Just wanted to give general characterization note, but in Christian cosmology the "everything can be forgiven" ideal stems from the fundamental basis that God is the supreme force in the world and the supreme good. So X person being actually unforgivable implies they did something so evil it's beyond God/Christ's everlasting love which is a big no no. So yeah don't expect Michael to ever get more 'pragmatic' unless something catastrophic that renders his unrecognizable happening (beyond his young son getting a Denarius coin even, since hey, he still has a mortal soul capable of receiving Grace!)
According to dresden files WoG, the fallen (the actual angels) may be beyond redemption, but thats a bit of worldbuilding id happily ignore. It messes up whats otherwise a well done depiction of actually benevolent god.
According to dresden files WoG, the fallen (the actual angels) may be beyond redemption, but thats a bit of worldbuilding id happily ignore. It messes up whats otherwise a well done depiction of actually benevolent god.
Canon Lash is something of a proof of concept that even the Fallen are not beyond redemption.
Sure, it took extremly specific circumstances influencing a tiny piece of a Fallen, but it still happened.
Regardless though, for all practical purposes there are things that Molly should kill or send to hell in shreds, abstract mercy of an all-loving creator aside.
Just wanted to give general characterization note, but in Christian cosmology the "everything can be forgiven" ideal stems from the fundamental basis that God is the supreme force in the world and the supreme good. So X person being actually unforgivable implies they did something so evil it's beyond God/Christ's everlasting love which is a big no no. So yeah don't expect Michael to ever get more 'pragmatic' unless something catastrophic that renders his unrecognizable happening (beyond his young son getting a Denarius coin even, since hey, he still has a mortal soul capable of receiving Grace!)
Eh... as Warrior shows Michael is very, very good at living up to his ideals, but he is not perfect at it. If say one of his kids were hurt or worse killed, he would struggle with the forgiveness even though he would still have the ideal of it.
Anyway vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 14, 2022 at 1:20 PM, finished with 200 posts and 21 votes.
[X]Write-in: Inform others of Kattrin coming, and how far away she is. Go after Lydia first, then find alternate path to surface.
-[X]Crown of Eyes: Plot path to the current location and destination of Daniel Carpenter's current girlfriend.
-[X]If Gard gives number for Hendricks' burner phone, type message for Clippy to tell Bunny to send a text message to Hendricks updating him on status and plans, giving him a description of the car, and to keep an eye out for the occupants.
[X]STUNT: You pocket your phone as you get off your knee. "Holt's car's coming this way. Forty five minutes out at current speeds. And she's bringing a friend." Abrupt silence meets your declaration, and you take a moment to dust off your knee. "Cant tell what it is, just that its human shaped and fits in a car seat, but has no life signs. Time we get Cindy" a nod"out of here." You pause, mind racing, as you finally make a connection. "Wait....Holt's a seer isnt she?" you say slowly. "Could she predict the Ankou's daughter would...." The expression on Gard's face gives you your answer. "Fff...udge. Alright everyone, change of plans."
[X] Black Rider Will Ride Again! -[X] Assuming he can confirm that Katrina is driving, give Black Rider the command to crash his current chassis into a nearby solid object, such as a large tree, stationary garbage truck, sturdy wall, etc. at maximum acceleration with a specific aim toward injuring Katrina as seriously as possible, perhaps even killing her, so long as doing so doesn't endanger bystanders. Going over the side of a bridge would be a good alternative, if an opportunity presents itself. --[X] Black Rider will interface with Clippy, using information about this model of car and automobile accidents in general pulled from the internet, to insure the crash is as severe as he can manage. He will also send Clippy all of his GPS data so we can retrace Katrina's route. ---[X] Before initiating the crash, he is to lock the doors, prevent Katrina from braking, prevent the seat belts from properly engaging, and trigger all of the airbags a moment before impact in order to render them ineffective. ----[X] Assure Black Rider that we will find him a new chassis soon. -[X] Using the extra time this buys us, we will try to locate Lydia while also searching for another exit from Undertown. Michael will keep a close guard on Cindy for the time being. Ask Gard if she has any quick and dirty means to keep Katrina from easily tracking Cindy's location, assuming she probably has hair or even blood samples from the girl.
"Actually good question," you pop up from your seat with a surge of nervous energy and look out over the nave. "Let's see if I can shake loose some answers here."
"Wait what are you going to...?"
Upon your brow a flame unseen kindles and in it eyes awaken eyes to see what was, what is and some of what might yet be. To them all the world is open and vistas even beyond it. "How can the soulgaze be made as safe as possible?"
@DragonParadox I actually want to ask, what specifically are we locked out of asking after this? Anything to do with Harry since it related to knowing about how to make a Soulgaze safer for him? The topic of Soulgazes in general? Or just the very specific circumstance of how to make this one soulgaze safer in this one location?
@DragonParadox I actually want to ask, what specifically are we locked out of asking after this? Anything to do with Harry since it related to knowing about how to make a Soulgaze safer for him? The topic of Soulgazes in general? Or just the very specific circumstance of how to make this one soulgaze safer in this one location?
Eh... as Warrior shows Michael is very, very good at living up to his ideals, but he is not perfect at it. If say one of his kids were hurt or worse killed, he would struggle with the forgiveness even though he would still have the ideal of it.
Eh... as Warrior shows Michael is very, very good at living up to his ideals, but he is not perfect at it. If say one of his kids were hurt or worse killed, he would struggle with the forgiveness even though he would still have the ideal of it.
Anyway vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 14, 2022 at 1:20 PM, finished with 200 posts and 21 votes.
[X]Write-in: Inform others of Kattrin coming, and how far away she is. Go after Lydia first, then find alternate path to surface.
-[X]Crown of Eyes: Plot path to the current location and destination of Daniel Carpenter's current girlfriend.
-[X]If Gard gives number for Hendricks' burner phone, type message for Clippy to tell Bunny to send a text message to Hendricks updating him on status and plans, giving him a description of the car, and to keep an eye out for the occupants.
[X]STUNT: You pocket your phone as you get off your knee. "Holt's car's coming this way. Forty five minutes out at current speeds. And she's bringing a friend." Abrupt silence meets your declaration, and you take a moment to dust off your knee. "Cant tell what it is, just that its human shaped and fits in a car seat, but has no life signs. Time we get Cindy" a nod"out of here." You pause, mind racing, as you finally make a connection. "Wait....Holt's a seer isnt she?" you say slowly. "Could she predict the Ankou's daughter would...." The expression on Gard's face gives you your answer. "Fff...udge. Alright everyone, change of plans."
[X] Black Rider Will Ride Again! -[X] Assuming he can confirm that Katrina is driving, give Black Rider the command to crash his current chassis into a nearby solid object, such as a large tree, stationary garbage truck, sturdy wall, etc. at maximum acceleration with a specific aim toward injuring Katrina as seriously as possible, perhaps even killing her, so long as doing so doesn't endanger bystanders. Going over the side of a bridge would be a good alternative, if an opportunity presents itself. --[X] Black Rider will interface with Clippy, using information about this model of car and automobile accidents in general pulled from the internet, to insure the crash is as severe as he can manage. He will also send Clippy all of his GPS data so we can retrace Katrina's route. ---[X] Before initiating the crash, he is to lock the doors, prevent Katrina from braking, prevent the seat belts from properly engaging, and trigger all of the airbags a moment before impact in order to render them ineffective. ----[X] Assure Black Rider that we will find him a new chassis soon. -[X] Using the extra time this buys us, we will try to locate Lydia while also searching for another exit from Undertown. Michael will keep a close guard on Cindy for the time being. Ask Gard if she has any quick and dirty means to keep Katrina from easily tracking Cindy's location, assuming she probably has hair or even blood samples from the girl.
1) Gard's line of reasoning is sound in my opinion. Katrina chose the time to act when her sisters were not around. She is at least vary of them.
2) It has been 20 years, but 20 years after a near thousand years of conflict. It's possible that Katrina could have drastically improved her capabilities in those twenty years, but it's far less likely than if she was going from 20 to 40 years of age, and not from 980 to 1000. Skill saturation is a thing.
3) From context, mortals = Monoc securities mortal employees.
4) Dresden is also a Warden. He has access to White Council resources. It makes sense to imprison him, even outside of his own personal combat prowess.
Donar Vadderung/Odin says in Skin Game that he has one of the best information networks in the world, better even than Anduriel who can spy on you through your shadow. He's also Kringle/Santa Claus after all; imagine the information necessary to know who's naughty and who's nice on a global scale.
Yet he and his organization lost track of one renegade.
If Monoc lost track of her, I doubt Holt retained sufficient knowledge of their movements to predict the availability of their forces.Kattrin does not appear to have the organizational resources to track all the members of an organization the size of Odin's; the Thule Society are relative bitplayers by supernatural standards.
If her personal Sight/prophecy/augury was that good, we'd have much bigger problems.
2)This point is explicitly contradicted by her current plan to eat the Ankou.
If successful, it would represent a sudden jump in her personal power and resources beyond anything she currently has.
Furthermore, its not likely that this is a field test. She'll have tested it beforehand on something less....perilous.
3)The only Monoc employees I recall we see in canon are Valkyries and Einherjar. No mortals.
Plus whatever the hell Hugin and Munin are supposed to be besides Odin's secretaries and bodyguards.
I mean, they scare Gard, and Gard doesnt scare easily.
2)This point is explicitly contradicted by her current plan to eat the Ankou.
If successful, it would represent a sudden jump in her personal power and resources beyond anything she currently has.
Furthermore, its not likely that this is a field test. She'll have tested it beforehand on something less....perilous.
There are two big assumptions baked in here:
1) That eating Ankou would represent a significant jump in her (combat) abilities
2) That this is the first time in her thousand years of life she has done so.
Now, the second part might be justified if the ritual relies on Kemmler originated knowledge and original research - the man was a genius, after all. But it's equally possible that she did things like this in the past, and they do not actually give her that much of a power boost. Hell, it might be more about removing Ankou and his mantle from play, than empowering Katrina through taking said mantle. Especially if she's Nemesis-tainted / aligned.
Donar Vadderung/Odin says in Skin Game that he has one of the best information networks in the world, better even than Anduriel who can spy on you through your shadow. He's also Kringle/Santa Claus after all; imagine the information necessary to know who's naughty and who's nice on a global scale.
Yet he and his organization lost track of one renegade.
If Monoc lost track of her, I doubt Holt retained sufficient knowledge of their movements to predict the availability of their forces.Kattrin does not appear to have the organizational resources to track all the members of an organization the size of Odin's; the Thule Society are relative bitplayers by supernatural standards.
If her personal Sight/prophecy/augury was that good, we'd have much bigger problems.
The reasons they lost track of her could be numerous, not the least of which could be "they were distracted by something else". She is clearly not their enemy number one. She could also have developed specific protection against their methods of tracking.
3)The only Monoc employees I recall we see in canon are Valkyries and Einherjar. No mortals.
Plus whatever the hell Hugin and Munin are supposed to be besides Odin's secretaries and bodyguards.
I mean, they scare Gard, and Gard doesnt scare easily.
They might have mortal employees we don't see. Mercenaries and the like. Or she might count Einherjar as mortals. In Gard's reasoning Katrina clearly can expect Gard to get mortal backup. This means that Gard herself considers getting mortal backup possible.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 14, 2022 at 1:20 PM, finished with 200 posts and 21 votes.
[X]Write-in: Inform others of Kattrin coming, and how far away she is. Go after Lydia first, then find alternate path to surface.
-[X]Crown of Eyes: Plot path to the current location and destination of Daniel Carpenter's current girlfriend.
-[X]If Gard gives number for Hendricks' burner phone, type message for Clippy to tell Bunny to send a text message to Hendricks updating him on status and plans, giving him a description of the car, and to keep an eye out for the occupants.
[X]STUNT: You pocket your phone as you get off your knee. "Holt's car's coming this way. Forty five minutes out at current speeds. And she's bringing a friend." Abrupt silence meets your declaration, and you take a moment to dust off your knee. "Cant tell what it is, just that its human shaped and fits in a car seat, but has no life signs. Time we get Cindy" a nod"out of here." You pause, mind racing, as you finally make a connection. "Wait....Holt's a seer isnt she?" you say slowly. "Could she predict the Ankou's daughter would...." The expression on Gard's face gives you your answer. "Fff...udge. Alright everyone, change of plans."
[X] Black Rider Will Ride Again! -[X] Assuming he can confirm that Katrina is driving, give Black Rider the command to crash his current chassis into a nearby solid object, such as a large tree, stationary garbage truck, sturdy wall, etc. at maximum acceleration with a specific aim toward injuring Katrina as seriously as possible, perhaps even killing her, so long as doing so doesn't endanger bystanders. Going over the side of a bridge would be a good alternative, if an opportunity presents itself. --[X] Black Rider will interface with Clippy, using information about this model of car and automobile accidents in general pulled from the internet, to insure the crash is as severe as he can manage. He will also send Clippy all of his GPS data so we can retrace Katrina's route. ---[X] Before initiating the crash, he is to lock the doors, prevent Katrina from braking, prevent the seat belts from properly engaging, and trigger all of the airbags a moment before impact in order to render them ineffective. ----[X] Assure Black Rider that we will find him a new chassis soon. -[X] Using the extra time this buys us, we will try to locate Lydia while also searching for another exit from Undertown. Michael will keep a close guard on Cindy for the time being. Ask Gard if she has any quick and dirty means to keep Katrina from easily tracking Cindy's location, assuming she probably has hair or even blood samples from the girl.
"Holt's car's coming this way. Forty five minutes out at current speeds. And she's bringing a friend." Abrupt silence meets your declaration, and you take a moment to dust off your knee. "Cant tell what it is, just that its human shaped and fits in a car seat, but has no life signs. Time we get Cindy..." you nod towards her... "out of here." Then you pause, mind racing, as you finally make a connection. "Wait....Holt's a seer isnt she?" you say slowly. "Could she predict the Ankou's daughter would...." The expression on Gard's face gives you your answer. "Fff...udge. Alright everyone, change of plans.
"Wait... wait... what... something human shaped, but with no life signs, like a zombie? Zombies are real?" Cindy's voice rises to a panic again as she scrambles towards dad, probably because sword aside he looks like the least alarming of the three of you. So much for not scaring her...
"How certain are you of the information?" Gard gives your phone a very pointed look.
"Very certain, listen you know how I said I would fill you in on who those shoes belonged to? I think that was Eldest Ankou's daughter, we need to find her and then we need to get to the surface by some other way than Katrina."
"How do you..." Dad cuts himself off as he realizes that you are planning to do. Instead he focuses on Cindy again and starts to exp-lain in the least alarming of terms what a zombie is and what they can and cannot do. 'Not slow, not stupid, but limited by the concentration of the necromancer that called them, though there are other things that can...'
Tuning out the words you scroll through your pictures until you find one with Lyria and ask of that inner knowing that both is and is not you: Plot path to the current location and destination of Daniel Carpenter's current girlfriend.
Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 8/12
Thus the last sliver of uncertainty that this could have been another really well dressed tourist into the sunless and stinky realms melts away at the sight of Lydia crouched behind a grate listening to you scare off the ghouls. Apparently she's too intent to care if her jeans are ruined. A moment later she almost speaks, almost calls out, then changes her mind, turns and raises a hand slowly in front her her as if pulling unseen threads and the concrete of the tunnel rises up like the wave of a frozen sea, just wide enough for her to step onto it and then fly off. Lydia flies past what looks to be an old subway station and then roughhewn tunnels carved for someone or something distinctly smaller than a full-grown human, though Lydia manages to get through by pushing the stone aside like a fish moving through the sea.
Strangely she seems a lot more certain of her powers that she had been in the other vision.
"I know because I know her dad, she is Daniel's girlfriend, her name's Lydia and she's nice, but she gave me 'spooky side of the street' vibes. I did not want to prod, but down here, well I put two and two together and it came out to 'we need to hurry'. Come on. she went this way..." You are already halfway out of the chamber as you speak.
Though dad looks a little bemused by this revelation it's not him you are worried about. You had just revealed a lot about your divining powers to Gard. Some people can douse for water, you have just proven that you can douse for specific girls in the maze of Undertown at the drop of a hat. Not something you are entirely fine with her or more specifically either of her bosses knowing, but this is more important.
As you make your way back to the ghoul room to trace Lydia's path you quickly explain the rest of what you you had seen and guessed... what little of it there is.
"The station you describe is called Last Station, no one is quite sure how it ended up like this, but I have heard tell that it always looks about twenty years out of date and out of repair, changing as the years pass. I think it might be more in the Nevernever than most places even down here. It's White Court Dregs territory... those of them who break somehow, go mad or just don't have the will to carry on, but he Hunger drives them to do the bare minimum to hunt. They shouldn't be much of a danger, but the tunnels you described, those sound like wyrm holes..."
"Wyrm like Dragon?" you ask, not even trying to keep the trepidation out of your voice.
"In the same way a spark of flint is like a lightning bolt," she snorts. "Still they are dangerous in their own dens and territorial. I doubt they would fail to notice either of you. If something tries to grab you out of the wall don't try to break the grip directly, lean into it and then jerk away. Stone moves most often slow and sometimes very swift, but never does it change it's course swiftly and so their minds are befuddled."
"Wait a second..." you can see the rusted steel service door ahead leading to the Last Station. "Doesn't that mean we could talk to them? Ask them to find Lydia...?" The question fades as you push open the heavy door with a creek and find for the first time since descending into Undertown, light
It does not improve the place.
The flickering orange-red emergency lights gleam dully off the surface of rusted rails and spill downwards like a toxic mold to reveal layers upon layers of gratify that lose all meaning save as a patina of neglect, like the fallen temple of some unnameable deity driven now to madness and disdain.
"I'd ask where the electricity comes from down here, but I'm not sure I want to know..." you joke, voice swallowed up by the quiet of the station a little too quickly.
It's immediately clear something had heard you though. A pile of what seems at first glance to be loose concrete and rebar on the other side of the tracks, next to a rather prodigious hole in the side of the tunnel moves, it twists and reforms. The rubble aligns into the rough configuration of scales, into an approximate serpentine shape, though each pieces remains distinct. The head of said beast is as much drawn on with faded red spray as it is suggested by the way the stones arranged themselves. In the uneven sockets of its eyes, burns the same dying florescence that spills out from the ceiling. Altogether head to tail it is about twelve feet long and about four feet tall as it sits there coiled.
Before you can decide if you should raise your hand or start talking the thing bows its head and in a heavy voice like the scrape of steel on stone it hisses: "You an old sssmell, a sstrange ssmell... power and purpossse. You ssssmell of divinity, but not like the lasssst one, older, ssstronger. What do you ssseek?"
"Hey I thought I was Harry Potter," Cindy gets out, only a little unsteadily. Say what you will about her common sense but the kid doesn't lack for courage.
"Which way did the other one go?" you ask quickly.
The... wyrm points towards the hole in the wall and without prompting describes how to cut her off at the pass as it were, which tunnels to pass through and which to avoid if you want to catch up.
"Why are you telling me all this?" you ask suspiciously.
"When the flood comes the ssstone that does not sssshift is worn away," the strange spirit replies. After a moment it adds. "I could carry you, make ssure you find her whom you sseek. "
"At what price?" OK, now you are really suspicious, but you're not about to refuse help out of hand.
"Aid to make my lair a more fit place to dwell, filled with light that does not fade, with beauty and purpossse," comes the forthright reply.
So he wants you do fix the place up... on the one hand you have the tools, literally and the skills, but it is going to take time, weeks and months of effort even if you cheat...
"If you could claim this place mistress it would be worth the effort a thousandfold," Usum speaks without words, the words manifest greed in your mind. "This place is not merely close to the spirit world, it is a crossing of the dragon-lines. Here greater works might be wrought than could be forged in the thin air and fading light that most of the mortal world holds."
Now you do not know a lot about dragons, even small ones, but you do know they don't like sharing... on the other hand this place is huge. You shake your head. Find Lydia first, deal with Katrina... Is it worth making the dead just for this, just for more speed down here.
[] Take the Earth Wyrm's offer, much faster transport around this area of Undertown (Cost 8 AP of work with the tools you have available; potential future access to Dragon's Nest)
[] Do not take the offer, refurbishing a haunted subway station down here is not something you have the time for (Continue after Lydia in foot)
[] Write in
OOC: If the rolls had gone bad instead of really good this could have been a combat encounter.
[X] Take the Earth Wyrm's offer, much faster transport around this area of Undertown (Cost 8 AP of work with the tools you have available; potential future access to Dragon's Nest)
TAKE IT TAKE IT TAKE THE DEAL
Access to a Dragon's Nest connected to the underways of town is of incalculable value.
[X] Take the Earth Wyrm's offer, much faster transport around this area of Undertown (Cost 8 AP of work with the tools you have available; potential future access to Dragon's Nest)
There are two big assumptions baked in here:
1) That eating Ankou would represent a significant jump in her (combat) abilities
2) That this is the first time in her thousand years of life she has done so.
Now, the second part might be justified if the ritual relies on Kemmler originated knowledge and original research - the man was a genius, after all. But it's equally possible that she did things like this in the past, and they do not actually give her that much of a power boost. Hell, it might be more about removing Ankou and his mantle from play, than empowering Katrina through taking said mantle. Especially if she's Nemesis-tainted / aligned.
1)I dont think its an assumption; she's not trying to nom the Ankou for the taste.
And in Dresdenverse cosmology, all magic power is combat applicable, directly or indirectly. There's a reason Santa Claus has the best intelligence network in the world.
2)Necromancers allegedly can eat spirits for power.
Kravos' Nightmare did this to Harry Dresden in Grave Peril, depowering him for much of the story by eating much of his magic.
And Dresden returns the favor later by gutting and eating the Nightmare whole.
But there's a difference between dining on a relatively weak spirit and trying to eat a death god.
The basic idea might be the same but the application is very different.
I doubt she would have set this up without tests.
3)Easier ways to remove his mantle from play. Just wait for Halloween
The reasons they lost track of her could be numerous, not the least of which could be "they were distracted by something else". She is clearly not their enemy number one. She could also have developed specific protection against their methods of tracking
17 years is a long time to lose track of someone.
And if she developed specific protection against them, we are talking about significantly better levels of power and skill than some of the arguments here assume she has.
They might have mortal employees we don't see. Mercenaries and the like. Or she might count Einherjar as mortals. In Gard's reasoning Katrina clearly can expect Gard to get mortal backup. This means that Gard herself considers getting mortal backup possible.
They could, but we dont see any.
I dont think we can assume they exist.
Holt was a Valk, a Chooser. She knows better than to consider Einherjar as mortals.
And yes, I agree Gard has access to Outfit resources. But Outfit resources are not only mortal; Marcone occasionally employs Goodman Grey, a naagloshii scion. She was taking a significant risk coming here.
Thus the last sliver of uncertainty that this could have been another really well dressed tourist into the sunless and stinky realms melts away at the sight of Lydia crouched behind a grate listening to you scare off the ghouls.
Which is very helpful if someone tries to interact with you in any way, perfect ambush protection and all, but if someone's looking at you from another room well out of the range of your anima that is just normal perception you have to roll.
Maybe. But probably not.
I dont think she's old enough to Choose yet. Her powers are probably just coming in more fully.
Or something is whispering in her ear.
Maybe. But probably not.
I dont think she's old enough to Choose yet. Her powers are probably just coming in more fully.
Or something is whispering in her ear.
[X] Take the Earth Wyrm's offer, much faster transport around this area of Undertown (Cost 8 AP of work with the tools you have available; potential future access to Dragon's Nest)
Underground lair, access to a Dragon Nest, and a smart minion who can discern a lot merely by smelling us. Unless it's an obligate human eater (and even that can be mitigated), what's not to like?
[X] Take the Earth Wyrm's offer, much faster transport around this area of Undertown (Cost 8 AP of work with the tools you have available; potential future access to Dragon's Nest)
[X] Take the Earth Wyrm's offer, much faster transport around this area of Undertown (Cost 8 AP of work with the tools you have available; potential future access to Dragon's Nest)
