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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
The NeverNever has paths that reach the moon.
Allegedly to reach the Gatekeeper's domain, you have to walk across the moon by WoJ. And I doubt Rashid would appreciate us littering the paths to his territory with high-grade magical waste.

If Hades would take them I'd hand them off. But I have my doubts he'd take them either. Or be allowed to hold them.

It all depends on the rules under which the Fallen are allowed to operate on Earth.
It may be a balance thing from when Christ walked out of death in Dresdenverse mythology; Christ died and walked, and so thirty Fallen were permitted to leave Hell under very strict conditions.

If there's a magically enforced contract in play, there's no point trying to move them offworld; they'll just get teleported back somewhere a human or someone who qualifies as mortal can pick them up.

Else the logical thing would be to stick each coin in a block of warded metal and concrete, fly an hour or so off the US west coast and drop it into the abyssal depths of the Pacific. Bonus points if you drop it into one of the deep sea trenches.
You cant tell me the Catholic Church hasnt tried deep sixing at least one coin before only to have it turn up again.
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The point isn't to take them out of circulation forever, just make it a really annoying pain in the ass to undo whatever we do them. Both for petty spite and also to make them spend more time on clean up.

Rashid probably doesn't own the whole moon, so for something like that I imagine we could kind some really out of the way place that makes it a nontrivial effort to organize their retrieval.

The balance of power is a concern, but I'm banking on the idea that as a formally unaligned mortal we can do what we like without technically counting as a violation from either side.

On how the rules for this work specifically, my impression is that the coins operate on one ring rules. They can lean on things, but almost all their power is contingent on getting a person to interact with them first. I'd wager that the church has tried burial at sea, but the fallen either interfere as a group or the coin(s) in question lean really hard on the people trying and escape.

Fortunately for us, we can't be possessed and can ignore mental influences at will. If we put them in a box and take a cirrus skiff to the moon they have to play their card before we break orbit.

I expect they'd somehow get free, or be rescued by something, but the fallen would need to pay the cab fare themselves.

Being allowed to act in the mortal world doesn't mean the white god would agree to hold their hand while they do it.
Yzarc said:
They can escape. That is the point of those charms. The inner world is a mini Yomi Wan and it must always have an escape clause. Same with Infernal inner world.
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I don't want to put a fallen angel inside Molly's soul, but I'm curious about how the fluff of the hells would actually play out with ours.

The description of their history says something to the effect that the jade court vampires could only start breaking free once the Yama kings decided to dam up the flow of souls for their benefit. The implication being that they were impossible to escape save through being cleansed of sin and deliberately released before that.

So if we run on the rules for that variety of hell, would it be a perfect prison again if we specifically leave a way to earn an out?

Though honestly even if that was the case a fallen angel and a mortal soul are very different things, I wouldn't expect a perfect prison for the latter to contain the former as easily.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
That does not work because the other fallen can just retrieve the coin. They have ways to track each other.
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Yes, the other Fallen can (probably)retrieve the coin if they know where it is.
But that claim is not true.
They do not have ways to track each other

Explicitly demonstrated in Small Favor when Nicodemus didnt know that Dresden had given up his coin more than a year and half previously, and didnt know that Dresden had lost all 10 coins he'd recovered at the Shedd Aquarium.
The whole point of their putting infiltrators into the Church is so they can locate and steal them back.
 
Alratan said:
They can have escape routes. It would could be made arbitrarily hard to achieve that though. Particularly for entities already imprisoned in Coins.
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Fallen.
A situation designed to let human souls can break out is not going to pose all that much difficulty to a Fallen angel.
Coin or not.

Furthermore, I would not be at all surprised if the rules that bind Fallen on Earth are very different when they are in a Hell.
 
Alratan said:
We don't have to have humans there, we could simply have a population of non-human supernatural creatures.
And more than one charm consigns defeated enemies to the Infernal's inner hell without a concern that they'd breakout or damage the place. The Coins aren't magical waste, they're magical prisoners, and that's the purpose of the Hells, prisons.
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The Fallen were cast down to Hell, but inside Hell they have very broad freedom of action.
I suspect you would be very unpleasantly surprised at the freedom of action that a Denarian Fallen would get in an otherworld realm that is metaphysically categorized as a Hell.
 
uju32 said:
The Fallen were cast down to Hell, but inside Hell they have very broad freedom of action.
I suspect you would be very unpleasantly surprised at the freedom of action that a Denarian Fallen would get in an otherworld realm that is metaphysically categorized as a Hell.
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Sooo... how do we feed them to the neverborn?
 
CorruptedKing said:
Sooo... how do we feed them to the neverborn?
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I dont think there are any Neverborn in the Dresdenverse cosmology, thankfully.
Not even the Outsiders really fit that niche. Feeding stuff to the Neverborn has never, to my knowledge, turned out well for anyone involved in doing so, victim or perpetrator, in either WoD or Exalted.

Besides, good chance the Neverborn would be unable to affect them anyway. They may have Fallen, but they're still angels.
There's a reason Nemesis hasnt bothered with them.
 
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uju32 said:
You cant tell me the Catholic Church hasnt tried deep sixing at least one coin before only to have it turn up again.
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I can. The point of the existence of the Knights of the Cross is to redeem the denarians. Not just the hosts. The Fallen themselves. Locking them away forever in an inescapable prison does not accomplish that goal. I suspect it's possible to do so, if a mortal with free will throws (or, better yet, takes) the coin into a black hole, I think it would be out of circulation until the end of time. But that's not what Knights of the Cross (and, presumably, the Church) are trying to do long term.
 
Do keep in mind we've seen the Fallen break the rules. The coins are part of an arrangement - I don't believe they are physically bound to the coins, just bound to a penalty game. If we potentially take the coins out of play long enough, they're going to just eat the penalty to fuck us up in retaliation.


The ACTUALLY important part of the denarians are the long running hosts. The Fallen can't replace those.
 
veekie said:
Do keep in mind we've seen the Fallen break the rules. The coins are part of an arrangement - I don't believe they are physically bound to the coins, just bound to a penalty game. If we potentially take the coins out of play long enough, they're going to just eat the penalty to fuck us up in retaliation.


The ACTUALLY important part of the denarians are the long running hosts. The Fallen can't replace those.
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I don't think it quite works like that; some of the rules can be bent, but others seem much firmer. If a lesser power was imposing them I could see the fallen being able to bend strict physical limits, but this is the white god we're talking about.

At the very least Heaven has significantly more force on their side and is really good with those penalty points.

A Denarian trying to bust out of the coin is the sort of thing that gives Uriel permission to directly intervene. A whisper is a tolerable risk, but letting the white hats have that many points would be a strategic error.
 
The thing is, if the coins can be safely and permanently sealed away.....why hasn't it been done so?
 
They have been around for at least 2k years.

In that time, at least one person would have tried and succeed regardless of cost for say revenge or something.
 
I mean, I thought if we wanted to take the Denarians permanently out of play, we'd just use a spirit-killer charm on the coins themselves and perma-kill them? And don't say that's impossible, killing the unkillable was literally what the Exalted were designed to do. And fallen angels are closer to rogue sub-souls than full Primordials, anyway.
 
By the way I'd like to note word of jim hell is like a corporation and lucifer is a corpo hes not the leader of everything.

"As he was quickly signing books, I figured I wouldn't be able to get a long answer out of him, so I shot for a yes no question – "Does Satan rule hell like Hades rules his place?" was what I tried to ask, but as soon as I said "Does Satan rule hell-" he frowned and said no. But then he heard the rest of my question and elaborated. I think I remember his answer verbatim: "Hades is like the CEO of his own small company, sort of. Satan is more like an officer of a sprawling multinational conglomerate – the hierarchy of hell operates exactly like a corporation, obviously" By 'an officer', I assume he meant CEO, what with being a fallen archangel and all, but the word he used was officer."

Given hell most likely in canon is a multiverse thing and not just one timeline since a very wide multiverse is canon and angels are kind of like multi dimensional beings or at least ones like uriel are. DP doesn't seem to like that so we probably don't have to worry about a multiverse here though I'll note the next book will be about a different universe. The corporate thing might still be true though. That or well satan I should say lucifer could always be a different guy in this cosmology than satan their probably the same guy from what I've gathered.
 
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Yzarc said:
The thing is, if the coins can be safely and permanently sealed away.....why hasn't it been done so?
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For my part I've been saying that some ways of getting rid of them stick longer than others, or cost more to undo for their side.

Putting them in time out with the Catholic Church is the best option they currently have, especially with the rules heaven has to follow, but an external agent with our baseline immunities and potential power can be way more annoying with less immediate risk.

It's worth noting that the fallen aren't playing this game because they've won or are winning against heaven. They've been trying to wreck the white god's sim save for millennia and have made very little progress. They have limits and resource concerns.

They could probably get out of anything short of possibly high tier essence backed bullshit, but that doesn't make all things less than that equal.

I wouldn't be surprised if they cultivated the image that all containment methods are equally worthless IC specifically so that they wouldn't need to spend the effort dredging themselves out of volcanoes, floating up from the depths of the ocean, or rolling down uninhabited mountains looking for a hapless goatherd to harass for months on end.
 
bengalqueen said:
I mean, I thought if we wanted to take the Denarians permanently out of play, we'd just use a spirit-killer charm on the coins themselves and perma-kill them? And don't say that's impossible, killing the unkillable was literally what the Exalted were designed to do. And fallen angels are closer to rogue sub-souls than full Primordials, anyway.
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But not what Infernal Exalted are good for.
We suck at killing anything more immortal than a regular spirit.
As the Primordials intended, no point in giving their own minions the full spirit-killer Charms after all.
 
Yzarc said:
The thing is, if the coins can be safely and permanently sealed away.....why hasn't it been done so?
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I suspect if a Coin was truly perfectly sealed, it would just break and allow the Fallen to influence the world in some other way.

The game is designed in such a way as to allow Satan a certain amount of power on the Earth and if God didn't want that to be the situation it would never have happened like that.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I suspect if a Coin was truly perfectly sealed, it would just break and allow the Fallen to influence the world in some other way.

The game is designed in such a way as to allow Satan a certain amount of power on the Earth and if God didn't want that to be the situation it would never have happened like that.
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depends how much power God really has though yeah probably.
 
Artemis1992 said:
But not what Infernal Exalted are good for.
We suck at killing anything more immortal than a regular spirit.
As the Primordials intended, no point in giving their own minions the full spirit-killer Charms after all.
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Even if we could do that, I'm not sure flaying apart the soul of a fallen angel for power is a good idea.

While it would make an excellent heavy metal album cover, they seem like the type of entity that it has never born tier Consequences to actually erase.

Though if we did I'd campaign for putting kill count art of it on the bumper of Molly's car like some sort of bastardized fighter pilot kill marker.
 
Artemis1992 said:
But not what Infernal Exalted are good for.
We suck at killing anything more immortal than a regular spirit.
As the Primordials intended, no point in giving their own minions the full spirit-killer Charms after all.
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The obvious solution is to open the Black Vault. With enough prep-time we can position ourselves to quickly find the new exalts and establish ourselves as the head of the new Deliberative. And benefit from charmsets of other exalt types.

Or we lean into the DresdenVerse magic, and bust out time travel / true resurrection to bring forth Unconcquered Sun / Luna / other incarnae to solve the problem for us.

Or we combine ancient sorcery and time travel and bring forth Ligier. Fairly sure he'll be able to permakill Denarians.
 
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