Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

Those despots also have free will and are free to exercise it. Hell, Red Court was allowed to pass as gods for a long time.

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The Red Court got a couple centuries of dominance over parts of Mexico and Central America. Then they died.

By contrast, the Solar Deliberative lasted for thousands of years over the entirety of Creation.
The Dragonblood Shogunate took over after them and lasted until the Great Contagion and Balorean Crusade.
And even after that, the Empress took over.

There is literally no comparison.

The deliberative might not happen in the way it did in the First Age, but the rule of exalts will happen in any society that is at least somewhat fair and meritocratic. Exalts are simply better than mortal humans by far. Inculding better in administering and ruling other humans. They are also immortal. In the end, you'll end with exalts in all the highest positions of power, be it formal, like presidents, kings and queens, high priests and such, or informal, like being the best and most respected scientists in their fields (where the fields will be as broad as "physics" instead of "particle physics in this specific area"). Due to their longevity and inherent greatness they will be the most respected teachers, the most admired actors, the most renown generals.

People will, under their own free will, no UMI needed, vote them into absolute power.

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We have very different views of how releasing several hundred Celestial Exalts with literally no common ideology into a society with preexisting power structures and supernatural power players would turn out.

And exalts, building on it, will likely advance it farther than thought possible. I expect to see post-fusion power sources, strong AI, regenerative treatments, cybernetics, possibly up to full body replacement, and solar system colonization at most a decade after Black Vault is opened. Possibly starts of proper motonic science. The end state is almost certainly going to be something from Shards of Exalted Dream, and i wouldn't be surprised to see Stellar Intelligences.

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This is not Ex2E Creation.
Exalts are not necessary for the advancement of technology here, so they do not wield the sort of foundational societal power that this monopoly caused in Ex2E.

Furthermore, technological advancement in the Dresdenverse, like in reality, is the work of millions of people stacking effort on each other.No single Exalt can match that. Not all the Celestials in the Vault working together can match that based on the charms and capabilities published in the books.

The First Age of Creation was built on tech inherited from Autobot and the Jadeborn, and the vast bulk of the grunt work was carried by the millions of Dragonbloods and Enlightened mortals around. Solars were essential for the high end stuff, but they needed all those folks for the low end. All those people who did the scut work, all that infrsstructure, dont exist here.

In this universe, Exalts are high end powers. They arent Lords of Creation. The backstory of vanilla ExWoD was that the Infernals tried to rule for a while, got beat down, and their shards buried in the Hells. And only got up when some unwise devils went digging for them and got jacked as guidance systems.

Vanilla ExWoD had DBs around; they did not translate to accelerated tech or even magic development.
That was all Technocracy and mortal work.
I see very little prospect that Celestials will be better in this setting.

Also, there is no indication at the moment that there is a Black Vault with hundreds of Exaltations in this reality anyway.
Let alone Dragonbloods.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Exalted are super powerful, and cannot be anything, but the ruler of mortals. Their inerrant powers and abilities, make it impossible for any other outcome to exist.

 

[Prospalz]

Shih mental techniques

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We'll ask Div once we get to actually learning them. Until then, it is a big "I think you think I think" tug of war that isn't really rooted in anything substantial.

a way to pop the E6 cap

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Aside from trying to leech from a Denarian, we probably could eat the other Hells. It is probably not going to take centuries at this pace of things, DP is pretty generous with xp.

We are sure asf not going beyond E6 during the scope of this game, tho. Elder Essence charms are an absolute nightmare to manage on the QM-side. On the bright side of things, they make for a good epilogue fodder.

Exalted are super powerful, and cannot be anything, but the ruler of mortals. Their inerrant powers and abilities, make it impossible for any other outcome to exist.

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In a setting where locals aren't capable of suppressing Exalts in relative infancy, sure. DF local absolutely could keep the lid on a bunch of babby nerfed ExWoD celestials, though.

 

[firefrog600]

We'll ask Div once we get to actually learning them. Until then, it is a big "I think you think I think" tug of war that isn't really rooted in anything substantial.


Aside from trying to leech from a Denarian, we probably could eat the other Hells. It is probably not going to take centuries at this pace of things, DP is pretty generous with xp.

We are sure asf not going beyond E6 during the scope of this game, tho. Elder Essence charms are an absolute nightmare to manage on the QM-side. On the bright side of things, they make for a good epilogue fodder.


In a setting where locals aren't capable of suppressing Exalts in relative infancy, sure. DF local absolutely could keep the lid on a bunch of babby nerfed ExWoD celestials, though.

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Guns are a pretty big equalizer for at least the first few levels of essence even then if their out of essence guns can still work.

Also honestly unsure we will ever get to essence 6 like for aswah the next big thing was gonna be god making and we were only like a quarter of the way through that. I think it would take a similar if more time to go beyond essence 5 and we aren't exactly updating as much as that quest was.

 

[DragonParadox]

If you guys want to conquer the world you will need a lot more than a Circle made up of...*checks* two exalts, one of them only of Terrestrial powers.

World domination is not really on the horizon is what I'm saying.

 

[firefrog600]

If you guys want to conquer the world you will need a lot more than a Circle made up of...*checks* two exalts, one of them only of Terrestrial powers.

World domination is not really on the horizon is what I'm saying.

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Look even conquering Chicago seems like it'll be very difficult.

 

[Yog]

The Red Court got a couple centuries of dominance over parts of Mexico and Central America. Then they died.

By contrast, the Solar Deliberative lasted for thousands of years over the entirety of Creation.
The Dragonblood Shogunate took over after them and lasted until the Great Contagion and Balorean Crusade.
And even after that, the Empress took over.

There is literally no comparison.

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Your argument was, as I understood it: "White God is pro free will and will directly oppose establishment of empires ruled by immortal god kings". My counter-argument was "Red Court, who have far less claim to being humans with free will allowed to make their choices, and affect others with said choices, was allowed to establish their empire. It stands to reason that celestial exalted community would also not be opposed".

We have very different views of how releasing several hundred Celestial Exalts with literally no common ideology into a society with preexisting power structures and supernatural power players would turn out.

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It would take time, but by sheer evolutionary processes of "natural selection", some sort of common ground will be found between exalted. It's also important to point out that:
1) At least some exalted will be given the exaltation with the clear guiding motiation of "find others, save the world"
2) At least some exalted (specifically Sidereal exalted) will be guided by fate to save the world
3) At least some part of exaltation selection criteria in ExvsWoD is "will use exaltation to save the world". That's the intent of the black vault being released in canon ExvsWoD and it is clearly implied that exaltation being released listened to that intent
4) I do not argue for preparation-less Black Vault opening. Send agents all over the world ready to look for new exalts and approach them on the best possible terms. Game the search engines so when someone searches for "I am glowing gold / silver, what do?", our internet page is the first to pop up. Negotiate with wizards, fae and angels so the new exalt will get visitations directing them to us. Using the crown and investigation, find the best and brightest of humanity and secure their loyalty, both to yourself and each other, before opening the vault to bias the exaltation search pattern.

This is not Ex2E Creation.
Exalts are not necessary for the advancement of technology here, so they do not wield the sort of foundational societal power that this monopoly caused in Ex2E.

Furthermore, technological advancement in the Dresdenverse, like in reality, is the work of millions of people stacking effort on each other.No single Exalt can match that. Not all the Celestials in the Vault working together can match that based on the charms and capabilities published in the books.

The First Age of Creation was built on tech inherited from Autobot and the Jadeborn, and the vast bulk of the grunt work was carried by the millions of Dragonbloods and Enlightened mortals around. Solars were essential for the high end stuff, but they needed all those folks for the low end. All those people who did the scut work, all that infrsstructure, dont exist here.

In this universe, Exalts are high end powers. They arent Lords of Creation. The backstory of vanilla ExWoD was that the Infernals tried to rule for a while, got beat down, and their shards buried in the Hells. And only got up when some unwise devils went digging for them and got jacked as guidance systems.

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We fundamentally see this very differently and won't see eye to eye, given previous dialogs. Suffice to say, based on the ExvsWod rules, and hints dropped, I disagree strongly with your position. I also disagree with your projected impact of exalted appearing. I will not argue this, as this would be useless. I will only point out that at least in terms of scientific advancement, exalts will blow everything out of water, and will upend the road of technological progression. Solars get to access akashic records and retrieve knowledge directly from there. Make people into the paragons of their fields in at most a month (that's how long it takes for a solar to give someone 90 points of experience to spend on the academic abilities and attributes. In a year at most a single academically inclined solar will be running an institution with dedicated stuff that is as smart as humanly possible and perfectly cohesive in their work. They will be building on what is already there, and leapfrogging the progress a lot. I sincerely think that yo are underestimating the effects and powers of exalts in modern society. But it's pointless to argue.

As to whether the black vault exists or not, that's for us to investigate in-character, and I very much want to.

 

[Dheer]

In a setting where locals aren't capable of suppressing Exalts in relative infancy, sure. DF local absolutely could keep the lid on a bunch of babby nerfed ExWoD celestials, though.

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Not for long though honestly. The other main quirk which makes exalted a pain to deal with is their immensely accelerated learning speeds compared to mortals. If I understood correctly for an exalted, learning an entire new language takes about a week for them which is tremendously fast when considering it takes about 2 to 3 months bare minimum or more likely 2 to 3 years to learn the language fluently. And this is a capability which is undiminished still as it is the most basic functioning of the exaltation and has immense impact in the ramifications of dealing with exalts as they snowball fast the longer they live.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I am sorry, you think we a demigod with the ability to get perfect objectivw answers can't have an ability that just numbs the bit that hurt. I feel thats underestimation.

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I wouldn't trust a Ford class aircraft carrier to be an emotional support animal either. The kind of power you're talking about doesn't make you immune to mental issues.

Exalted not being paragons of wisdom and mental stability is the root of something like half of all plots that related to them.

The objectivity of the crown is also irrelevant; object reality isn't a hard counter to psychological issues or implicit human mental foibles.

My point was that "numbing the bit that hurts" as a thing with little to no consequences isn't something that makes sense in the context of a mind. Physical metaphors shouldn't be extended to the point where they undercut the properties of the actual subject they're supposed to represent.

Even setting all that aside, we're talking about a power made by mortals for mortals. It's no more inherently reliable than any other modern technique.

 

[firefrog600]

Not for long though honestly. The other main quirk which makes exalted a pain to deal with is their immensely accelerated learning speeds compared to mortals. If I understood correctly for an exalted, learning an entire new language takes about a week for them which is tremendously fast when considering it takes about 2 to 3 months bare minimum or more likely 2 to 3 years to learn the language fluently. And this is a capability which is undiminished still as it is the most basic functioning of the exaltation and has immense impact in the ramifications of dealing with exalts as they snowball fast the longer they live.

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I'll note yeah also no. The average exalted does not progress like a pc. Molly is a genius by exalted standards given her progression.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I'll note yeah also no. The average exalted does not progress like a pc. Molly is a genius by exalted standards given her progression.

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An exalted can go into a university, and 2 months later walk out more knowledgeable and skilled then everybody at everything. 2 dots in a ablity is what most professional people are, 4 is world famous level. Most abilities don't even have people alive that reach 5 dot level.
5 dots in medicine is you are a doctor of everything, from knee surgeon, to physiologist.

 

[firefrog600]

An exalted can go into a university, and 2 months later walk out more knowledgeable and skilled then everybody at everything. 2 dots in a ablity is what most professional people are, 4 is world famous level. Most abilities don't even have people alive that reach 5 dot level.
5 dots in medicine is you are a doctor of everything, from knee surgeon, to physiologist.

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I mean yeah I'm just saying mollys rate of exp gain is abnormal for the average exalted.

 

[BronzeTongue]

The deliberative might not happen in the way it did in the First Age, but the rule of exalts will happen in any society that is at least somewhat fair and meritocratic.

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There isn't a unified power structure, culture, or set of personal connections to make the exalted look to each other as friends and peers.

Imagine what happens when 5 people in say the balkans from at least that many different ethnic and/or religious backgrounds exalt in roughly the same time period.

"Form a unified government and cooperate for the greater good" isn't in my top ten list of things most likely to happen next.

That's hardly a condition unique to that region of the world either.

The problem isn't necessarily exalts being in charge, it's that it adds more power to divisions and conflicts that already exist.

 

[Prospalz]

Guns are a pretty big equalizer for at least the first few levels of essence even then if their out of essence guns can still work.

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Strictly speaking, if you build for it, Celestials can achieve effective invulnerability to handheld firearms at E1. It doesn't really change the outcome, tho.

On the system level, it isn't +5 Lethal Damage firesticks that are responsible for making sure Exalts don't spiral out of control; it is the effective mystical panopticon a number of high-level factions got over the setting. Theoretical newborn celestial got nowhere to hide in DF.

Progression speed

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Training times are short only with sufficient XP flow to back it up. Observe Molly's progression as an example.

 

[firefrog600]

Strictly speaking, if you build for it, Celestials can achieve effective invulnerability to handheld firearms at E1. It doesn't really change the outcome, tho.

On the system level, it isn't +5 Lethal Damage firesticks that are responsible for making sure Exalts don't spiral out of control; it is the effective mystical panopticon a number of high-level factions got over the setting. Theoretical newborn celestial got nowhere to hide in DF.

Training times are short only with sufficient XP flow to back it up. Observe Molly's progression as an example.

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I mean us theoretically we would be essence 5 or higher by the time this happens if it can happen. Not that anywhere near everyone would work with us at that level of power we definitely can be a leader to a lot of them though.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

"Form a unified government and cooperate for the greater good" isn't in my top ten list of things most likely to happen next.

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9xp for 2 expression dots and the excellency gives us 10 dice for mass social attacks even with Molly's crappy social. Use CCC and write some books, poems and plays, average 5+ successes they are all both world famous, and push a mindset that Molly wants. Figure a year to form a world government.

 

[Prospalz]

I mean us theoretically we would be essence 5 or higher by the time this happens if it can happen.

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I am not sure what specifically you are speaking about.

 

[A_Somebody]

9xp for 2 expression dots and the excellency gives us 10 dice for mass social attacks even with Molly's crappy social. Use CCC and write some books, poems and plays, average 5+ successes they are all both world famous, and push a mindset that Molly wants. Figure a year to form a world government.

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Wat. No I do not think making popular media will lead to world leadership in a year. If that were the case we'd be hailing our overlords the Kardashians or JRR Tolkien, first of his name.

 

[firefrog600]

I am not sure what specifically you are speaking about.

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Hide with us.

 

[BronzeTongue]

9xp for 2 expression dots and the excellency gives us 10 dice for mass social attacks even with Molly's crappy social. Use CCC and write some books, poems and plays, average 5+ successes they are all both world famous, and push a mindset that Molly wants. Figure a year to form a world government.

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The point of that example was on the interactions of other exalts with each other in the wild. Unless we know where they all are in advance that's going to happen.

They, and anyone else who cares too, can spend willpower to ignore social attacks. So we can't just beat people into submission with dice.

Especially since they have competing interests and have to interact with people other than us. Arguments that satisfy one party would enrage another, no matter what you rolled putting lipstick on the pig.

 

[Yog]

I mean yeah I'm just saying mollys rate of exp gain is abnormal for the average exalted.

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A solar with Legendary Scholar's Curriculum can generate 20 XP per week for motral students to spend on "Mental Attributes, Manipulation, and Craft, Academics, Computer, Investigation, Medicine, Occult, Science, or Technology Abilities.". Yes, it can't raise abilities higher than Solar instructors, but in a month and a half (six weeks, 120 xp) it can take a small group of mortal and make them as smart, perceptive, and witty as humanly possible, even starting with people as stupid, unperceptive and witless as possible. XP generation and training times are not exactly limiting, when we are talking at least in decade time's intervals.

There isn't a unified power structure, culture, or set of personal connections to make the exalted look to each other as friends and peers.

Imagine what happens when 5 people in say the balkans from at least that many different ethnic and/or religious backgrounds exalt in roughly the same time period.

"Form a unified government and cooperate for the greater good" isn't in my top ten list of things most likely to happen next.

That's hardly a condition unique to that region of the world either.

The problem isn't necessarily exalts being in charge, it's that it adds more power to divisions and conflicts that already exist.

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We are talking about different time scales. When I said "it's inevitable that exalts will rule the world if they are released" I meant ten to twenty years later, perhaps later. It won't even be violent, not necessarily. It'll go like this: exaltations get released. In a year or so twilight savants will start making nobel level discoveries. A zenith priest will become the Pope. An Eclipse community activist will quickly rise to be a mayor, than a governor, and then the president. A Dawn rebel fighter will win some civil war in Africa. In at least somewhat functioning human society not dedicating active effort to constantly suppressing them, exalts will rise up, buoyed by their excellence. They will meet. Some will cooperate with each other - a mercenary leader guided by a young shamaness he met in the forests of the Amazon. Some will conflict: a biologist genius clashing with a creationist evangelist and together searching for the origin of the human species, a legendary assassin going after an over-ambitious politician. Over the course of time, those that cooperate with each other, will find their combined efforts to be more than the sum of their parts. Those hostile to everyone else, rabid dogs incapable of behaving, will eventually be killed, their exaltations seeking new hosts in the world where cooperative networks of exalts are already established. Some time since, you'll find yourself in a world, where exalted of various kinds are in position of powers and are having to share the world. And sharing the world is cooperating. Especially once they discover the Outer Gates and other outside threats to humanity.

9xp for 2 expression dots and the excellency gives us 10 dice for mass social attacks even with Molly's crappy social. Use CCC and write some books, poems and plays, average 5+ successes they are all both world famous, and push a mindset that Molly wants. Figure a year to form a world government.

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Ten to half a century due to social inertia, but yes, essentially. Unless constant efforts are taken to constantly suppress exalts (and that didn't even work in Creation where other exatls tried to do it), eventually exalts just being exalts will be the ones shaping the mortal world.

EDIT:

The point of that example was on the interactions of other exalts with each other in the wild. Unless we know where they all are in advance that's going to happen.

They, and anyone else who cares too, can spend willpower to ignore social attacks. So we can't just beat people into submission with dice.

Especially since they have competing interests and have to interact with people other than us. Arguments that satisfy one party would enrage another, no matter what you rolled putting lipstick on the pig.

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We don't need all. We don't even need majority. Plurality and time would do.

 

[BronzeTongue]

We are talking about different time scales. When I said "it's inevitable that exalts will rule the world if they are released" I meant ten to twenty years later, perhaps later. It won't even be violent, not necessarily. It'll go like this: exaltations get released. In a year or so twilight savants will start making nobel level discoveries. A zenith priest will become the Pope. An Eclipse community activist will quickly rise to be a mayor, than a governor, and then the president. A Dawn rebel fighter will win some civil war in Africa. In at least somewhat functioning human society not dedicating active effort to constantly suppressing them, exalts will rise up, buoyed by their excellence. They will meet. Some will cooperate with each other - a mercenary leader guided by a young shamaness he met in the forests of the Amazon. Some will conflict: a biologist genius clashing with a creationist evangelist and together searching for the origin of the human species, a legendary assassin going after an over-ambitious politician. Over the course of time, those that cooperate with each other, will find their combined efforts to be more than the sum of their parts. Those hostile to everyone else, rabid dogs incapable of behaving, will eventually be killed, their exaltations seeking new hosts in the world where cooperative networks of exalts are already established. Some time since, you'll find yourself in a world, where exalted of various kinds are in position of powers and are having to share the world. And sharing the world is cooperating. Especially once they discover the Outer Gates and other outside threats to humanity.

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Or their various factions stabilize out into nations, or simply integrate into existing ones, and the bloody transition period is marked by a higher stakes iteration of a functionally identical status quo.

People won't lose their previous associations on exalting. The assumption should be that people will do what they're doing now with more power, not that they'll wake up to the stupid shit that's been plaguing humanity since we could form communities.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

The point of that example was on the interactions of other exalts with each other in the wild. Unless we know where they all are in advance that's going to happen.

They, and anyone else who cares too, can spend willpower to ignore social attacks. So we can't just beat people into submission with dice.

Especially since they have competing interests and have to interact with people other than us. Arguments that satisfy one party would enrage another, no matter what you rolled putting lipstick on the pig.

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Wild exalted don't matter if their mortal selves have already been social into following Molly's ideals.

Willpower only works if they spend it. Which not is not going to happen generally, they have to actively disagree to spend willpower. And even then you still need willpower to spend. That where expression is so valuable to an Exalted 20+ play, movies, etc, and they don't go away, they continue being their launching their social attacks in perpetuity.

 

[Yog]

Or their various factions stabilize out into nations, or simply integrate into existing ones, and the bloody transition period is marked by a higher stakes iteration of a functionally identical status quo.

People won't lose their previous associations on exalting. The assumption should be that people will do what they're doing now with more power, not that they'll wake up to the stupid shit that's been plaguing humanity since we could form communities.

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Yes. And those nations would form alliances, trade with each other, and interact through various inter-governmental organizations, like a U.N.

Also "it'll just be the same as it is today, nothing will change" is way too pessimistic. More competent rulers are more competent by definition. More advanced societies are more advanced. Modern nation states are not tribes of neolithic age or even kingdoms of middle ages. The stabilized world post Black Vault release will not be the world of today, and I choose to think that it would be better.

It's also likely that the exalts in power will be more cooperative with each other. They'll have a common enemy - Outsiders. And they'll have a point of commonality - their exaltations.

 

[JayTar]

It's a long term goal, but I do like the idea of getting a bunch of Expression dice, combining it with our various difficulty reducers and churning out a bunch of very high quality media. "Take over the world in 1 year" is maybe a bit optimistic, but broad scale social engineering is totally possible. Do what the white court did, but do it far better with more benevolent goals. There already is precedent in this setting.

If we can make an inhumanly good masterwork armor or motorcycle, then we can make an equally good book/movie/anime/tv show.

It could also be a good way to make a ton of money, beyond even what we could get from winning a lottery. (Plus it would be an excellent excuse to lean into Molly's nerd tendencies)