, and that's caused loadsa confusion. What Tolkein did also confused many.

So, JKR definitions? Not unreasonable...

Now, Taylor has a funny definition of 'bugs'. Basically, it's what QA will let her get away with. :)
 
Code-Perseus said:
I also remember a similar situation in another fic, only it was explained that a Soul Fragment would eventually go insane and start working against the original soul. The example given was an Egyptian Dark Lord who made his cat into a Horcrux, but the soul fragment eventually went insane, started believing that it was the real one, and launched a War that saw the Dark Lord's realm be destroyed.
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My personal theory is that Horcruxes, alongside the primary soul of the wizard who created it, slowly but surely deteriorate, essentially "rotting" until all that's left is immortality magic animated by a barely functioning chip of a soul, devouring both the wizard and the horcrux/horcruxes in a process similar to an Obscurial. Which, in the end, produces a Dementor, one per Horcrux plus the Wizard themselves.
 
sunsunsunsunsun said:
That plan has way too many points of failure.
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I think all you really need to make it reliable is some kind of compulsion charm to get Myrtle to that place at that time.

I like the idea (which I think originates from HPMoR) that the Killing Curse (and the other Unforgivables) are banned because they go through magical shields, and also most physical objects--if you cast a Killing Curse and miss, it will e.g. go through a dozen walls the exit the building, and keep going until it hits something with a soul, e.g. a muggle. To block it, a physical object needs to be really, really seriously enchanted to the point that it is dense enough in the soul "register", like Hogwarts or Dumbledore's golems.

I also like the idea that Unforgivables are banned because the definition of Dark Magic is "what the Ministry says is Dark" which heavily depends on the existence of a legitimate use, and the Unforgivables have no legitimate uses because for every potential viable legal application there is a spell which is easier and does that better, and doesn't also go through shields and walls or ignore most means of being dispelled. Like an overpowered sleeping curse (for painless death), or a dedicated anti-Dragon charm, or compulsion charms, or a nervous system stimulation charm.

(I also like the idea that the reason that the Killing Curse can directly affect the soul is that it rips off and throws a piece of the caster's soul, and the murder doesn't damage the soul, using the Killing Curse does, but all of their tests were confounded by the murderers they checked all being killing curse maniacs, and the control group never using it. With a Horcrux needing a ritual either way, but using a Killing Curse making it easier.)
 
Darth Bayes said:
(I also like the idea that the reason that the Killing Curse can directly affect the soul is that it rips off and throws a piece of the caster's soul, and the murder doesn't damage the soul, using the Killing Curse does, but all of their tests were confounded by the murderers they checked all being killing curse maniacs, and the control group never using it. With a Horcrux needing a ritual either way, but using a Killing Curse making it easier.)
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That's actually an interpretation I thought of a while ago while daydreaming a few potential fanfic ideas. The basic theory of the Killing Curse being that it shaves away a splinter of the caster's soul, wraps it up in some truly nasty magic, then fires it like a bullet. The reason it causes problems for the caster is because it abrades the soul away with each use, resulting in a variety of unpleasant symptoms, such as insanity, loss of morals, and a pretty severe risk of brain death if someone really overuses it.
 
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Darth Bayes said:
I think all you really need to make it reliable is some kind of compulsion charm to get Myrtle to that place at that time.
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Please name one actual canon compulsion charm, and then explain why it wouldn't be lumped with the Imperius Curse. Compulsion charms are fanon. If they existed and were legal, then why would Draco use the Imperius in book 6?

If Tom Riddle/Voldemort wants something like that then he'll just cast an Imperius and be done with it.
 
SemiSaneAuthor said:
Please name one actual canon compulsion charm, and then explain why it wouldn't be lumped with the Imperius Curse. Compulsion charms are fanon. If they existed and were legal, then why would Draco use the Imperius in book 6?

If Tom Riddle/Voldemort wants something like that then he'll just cast an Imperius and be done with it.
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If we really want to stretch the definition of such things, then literally any spell that causes the target to behave in an abnormal fashion would technically be a "Compulsion charm", seeing as you are using magic to compel someone to act in a certain way. And example would be the Cheering Charm, which forces the target to become happy even if they don't want to be.
 
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