Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Yog]

Counter-counter argument:
The Denarians dont get to act unimpeded in the modern day, and some of them are people like Nicodemus who are literally mortals with free will who are gifted with power by their Fallen partners. The White God is not some algorithm who can be circumvented by One Weird Trick.

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Constructive counter-counter-counter argument:

Spoiler

Marcone, who is a denarian, and was for an unknown amount of time, not only was allowed to become the ruler of Chicago, as recognized by supernatural accords, but also worked together with the Knights, or at least adjacent to them.

EDIT: Also, what do denarians have to do with this argument? The question was "would White God allow for an empire run by supernatural immortal monsters to exist?". The answer is "yes, absolutely, as long as mortals decided to start said empire under their own free will".

 

[Prospalz]

[X] Find out who the people adversely affected by Dreamless Sleep were and see in any of their close family members are willing to talk
-[X] Use the crown on the survivors, or their graves to see what the content of those missing dreams was.

 

[Dheer]

The answer is "yes, absolutely, as long as mortals decided to start said empire under their own free will".

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And even then they cannot do anything even if it is an outside party imposing on Mortal free will so long it is not by direct fallen action. The Red Court Empire which definitely did not have the approval of the White God have being ruling over South America for millennia against the free Will of the mortals. The White God cannot take any actions even against things they deeply disapprove off. Making the question of would they allow redundant.

 

[Artemis1992]

And even then they cannot do anything even if it is an outside party imposing on Mortal free will so long it is not by direct fallen action. The Red Court Empire which definitely did not have the approval of the White God have being ruling over South America for millennia against the free Will of the mortals. The White God cannot take any actions even against things they deeply disapprove off. Making the question of would they allow redundant.

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Centuries most likely.

God works in mysterious ways and the empire did ultimatly end.

But then again, all empires do.

 

[Dheer]

Centuries most likely.

God works in mysterious ways and the empire did ultimatly end.

But then again, all empires do.

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Unlikely to be centuries, recall that the Red Court have masqueraded as Gods since the times of the Mayans and Incas and have being ruling the land since that time which is far beyond centuries.

As for the Empire collapsing it only collasped due to the intense efforts of other parties who are not beholden to him and sheer luck of the Red court doing actions which made them vulnerable and cannot be attibuted to the White God. Making the claim God works in mysterious ways for the collapse an excuse.

 

[Nevill]

[x] You have a supernatural thread to pull on, see if any of the local supernatural powers know anything about people mucking around with dreams

 

[Yog]

I am sad that we don't have enough technology dots to check if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, or if it was magic in play. Both in what it did, and in "side effects". @DragonParadox would this be a viable addition to the vote:
[] Set Black Rider, since its idle and has internet connection, to checking modern scientific databases and biochemistry textbooks. Try for it to find out if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, both in its effects and side effects, or if something magical was behind the curtain. The formula for the "Dreamless Sleep" should be available since it was registered with the FDA.
?
We might be dealing with another kind of Third Eye drug.

 

[Artemis1992]

I am sad that we don't have enough technology dots to check if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, or if it was magic in play. Both in what it did, and in "side effects". @DragonParadox would this be a viable addition to the vote:
[] Set Black Rider, since its idle and has internet connection, to checking modern scientific databases and biochemistry textbooks. Try for it to find out if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, both in its effects and side effects, or if something magical was behind the curtain. The formula for the "Dreamless Sleep" should be available since it was registered with the FDA.
?
We might be dealing with another kind of Third Eye drug.

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That would propably require something like Medicine 5 to even try guess like that.

You can't just extrapolate from the chemical formula to the effects on the human body trivially, unless the formula is literally for sugar-tablets or something like that.
Otherwise a lot of reasearch wokld be massivly simpler.

 

[DragonParadox]

I am sad that we don't have enough technology dots to check if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, or if it was magic in play. Both in what it did, and in "side effects". @DragonParadox would this be a viable addition to the vote:
[] Set Black Rider, since its idle and has internet connection, to checking modern scientific databases and biochemistry textbooks. Try for it to find out if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, both in its effects and side effects, or if something magical was behind the curtain. The formula for the "Dreamless Sleep" should be available since it was registered with the FDA.
?
We might be dealing with another kind of Third Eye drug.

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You can look though it is likely to be slow, the trouble is you first need to know who is doing sleep research, then read through the public abstracts and only after that start actually hacking into private date bases to see if anyone is looking at a drug that could inhibit dreams.

 

[Yog]

You can look though it is likely to be slow, the trouble is you first need to know who is doing sleep research, then read through the public abstracts and only after that start actually hacking into private date bases to see if anyone is looking at a drug that could inhibit dreams.

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I was thinking of a different algorithm:
1) Look up FDA registration of "Dreamless sleep". If it was a drug, and not "electroshock / acupuncture the patients into dreamless sleep" type of thing, the chemical formula should be in there.
2) Start going through modern biochem textbooks and databases, starting from scientific papers, to see what kind of effect the drug with the dreamless sleep chemical formula should have
3) Pirate some biochemical modeling software, and run the proposed chemical compound against them.

 

[DragonParadox]

I was thinking of a different algorithm:
1) Look up FDA registration of "Dreamless sleep". If it was a drug, and not "electroshock / acupuncture the patients into dreamless sleep" type of thing, the chemical formula should be in there.
2) Start going through modern biochem textbooks and databases, starting from scientific papers, to see what kind of effect the drug with the dreamless sleep chemical formula should have
3) Pirate some biochemical modeling software, and run the proposed chemical compound against them.

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Dreamless sleep itself is not on any public site, it is barely mentioned in internal FDA digital files. Clive had to pull up actual physical documents to even give you as much as he did. Remember this is 2006 not 2022.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I'm thinking the pill doesn't actually do what it claims, because erasing dreams isn't useful to a supernatural predator.

Mortals don't take the contents of dreams seriously anyway, so hiding them shouldn't help if something is slipping in to torture them in their sleep.

Researching and designing a working product using chemistry or magic would be a sizable investment to put in for a cover against something that shouldn't typically be a problem.

It'd make more sense to me if the pills were something that helped dream predators cross over and reach their targets, or otherwise makes them more vulnerable to predation somehow.

 

[the DragonBard]

[X] Find out who the people adversely affected by Dreamless Sleep were and see in any of their close family members are willing to talk

 

[Yog]

Dreamless sleep itself is not on any public site, it is barely mentioned in internal FDA digital files. Clive had to pull up actual physical documents to even give you as much as he did. Remember this is 2006 not 2022.

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Well, it's not like it costs us anything, so we might as well make it run in the background.

Although - shouldn't the drug formula be public knowledge? In either FDA or patent office documentation? Or have those not been digitized yet?

[X] Find out who the people adversely affected by Dreamless Sleep were and see in any of their close family members are willing to talk
-[X] Use the crown on the survivors, or their graves to see what the content of those missing dreams was
-[X] Set Black Rider, since its idle and has internet connection, to checking modern scientific databases and biochemistry textbooks. Try for it to find out if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, both in its effects and side effects, or if something magical was behind the curtain.

 

[Goldfish]

I'm thinking the pill doesn't actually do what it claims, because erasing dreams isn't useful to a supernatural predator.

Mortals don't take the contents of dreams seriously anyway, so hiding them shouldn't help if something is slipping in to torture them in their sleep.

Researching and designing a working product using chemistry or magic would be a sizable investment to put in for a cover against something that shouldn't typically be a problem.

It'd make more sense to me if the pills were something that helped dream predators cross over and reach their targets, or otherwise makes them more vulnerable to predation somehow.

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That was my guess as well.

It could be something as simple as a sort of supernatural beacon or marker which signals a dream- or sleep-based predator that it's feeding time, or it could actively interfere with the basic defenses of the recipient to make feeding on them easier. Hell, if it's a real overachiever, it could do both.

That kinda fits with the name of the company, too; Pathway Pharmaceuticals. Their purpose could have been to create or mark the path to a sleeping victim. They might have been a bit over ambitious, however, with some 'reach exceeding their grasp' issues due to either the effects of the substance or the results of the feeding. Half a century later, after re-evaluating their approach, Soul's Rest Wellness Center could be an attempt to do the same thing on a smaller, but more easily regulated scale, one which would allow them to cover up any unfortunate incidents under the guise of dementia, death by natural causes, etc.

 

[Artemis1992]

To spin a slightly wilder theory, this might be a strike in the Oblivion War.

If these people were informed about Outsiders in their dreams and then the knowledge hidden until a magical or mundane trigger ( like stopping to take the pills) activated it, then a lot of memetic damage could be done before the Archive or any other power notices.

Hiding the mental virus until the time for mass-action has come.

Of course if that were true they would have been stopped by something 50 years ago.

 

[Goldfish]

Hmm, just had a thought.

Rather than Soul's Rest being another attempt at something nefarious by those responsible for Pathways Pharmaceuticals, it could instead just be the next phase of whatever the Dreamless Sleep drug started. I'd bet an internet cookie that many of the residents who participated in the Dream Sleep testing are now residents of Soul's Rest.

Those people could have been primed for something back in 1953 which is only now getting close to fruition. I wonder if they've been acting as unwitting incubators for the past half century?

 

[DragonParadox]

Well, it's not like it costs us anything, so we might as well make it run in the background.

Although - shouldn't the drug formula be public knowledge? In either FDA or patent office documentation? Or have those not been digitized yet?

[X] Find out who the people adversely affected by Dreamless Sleep were and see in any of their close family members are willing to talk
-[X] Use the crown on the survivors, or their graves to see what the content of those missing dreams was
-[X] Set Black Rider, since its idle and has internet connection, to checking modern scientific databases and biochemistry textbooks. Try for it to find out if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, both in its effects and side effects, or if something magical was behind the curtain.

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It was not digitized, it could simply be that it was also never patented or that the documents did not make the transition yet.

 

[Goldfish]

It was not digitized, it could simply be that it was also never patented or that the documents did not make the transition yet.

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Or there wasn't any real chemical formula associated with it, if Dreamless Sleep was the product of some sort of alchemy or excreted by something supernatural. What might have been on record somewhere could just be a decoy, or complete gibberish that was discarded after review for now making any sense.

 

[Artemis1992]

Or there wasn't any real chemical formula associated with it, if Dreamless Sleep was the product of some sort of alchemy or excreted by something supernatural. What might have been on record somewhere could just be a decoy, or complete gibberish that was discarded after review for now making any sense.

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It must have made sense at the point it was first registered.
Getting medicine lizensed wasn't trivial even in the 50ths, I think.

Though I can't say with certainty in America.

 

[BronzeTongue]

It must have made sense at the point it was first registered.
Getting medicine lizensed wasn't trivial even in the 50ths, I think.

Though I can't say with certainty in America.

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Meth was legal to make and use in the US until sometime in the 70s, so I wouldn't count on it being too closely regulated.

Even discounting that, the FDA isn't the science police. If it isn't obviously poisonous and passes drug trials it isn't their problem if some chemists say it's nonsense, assuming anyone checked.

 

[Goldfish]

It must have made sense at the point it was first registered.
Getting medicine lizensed wasn't trivial even in the 50ths, I think.

Though I can't say with certainty in America.

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I'm not sure about that. If the stuff hadn't been patented yet, likely because Pathways never intended for it to be, or because it was still in an early testing phase, they might not have needed to share that kind of information yet. And even if they were required to, nothing says a bit of magical mindfuckery couldn't have been done to convince regulators that everything was on the up and up, or a formula could have been submitted that just didn't do anything beyond look roughly legitimate. It's not like the FDA would have tried to synthesize the stuff and run their own trials just to verify if it worked.

 

[Yog]

Hmm, just had a thought.

Rather than Soul's Rest being another attempt at something nefarious by those responsible for Pathways Pharmaceuticals, it could instead just be the next phase of whatever the Dreamless Sleep drug started. I'd bet an internet cookie that many of the residents who participated in the Dream Sleep testing are now residents of Soul's Rest.

Those people could have been primed for something back in 1953 which is only now getting close to fruition. I wonder if they've been acting as unwitting incubators for the past half century?

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Oh, that's an interesting theory. I'll add this to the vote


[X] Find out who the people adversely affected by Dreamless Sleep were and see in any of their close family members are willing to talk
-[X] Use the crown on the survivors, or their graves to see what the content of those missing dreams was
-[X] Set Black Rider, since its idle and has internet connection, to checking modern scientific databases and biochemistry textbooks. Try for it to find out if "Dreamless Sleep" could actually work scientifically, both in its effects and side effects, or if something magical was behind the curtain.
-[X] Have your cyber-devils cross-reference the list of people who received "Dreamless Sleep" with the lists of people associated with Soul's Rest Wellness Clinic, either as patients or stuff. Also check if children, parents, other relatives or known lovers of those who received "Dreamless Sleep" are associated with Soul's Rest Wellness Clinic.

 

[Goldfish]

Instead of focusing on the people who were adversely affected by the Dreamless Sleep drug, I think we should instead look into who survived the past 53 years and try to find their current locations. That's a lot of time for muggles, after all, and many of them would have died in the intervening years, but a lot of survivors could now be of an age to need the services provided by a place like Soul's Rest. Coincidence? I doubt it.

[X] Find out who participated in the Dreamless Sleep study, then have Clippy track down the locations of those who survived up to this point.
-[X] We'll focus on those still living in the Cleveland area, especially any who just happen to be residents of Soul's Rest.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I still kind of want to steal all their stuff and see who comes looking for it.

Might not be the most cautious approach, but with enough cutouts they wouldn't know us by name or face, and an energetic response would be informative and entertaining.

Outside of this that might be a fun way to make our money instead of just using the lottery. Have cyber devils dig up data on shell companies routed through tax havens by the mundanely corrupt, but hopefully still interesting, targets. Then use the crown to drain their accounts and sell off their properties.

Possibly knocking over their financial schemes in a way that gets them caught by legitimate authorities in the process.