Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- Crossover Fantasy
I'm not entirely certain how the cosmology of the Dresdenverse would react to a Devil Tiger , that triumphant howl would be something worlds shaking, I'm not sure if there's enough power in the world to properly fuel such an ascension or if said ascension would force such power to come into existence.
I suppose the world could be made to be able to do that, an Infernal is still a Solar after all.
I suppose the world could be made to be able to do that, an Infernal is still a Solar after all.
If we want to make an effort out of screwing over the red court we could always try repeated applications of the worst charm in the entire infernal set:
Depending on how broad that is we could do things like curse regional tax collection, diplomatic efforts, and possibly intelligence gathering programs.
Eventually it'll implode as people struggle to get anything done without trying to stake each other with office staplers.
We can just point at things and designate them bureaucratic fusterclucks. For individual offices that's not too bad for a large organization, but we can target projects too.
Depending on how broad that is we could do things like curse regional tax collection, diplomatic efforts, and possibly intelligence gathering programs.
Eventually it'll implode as people struggle to get anything done without trying to stake each other with office staplers.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
I thought they were technically the same, just with new instincts and drives grafted to their soul while unnecessary bits, like their conscience, gets scooped out? Along with the new, monstrous physiology, of course.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
That is, for all intents and purposes, the same damn thing.
"Your memories you keep, emotional context, instincts, drives are added in, and anything that would stop you from being a murderous monster in disguise is surgically stripped out from you."
That's a gross enough change that I'm willing to state that it is--in effect--ego death.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Eh, not that I really disagree, but it can be argued that so long as you maintain continuity of consciousness, you are still you.
After all, there are legitimately people alive IRL who could become a Red Court Vampire and the only real difference in their behavior would be their new preference for a liquid diet. Losing morals doesn't make you a different person, you're just a shittier version of yourself.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
It's the fact that these effects are non-negotiable and happen 100% of the time which is what makes me say 'It's Ego-Death in all but name, even if it isn't just replacing you with a demon using your old memories as a shell".
It is possible--if unlikely--for White Court to be fairly ethical, as we see even in story. Red and Black court are 100% monsters though, no exceptions. Black Court at least is a long investment in time and energy to make a new one, while Red Court can spread at epidemic speeds if they decide to do so.
They stop registering as having mortal souls since you can't soul gaze them, and are allowed to kill them without breaking law one.
White court vampires do the whole demon graft thing and they don't cause enough changes to lose the ability to be subject to a soul gaze.
So either the red court infection knocks the soul out, or mutates it so much that you aren't even remotely human anymore even by standards that consider people who's souls are symbiotically fused with demons as being close enough to count.
At that point I think it's fair to say enough changes have happened to Theseus' ship that it counts as a new vessel if the original soul isn't in fact booted out.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
I had forgotten about the absence of a soul post-Red Court battening. Yeah, that's pretty definitive evidence of death, IMO.
- Pronouns
- male
[X] No, not worth the risk... it might make too much sens
[x] No, not worth the risk... it might make too much sense
I hate to make a complicated conversation even more complicated but the fey also do not have souls, that is what Harry explains is one of the reasons why it is OK to summon, basically compel the Little Folk... but we then find out that many of the fey are changelings i.e. former humans. So OK, that means the fey suffer ego death right? I don't think so, looking at Lilly she looks like she is working off an odd set of rules, but she is not fundamentally inhuman. Hell we find out later in the series that even Mab has some buried squishy human feelings.
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Maybe these beings DO have souls, their souls are just not related to human spiritual structures at all.
The Yozi have lots of soul, but I wouldn't say they have a recognizable Hun or Po soul. Neither do Incarna or gods or elementals. I think maybe Lintha are closest.
As for Dresden stuff...Nevernever contains underworlds/afterlives so the structue or ectoplasm residue itself may have spiritual properties or even be material spirit.
This could mean fey are solid spirit, just locked in a specific alien to human configuration, and a human turned fey is just a human soul locked into this configuration instead.
This is mostly speculation based on what I think could make sense.
The Yozi have lots of soul, but I wouldn't say they have a recognizable Hun or Po soul. Neither do Incarna or gods or elementals. I think maybe Lintha are closest.
As for Dresden stuff...Nevernever contains underworlds/afterlives so the structue or ectoplasm residue itself may have spiritual properties or even be material spirit.
This could mean fey are solid spirit, just locked in a specific alien to human configuration, and a human turned fey is just a human soul locked into this configuration instead.
This is mostly speculation based on what I think could make sense.
Point on the changelings, but the mantles of the faerie courts probably aren't the best evidence for the idea that ceasing to register on a soul gaze is spiritual mutilation.
I mean, isn't it canon that those types of mantles basically slowly reshape their holder until they're basically identical to the "baseline" personality of the mantle in question?
That plus the other more obvious changes seem like a compelling argument that the faerie queens just get a slower version of the same sort of process.
Changlings seem more like a special case to me, since they get to start out as both from the beginning and deliberately choose to embrace one side. As opposed to the effect being something coming from outside the victim's base nature and forcing them to become something else.
Fey pretty clearly lose their free will, they do have a pretty open ended existence mantle bearers aside, but still lacking true free will. And they might be moved by a strong emotion that sometimes flares up, but it is always thou the lens of their existence. Or some lingering though process from being mortal, but their existence trumps. A former human might, still seem human, but that will be worn away is their new nature raises to dominance. They cannot give charity, or do anything without a debt being formed. That more then anything shows they lack souls, or any true free will.
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Verdant Emptiness Endowment does not let you grant free wishes either, but nothing is stopping you from asking for something trivial. False Spring Beckons only works when someone serves you... but you can choose to ask very little of them. A fey who for whatever reason wants to be charitable just picks a price they know will not much trouble their recipient, just as one who wants to be malicious will choose one that is painful. I do not think anyone will argue against the existence of malicious fey after all
Dresden at one point says 'Angels do not have souls' because he has never soulgazed one, to which Bob replies something like 'Are you kidding, they are all soul'. Maybe one size fits all test for soul having is not the best idea.
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Actually the Yozi/Primordial to various Dresden "non-souled" beings comparison is very on point.
Because what is also a characteristic of Yozi? They are defined by, exist by, cannot defy or conceptualize outside of, or change by their own will their Mythos.
These beings are also act as if they were "made out of Mythos", just less world defining and stuff...
Infernals can create Heresy Charms, but...there is a reason they are called Heresy. Mixing Mythos is unthinkable to Yozi, and they can only think of things in these frameworks...
Except maybe Autochton due to his containing "Transgression" but his Voidcancer is price enough.
Edit: Interestingly, Dresden ALSO has an infectious, horrific void disease that lets you act outside your "themes". Nemesis and Voidtech connection possible?
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didn't autocthon change himself to be able to understand mortals?
And I think there were some Primordials who escaped by hiding after the primordial war and reshaped themselves into masters of guerilla warfare. Though I think I heard that from a friend.
Autochton did self lobotomy but his thematic is itself the transcendent craftsmen and transgressing boundaries. Ironically the self-surgery to cross borders is in theme for him.
As for the Aftershock War Primordial, as with all similar events like Yozi, it took trimming their soul hierarchy enough to change, like Primordials to Yozi just...not mutilated.
Spiritual surgery and level of change it implies is questionable that if the same level of change happened to a person, would most people even recogize them as the same.
Edit: Also, I don't think we know what the Mythos of the Aftershock one was. The Ebon Dragon was originally The Dragon's Shadow before Sol existed and he could antithesis him, but he did exist.
It just that he changed a lot, as Opposition is still him just...well, there were some changes if not so drastic.
Edit 2: Most Primordials who became Yozi...mostly...kept some themes but distorted.
Theion King into Malfeas Tyrant.
Cecelyne of Law into...Law but Cece's fucked up version
But some changed so much its barely recognizable imo.
Adrian, The River of All Torments who circled Creation and kept out the Raksha become Adorjan the Silent Wind.
The only commonality I can find is "suffering", specifically inflicting it to letting go of things to not suffer.
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