Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Artemis1992]

Lycanthropes are notably unsavory in Dresden canon.
And hexenwulfen are unstable; see how fast Agent Denton's team degenerated after getting their belts.

I dont see Molly trusting a fetch enough to use it in a ward around her Dragons Nest. Or anywhere.
Expendable spirits are generally not the type that Molly would trust in a situation where they might do harm.
The type she'd trust are either hard to get their loyalty, or she'd be loath to turn them into one use items.

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To be clear on W20 one-use items:

Talens are simpler versions of fetishes, created with the Rite of Binding, which are easier to create but more limited in effect. Like fetishes, talens are objects that contain spirits. They require a Gnosis roll to activate, but not to attune. However, talens can be used only once. After fulfilling the terms of its binding pact, the talen's spirit departs and the item loses its potency

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The spirit remains for the duration of the binding and after the one-shot item is used, it leaves. As far as we know unharmed, since the W20 Werewolves are trying to work together with non-Wyrm spirits on a friendly base.

And even for permanent items the way is ususally non-violent:

Werewolves hold great reverence toward fetishes, treating them as honored allies rather than mere tools. Such is the nature of the pact that binds spirits into fetishes; they are obligated to serve the Garou only as long as they are respected in return. It is possible to bind a spirit against its will, but these fetishes tend to be rebellious, and most Garou consider them cursed.

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So the W20 way of crafting is usually nice.

At the same time as an Infernal she does have the power and authority to bind a Spirit for good after beating it down, with a Charm like Devil-Refining Cauldron, or for less ugly fluff the Ancient Sorcery Spell Argent Miracle Binding.

Argent Miracle Binding
This spell works exactly as the Rite of the Fetish found on page 213 of W20, save that the sorcerer rolls Wits + Occult against difficulty 9, and the binding itself occurs over the course of a ritual lasting for (Fetish's rating) hours, during which time the sorcerer must spend (Fetish's rating × 3) Essence. As a result, this spell is almost always performed in a Dragon Nest.

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So we could use either a bound spirit we deal with to get it in an object, which should be particularly easy for one-shot items like the heal-potion, or we can beat up a Fetch and force it into a Warding for our lair, or some other tool.

 

[uju32]

Mab does things like make Harry stab himself as petty sadistic power plays. He's a wizard, he knows what it means to owe a debt to her. She does it because she can.

Mab, ultimately, is part of the problem. She may currently be a necessary evil, but she's still evil, and we should seek to make her unnecessary.

Things like denying her the mantle of the Eldest Ankou and eventually stealing it are steps in that process.

On a completely different note, as I'm assuming that the Capriocorpus will escape again, when we see it next I think we should use the Crown to learn its mortal name. We can then learn Iron Shade Binding inside a locked freezer and bind it to our service for a year and a day. We then learn all we can from it before destroying it.

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All of your assertions in this quote are inaccurate.

1)It was not a petty sadistic power play.
Dresden literally tells her to her face that his godmother would not have transferred his debt to her.
And Mab demonstrates otherwise. Citation

Spoiler: Summer Knight chapter 2

I laughed at her. That made something else come into those perfect, pale features—anger. Anger, cold and terrible, flashed in her eyes and all but froze the laugh in my throat. "I don't think so," I said. "I'm not making any more bargains with your folk. I don't even know who you are."
"Dear child," she murmured, a slow edge to her voice. "The bargain has already been made. You gave your life, your fortune, your future, in exchange for power."
"Yeah. With my godmother. And that's still being contested."
"No longer," she said. "Even in this world of mortals, the concept of debt passes from one hand to the next. Selling mortgages, yes?"
My belly went cold. "What are you saying?"
Her teeth showed, sharp and white. It wasn't a smile. "Your mortgage, mortal child, has been sold. I have purchased it. You are mine. And you will assist me in this matter."
I set the gun down on my desk and opened the top drawer. I took out my letter opener, one of the standard machined jobs with a heavy, flat blade and a screw-grip handle. "You're wrong," I said, and the denial in my voice sounded patently obvious, even to me. "My godmother would never do that. For all I know, you're trying to trick me."
She smiled, watching me, her eyes bright. "Then by all means, let me reassure you of the truth."
My left palm slammed down onto the table. I watched, startled, as I gripped the letter opener in my right hand, slasher-movie style. In a panic, I tried to hold back my hand, to drop the opener, but my arms were running on automatic, like they were someone else's.
"Wait!" I shouted.
She regarded me, cold and distant and interested.
I slammed the letter opener down onto the back of my own hand, hard. My desk is a cheap one. The steel bit cleanly through the meat between my thumb and forefinger and sank into the desk, pinning me there. Pain washed up my arm even as blood started oozing out of the wound. I tried to fight it down, but I was panicked, in no condition to exert a lot of control. A whimper slipped out of me. I tried to pull the steel away, to get it out of my hand, but my arm simply twisted, wrenching the letter opener counterclockwise.
The pain flattened me. I wasn't even able to get enough breath to scream.
The woman, the faerie, reached down and took my fingers away from the letter opener. She withdrew it with a sharp, decisive gesture and laid it flat on the desk, my blood gleaming all over it. "Wizard, you know as well as I. Were you not bound to me, I would have no such power over you."
At that moment, most of what I knew was that my hand hurt, but some dim part of me realized she was telling the truth. Faeries don't just get to ride in and play puppet master. You have to let them in. I'd let my godmother, Lea, in years before, when I was younger, dumber. I'd given her the slip last year, forced an abeyance of her claim that should have protected me for a year and a day.
But now she'd passed the reins to someone else. Someone who hadn't been in on the second bargain.
I looked up at her, pain and sudden anger making my voice into a low, harsh growl. "Who are you?"
The woman ran an opalescent fingernail through the blood on my desk. She lifted it to her lips and idly touched it to her tongue. She smiled, slower, more sensual, and every bit as alien. "I have many names," she murmured. "But you may call me Mab. Queen of Air and Darkness. Monarch of the Winter Court of the Sidhe."

Dresden is a rude, abrasive git, and his mouth often gets him in trouble.
He's just good enough that his skills make that trouble survivable.

2)Rashid the Gatekeeper works with Mab. Odin works with Mab.
The Archangel Uriel works with Mab, and he doesnt even work with the Archive and vampires and other agents fighting the Oblivion War. She has better character references than the vast majority of the supernatural population.

She's not good.
She's as ruthless as any general fighting a war, and will sacrifice anyone, or anyones she thinks necessary to fight it, including herself. She did sacrifice her niece, and her daughter, and was willing to sacrifice herself in Battlegrounds.

She has done any number of unsavory things in her hundreds of years of reign, some of them possibly unnecessary due to incomplete knowledge. She will often be an adversary we need to take into account.
Nevertheless, your characterization of Mab as evil is just flat out wrong, and unsupported by the text.


3) Furthermore, weakening the Winter Court and disrupting the alliances and treaties that it guarantees is an obvious war aim of Nemesis and the Outsiders. You are literally suggesting we do the work of the enemies of this Creation for them.

 

[DragonParadox]

Lycanthropes are notably unsavory in Dresden canon.
And hexenwulfen are unstable; see how fast Agent Denton's team degenerated after getting their belts.

I dont see Molly trusting a fetch enough to use it in a ward around her Dragons Nest. Or anywhere.
Expendable spirits are generally not the type that Molly would trust in a situation where they might do harm.
The type she'd trust are either hard to get their loyalty, or she'd be loath to turn them into one use items.


I dont agree.

We have both IC and OOC description of Maeve as sadistic.
Dresden outright calls Maeve the sort of person that would enjoy pulling the wings off flies in Cold Days, and we have Mother Summer describe her as someone who would wield power for petty purposes.

But to my recollection, noone ever describes Mab that way.
Ruthless, willing to sacrifice a hell of a lot for her goals, but not someone who take pleasure in inflicting pain.
That doesnt make her unfeeling, or incapable of taking satisfaction from revenge or the downfall of an enemy.

But sadism is not something ascribed to her. Sadism is a weakness.

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Harry is intimidated as hell by Mab so does not go so far as to describe her in as uncomplimentary terms as Meave, but that does not mean he is right. We see Mab choose compulsion whenever she gets the chance and we see her choosing to inflict pain to motivate people, assuming each of those things is only done in the interest of being most efficient is I think overly charitable.

But there is another thing, even if we assume that is the case, that Mab is indifferent to the pain she inflicts and does not seek it out that is still evil. That is being the tyrant who coldly feeds his people into the gears of war or it is being Scrooge willing to see his workers suffer and die for his profit.

In order to assume Mab is not evil not only would we have to be charitable on the matter of her inflicting suffering only for maximum efficiency, but that the only thing that efficiency is in service of is holding the Gates, that she derives no personal profit, no joy from being the Queen of Winter, that she is a cog in the machine that can do nothing but seek maximum efficiency.

I suppose if we take the 'fey have no free will' argument far enough you could argue that to be the case, but then it would mean Harry is also wrong about Meave, that she too is only doing her job.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I dont agree.

We have both IC and OOC description of Maeve as sadistic.
Dresden outright calls Maeve the sort of person that would enjoy pulling the wings off flies in Cold Days, and we have Mother Summer describe her as someone who would wield power for petty purposes.

But to my recollection, noone ever describes Mab that way.

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I don't think Mab is a sadist, but I do think she can and does have motives that are less than purely dedicated to her duties.

I mean it takes a lot to get her there, but we know she can get pissed enough to undermine her self control. There was a whole stretch of the books where she was so upset over what happened to her daughter that she had to use a high tier fey as a translator, because her control over her power was shaken hard enough that just hearing her voice would harm mortals.*



My assumption has been that Slate got the treatment he did because Mab was so angry at his involvement that he earned himself an exception, and to soften him up so that when she arranged for Dresden to take the last step into knighthood he wouldn't even try to resist being sacrificed.

At her core she's a cold and calculating person, but that isn't all she is. When things throw her off Mab can get nasty.

*Incidentally, for those unfamiliar with the books, in the one scene where she chooses to directly talk to Dresden she floors him with a word. Not a dnd power word, just speaking to him in plain english while highly upset. Once he was more braced for it he was better able to stand it, but it's things like this that inform the power scaling I measure the setting by.

On a completely different note, as I'm assuming that the Capriocorpus will escape again, when we see it next I think we should use the Crown to learn its mortal name. We can then learn Iron Shade Binding inside a locked freezer and bind it to our service for a year and a day. We then learn all we can from it before destroying it.



Mab's use of her power over Harry is massively constrained because when she took the favours he owed the Leansidhe she also took the obligations the latter had as his godmother. Hurting him too much in a way that she couldn't pretend was for his own good is impossible for her. Instead she hurt him when she could while remaining within those constraints.

She wouldn't be so limited with her other victims.

Mab does things like make Harry stab himself as petty sadistic power plays. He's a wizard, he knows what it means to owe a debt to her. She does it because she can.

Mab, ultimately, is part of the problem. She may currently be a necessary evil, but she's still evil, and we should seek to make her unnecessary.

Things like denying her the mantle of the Eldest Ankou and eventually stealing it are steps in that process.

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I'm not sure I fully agree with this. Specifically in that I don't think Mab enjoys suffering for it's own sake as a general rule. She enjoys getting her way, asserting dominance, profiting off things, and getting revenge, but she isn't going to kick puppies unless it does something for her. Or they've somehow managed to piss her off, in which case they end up as Laika's spiritual successors.

She's hardly a good person, but if she was as bad as you frame her to be DF would be very different. It's her position as a balancing agent that keeps the supernatural world somewhat stable and civilized. Something she didn't actually have to do, though she naturally arranged for it to benefit her. On a corporate level the winter court is more intensely self interested than anything else.

I don't like your approach in this area because it seems like you're basically addressing your problem with the system as it stands by blanketly opposing it without regard to context or the consequences for anyone involved.

Successfully screwing Mab here wouldn't make Winter nicer, it'd make them vulnerable to bad actors and earn everyone involved the ire of a heavyweight supernatural power.

That's it, there'd be no benefit other than scratching the itch of a grudge, because we don't have the leverage or power to do anything productive here.

Edit: added back dropped words.

Edit2:

The red court is a decent example of why stuff like this is a bad idea. When Harry killed them all it directly created the situation that allowed the Fomorians to rise to power, and all the things that came from that.

This doesn't mean that the red court deserves some sort of protection or special consideration, but it does demonstrate that blowing things up doesn't implicitly improve things. It also highlights that we wouldn't be the only ones looking to take advantage of whatever we did.

Winter is inherently more important and less objectionable than the red court. Dealing with them requires more consideration than simply stabbing them in the kidneys whenever we can.

 

[uju32]

Harry is intimidated as hell by Mab so does not go so far as to describe her in as uncomplimentary terms as Meave, but that does not mean he is right. We see Mab choose compulsion whenever she gets the chance and we see her choosing to inflict pain to motivate people, assuming each of those things is only done in the interest of being most efficient is I think overly charitable.

But there is another thing, even if we assume that is the case, that Mab is indifferent to the pain she inflicts and does not seek it out that is still evil. That is being the tyrant who coldly feeds his people into the gears of war or it is being Scrooge willing to see his workers suffer and die for his profit.

In order to assume Mab is not evil not only would we have to be charitable not just on the matter of her inflicting suffering only for maximum efficiency, but that the only thing that efficiency is in service of is holding the Gates, that she derives no personal profit, no joy from being the Queen of Winter, that she is a cog in the machine that can do nothing but seek maximum efficiency.

I suposse if we take the 'fey have no free will' argument far enough you could argue that to be the case, but then it would mean Harry is also wrong about Meave, that she too is only doing her job.

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1)Yes, Harry is intimidated by Mab.
He is also intimidated by Nicodemus and his crew, but it doesnt prevent him calling them names. Didnt prevent him calling Ethniu names either, IIRC. His default reaction to fear is snark and jibe.

And nowhere, in his fear, do I recall him characterizing her as sadistic.
If Mab was sadistic he would say it. It would be critical information to know. Especially as the conceit of the Dresden Files is that they are his personal journals, for his recollection and the education of whoever he gives them to.


2)No, we dont.
Mab cannot afford compulsion besides as a sometime demonstration even if she wanted to; she's not an angel, and she has limited attention span. Time she's spending on one thing means that she isnt doing other stuff.

Lloyd Slate's betrayal would not be a thing if Mab could afford to compel people willy nilly.

3)Mab is a general in a war that has been going on since before the advent of recorded human history.
Generals will knowingly throw light infantry into the teeth of tanks knowing they will die to buy time, or abandon space with civilians in order to husband their forces.

And here, Mab cannot afford to show weakness, any more than a general fighting a war can afford to show distress, else it draws attention and people die.
Its a cold calculus, but its not evil. You might argue its misguided, but it isnt evil.

And to quote Mother Summer in Cold Days:

Mother Summer smiled at me, and it felt like the first warm day of spring. "That's true, isn't it?"
"But you've got a point to make, ma'am," I said. "Or you wouldn't have brought up the subject."
"I do," she said. "Winter is cold, Sir Knight, but never so cold that it freezes the heart altogether."
"You've got to have a heart before it can freeze, ma'am."
"You do."
I walked for a little while, considering that. "You're saying that I have a chance to stay me."
"I'm saying many things," Mother Summer said. "Do you have a chance to remain yourself despite the tendency of the mantle to mold your thoughts and desires? All Knights, Winter and Summer, have that chance. Most fail."
"But it's possible," I said.
She looked up at me and her eyes were deeper than time. "Anything is possible."
"Ah," I said, understanding. "We're not really talking about me."
"We are," she said serenely, turning her eyes away. "And we are not."
"Uh," I said. "I'm getting a little confused here. What are we talking about, exactly?"
Mother Summer smiled at me.
And then she just clammed up.
We are? We're not?
I kept a straight face while my inner Neanderthal spluttered and then went on a mental rampage through a hypothetical produce section, knocking over shelves and splattering fruit everywhere in sheer frustration, screaming, "JUST TELL ME WHOSE SKULL TO CRACK WITH MY CLUB, DAMMIT!"
Flippin' faeries. They will be the death of me.

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[Alratan]

I don't like your approach in this area because it seems like you're basically addressing your problem with the system as it stands by blanketly opposing it without regard to context or the consequences for anyone involved.

Successfully screwing Mab here wouldn't make Winter nicer, it'd make them vulnerable to bad actors and earn everyone involved the ire of a heavyweight supernatural power.

That's it, there'd be no benefit other than scratching the itch of a grudge, because we don't have the leverage or power to do anything productive here.

Edit: added back dropped words.

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Successfully screwing Mab here means that she has less control over the bearer of a mantle that can be used to interact with the world. That means she needs to bargain and moderate her behaviour to gain the assistance of the bearer of the mantle, rather than simply commanding it.

 

[DragonParadox]

1)Yes, Harry is intimidated by Mab.
He is also intimidated by Nicodemus and his crew, but it doesnt prevent him calling them names. Didnt prevent him calling Ethniu names either, IIRC. His default reaction to fear is snark and jibe.

And nowhere, in his fear, do I recall him characterizing her as sadistic.
If Mab was sadistic he would say it. It would be critical information to know. Especially as the conceit of the Dresden Files is that they are his personal journals, for his recollection and the education of whoever he gives them to.


2)No, we dont.
Mab cannot afford compulsion besides as a sometime demonstration even if she wanted to; she's not an angel, and she has limited attention span. Time she's spending on one thing means that she isnt doing other stuff.

Lloyd Slate's betrayal would not be a thing if Mab could afford to compel people willy nilly.

3)Mab is a general in a war that has been going on since before the advent of recorded human history.
Generals will knowingly throw light infantry into the teeth of tanks knowing they will die to buy time, or abandon space with civilians in order to husband their forces.

And here, Mab cannot afford to show weakness, any more than a general fighting a war can afford to show distress, else it draws attention and people die.
Its a cold calculus, but its not evil. You might argue its misguided, but it isnt evil.

And to quote Mother Summer in Cold Days:

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Mab is not just a general in a war, she is the Queen of Winter, that comes with power, it comes with prestige, those are desirable things that Mab derives from her crown. Now we have not see Mab's inner life so much like the poor bastard of say a French soldier during the reign of the Sun King we look up at this being crowned with glory and willing to commit atrocity well they must have a reason for what they are doing, they are after all in charge.

 

[DragonParadox]

Vote closed.

Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 1, 2022 at 8:45 AM, finished with 123 posts and 16 votes.

• ---

  11 people have voted

  [X]Quick veil should be enough to cover you,
  -[X]Ask Gard to use her muggle-repelling ward

  • uju32
  • Earth-Destroyer
  • Angelazreal1
  • lord2trp0522
  • BronzeTongue
  • Artemis1992
  • Azais
  • the DragonBard
  • Goldfish
  • Ogoobu
  • A_Somebody

  2 people have voted

  [X] Try to cooperate, you are all on the same side against the likes of Katrina and Evil Bob
  -[X] Check Agent Wright's phone to figure out what they think they are doing here first. So you can tailor your approach.

  • JayTar
  • Arhin

  1 people have voted

  [X] Ask Gard if she can use a muggle-repelling ward to get the agents out of the museum ASAP.

  • Fouredged Sword

  1 people have voted

  [X] Let Daedalus go first, they might find a trap or two while dying.

  • LightLan

  1 people have voted

  [X] Try to cooperate, you are all on the same side against the likes of Katrina and Evil Bob

  • Madsamurai

 

[Asael]

whether or not mab is evil isn't even relevant.

She's not in a position to be replaced. Even if she were, there is no one to replace her as capable as she is. Someone has to manage the outer gates.

Not to mention, the mantle will fuck with anyone who we could replace her with- I doubt kindness or gentleness are really in the cards.

Thwarting her here doesn't prep her for replacement. It doesn't even make her more personally vulnerable. It's likely to gain her ire though- and Dresden is probably going to be the one to pay for it, since he's the one breaking his word.

 

[Goldfish]

Just gonna put this out there;

Whether or not Mab is truly Evil doesn't really matter, except as viewed through the lens of Molly's character, and from that POV, Mab is going to be perceived as evil. No amount of debate or citation of DF books is going to change that, at least not right now.

Perhaps in the future that perception might change, depending on Molly's experiences and character growth, but for now that's what we have to work with.

 

[Yog]

whether or not mab is evil isn't even relevant.

She's not in a position to be replaced. Even if she were, there is no one to replace her as capable as she is. Someone has to manage the outer gates.

Not to mention, the mantle will fuck with anyone who we could replace her with- I doubt kindness or gentleness are really in the cards.

Thwarting her here doesn't prep her for replacement. It doesn't even make her more personally vulnerable. It's likely to gain her ire though- and Dresden is probably going to be the one to pay for it, since he's the one breaking his word.

Click to shrink...

All I hear is "let's break open the Black Vault!", really. For all its horror, the First Age of Creation was a golden one. And without Great Curse the new one might be too.

And yes, I am only partially joking

 

[BronzeTongue]

Successfully screwing Mab here means that she has less control over the bearer of a mantle that can be used to interact with the world. That means she needs to bargain and moderate her behaviour to gain the assistance of the bearer of the mantle, rather than simply commanding it.

Click to shrink...

I don't think that'd work out the way you claim, but even if it did this is still a bad plan.

"Winning" a round like this will have impacts on how Mab interacts with us going forwards. Mostly bad ones.

We don't need to roll over for her, but we can't just deny the risks and consequences of our actions because we'd prefer to simply win everything and not deal with what happens after we ride off into the sunset.

 

[Alratan]

I don't think that'd work out the way you claim, but even if it did this is still a bad plan.

"Winning" a round like this will have impacts on how Mab interacts with us going forwards. Mostly bad ones.

We don't need to roll over for her, but we can't just deny the risks and consequences of our actions because we'd prefer to simply win everything and not deal with what happens after we ride off into the sunset.

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There are also consequences to cravenly rolling over and giving Mab what she wants. Once you pay the Danegeld you never get rid of the Dane, etc, so if we go out of our way to give Mab a Mantle out of fear of future consequences that tells her that she can extort Molly for whatever she wants in future.

 

[BronzeTongue]

There are also consequences to cravenly rolling over and giving Mab what she wants. Once you pay the Danegeld you never get rid of the Dane, etc, so if we go out of our way to give Mab a Mantle out of fear of future consequences that tells her that she can extort Molly for whatever she wants in future.

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That isn't what we're doing though; cravenly rolling over would be doing exactly as ordered and running away. Playing games with the mantle is already messing with her toys to our advantage. It's just not balls to the wall crazy like trying to steal it, or hide the thing from her.

We aren't the ones on the hook here, we haven't been blackmailed or threatened into it.

Picking reasonable goals isn't cowardly, it's realistic. Especially when there are concerns like empowering necromancers by keeping the fey vulnerable to them while Ankou is missing. Everyone hates necromancer, it's in our interests for useful members of the supernatural community to be able to stomp on them.

 

[Artemis1992]

Ultimatly I believe whoever holds the Mantle of the Ankou will still be out there hunting Necromancers, pacfying ghosts and doing, in broad strokes, good work, because that's the basic function of the Mantle.

It won't make the world worse if it isn't under Mab's control anymore.

And indeed, if Lydia does not wear the Mantle she can still grow into a powerful force on her own, while someone else also uses the Mantle to put the restless to rest, so that's essentially twice as good as having her wear the Mantle.

 

[Alratan]

whether or not mab is evil isn't even relevant.

She's not in a position to be replaced. Even if she were, there is no one to replace her as capable as she is. Someone has to manage the outer gates.

Not to mention, the mantle will fuck with anyone who we could replace her with- I doubt kindness or gentleness are really in the cards.

Thwarting her here doesn't prep her for replacement. It doesn't even make her more personally vulnerable. It's likely to gain her ire though- and Dresden is probably going to be the one to pay for it, since he's the one breaking his word.

Click to shrink...

We don't know much about the mantle of the eldest Ankou. My personal proposal is to give it to one of Molly's devils when she has her own hell, who probably aren't kind or gentle either.

The commander of the Outer Gates has been replaced before, Mab and the Winter Court have only been in charge in relatively recent terms. Other pantheons previously held them and presumably can do again. Taking mantles away does actually prepare to replace her, as those mantles can then support her replacement rather than being lost.

And we can manage this without Harry breaking his word.

That isn't what we're doing though; cravenly rolling over would be doing exactly as ordered and running away. Playing games with the mantle is already messing with her toys to our advantage. It's just not balls to the wall crazy like trying to steal it, or hide the thing from her.

We aren't the ones on the hook here, we haven't been blackmailed or threatened into it.

Picking reasonable goals isn't cowardly, it's realistic. Especially when there are concerns like empowering necromancers by keeping the fey vulnerable to them while Ankou is missing. Everyone hates necromancer, it's in our interests for useful members of the supernatural community to be able to stomp on them.

Click to shrink...

Cravenly rolling over would be delivering the mantle to Mab on a platter as is being suggested.

From what we can see Arawn has kept on hunting necromancers despite not working for Mab. Her objection isn't that he's not doing that job, is that he's not doing that job for her.

We'd not be stealing the mantle from her, she's already lost it, probably because she's such a terrible boss that quitting was worth making a deal with Kemmler. What's at question is whether she gets it back.

And from Molly's perspective, an example of what Mab does with mantles can be seen with the mantle of the Eldest Fetch. That seems to be fey mantle with domain over fear. As far as Molly knows, and quite possibly actually, Mab uses that authority to interact with the material world to give phobophage's the ability to maim and murder teenagers, and attempt to murder her family in their home. Why would she want to give her an authority over death that can be used in a similar way?

Either Mab deliberately misuse her powers or she lacks the judgement to choose minions who won't misuse them. In either case you don't want to give her additional powers.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Ultimatly I believe whoever holds the Mantle of the Ankou will still be out there hunting Necromancers, pacfying ghosts and doing, in broakd strokes, good work, because that's the basic function of the Mantle.

It won't make the world worse if it isn't under Mab's control anymore.

Click to shrink...

That's good, but doesn't address the problem. Ankou hunting necromancers makes their factions weaker, but that isn't the same as defending winter specifically against people using it against them. Doing so was apparently effective enough to warrant founding an entire department for it, and anyone looking to mess with them will know that.

Global necromancy levels being lower doesn't stop existing powerful bad actors who don't primarily rely on it from picking up enough to gain a competitive advantage.

Because the winter court backs the closest thing to the UN and international law the supernatural world has in addition to holding the outer gates, making them obviously vulnerable to those sorts of groups and entities is bad for the world.

If we want to play these games, we should be at least powerful enough to take the opening ourselves and fend off scavengers while doing so.

 

[Artemis1992]

That's good, but doesn't address the problem. Ankou hunting necromancers makes their factions weaker, but that isn't the same as defending winter specifically against people using it against them. Doing so was apparently effective enough to warrant founding an entire department for it, and anyone looking to mess with them will know that.

Global necromancy levels being lower doesn't stop existing powerful bad actors who don't primarily rely on it from picking up enough to gain a competitive advantage.

Because the winter court backs the closest thing to the UN and international law the supernatural world has in addition to holding the outer gates, making them obviously vulnerable to those sorts of groups and entities is bad for the world.

If we want to play these games, we should be at least powerful enough to take the opening ourselves and fend off scavengers while doing so.

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If Winter has problems with a Necromancer then Mab might as well spend a Harry-debt to get him and with him us and Lydia on the case.

That way he gets closer to freedom and we aren't opposed to killing Necromancer threatening the world order anyway.

 

[uju32]

Mab is not just a general in a war, she is the Queen of Winter, that comes with power, it comes with prestige, those are desirable things that Mab derives from her crown. Now we have not see Mab's inner life so much like the poor bastard of say a French soldier during the reign of the Sun King we look up at this being crowned with glory and willing to commit atrocity well they must have a reason for what they are doing, they are after all in charge.

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I would preface this with a reminder that this is your story.
You can write her however you please.

But no, I dont agree.
It has its perks, and from the outside it might seem desirable, but as written its not something Mab is shown to enjoy.
Any more than Dresden is shown exulting in the power of being Winter Knight.

We do have Word of Jim on what its like to be Mab:

So I know I was speaking about- you're probably just gonna hit me with a- you're not gonna tell me now, but somewhere down the line will we know who Mab was?

Yeah, I guess. That'll be something that comes in a little bit more towards the end but she's- you know she's one of these people who- we don't really know what's gonna happen to humans when we start living a really long time. We don't really know what's gonna happen to us and so to create Mab I just sort of extrapolated what happens to people as they- kind of the psychology of people as they get older while subtracting everything that goes along with degenerating, she doesn't degenerate. And the way I look at it she's just become more and more and more and more just sort of rational and grounded in this function of what she's doing to where every part of her psychology, every part of who she is as a person has become subsumed by needing to pursue this necessary function which is defending the mortal world.


So as long as she's doing that I mean that is all she can think about that's all she does and something that she's been doing for so long that it's just routine at this point. I mean, for her it's like "alright yeah, get up, do exercises, have breakfast, kill some enemies, go over here- torment some enemies, threaten some enemies, alright good, work day done." And it never really stops to occur to her- she never really stops to think "should I really be doing this?" because that's never a part of her calculation, her calculation is always "what I'm doing is necessary for the survival of the world, so I could worry about whether this is good or evil, right or wrong, but you know what I think I'll just do my job and move along to the next step" you know. Yeah I don't know what's gonna happen to humans when we start living a really long time but I don't know if it's gonna be very good for us, we'll have to see

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I was pretty accurate when I said we were dealing with a person whose mores are several hundred years out of date.

-While we do not have a Mab PoV, we do have a Winter Lady Molly PoV.
It does not appear to be fun and games for anyone who takes the job seriously.

Maeve certainly enjoyed the pomp and circumstance.
We see Mab doing official things as Queen in Cold Days, but we dont see the same sort of enjoyment that we see when Maeve holds court. We never see Aurora hold court before she died, or Lily. Titania has barely appeared.

The Mothers are the most powerful in both Courts, but they live in a cottage without attendants.

 

[Asael]

We don't know much about the mantle of the eldest Ankou. My personal proposal is to give it to one of Molly's devils when she has her own hell, who probably aren't kind or gentle either.

The commander of the Outer Gates has been replaced before, Mab and the Winter Court have only been in charge in relatively recent terms. Other pantheons previously held them and presumably can do again. Taking mantles away does actually prepare to replace her, as those mantles can then support her replacement rather than being lost.

And we can manage this without Harry breaking his word.

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Well, you plan is a flop from the word go because I'm fairly certain our devils aren't even eligible to hold the mantle.

Not giving the mantle makes her position no worse than it's been for the last 90 years.

Replacing the winter court as the faction holding the gates is a fulltime job- and not one I'd particularly want. Also, we're no where near being able to replace them ourselves.

Plus, you know, winter enforces the accords.

Like, we'd basically have to be a nation state before even trying any of what you want. Even if we had our own hell, the restrictions on demons being able to move about would prevent us from really replacing her that way.

 

[uju32]

Ultimatly I believe whoever holds the Mantle of the Ankou will still be out there hunting Necromancers, pacfying ghosts and doing, in broad strokes, good work, because that's the basic function of the Mantle.

It won't make the world worse if it isn't under Mab's control anymore.
And indeed, if Lydia does not wear the Mantle she can still grow into a powerful force on her own, while someone else also uses the Mantle to put the restless to rest, so that's essentially twice as good as having her wear the Mantle.

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If a more conscientous person had held it when they had run down Kemmler in 1906, the world would have been spared almost fifty years of Kemmler and thousands, if not millions of deaths.
The current holder did a deal for personal power instead.

Im not condemning him entirely, because we dont have the details of the circumstances from then.
Kemmler might not have seemed as obviously evil as he was later on.
But it just goes to show that you cannot assume an office holder will do their job just because they possess a mantle.

Who holds it matters.

 

[Artemis1992]

If a more conscientous person had held it when they had run down Kemmler in 1906, the world would have been spared almost fifty years of Kemmler and thousands, if not millions of deaths.
The current holder did a deal for personal power instead.

Im not condemning him entirely, because we dont have the details of the circumstances from then.
Kemmler might not have seemed as obviously evil as he was later on.
But it just goes to show that you cannot assume an office holder will do their job just because they possess a mantle.

Who holds it matters.

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And if Mab had been a decent enough boss that an ancient diety wouldn't have decided that he prefered a deal with Kemmler over further service this wouldn't have happend either.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Cravenly rolling over would be delivering the mantle to Mab on a platter as is being suggested.

From what we can see Arawn has kept on hunting necromancers despite not working for Mab. Her objection isn't that he's not doing that job, is that he's not doing that job for her.

We'd not be stealing the mantle from her, she's already lost it, probably because she's such a terrible boss that quitting was worth making a deal with Kemmler. What's at question is whether she gets it back.

And from Molly's perspective, an example of what Mab does with mantles can be seen with the mantle of the Eldest Fetch. That seems to be fey mantle with domain over fear. As far as Molly knows, and quite possibly actually, Mab uses that authority to interact with the material world to give phobophage's the ability to maim and murder teenagers, and attempt to murder her family in their home. Why would she want to give her an authority over death that can be used in a similar way?

Either Mab deliberately misuse her powers or she lacks the judgement to choose minions who won't misuse them. In either case you don't want to give her additional powers

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I've partially addressed this in another post, but here's another way of looking at this.

Suppose a country is having piracy problems, and to combat them it buys some military vessels from a defunct state along with hiring some of their leadership since it has little in the way of a naval tradition. One day the admiral sails off with the flagship and its escorts to be king of the pirates.

Does that guy killing pirates in international waters still sort of help them? Yes. Does it protect them from privateers from hostile powers or local pirates that haven't caught the attention of the traitor? No.

Not doing the job he was paid to do, and taking the power needed to do it without him when he left, is a real and reasonable problem for Winter to have with Anawn.

We don't have to give Mab everything she wants, and we shouldn't try to, but going full balls to the wall in denial of reality isn't any kind of virtue.

Making reasonable estimates of our own abilities and the consequences of our actions isn't just safer, it's more effective and less casualty heavy for bystanders.

Later when we are stronger and can actually play at this level we can do better, but we have to be able to swim before we go deep sea diving

 

[uju32]

We don't know much about the mantle of the eldest Ankou. My personal proposal is to give it to one of Molly's devils when she has her own hell, who probably aren't kind or gentle either.

The commander of the Outer Gates has been replaced before, Mab and the Winter Court have only been in charge in relatively recent terms. Other pantheons previously held them and presumably can do again. Taking mantles away does actually prepare to replace her, as those mantles can then support her replacement rather than being lost.

And we can manage this without Harry breaking his word.



Cravenly rolling over would be delivering the mantle to Mab on a platter as is being suggested.

From what we can see Arawn has kept on hunting necromancers despite not working for Mab. Her objection isn't that he's not doing that job, is that he's not doing that job for her.

We'd not be stealing the mantle from her, she's already lost it, probably because she's such a terrible boss that quitting was worth making a deal with Kemmler. What's at question is whether she gets it back.

And from Molly's perspective, an example of what Mab does with mantles can be seen with the mantle of the Eldest Fetch. That seems to be fey mantle with domain over fear. As far as Molly knows, and quite possibly actually, Mab uses that authority to interact with the material world to give phobophage's the ability to maim and murder teenagers, and attempt to murder her family in their home. Why would she want to give her an authority over death that can be used in a similar way?

Either Mab deliberately misuse her powers or she lacks the judgement to choose minions who won't misuse them. In either case you don't want to give her additional powers.

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Like I said before?
All of this just comes off as an attempt at a power grab with a fig leaf of morality. And with the same chance of success.
Might as well try to steal a carrier from the US Navy and expect to get away clean.

And if Mab had been a decent enough boss that an ancient diety wouldn't have decided that he prefered a deal with Kemmler over further service this wouldn't have happend either.

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You might as well blame the White God for Lucifer and the Denarians being shitheads.

Mab is powerful, but she does not literally make the decisions for other people.
This was his choice both times. Both to freely swear a solemn oath to Winter, and then to go deal with the greatest necromancer of recorded history in order to get out from under it. There are lots of other gods who didnt.

I dont know enough of the dudes history, so Im trying to withold judgement, but thus far Im not impressed.

I've partially addressed this in another post, but here's another way of looking at this.

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Worse, there are real world effects to changes in relative power between the Courts.

Winter gets too strong, Ice Age. Summer gets too strong? Global warming. Or pandemics.
This was an explicit plot point during Summer Knight, as a potential consequence of if Aurora succeeded in throwing the Summer Knight's power to the Winter Court. Earth's supernatural ecology is a complex structure, and changes are often far-reaching.

The Ankou's Mantle is nowhere as big as that of a Knight, but one cannot assume that moving it out of Winter will have no effects on the power balance between the Courts.
Who's up for an Ebola outbreak?

 

[Artemis1992]

You might as well blame the White God for Lucifer and the Denarians being shitheads.

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I absolutly do.
Those are His problem and if he is both allmighty and allmercyful they shouldn't exist.

The Ankou's Mantle is nowhere as big as that of a Knight, but one cannot assume that moving it out of Winter will have no effects on the power balance between the Courts.
Who's up for an Ebola outbreak?

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Winter hasn't had the Ankou for nearly a century though.
I really doubt it will have catastrophic consequences after a century of doing fine without it.

The bigger damage is in terms of reputation, that Mab can't keep her people in line.
Since you know, Arawn has been active over the last century and just let people assume he was still working for her.