Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[x] Yog

Honestly @uju32 seems like your bias against him is very strong, from the beginning you didn't like him and argued the darker side of any and all motivations he could have during the whole arc. Even now you continue (according to what I'm sensing from your posts) that he's incompetent for not considering variables he doesn't know, for not fully trusting that Dresden won't call Mab, and for him, an ancient deity, doesn't believing that he is weaker than a young mage after being surprised by a group of strong and ancient necromates who knew his weaknesses and spent I don't know how much time planning his capture.

He may have stayed in town for a few months but I doubt he's done a full and complete psychological survey of Dresden, who he should or should not favor to Winter etc in the event that he's ordered by Mab to go after him. I think his plan was to just hunt down Corpsetaker and then leave for another city as usual.

Calm down.
Dude did a deal with Kemmler. Someone that both Bob and Queen Mab call a monster.
You underestimate the gravity of what that means:
I glowered at Bob, and pulled up my stool to the worktable. I got out a notebook and a pencil. "The question of the hour is, what do you know about something called The Word of Kemmler?"
Bob made a sucking sound through his teeth, which is fairly impressive given that he's got no saliva to work with. Or maybe I'm giving him too much credit. I mean, he can make a B sound with no lips, too. "Can you give me a reference point or anything?"
"Not for certain," I said. "But I have a gut instinct that says it has something to do with necromancy."
Bob made a whistling sound. "I hope not."
"Why?" I asked.
"Because that Kemmler was a certifiable nightmare," Bob said. "I mean, wow. He was sick, Harry. Evil."
That got my attention. Bob the skull was an air spirit, a being that existed in a world of knowledge without morality. He was fairly fuzzy on the whole good-evil conflict, and as a result he had only vague ideas of where lines got drawn. If Bob thought someone was evil, well… Kemmler must have really pushed the envelope.
"What'd he do?" I asked. "What made him so evil?"

"He was best known for World War One," Bob said.
"The whole thing?" I demanded.

"Mostly, yeah," Bob said. "There were about a hundred and fifty years of engineering built into it, and he had his fingers into all kinds of pies. He vanished at the end of hostilities and didn't show up again until he started animating mass graves during World War Two. Went on rampages out in Eastern Europe, where things were pretty much a nightmare even without his help. Nobody is sure how many people he killed."
"Stars and stones," I said. "Why would he do something like that?"
"A wild guess? He was freaky insane. Plus evil."
"You say 'was,'" I said. "Past tense?"
"Very," Bob said. "After what the guy did, the White Council hunted him down and wiped his dusty ass out in 1961."
"You mean the Wardens?"
"I mean the White Council," Bob said. "The Merlin, the whole Senior Council, the brute squad out of Archangel, the Wardens, and every wizard and ally the wizards could get their hands on."
I blinked. "For one man?"
"See above, regarding nightmare," Bob said. "Kemmler was a necromancer, Harry. Power over the dead. He had truck with demons, too, was buddies with most of the vampire Courts, every nasty in Europe, and some of the uglier faeries, too. Plus he had his own little cadre of baby Kemmlers to help him out. Apprentices. And thugs of every description."
"Damn," I said.
"Doubtless he was," Bob said. "They killed him pretty good. A bunch of times. He'd shown up again after the Wardens had killed him early in the nineteenth century, so they were real careful the second time. And good riddance to the psychotic bastard."
I blinked. "You knew him?"
"Didn't I ever tell you?" Bob asked. "He was my owner for about forty years."

I stared. "You worked with this monster?"
"I do what I do," Bob said proudly.
"How did Justin get you, then?"
"Justin DuMorne was a Warden, Harry, back at Kemmler's last stand. He pulled me out of the smoldering ruins of Kemmler's lab. Sort of like when you pulled me out of the smoldering ruins of Justin's lab when you killed him. Circle of life, like that Elton John song."
I felt more than a little tiny bit cold. I chewed on my lip and laid my pencil down. I had the feeling the rest of this conversation was not going to be something I wanted to create a written record of. "So what is the Word of Kemmler, Bob?"
"Not a clue," Bob said.
I glowered. "What do you mean, not a clue? I thought you were his skull Friday."
"Well, yeah," Bob said. His eyelights nickered suddenly, a nervous little dance. "I don't remember very much of it."
I snorted out a laugh. "Bob. You never forget anything."


SNIPPED

I'm sorry, Harry," Bob said. "I tried to tell you."
"I know," I said. "I had no idea."
"Kemmler was bad, Harry," Bob said. "He… he took what I was. And he twisted it. I destroyed most of my memories of my time with him, and I locked away everything I couldn't. Because I didn't want to be like that."
"You won't," I told him quietly. "Now hear this, Bob. I command you never to recover those memories again. Never to let them out again. Never to obey any command to unleash them again. From here on out they sleep with the fishes. Understand me?"
"If I do," Bob said carefully, "I won't be able to do much to help you, Harry. You'll be on your own."
"Let me worry about that," I said. "It's a command, Bob."
The skull let out a slow sigh of relief. "Thank you, Harry."

"Don't mention it," I said. "Literally."
"Right," he said.
"Okay. Let's see," I said. "Can you still remember general information about Kemmler?"
"Nothing you couldn't find in other places. But general knowledge I learned when Justin was with the Wardens, yes."
"All right, then. You-that is, that other you-said that Kemmler had written down his teachings, when I asked him what The Word of Kemmler was. So I figure it's a book."
"Maybe," Bob said. "Council records stated that Kemmler had written three books; The Blood of Kemmler, The Mind of Kemmler, and The Heart of Kemmler."
"He published them?"
"Self- published," Bob said. "He started spreading them around Europe."
"Resulting in what?"
"Way too many penny-ante sorcerers getting their hands on some real necromancy."
I nodded. "What happened?"
"The Wardens put on their own epic production of Fahrenheit 451," Bob said. "They spent about twenty years finding and destroying copies. They think they accounted for all of them."
I whistled. "So if The Word of Kemmler is a fourth manuscript?"
"That could be bad," Bob said.
"Why?"
"Because some of Kemmler's disciples escaped the White Council's dragnet," Bob said. "They're still running around. If they get a new round of necro-at-home lessons to expand their talents, they could use it to do fairly horrible things."
"They're wizards?"
"Black wizards, yes," Bob said.
"How many?"
"Four or five at the most, but the Wardens' information was very sketchy."
"Doesn't sound like anything the Wardens can't handle," I said.
"Unless what's in the fourth book contains the rest of what Kemmler had to teach them," Bob said. "In which case, we might end up with four or five Kemmlers running around."
"Holy crap," I said. I plunked my tired ass down on my stool and rubbed at my head. "And it's no coincidence that it's almost Halloween."
When the spray rolled up over the woman's face, I expected my godmother's blazing wealth of copper and scarlet curls, her wide feline eyes of amber, her features that always made her seem smug and somewhat pleased with herself, in absence of the animation of any other emotion.
Instead I saw a long, pale throat, features of heart-stopping, cold beauty, canted eyes greener than any color to be found in the natural world, and long, silken hair of purest white, bound within a circlet of what looked like rose vines surrounded in gleaming ice, beautiful and brittle and cruel.
Behind me, a deep-throated snarl burst forth from Mouse, back on the shore.
"Greetings, mortal," said the faerie woman. Her voice shook water and earth and sky with subtle power. I felt it resonating through the elements around me as much as heard it.
My mouth went dry and my throat got tight. I leaned on my staff to help me balance as I cast a courtly bow in her direction. "Greetings, Queen Mab. I do beg your pardon. It was not my intention to disturb thee."
My head shifted into panicked, quick thought. Queen Mab had come to me, and that absolutely could not be good. Mab, monarch of the Winter Court of the Sidhe, the Queen of Air and Darkness, was not a very nice person. In fact, she was one of the most feared beings of power you'd find short of archangels and ancient gods. I'd once used my wizard's Sight to look upon Mab as she unveiled her true self in a working of power, and it had come perilously close to driving me insane.
Mab was not some paltry mortal being like Grevane or Cowl or the Corpsetaker. She was far older, far cruder, far more deadly than they could ever be.
And I owed her a favor. Two, to be exact.
She stared at me for a long and silent moment, and I didn't look at her face. Then she let out a quiet laugh and said, "Disturb me? Hardly. I am here only to fulfill the duties I have been obliged to take upon myself. It is no fault of thine that this summons reached mine ears."
I straightened up slowly and avoided her eyes. "I had expected my godmother to come."
Mab smiled. Her teeth were small and white and perfect, her canines delicately sharp. "Alas. The Leanansidhe is tied up at the moment."
I drew in a breath. My godmother was a powerful member of the Winter Court, but she couldn't hold a candle to Mab. If Mab wanted to take Lea down, she certainly could do it-and for some reason the thought spurred on a protective instinct, something that made me irrationally angry. Yes, Lea was hardly a benevolent being in her own right. Yes, she'd tried to enslave me several times in the past several years. But for all of that, she was still my godmother, and the thought of something happening to her angered me. "For what reason have you detained her?"
"Because I do not tolerate challenges to my authority," she said. One pale hand drifted to the hilt of the knife at her belt. "Certain events had convinced your godmother that she was no longer bound by my word and will. She is now learning otherwise."
"What have you done to her?" I asked. Well. It didn't sound like a question so much as a demand.
Mab laughed, and the sound of it came out silvery and smoother than honey. The laugh bounded around the waves and the earth and the winds, clashing against itself in a manner that made the hairs on my neck stand up and my heart race with a sudden apprehension as I felt an odd kind of pressure settle over me, as if I were closed into a small room. I gritted my teeth and waited the laugh out, trying not to show how harshly it had affected me. "She is bound," Mab said. "She is in some discomfort. But she is in no danger from my hand. Once she acknowledges who rules Winter, she will be restored to her station. I can ill afford the loss of so potent a vassal."
"I need to speak to her now," I said.
"Of course," Mab said. "Yet she languishes in the process of enlightenment. Thus am I here to fulfill her obligation to teach and guide you."
I frowned. "You locked her away somewhere, but you're keeping her promises?"
Something cold and haughty flickered through Mab's eyes. "Promises must be kept," she murmured, and the words made wave, wind, and stone tremble. "My vassal's oaths and bargains are binding upon me, so long as I restrain her from fulfilling them."
"Does that mean that you will help me?" I asked.
"It means that I will give you what she might give you," Mab said, "and speak what knowledge she might have spoken to you were she here in flesh, rather than in proxy." She tilted her head slowly to one side. "You know, wizard, that I may speak no word that is untrue. Thus is my word given to you."
I eyed her warily. It was true that the high Sidhe could not speak words that were untrue-but that wasn't the same thing as telling the truth. Most of the Sidhe I had met were past masters of the art of deception, speaking in allusions and riddles and inferences that would undermine the necessary honesty of their words so thoroughly that they might be much stronger lies than if they had simply spoken a direct falsehood. Trusting the word of one of the Sidhe was an enterprise best undertaken with extraordinary caution and exacting care. If I had any choice in the matter, I would avoid it.
But there was nothing I could do but forge ahead. I still had to find out more about what Sergeant Kemmler's Lonely Hearts Club Band was doing in Chicago, and that meant taking the risk of speaking with my godmother. Mab was simply more of the same risk.
A lot more of it.
"I seek knowledge," I said, "about the one known as the Erlking."
Mab arched an eyebrow. "Him," she said. "Yes. Your godmother knows some little of him. What would you know of him?"
"I want to know why all of Kemmler's disciples are grabbing up all the copies of the White Council's book about him."
Nothing that I could imagine would truly rattle Mab's composure, but that sentence apparently came close. Her expression froze, and with it the wind came to a sudden, dead halt. The waves of the shore abruptly stilled to a sheet of glass beneath her feet, dimly reflecting the glow of the city skyline in the distance and the last shreds of purple light in the leaden sky.
"Kemmler's disciples," she said. Her eyes were deeper than the lake she stood upon. "Could it be?"
"Could what be?" I asked.
"The Word," she said. "The Word of Kemmler. Has it been found?"
"Um," I said. "Sort of."

Her delicate white brows rose. "Meaning what, pray tell?"
"Meaning that the book was found," I said. "By a local thief. He tried to sell it to a man named Grevane."
"Kemmler's first student," Mab said. "Did he acquire the book?"
"No," I said. "The thief used mortal technology to conceal the book, in order to prevent Grevane from taking it from him without paying."
"Grevane killed him," Mab guessed.
"And how."
"This mortal ferromancy-technology, you called it. Does it yet conceal the book?"
"Yeah."
"Grevane yet seeks it?"
"Yeah. Him and at least two more. Cowl and the Corpsetaker."
Mab lifted a pale hand and tapped a finger to rich, lovely lips the color of frozen mulberries. Her nails were colored with shining opalescence gorgeous to the eye and distracting as hell. I felt a little dizzy until I forced myself not to look at them. "Dangerous," she mused. "You have fallen among deadly company, mortal. Even the Council fears them."
"You don't say."
Mab narrowed her eyes, and a little smile graced her lips. "Impudent," she said. "It's sweet on you."
"Gosh, that's flattering," I said. "But you haven't told me a thing about why they might be interested in the Erlking."
Mab pursed her lips. "The being you ask me about is to goblins as I am to the Sidhe. A ruler. A master of their kind. Devious, cunning, strong, and swift. He wields dominion over the spirits of fallen hunters."
I frowned. "What kind of spirits?"
"The spirits of those who hunt," Mab said. "The energy of the hunt. Of excitement, hunger, bloodlust. Betimes, the Erlking will call those spirits into the form of the great black hounds, and ride the winds and forests as the Wild Hunt. He carries great power with him as he does. Power that calls to the remnants of hunters now passed on from mortal life."
"You're talking about ghosts," I said. "The spirit of hunters."
"Indeed," Mab said. "Shades that lay in quiet rest, beyond the beck of the mortal pale, will rise up to the night and the stars at the sound of his horn, and join the Hunt."
"Powerful shades," I said quietly.
"Specters most potent," Mab said, nodding, her eyes bright and almost merry as they watched me.
I leaned on my staff, trying to get as much weight as I could off of my injured leg, so that it would stop pounding enough to make me think. "So a gaggle of wizards whose stock in trade is enslaving the dead to their will is interested in a being whose presence calls up powerful spirits they couldn't otherwise reach." I followed the chain of logic from there. "There's something in the book that tells them how to get his attention."
"Darling child," Mab said. "So clever for one so young."
"So what is it?" I asked. "Which part of the book?"
"Your godmother," she said, her smile growing wider, "has no idea."
I ground my teeth together. "But you do?"
"I am the Queen of Air and Darkness, wizard. There is little I do not."

"Will you tell me?"
She touched the tip of her tongue to her lips, as if savoring the taste of the words. "You should know us better than that by now, wizard. Nothing given by one of the Sidhe comes without a price."
My foot hurt. I had to hop a little bit on my good leg when my balance wavered. "Great," I muttered. "What is it you want?"
"You," Mab said, folding her hands primly in front of her. "My offer of Knighthood yet stands open to you."
"What's wrong with the new guy?" I asked, "that you'd dump him for me?"
Mab showed me her teeth again. "I have not yet replaced my current Knight, treacher though he is," she purred.
"He's still alive?" I asked.
"I suppose," Mab said. "Though he very much wishes that he were not. I have taken the time to explain to him at length the error of his ways."
Torture. She'd been torturing him in vengeance for his treachery for more than three years.
I felt a little sick to my stomach.
"If you like, you might consider it an act of mercy," she said. "Accept my offer, and I will forgive your debt to me and answer all your questions freely."
I shuddered. Mab's last Knight had been an abusive, psychotic, drug-addicted, murdering rapist. I was never clear on whether he got the job because of those qualities or whether they had been instilled in him on the job. Either way, the title of Winter Knight was a permanent gig. If I accepted Mab's offer, I'd be doing it for life-though there would, of course, be no promises as to how long that life would be.
"I told you once before," I said, "that I'm not interested."
"Things have changed, wizard," Mab said. "You know the kind of power you face in Kemmler's heirs. As the Winter Knight, you would have strength far outweighing even your own considerable gifts. You would have the wherewithal to face your foes, rather than slinking through the night gathering up whispers to use against them."
"No." I paused and then said, "And no means no."
Mab shrugged one shoulder, a liquid motion that drew my eyes toward the curves of her breasts within the silken gown. "You disappoint me, child. But I can wait. I can wait until the sun burns cold."
Thunder rumbled over the lake. Off in the southwest, lightning leapt from cloud to cloud.
Mab turned her head to watch. "Interesting."
"Uh. What's interesting?"
"Powers at work, preparing the way."
"What is that supposed to mean?" I asked.
"That you have little time," Mab said. She turned to face me again. "I must do what I might to preserve your life. Know this, mortal: Should Kemmler's heirs acquire the knowledge bound within the Word, they will be in a position to gather up such power as the world has not seen in many thousands of years."
"What? How?"

"Kemmler was"-Mab's eyes grew distant, as if in memory- "a madman. A monster. But brilliant. He learned how to bind to his will not only dead flesh, but shades-to rend them asunder and devour them to feed his own power. It was the secret of the strength that allowed him to defy all the White Council together."
I added two and two and got four. "The heirs want to call up the ancient spirits," I breathed. "And then devour them for power."
Mab's deep-green eyes almost seemed to glow with intensity. "Kemmler himself attempted it, but the Council struck him down before he could finish."
I swallowed. "What happens if one of his heirs is able to do it?"
"The heir would gain power such as has not been wielded by mortal hands in the memory of your race," Mab said.
"The Darkhallow," I said. I rubbed at my eyes. "That's what it is. A ritual, tomorrow night. Halloween. They all want to be the one to make themselves into a junior-league god."
"Power is ever sweet, is it not?"
I thought about it some more. I had to worry about more than just Kemmler's cronies. Mavra wanted the Word, too. Hell's bells. If Mavra succeeded in making herself into some kind of dark goddess, there wasn't a chance in hell that she wouldn't obliterate me at the first opportunity. "Can they do it without the Word?"
Mab's mouth curled up in a slow smile. "If they could, why would they seek it so desperately?" The wind began to stir again, and the lake began to resume its ebb and flow. "Beware, wizard. You are engaged in a most deadly game. I should be disappointed were I deprived of your service."
"Then get used to it," I said. "I'm never going to be your knight."
Mab tilted back her head and let out that nerve-searing laughter again. "I have time," she said. "And you mortals find life to be very sweet. Two favors you yet owe me, and make no mistake, I will collect. One day you will kneel at my feet."
The lake suddenly surged, dark waters whirling up in a snake-quick spiral, forming a waterspout that stretched from the lake's surface up out of sight into the darkness above me. The wind howled, driving my balance to one side, so that my wounded leg buckled and I fell to one knee.
Then, as suddenly as it began, the gale was gone. The lake was calm again. The wind sighed mournfully through tree branches sparsely covered in dead leaves. There was no sign of Mab
He not only betrayed his willing agreement with Mab and Winter, he also betrayed his role as a psychopomp/guardian/advocate for the dead in order to cut a deal with someone who was infamous for preying on them, and in so doing, became a knowing accessory to millions of human deaths in WW1 and WW2.

And he betrayed all the other Ankou he led to sign onto Winter as well, bailing on them without so much as a by your leave.
Just as an encore.

The man has betrayed everyone of significance in his life that we know of besides his daughter. Other people have paid for his decisions in blood. And he doesnt have the excuse of having been a foolish or hotheaded young man when doing so either; dude was well over a thousand years old at a minimum when he dealt with Kemmler.

Not to mention that I have significant questions about the wisdom and competence shown in trusting a necromancer for power in a deal made under duress. Because his deal with Kemmler apparently came with a poison pill that has apparently made him the equivalent of Scooby Snacks for any discerning necromancer that has read one of Kemmler's books.

Bias is warranted, until we get some other surety that dude is not just playing us.
And no, his (apparently) loving his daughter doesnt count; lots of people love their children. Denarians Nicodemus Archleone and Polonius Lartessa both love their daughter Deirdre, after all.

I'd certainly have been a lot more suspicious about Old Man Mathews for example, if Dresden hadnt Soulgazed him about his association with the Thule Society.
Mab literally can't have goodwill. She can be very pragmatic though.
Not true.
Mab does goodwill just fine. In the RPG, one of the Neutral Places signed up with the Accords, iirc, is a coffee place that does nothing more than serves her good coffee. Or see how she interacts with MacAnally.
 
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[x] Yog

Honestly @uju32 seems like your bias against him is very strong, from the beginning you didn't like him and argued the darker side of any and all motivations he could have during the whole arc. Even now you continue (according to what I'm sensing from your posts) that he's incompetent for not considering variables he doesn't know, for not fully trusting that Dresden won't call Mab, and for him, an ancient deity, doesn't believing that he is weaker than a young mage after being surprised by a group of strong and ancient necromates who knew his weaknesses and spent I don't know how much time planning his capture.

He may have stayed in town for a few months but I doubt he's done a full and complete psychological survey of Dresden, who he should or should not favor to Winter etc in the event that he's ordered by Mab to go after him. I think his plan was to just hunt down Corpsetaker and then leave for another city as usual.

Calm down.

I get that the "fuck mab" vibe is strong in this thread but dude...
This guy basically shook hands with Histories worst mass murderer. Like, as I recall? Hitler was basically Kemmlers useful idiot.

He's also straight up trying to manipulate us, and even the QM admitted it.

He's not noble or good. He's a really old death god.


My only real sticking point in this whole mess is that Mab wants to drag Lydia into it which- frankly, she hasn't done anything.
 
The man has betrayed everyone of significance in his life that we know of besides his daughter. Other people have paid for his decisions in blood. And he doesnt have the excuse of having been a foolish or hotheaded young man when doing so either; dude was well over a thousand years old at a minimum when he dealt with Kemmler.

Not to mention that I have significant questions about the wisdom and competence shown in trusting a necromancer for power in a deal made under duress. Because his deal with Kemmler apparently came with a poison pill that has apparently made him the equivalent of Scooby Snacks for any discerning necromancer that has read one of Kemmler's books.
I can still kinda take his side.

He was a god. Not a big deal god like Odin or Zeus, but a god in his own right, with a duty he fullfilled and people who worshipped him.
Then Christianity came, his faith more or less died out and he had the choice between becoming a lackey of the Fey (always an important part of his homecountry's mythology, but never something above the likes of him) or ending up like forgotten gods do, be that oblivion or maybe just powerless existance.

So he takes the deal and works not for his own portfolio but on Mab's orders for several centuries.

And then that mortal offers him a chance to be free again, a god in his own right. Sure, he's a monster, but he's also a genius who had already beaten death and broken through some limitations of mortality at that point.

How could you not take that offer?
Freedom, without death or loss of power, at no price to yourself or others in the long run (as far as I can tell Arawn's new goodhood is fuelled by ambient energy and requires no particular service or sacrifice).
All that for just letting one man go, who was hunted by the White Council and some Fey forces anyway. How much damage could one almost-mortal cause anyway?
 
I can still kinda take his side.

He was a god. Not a big deal god like Odin or Zeus, but a god in his own right, with a duty he fullfilled and people who worshipped him.
Then Christianity came, his faith more or less died out and he had the choice between becoming a lackey of the Fey (always an important part of his homecountry's mythology, but never something above the likes of him) or ending up like forgotten gods do, be that oblivion or maybe just powerless existance.

So he takes the deal and works not for his own portfolio but on Mab's orders for several centuries.

And then that mortal offers him a chance to be free again, a god in his own right. Sure, he's a monster, but he's also a genius who had already beaten death and broken through some limitations of mortality at that point.

How could you not take that offer?
Freedom, without death or loss of power, at no price to yourself or others in the long run (as far as I can tell Arawn's new goodhood is fuelled by ambient energy and requires no particular service or sacrifice).
All that for just letting one man go, who was hunted by the White Council and some Fey forces anyway. How much damage could one almost-mortal cause anyway?

So you think the ancient death god is a straight moron then? Because the only reason a noble or good being wouldn't double back to take out kemmler when he started his literal genocide is if he swore to never interfere with him.

I think it's far more likely that he just didn't give a shit. What are mortal deaths to a god of death?
 
So you think the ancient death god is a straight moron then? Because the only reason a noble or good being wouldn't double back to take out kemmler when he started his literal genocide is if he swore to never interfere with him.

I think it's far more likely that he just didn't give a shit. What are mortal deaths to a god of death?
He did hunt Kemmler's heirs at times.
Not just the man himself.

Propably because Kemmler now had his weaknesses and propably would never be cornered by Arawn again.

Also he might not give a shit about people dying, that's definitly an option.
 
From Bob's quote it looks like WW1 was partially his fault, but from WW2 he merely profited, rather than causing it.
150 years of preptime for WW1. Thats longer than any of the proximate actors of those wars were alive.
He was pretty wholly responsible for WW1, and the events of WW1 were setup for WW2.
Butters ground his teeth.
"Anyway, Harry," Bob began.
"I know," I said. "The thing I saw with the Grey Ghost must be the piece that you cut off."
"Right," he said. "Got it in one."
"Your offspring, one might say."
The skull shuddered, which added a lot of motion to the bobblehead thing. "If one was coming from a dementedly limited mortal viewpoint, I guess."
"So it's a part of you, but not all of you. It's less powerful."
Bob's eyelights narrowed in thought. "Maybe, but . . . the whole of any given being is not always equal to the sum of its parts. Case in point: you. You aren't working with a lot of horsepower in the brains department, yet you manage to get to the bottom of things sooner than most."
I gave the skull a flat look. "Is it stronger than you or not?"
"I don't know," Bob said. "I don't know what it knows. I don't know what it can do. That was sort of the whole point in amputating it. There's a big hole where it used to be."
I grunted. "How big?"
Bob rolled his eyes. "Do you want me to tell you in archaic measurements or metric?"
"Ballpark it."
"Um. A hundred years' worth of knowledge, maybe?"
"Damn," I said quietly. I knew that Bob had once been owned by a necromancer named Kemmler. Kemmler had fought the entire White Council in an all-out war. Twice. They killed him seven times over the course of both wars, but it didn't take until number seven. Generally remembered as the most powerful renegade wizard of the second millennium, Kemmler had at some point acquired a skull inhabited by a spirit of intellect, which had served as his assistant.

Eventually, when Kemmler was finally thrown down, the skull had been smuggled away from the scene by a Warden named Justin DuMorne—the same Justin who had adopted me and trained me to grow up into a monster, and who had eventually decided I wasn't tractable enough and attempted to kill me. It didn't go as he planned. I killed him and burned down his house around his smoldering corpse instead. And I'd taken the same skull, hidden it away from the Wardens and company, and named it Bob.
"Is that bad?" Butters asked.
"A bad guy had the skull for a while," I said. "Big-time dark mojo. So those memories Bob lost are probably everything he learned serving as the assistant to a guy who was almost certainly the strongest wizard on the planet—strong enough to openly defy the White Council for decades."
"Meaning . . . he learned a lot there," Butters said.

"Probably," Bob said cheerfully. "But it's probably limited to pretty much destructive, poisonous, dangerous stuff. Nothing important."
"That's not important?" Butters squeaked.
"Destroying things is easy," Bob said. "Hell, all you really have to do to destroy something is wait. Creation, now. That's hard."
"Bob, would you be willing to take on Evil Bob?"
Bob's eyes darted nervously. "I'd . . . prefer not to. I'd really, really prefer not to. You have no idea. That me was crazy. And buff. He worked out."

I sighed. "One more thing to worry about, then. And meanwhile, I still don't know a damned thing about my murder."
Butters brought the Road Runner to a stop and set the parking break. "You don't," he said. "But we do. We're here. Come on."
I think its safe to say he's responsible for both in canon DF.

I can still kinda take his side.

He was a god. Not a big deal god like Odin or Zeus, but a god in his own right, with a duty he fullfilled and people who worshipped him. Then Christianity came, his faith more or less died out and he had the choice between becoming a lackey of the Fey (always an important part of his homecountry's mythology, but never something above the likes of him) or ending up like forgotten gods do, be that oblivion or maybe just powerless existance.

So he takes the deal and works not for his own portfolio but on Mab's orders for several centuries.

And then that mortal offers him a chance to be free again, a god in his own right. Sure, he's a monster, but he's also a genius who had already beaten death and broken through some limitations of mortality at that point.

How could you not take that offer?
Freedom, without death or loss of power, at no price to yourself or others in the long run (as far as I can tell Arawn's new goodhood is fuelled by ambient energy and requires no particular service or sacrifice).

All that for just letting one man go, who was hunted by the White Council and some Fey forces anyway. How much damage could one almost-mortal cause anyway?
-We've seen other retired gods who stepped back from the game, like Hades in Skin Game. Its not a hard life.
But if you chose to continue to have influence in the Real World, there were Rules.

Odin works within those rules.
Some other gods and spirits just disguise themselves as humans and live in human circumstances.Others like the Twyleth Teg mostly live in Faerie. His circumstances seem to be his choice from what we can tell; he had options.

-That mortal was Kemmler. By 1906 Kemmler had been active all through the nineteenth century, and was 140 years into the machinations that set off WW1. The White Council had already killed him at least once in the early 19th century, and he'd returned to life. His threat levels and trajectory were pretty evident to anyone with eyes.

Arawn doing his deal was the equivalent of a police officer who went into debt to a known loan shark legitimate businessman, then taking a bribe to fund a lavish lifestyle in return for letting a known serial killer go on to abuse and kill other people for decades.
And even now we know little about his motivations, and if there's any remorse, or if the remorse is just about consequences.

IRL he would receive precious little sympathy.
 
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He did hunt Kemmler's heirs at times.
Not just the man himself.

Propably because Kemmler now had his weaknesses and propably would never be cornered by Arawn again.

Also he might not give a shit about people dying, that's definitly an option.
This is possible. Even plausible.

Old people with ancient world ethical frameworks is a persistent issue with immortals and the very long lived, and old wizards. See Gard talking about using the Daedalus agents as ablative meat back at the tattoo parlor. The smart immortals either spend time in human society to acculturate, or they have people to help provide them insight, much like Mab does.

Of course, Gard didnt betray her solemn oaths either.
 
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I can still kinda take his side.

He was a god. Not a big deal god like Odin or Zeus, but a god in his own right, with a duty he fullfilled and people who worshipped him.
Then Christianity came, his faith more or less died out and he had the choice between becoming a lackey of the Fey (always an important part of his homecountry's mythology, but never something above the likes of him) or ending up like forgotten gods do, be that oblivion or maybe just powerless existance.

So he takes the deal and works not for his own portfolio but on Mab's orders for several centuries.

And then that mortal offers him a chance to be free again, a god in his own right. Sure, he's a monster, but he's also a genius who had already beaten death and broken through some limitations of mortality at that point.

How could you not take that offer?
Freedom, without death or loss of power, at no price to yourself or others in the long run (as far as I can tell Arawn's new goodhood is fuelled by ambient energy and requires no particular service or sacrifice).
All that for just letting one man go, who was hunted by the White Council and some Fey forces anyway. How much damage could one almost-mortal cause anyway?
again gods can't fade into oblivion (at least via faith) the only thing faith does for them is let them bridge a gap to the mortal world.
 
again gods can't fade into oblivion (at least via faith) the only thing faith does for them is let them bridge a gap to the mortal world.

For Arawn in this case, it seems that there was a threat of him fading to oblivion unless he was talking metaphorically about it.

To be fair it is not perceived betrayal, it's actual betrayal. One can argue about how fair or not the deal was when the alternative was oblivion and the deal itself was eternal service, but he did take it and then he broke it.
 
I mean if it's cause of faith then dp is just straight up wrong. If it's cause he gets murdered, certain oaths, or other such things that's fine.
Even if he would die without a mantle, he had options. The Erlking for example isn't as strong as Mab, but he's in her weight class. Hunting necromancers is close enough to his thing that a deal could have been made for a new vassal. Summer is also an option.

Perhaps he could have made a deal with another, presumably better prepared, god or pantheon to get cut in on whatever they were personally using to keep alive even if it wouldn't let him stay in the game.

The only thing they all have in common is that he wouldn't get to be in charge any more. I can understand why that upsets him, and if he'd worked with someone else to get out from under winter's thumb I'd be more sympathetic.

The fact remains that he knew or should have known that Kemmler was bad news, even if he didn't know precisely how bad it could get.

This is like a security guard at Arkham Asylum taking a bribe to let the Joker escape. Maybe he didn't know specifically what he'd do and how bad it'd get before Batman returned him, but he had every reason to believe it'd be nothing good and could be incredibly awful.
 
VOTE
[X] Point out that even if he gets away this time they will never be safe from Mab unless they reach some kind of deal
-[X]Social Excellency -1 Essence
-[X]STUNT VARIANT 1:
Settling your shield hand on the pommel of your sword as it rests point down in the floor, you assume a wide easy stance and meet the old psychopomp in the eye. "Sigfridsdottir and her associates located you within two months of your arrival in Chicago."you begin, your voice the whisper of brushfires in dry savannah. "Given how easily they found you, I am pretty sure the Winter Queen has never lost track of your whereabouts. She's just been....patient. And I think that patience is fraying. Is Lydia supposed to live her whole life on the run? Or get caught in the crossfire when Winter comes for you?"
-[X]STUNT VARIANT 2: You glance at Lydia as she enters earshot just in time to hear her father's question, then chuckle, your voice catching you as much by surprise as your audience. "You're not as slick as you think, old man." Your voice hardens."Your attackers knew where you were by January, and their agents were vanilla mortals, with mostly mortal resources. The Winter Queen, given Winter's resources, probably knows what you have had for breakfast every morning for the last century. And with her taking active interest now instead of being handsoff, your options are narrowing fast."
-[X]STUNT VARIANT 3: "You've been on the run since 1906, old man. And from what I can tell, Winter hasnt even been trying. How much longer do you expect to keep this up if the Winter Queen, or one of her senior courtiers, actually makes an effort? I mean, with respect, you got successfully ambushed and knocked the f...udge out by two necromancers and a spirit. Can you honestly tell yourself that Winter lacks specialists better than this bunch?"



[X]BronzeTongue

REASONS
BronzeTongue included a social excellency, Yog's plan didnt.
And I like his stunts.
 
Even if he would die without a mantle, he had options. The Erlking for example isn't as strong as Mab, but he's in her weight class. Hunting necromancers is close enough to his thing that a deal could have been made for a new vassal. Summer is also an option.

Perhaps he could have made a deal with another, presumably better prepared, god or pantheon to get cut in on whatever they were personally using to keep alive even if it wouldn't let him stay in the game.
He could have maybe even set himself up as a Christian/Catholic saint or angel of death/protector of the dead and duped the very people responsible for the destruction of his previous pantheon/religious paradigm into praying to him. That would have been an ironic twist.

From everything we've seen in DF, the White God wouldn't have even batted an eye at this.
 
REASONS
BronzeTongue included a social excellency, Yog's plan didnt.
And I like his stunts.
This is correctable.

[X] Point out that even if he gets away this time they will never be safe from Mab unless they reach some kind of deal
-[X]Social Excellency -1 Essence
-[X] Explain how we suspect Lydia is part of Mab's plans, and how she too won't be safe from her unless some sort of deal is reached.
-[X] Propose the mantle swap
--[X] Explain how it can be done without (permanent) harm
--[X] Ask Matthews if he's interested. Point out how it would protect him from Kemmlerite retribution.
 
Speaking of Arawn, has anyone being looking in the mythological details about the entity to gain some insights into his character along with the relationships he had in his existence? If not I could look into it to gain some information about it?
 
Speaking of Arawn, has anyone being looking in the mythological details about the entity to gain some insights into his character along with the relationships he had in his existence? If not I could look into it to gain some information about it?
That would be interesting to go over in the thread, but I'm not sure if it counts as meta gaming or not. The setting won't conform entirely to the myths, but it's still information we don't have IC that isn't itself an unavoidable consequence of pop culture and the quest being fan fiction.
 
That would be interesting to go over in the thread, but I'm not sure if it counts as meta gaming or not. The setting won't conform entirely to the myths, but it's still information we don't have IC that isn't itself an unavoidable consequence of pop culture and the quest being fan fiction.

The setting may not confirm entirely to myths but the myths do matter as they are what inform the viewers the character of the beings we met such as for example Odin being cunning and smart or the fae being vulnerable to iron. You are correct though that I am not sure if it counts as metagaming or not. Should I ask Dragonparadox before doing this?

Edit: @DragonParadox I have a question which I hope you don't mind I ask, would it be considered meta gaming if I went to look at the myths of Arawn to gain some idea and information about him to show it here or is it fine to do so? Asking to prevent any trouble and gain confirmation.
 
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Couple of things on the vote. I don't like edits after proxy voting has started, so I'm very reluctant to add anything, but it occurs to me that we could probably present both the lesser Ankou and Matthews options at once save ourselves a break point if Matthews isn't interested but Arawn can be convinced to part with the mantle.

I also think we might want to revisit using the crown on Arawn. We didn't before so that we could preserve the question for things like finding him and saving his life, but he's not being threatened right now and knowing his deal is very important to how we proceed with him.
 
The setting may not confirm entirely to myths but the myths do matter as they are what inform the viewers the character of the beings we met such as for example Odin being cunning and smart or the fae being vulnerable to iron. You are correct though that I am not sure if it counts as metagaming or not. Should I ask Dragonparadox before doing this?

Edit: @DragonParadox I have a question which I hope you don't mind I ask, would it be considered meta gaming if I went to look at the myths of Arawn to gain some idea and information about him to show it here or is it fine to do so? Asking to prevent any trouble and gain confirmation.

Looking at myths is fine, after all Molly could have done that at some point as well.
 
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