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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Jack vile Ripper said:
Abyssal Exalted are the only type of Exalted that can raise their Attributes up to 6, this is done by one of their merits.

Honestly, if it were ANY other Attributes besides Appearance then it'd be pretty powerful alright. But since Appearance is only usable for Seduction (there is only ONE mention of Rolling using Appearance in Dark Ages 20th Anniversary) and since it can't grant us MDV (Defense Values not existing in ExWoD mechanics), it is utterly useless and could never be rolled (I've scoured the ENTIRE 2.5 Exalted Books for any mention of using Appearance in a Roll besides as a Lunar or an Alchemical, and I haven't found a single use for it).
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I could kind of see how one might use high appearance. Something like:

When you first meet someone if you have 3+ Appearance roll Appearance against DC 7. On your first social roll with that person subtract the number of successes from the DC

So you like roll let's say 3d10 get 2 successes

And then when the first roll comes around and it is subterfuge+manipulation to get a secret out of them at DC 7, now that is DC 5. That is pretty strong I know, but it would be for just your first roll because no matter how nice you look people do get used to it.
 
[X] Go to the Council now

I'm... of mixed feelings. Very mixed feelings. But I'll tentatively vote for pulling off the bandage hard and fast.
 
DragonParadox said:
I could kind of see how one might use high appearance. Something like:

When you first meet someone if you have 3+ Appearance roll Appearance against DC 7. On your first social roll with that person subtract the number of successes from the DC

So you like roll let's say 3d10 get 2 successes

And then when the first roll comes around and it is subterfuge+manipulation to get a secret out of them at DC 7, now that is DC 5. That is pretty strong I know, but it would be for just your first roll because no matter how nice you look people do get used to it.
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This is, in fact, how Appearance is used in 2.5. You use this to reduce the enemies' dice pool whenever they are in a Social interaction with you. They will be more pliable to your words if you are more beautiful/handsome than them. And if you have equal or less Appearance score than someone, you'd have no modifiers or have less Dice when trying to speak with then.

Of course, certain Charms protects you from this. Solar Integrity being the main source of inspiration.
 
Jack vile Ripper said:
This is, in fact, how Appearance is used in 2.5. You use this to reduce the enemies' dice pool whenever they are in a Social interaction with you. They will be more pliable to your words if you are more beautiful/handsome than them. And if you have equal or less Appearance score than someone, you'd have less Dice when trying to speak with then.

Of course, certain Charms protects you from this. Solar Integrity being the main source of inspiration.
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I do not think it should be as straight comparison because people do not have a chart for 'pretty' in their head. The dice are meant to simulate that this is very subjective. So someone with appearance 3 could get a- 3 to DCs if they are the ideal for the person on front of them for some reason and someone with 5 could still get 0 successes representing 'they are just not into you'.
 
BigBad said:
Alchemicals can also go above 5. And Exalts aren't the only powerful beings out there. Changelings, Faeries, Werewolves, Vampires, etc. All can hit superhuman levels in certain stats. You think Thomas can't push his Dex to 6 when he's going all-out?
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Vampires can use Blood Buff to raise their Stat for a turn, yes. And it persists for a scene if I'm not mistaken?

Potence, Celerity, Fortitude are also means to modify your current Attribute dots so that they are more higher than what they should've been.
DragonParadox said:
So someone with appearance 3 could get a- 3 to DCs if they are the ideal for the person on front of them for some reason and someone with 5 could still get 0 successes representing 'they are just not into you'.
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In here, I can see that certain people will probably not be able to be affected by our wiles and raw social prowess.

In 2.5 though, Presence and Performance could care less if you have the sexual orientation of a rock. You WILL love them (Eternal Empress of Love Attitude says hi).

Also Social Modifiers can't go above 3 dice (whether it's for adding or reducing dice). Unless you were to have the Merit to raise your Appearance modifer to (+6/-6) Dice. Then any glance you took towards that Exalt could spell your doom.

2.5 Exalted uses a lot of mind-whammy powers.
 
I don't think vampire abilities from VtM are a thing in this story. While DP is using the Infernals from the Exalted vs World of Darkness ebook, they have replaced the World of Darkness with the Dresdenverse. So there are no Kindred or Garou, just Red/Black/White Court vamps and Billy and the Alphas.
 
BigBad said:
I don't think vampire abilities from VtM are a thing in this story. While DP is using the Infernals from the Exalted vs World of Darkness ebook, they have replaced the World of Darkness with the Dresdenverse. So there are no Kindred or Garou, just Red/Black/White Court vamps and Billy and the Alphas.
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Oh, that I know of. I'm just listing off the WoD Vampire Disciplines as an example that the Supernaturals can most definitely raise their Attributes or Abilities above their normal limitations. I'm sure that the Vampires of this world probably would have something of the equivalent (or even greater level than the WoD version).
 
BigBad said:
I don't think vampire abilities from VtM are a thing in this story. While DP is using the Infernals from the Exalted vs World of Darkness ebook, they have replaced the World of Darkness with the Dresdenverse. So there are no Kindred or Garou, just Red/Black/White Court vamps and Billy and the Alphas.
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Yeah, but some of the mechanics would be convenient to steal for this purpose. That blood buff would fit well enough for white court vamps since they have a human baseline and burn power constantly to leave it.

As opposed to red and black court ones who are mostly just creatures cosplaying as humans with varying degrees of success.
 
BronzeTongue said:
As opposed to red and black court ones who are mostly just creatures cosplaying as humans with varying degrees of success.
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I want to meet the Wan Kuei analogue of this world. I'm curious if they actually use that fuckin' Godawful Yin-Yang Chi mechanics as with the Kindred of the East.

Because, holy fuck, playing Wan Kuei is like trying to balance a molten anvil and a freezing bathtub atop your head.
 
Jack vile Ripper said:
I want to meet the Wan Kuei analogue of this world. I'm curious if they actually use that fuckin' Godawful Yin-Yang Chi mechanics as with the Kindred of the East.

Because, holy fuck, playing Wan Kuei is like trying to balance a molten anvil and a freezing bathtub atop your head.
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The advantage of them being NPC is I do not have to worry about their long term well-being, that can be assumed to be handled in the background. I just need to keep them on kilter in the scene.
 
Stat wise dresden vampires...

White court: Top human or slightly above that baseline (except appearance which is probably another dot or two higher), can burn energy (which they in most cases only regain by draining others) to momentarily push much higher, rapidly fix damage, invoke a variety of mind-altering effects, or boost any magic they might have.

Weakness to true positive emotion and little else.

Elders all the same, just much stronger.


Red court: Baseline above human physically, but appearance 0, except they can invoke a flesh mask that makes them their past human app stat. Dont really burn blood actively (at least the average ones), but need it to live. Can heal from almost anything given blood and time, but for most not a combat relevant speeds. Addictive saliva, some can affect mind via gaze. Retain any magic talent.

Weaknesses sunlight, holy/faith, cutting their bellies open.

Elders can use their flesh masks to take any human form, resist their weaknesses, are much stronger and faster, and may heal at somewhat relevant speeds.


Black Court: Extreme strength and speed even in new ones, Little other powers for the weaker. Appearance 0. Need blood to heal but unclear if they can starve. Can be damaged but can stay "alive" trough extreme trauma. Retain any magic talent.

Weaknesses: Sunlight, holy/faith, garlic, running water, need to sleep during day, necromancy.

Older ones can be extremely powerful, have all kinds of special abilities (shapeshifting, mist, mind crush (to make renfields), more), less weaknesses, heal in combat, rapidly create fledglings.
 
The Reds retain magic power, though it is changed in some unspecified way. That is one of the reasons why the war is so hard on the White Council, often their losses are their enemies gains... well that and the Outsiders. Starborn do not grow on trees
 
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Xexilf said:
White court: Top human or slightly above that baseline (except appearance which is probably another dot or two higher), can burn energy (which they in most cases only regain by draining others) to momentarily push much higher, rapidly fix damage, invoke a variety of mind-altering effects, or boost any magic they might have.
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Toreador and Ventrue.
Xexilf said:
Red court: Baseline above human physically, but appearance 0, except they can invoke a flesh mask that makes them their past human app stat. Dont really burn blood actively (at least the average ones), but need it to live. Can heal from almost anything given blood and time, but for most not a combat relevant speeds. Addictive saliva, some can affect mind via gaze. Retain any magic talent.
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Tzimisce with a dash of Tremere.
Xexilf said:
Black Court: Extreme strength and speed even in new ones, Little other powers for the weaker. Appearance 0. Need blood to heal but unclear if they can starve. Can be damaged but can stay "alive" trough extreme trauma. Retain any magic talent.
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Nosferatu and Gargoyle.

Yeah, I think I now have some inkling on how these Vampires work. Even if they're not 1:1.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Doesn't Dresden have Necromancy as a separate magical source of power mortals can draw upon.
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No, it's a skill, a means to use magic that is almost though not always in breach of the Fifth Law... as Sue the Zombie Tyrannosaurus showed. :V

That said there are other sources out there, the hellfire of the Denarians, the rituals of the Outsiders, there are plenty of ways to step beyond the lighted paths and get that little bit of power you are after.... and then a little more.
 
Jack vile Ripper said:
Toreador and Ventrue.

Tzimisce with a dash of Tremere.

Nosferatu and Gargoyle.

Yeah, I think I now have some inkling on how these Vampires work. Even if they're not 1:1.
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Kinda, but theyre far more different than kindred are from each other. Esspecially white and black are really at the extreme edges of vampire types. Whites are living beings (and all the potential weaknesses that comes with that), still half human, and otherwise more human+ (and minus) than a seperate class of things.

Blacks are possibly worse than nosferatu, being actual moving, rotting corpses (though the old ones look more mummified/ancient corpse eventually), that even by the standards of inhuman monsters are evil and WRONG in some ways.

Reds are humans turned into demonic bat people that are good at cosplaying humanity.
 
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I would say the White court would model to having a soul parasite attached to them. Can they even turn people, or do you have to be born. In fact pretty sure it is a big deal in White Court to hide their supernatural nature from their kids. So that when the are of age, they will wind up killing their first lover. Wonder if the trauma would count as a detriment that would be suspended by mercy in service.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
I would say the White court would model to having a soul parasite attached to them. Can they even turn people, or do you have to be born. In fact pretty sure it is a big deal in White Court to hide their supernatural nature from their kids. So that when the are of age, they will wind up killing their first lover. Wonder if the trauma would count as a detriment that would be suspended by mercy in service.
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White Court Vampires can only increase their numbers through birthing new members. That's definitely their single greatest weakness, the difficulty in expanding their forces or replenishing those lost in battle.

As far as weaknesses go, however, it's at least one that cannot be exploited in actual combat, unlike those of the Red and Black Courts.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
I would say the White court would model to having a soul parasite attached to them. Can they even turn people, or do you have to be born. In fact pretty sure it is a big deal in White Court to hide their supernatural nature from their kids. So that when the are of age, they will wind up killing their first lover. Wonder if the trauma would count as a detriment that would be suspended by mercy in service.
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The white court cannot change people, the Hunger is inherited, though it is inactive when they are young. just barely enough power to eke out a bit of the uncanny, the RPG calls them White Court Virgins. We do not really know how the other families do it, but the Raiths to feed on lust have their demon awaken when they have sex for the first time*...and no human can survive that. The vampire does not even know what they are doing until the victim is dead because their family do not tell them what they are. Believe it or not this is not just elder vampires being assholes. There is a catch, for Raith that is love, if the first person they have sex with it someone they truly love (which is not that common with teenagers) then trying to feed kills the demon and they are left human. So their families really do not want them to find love young.

*I think this is where the virgin term comes from though I doubt those who feed on despair or fear have anything to do with sex in their first feeding.

But wait there is more: While no actual human can survive the demon in the absence of true love, there are beings which are not human out there which can take the shape of humans... like say Bigfoot. No really They have a lot of life in them, so if a White Court Virgin takes one of them as a lover they become a vampire, the demon is glutted.... but they just do not kill because they do not take it all, the Hunger is full.
 
DragonParadox said:
The white court cannot change people, the Hunger is inherited, though it is inactive when they are young. just barely enough power to eke out a bit of the uncanny, the RPG calls them White Court Virgins. We do not really know how the other families do it, but the Raiths to feed on lust have their demon awaken when they have sex for the first time*...and no human can survive that. The vampire does not even know what they are doing until the victim is dead because their family do not tell them what they are. Believe it or not this is not just elder vampires being assholes. There is a catch, for Raith that is love, if the first person they have sex with it someone they truly love (which is not that common with teenagers) then trying to feed kills the demon and they are left human. So their families really do not want them to find love young.

*I think this is where the virgin term comes from though I doubt those who feed on despair or fear have anything to do with sex in their first feeding.

But wait there is more: While no actual human can survive the demon in the absence of true love, there are beings which are not human out there which can take the shape of humans... like say Bigfoot. No really They have a lot of life in them, so if a White Court Virgin takes one of them as a lover they become a vampire, the demon is glutted.... but they just do not kill because they do not take it all, the Hunger is full.
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Isn't the family difference mostly cultural? I thought it was implied in one of the scenes in that weird murder cave that they could all feed on the same sets of sensations, but for various reasons had different preferences.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Isn't the family difference mostly cultural? I thought it was implied in one of the scenes in that weird murder cave that they could all feed on the same sets of sensations, but for various reasons had different preferences.
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DragonParadox said:
I to not think we have ever seen Thomas being warded away with hope or courage unlike the Skavis so I don't think so.
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I would guess that whatever emotionally significant act that kickstarts the Hunger is what they must use to feed it afterwards.

If that is the case, the Raiths are probably the least asshole-ish of the White Court variants. Death is death, but there's death by Snu Snu and then there is death induced by fear or despair. Feeding is likely a lot less difficult for all involved as well, not to mention more pleasant.
 
Some neck to neck voting here by the way.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 10, 2022 at 2:03 PM, finished with 59 posts and 11 votes.
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