Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Artificial diamonds are frankly better in all ways to natural diamonds. The only reason natural diamonds are worth anything is massive PR bullshit campaign.
Hole in the ground =/= diamond mine.
Seriously, you have access to Google. Look up imagery results for diamond mines. Here's one from Sierra Leone
Source is Alamy said:
Thats one example of what a "hole in the ground" looks like: Koidu mine, Sierra Leone. Those little toys? Trucks.
Not to mention that the local people who live in the area, as well as the government, will probably have opinions if you start excavating freaking pits in the ground and leaving them open.
Nor is Molly onboard with wrecking shit to no purpose.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
And we are claiming a much much smaller mine. Honestly there is no disputing the claim that the diamonds were only under few shovel fulls of dirt because that has in fact happened. I really don't get how you can apply such different standards needed to investigate the two options and apply the higher standard to the option we have been told by our finance adviser should attract less attention.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[x]Null
Ours actually does for the first two ... we just assemble the industrial equipment on-the-spot.
On the other hand, in extremis there's always the option to shrug and go "well, can't say I didn't try to save you the nightmares of figuring out your paperwork for this Mr. inspector" and then demonstrating our process.
Though really by that point it's probably more an FBI probe for how you're getting those diamonds you're fencing
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
If it helps people decide, people seem to have forgotten that we only get full Crafting dots within our specialty, -1 dots in adjacent specialties, and -2 dots everywhere else. And we can't Stunt on routine things, like diamonds will be for us after this run. So, since diamonds are nothing like cars, and therefore not anywhere near adjacent to our Mechanics Craft specialty, we'll only be rolling 12 dice for our normal diamond making at DC3, and need 10+ successes to pass for natural, even with maximum CCC and WHWH cheese. We're going to have to throw away more than half of our batches if we go the mining route.
Seriously, it's not a good option for us. Not without buying either a relevant Craft specialty or more dots. Just go for the artificial.
Seriously, it's not a good option for us. Not without buying either a relevant Craft specialty or more dots. Just go for the artificial.
:sigh:
Respectfully, you havent actually bothered to look up the imagery.
Do you know what smaller diamond mines look like?
I could go on.
This is mostly Sierra Leone, with one picture from the Congo. Even the artisanal operations with hand tools are large operations that tear up significant amounts of soil and involve hundreds of people and millions of gallons of water.
This is not something you can hide from even an inspection of Google Earth, let alone someone who actually buys commercial satellite imagery for $10k. Or spends $2000 on a roundtrip flight ticket to subsaharan Africa and another $1000 on local expenses to visit the site.
Or just wires $500 to a local to go down and take photographs of the location and send them by UPS.
This is not the 1960s any longer.
Even in the pre-Twitter, pre-Facebook days of 2006 its a trivial affair to confirm.
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JayTar
Idea briefcase
Well, Thomas is going to be heading there in person right? How hard would it be for him to just, set up a very small mining operation? Bonus points if the mining operation actually has enough output to pay operating costs. But if it's small and done with just hand tools the costs should be trivial enough.
Seems like he could handle things well enough for it to stand up to causal, and somewhat less then causal inspection.
All of this assumes that someone is going to be investigating us in the first place too. Which Thomas doesn't think is very likely to happen anyway.
Not selling "natural" diamonds is going to cut into our profit margin too.
Seems like he could handle things well enough for it to stand up to causal, and somewhat less then causal inspection.
All of this assumes that someone is going to be investigating us in the first place too. Which Thomas doesn't think is very likely to happen anyway.
Not selling "natural" diamonds is going to cut into our profit margin too.
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1)What are they digging for?
If there's no profit, you have to be paying locals to just dig holes in the ground. Why?
Anyone who bothers to spend thirty minutes in a local bar buying a round of drinks will have the localss tell them all about it.
2)The local government probably has opinions about random large excavations. So might some of the locals.
3)Mining has costs. Land erosion. Water consumption and pollution. Habitat loss for animals. Just loss of beauty.
Are you going to just ruin the local landscape in order to attempt to sell a story that wont hold up to sustained scrutiny anyway?
Never mind the social consequences.
I dont think Molly would consider that ethical. She's not a Captain Planet villain, even if she could cosplay as one.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
What's on my mind is whether or not Thomas endorses the Africa plan, and whether or not he knows what he's doing if he does.
JayTar
Idea briefcase
Having to interview a bunch of locals who may not even speak the same language as you is a significantly higher bar of entry then "Just check google maps" or even "Take a plane trip to the other side of the world". Especially if the region doesn't have good transportation.
You know what has no profit? Investigating random minor diamond mining operations.
The plan already includes Thomas heading there in person. I don't think anyone is going to be objecting to some planned small excavations. Especially if it gets them money.
It's not like we are going to be staring a major industrial mining operation here. So concerns about land erosion or like are incredibly premature.
And if we really want to, we could use the crown to scan the property listings for unclaimed mineral wealth instead of magical activity.
This is all already down a big hypothetical anyway. Thomas doesn't think anyone is going to investigate much in the first place and I'm willing to trust him. This is all just a legal cover. There are a hundred and one shady businesses out there. The fact that we are actually showing up with the diamonds and not ripping people off should put us well ahead of the competition.
On the other hand an artificial diamond creation business is both far more notable, and far easier to investigate by simple merit of being more nearby. Anyone who is willing to go to the other side of the world to try to find a specific hole in the ground and interview a bunch of locals could find suspicious things about us far closer to home.
Where are the Very advanced and expensive machines? Laboratory grade reagents? Property for laboratory space? Commercial electricity cost?
All far harder to fake then a plot of dirt on the other side of the world.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Thomas could just buy a played out worthless mine. Then claim to have found diamonds there. He could even have found them personally uncut diamonds are just rocks.
- Location
- Germany
Any inspection of our artificial-diamond-facility will obviously show nothing of relevance, making inspectors assume we are somehow scamming or smuggling, or whatever.
But as long as we pay our taxes and don't damage the environment or have obvious industrial hazards around on everything it seems unlikely that they can press the issue too hard.
But as long as we pay our taxes and don't damage the environment or have obvious industrial hazards around on everything it seems unlikely that they can press the issue too hard.
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
The thing that convinced me to go company is that we can say even those diamonds that can pass as real are artificial but not the other way around.
Especially if they come in custom shapes and sizes.
Not so with ghe mine.
There is always going to be pros and cons and the cons on real like diamonds is that they may suspect us of smuggling them in but custom shapes should fix that.
Especially if they come in custom shapes and sizes.
Not so with ghe mine.
There is always going to be pros and cons and the cons on real like diamonds is that they may suspect us of smuggling them in but custom shapes should fix that.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well I guess we have a lot of reporters and PIs in our future.
The "innovative startup" opens us to too many investgiations. Both from the government and PIs. Yes, there will be safety inspections. Yes, there will be PIs checking our power bills and finding that no, we aren't actually making anything. Yes, there will be reporterts. Yes, there will be corporate espionage.
A mine in Africa is much harder to investigate, both for the government and private operations, and much easier to defend against investigations.
EDIT:
A mine in Africa is much harder to investigate, both for the government and private operations, and much easier to defend against investigations.
And? What's the rate at which it updates for some outback areas in Africa? I am fairly sure it's longer than once per year.
The issue here is that whatever Thomas buys still has a chance of having magical stuff there. We need to at least know about it, to avoid buying too volatile stuff.
EDIT:
Not... really. No, not at all, actually. Because if you can make that stuff, and if you show that you can make that stuff... Everyone would both want it, and want you dead. That'll be ruining the global diamond trade. The innovative company won't be able to sell "real looking" diamonds if we want to keep this on the down low. Clearly artificial diamonds with cheap process is a big, but ultimately normal thing. Cheap real looking diamonds? That's the stuff that changes the global trade patterns.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
True. There are pros and cons to every approach but this gets our feet wet for when, not if, we start our actual company. It gives us zn idea of what to direct when the stakes are still low enough.
Subsaharan African literacy rates are in the 65%+ range for English or French.
It really isnt especially difficult to get people to talk to you. The more so if you are paying for them to talk to you.
That I can speak from experience, if you'll believe a rando on the Internet.
===
Thats not true. A profitable small diamond mine means there's diamond bearing geography there to be exploited.
Thats why, in all those photos I posted upthread, the small diamond mines came first. Which drew the attention of big diamond companies with surveyors and big plan proposals to the government. Which resulted in big diamond mines.
The only way that doesnt happen is if the locals KNOW there are no diamonds there, and you somehow have the shittons of money to pay them enough to keep their mouths shut when a megacorporation like Anglo-American shows up and starts talking hundreds of millions of dollars worth of mining contracts.
===
The Watsonian explanation is that Thomas can be wrong. Or just without context. Thats why he's supposed to be going.
Its entirely possible to get there and find out that nope, it wont work.
Dude is learning on the job; you expect a couple fumbles.
===
An artificial diamond business has no obligations to reveal their process to anyone.
And like I've said previously, on due consideration Id rather deal with the regulators and local journalists in the US, than with the diplomats and spies of every major economy with interests in Africa, as well as the local government of the African nation.
===
I mean, mines get inspections from local regulators. Pay for mining permits. Employ people.
Pay export duty from the country of manufacture. Are subject to local regulations.
Hell, most African countries I know hew to the principle that mines are property of the government; if you buy land and there's subsurface mineral deposits of oil or minerals, its not private property, but public. The government can give someone else the permits to mine it, with or without compensation to you.
US rules dont apply.
The more I think of it, the idea you can just fake a plot of dirt, and make tens of millions of it in the modern day.... what happens when it gets back to the local African government that you are claiming to be making a killing off them and they are barely getting a taste? Wont they make a stink?
I mean, to do things legit, let's look at Angola.
Angola, which is a major diamond exporter, charges 30% on diamond mining(25% industrial tax + 5% diamond tax), and thats in addition to the land fees, capital gains tax, personal income tax, stamp duties, social security, and contributions to the Mining Development Fund and Environmental Fund.
Source:
At a glance: mining duties, royalties and taxes in Angola
A concise guide to applicable duties, royalties and taxes for mining activities in Angola.
In total, the estimated tariff on diamonds in Angola in 2018 was 50%. Source:
Diamonds in Angola | OEC
Find the latest exports, imports and tariffs for Diamonds trade in Angola.
oec.world
Botswana takes a 15-25% equity in significant mining operations, and charge 10% royalties on top of that for diamond operations.
Source:
Thats before US Customs and the IRS.
And those are two of the stabler nations in play.
I cant find comprehensive numbers for Sierra Leone or South Africa.
The juice is not worth the squeeze my friend.
To summarize my understanding:
Innovative startup idea:
+ Closer to the truth and requires less lies and crime to work. We aren't lying about the diamonds being artificial. We aren't smuggling them in and out of the country, etc.
+ Somewhat believable. There have been eccentric geniuses in the past and will be in the future, including among teenagers
+ Allows the selling of diamonds that do not pass as natural
+ Gives us a legal identity to do strange high tech stuff with in the future. Like, when we get our kingdom, and it has magically resistant CPUs that are forty years into the future compared to what Intel has, or cybernetic implants with tactile feedback, the hightech startup gives us a good background to start exporting those. Same with when / if we start commercializing cyberdevils.
- Does not allow to sell us diamonds that look natural. Any sale of diamonds marked "artficial" that can pass as natural will explode the market, cause federal investigations and will make De Beers send assassins after us, possibly supernatural ones. They will be making us offers no mortal can turn down. They will kidnap our family to blackmail us. They will throw federal government at us. They will frame us for murder, drugs, prostitution and international terrorism. Everything and anything to shut us down.
- Is easier to investigate, and demonstrate to be false. Anyone interested will be able to easily tell that we have no actual manufacturing at all. Unless we invest into actually making a laboratory to make diamonds in, with mundane-ish equipment, this will be discovered almost immediately when anyone investigates.
- Puts more attention to Molly. Unlike the mine, this can't be done entirely in Thomas's name. This will have an effect on Molly's future. For the simplest example - her college admission. Molly the middling student with some money pursuing political sciences is one thing. Molly the genius with a startup to her name, is a different one.
- Lower profit per diamond
Essentially the startup idea makes Molly Elon Musk. Like, the parallels would be very visible. That's an interesting idea, and not one I directly oppose, really. But it has to be recognized.
The mine idea:
+ Much harder to investigate, both by private entities and by the government. In fact, the probability of government inspection is probably close to zero.
+ Puts less attention to Molly, if done in Thomas's name
+ Higher profit per diamond
+ (in my opinion) a possibility to play factorio with our land plot, if it has anything magical there. Potentially a possiblity to take over an african country, if we pursue that path
- Does not allow sale of artificial-looking diamonds. That would require additional setup
- Involves more lies and fraud
- Higher possiblity of needing to physically defend our land there
On the balance, both options are viable. I still believe that the mine is a better idea.
Innovative startup idea:
+ Closer to the truth and requires less lies and crime to work. We aren't lying about the diamonds being artificial. We aren't smuggling them in and out of the country, etc.
+ Somewhat believable. There have been eccentric geniuses in the past and will be in the future, including among teenagers
+ Allows the selling of diamonds that do not pass as natural
+ Gives us a legal identity to do strange high tech stuff with in the future. Like, when we get our kingdom, and it has magically resistant CPUs that are forty years into the future compared to what Intel has, or cybernetic implants with tactile feedback, the hightech startup gives us a good background to start exporting those. Same with when / if we start commercializing cyberdevils.
- Does not allow to sell us diamonds that look natural. Any sale of diamonds marked "artficial" that can pass as natural will explode the market, cause federal investigations and will make De Beers send assassins after us, possibly supernatural ones. They will be making us offers no mortal can turn down. They will kidnap our family to blackmail us. They will throw federal government at us. They will frame us for murder, drugs, prostitution and international terrorism. Everything and anything to shut us down.
- Is easier to investigate, and demonstrate to be false. Anyone interested will be able to easily tell that we have no actual manufacturing at all. Unless we invest into actually making a laboratory to make diamonds in, with mundane-ish equipment, this will be discovered almost immediately when anyone investigates.
- Puts more attention to Molly. Unlike the mine, this can't be done entirely in Thomas's name. This will have an effect on Molly's future. For the simplest example - her college admission. Molly the middling student with some money pursuing political sciences is one thing. Molly the genius with a startup to her name, is a different one.
- Lower profit per diamond
Essentially the startup idea makes Molly Elon Musk. Like, the parallels would be very visible. That's an interesting idea, and not one I directly oppose, really. But it has to be recognized.
The mine idea:
+ Much harder to investigate, both by private entities and by the government. In fact, the probability of government inspection is probably close to zero.
+ Puts less attention to Molly, if done in Thomas's name
+ Higher profit per diamond
+ (in my opinion) a possibility to play factorio with our land plot, if it has anything magical there. Potentially a possiblity to take over an african country, if we pursue that path
- Does not allow sale of artificial-looking diamonds. That would require additional setup
- Involves more lies and fraud
- Higher possiblity of needing to physically defend our land there
On the balance, both options are viable. I still believe that the mine is a better idea.
No, they won't. You bribe a local clan in power, probably shoot some raiders and put their corpses on display as a sign of intimidation. All it takes is finding a sufficiently dysfunctional state.
Subsaharan African literacy rates are in the 65%+ range for English or French.
It really isnt especially difficult to get people to talk to you. The more so if you are paying for them to talk to you.
That I can speak from experience, if you'll believe a rando on the Internet.
===
Thats not true. A profitable small diamond mine means there's diamond bearing geography there to be exploited.
Thats why, in all those photos I posted upthread, the small diamond mines came first. Which drew the attention of big diamond companies with surveyors and big plan proposals to the government. Which resulted in big diamond mines.
The only way that doesnt happen is if the locals KNOW there are no diamonds there, and you somehow have the shittons of money to pay them enough to keep their mouths shut when a megacorporation like Anglo-American shows up and starts talking hundreds of millions of dollars worth of mining contracts.
===
The Watsonian explanation is that Thomas can be wrong. Or just without context. Thats why he's supposed to be going.
Its entirely possible to get there and find out that nope, it wont work.
Dude is learning on the job; you expect a couple fumbles.
===
An artificial diamond business has no obligations to reveal their process to anyone.
And like I've said previously, on due consideration Id rather deal with the regulators and local journalists in the US, than with the diplomats and spies of every major economy with interests in Africa, as well as the local government of the African nation.
===
I mean, mines get inspections from local regulators. Pay for mining permits. Employ people.
Pay export duty from the country of manufacture. Are subject to local regulations.
Hell, most African countries I know hew to the principle that mines are property of the government; if you buy land and there's subsurface mineral deposits of oil or minerals, its not private property, but public. The government can give someone else the permits to mine it, with or without compensation to you.
US rules dont apply.
The more I think of it, the idea you can just fake a plot of dirt, and make tens of millions of it in the modern day.... what happens when it gets back to the local African government that you are claiming to be making a killing off them and they are barely getting a taste? Wont they make a stink?
I mean, to do things legit, let's look at Angola.
Angola, which is a major diamond exporter, charges 30% on diamond mining(25% industrial tax + 5% diamond tax), and thats in addition to the land fees, capital gains tax, personal income tax, stamp duties, social security, and contributions to the Mining Development Fund and Environmental Fund.
Source:
At a glance: mining duties, royalties and taxes in Angola
A concise guide to applicable duties, royalties and taxes for mining activities in Angola.www.lexology.com
In total, the estimated tariff on diamonds in Angola in 2018 was 50%. Source:
Thats BEFORE US Customs and the IRS.Diamonds in Angola | OEC
Find the latest exports, imports and tariffs for Diamonds trade in Angola.
Botswana takes a 15-25% equity in significant mining operations, and charge 10% royalties on top of that for diamond operations.
Source:
Thats before US Customs and the IRS.
And those are two of the stabler nations in play.
I cant find comprehensive numbers for Sierra Leone or South Africa.
The juice is not worth the squeeze my friend.
Thomas found multiple examples of businesses claiming to own 'African Diamond Mines', many of them not even bothering to name the country in their proportional materials, obvious pyramid schemes driven by the greed of investors. Most of them did not even own a hole in the ground, they just claimed they did and yet the scheme was not uncovered by figuring out there was no mine, but simply because they ran out of investors to put money in and thus money
The process he is thinking of is something like this:
- Get the rights on a cow pasture or something
- Find a government official willing to write that there is totally a diamond mine on that cow pasture
- Let the local people keep using it as they did before
- Get your official looking papers back to the US and claim it as your source of diamonds
The most likely way the scheme unravels is if someone in the US shows up to your 'mine' and starts asking questions and he is counting on simple obscurity and the relatively minor profits to avoid that.
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