Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Worlds not fair humans can literally end the world in dresden files as a result of choices and that is up to them fairly often. The creation of said species resulting in stuff that violates certain free wills are a consequence of the thing. Also white court are still effectively human free will and all so most of it is all the result of choice on their part.
Fair isn't what I'm talking about here, and some people being able to end the world doesn't mean they all have the ability to make meaningful choices even in the context of their own lives.

From my perspective, DF free will is more like the bill of rights than it is like what we'd call free will in irl philosophy. It protects you from specific types of interference from specific types of authority, but you can't scream about it to get out of paying taxes or being held down and spiritually lobotomized for the convenience of an inhuman predator.
 
Fair isn't what I'm talking about here, and some people being able to end the world doesn't mean they all have the ability to make meaningful choices even in the context of their own lives.

From my perspective, DF free will is more like the bill of rights than it is like what we'd call free will in irl philosophy. It protects you from specific types of interference from specific types of authority, but you can't scream about it to get out of paying taxes or being held down and spiritually lobotomized for the convenience of an inhuman predator.
But, most of said species exist because of free will though? Also things without free will can still make decisions they just can't change at least not easily and certain decisions are barred to them. Literally everything you listed aside from black court are caused by free will in every single case white court enact their free will and every red court vampires exists as a result of free will. Getting brutally murdered also isn't taking away free will it just sucks.
 
By the way does anyone have the link to that one site with a bunch of dresden files questions and answers given by jim butcher? not reddit. I lost some bookmarks permanently due to having to reset some things and I can't find it.
 
Exalted are clearly different, I was talking about regular mortals.

Renfields, red court hypno-venom, white court thralls, and the divine aura of retired gods clearly demonstrate free will isn't the paramount force in the universe.

Dresden talks a good game about it, but it's important to remember that it's almost literally his religion. It's to the point that he can use a symbol of the primacy of mortal will as a holy symbol to repel red vampires; Harry is anything but an unbiased viewpoint on the topic.
I think that in DF, 'Free Will' basically amounts to 'mortals don't have a predetermined Fate or innate set of metaphysical limitations which restrain most supernatural beings in one or more ways'.

Mortals are generally born as blank slates and can develop in any number of ways, based on their choices and the choices of others, including any supernatural beings they encounter. That doesn't stop a Red Court vampire from mindfucking you and making you into a Happy Meal, or a predatory Fey from eating your liver after breaking your mind for fun, but it does stop sufficiently powerful supernatural beings from exercising total control over someone's existence without their input.

Random God #159 cannot just decide that Unborn Human #351,193,995,002 will be named Harvey, will grow up to like ferrets and dogs but hate cats, and will eventually come to worship Random God #159 when he has a spiritual awakening at the age of 15. RG159 could, however, reach out to 15 year-old Harvey's mind and whisper promises of wealth and power, titties and beer, and convince him to sacrifice the head cheerleader on an altar in the woods.

Just having the potential to make a choice at some point is pretty nice when the alternative is everyone, everywhere is automatically whoever/whatever the local godlike creatures wish them to be.
This is interesting and all but very much off topic, so please take it to the PM or another thread.
Oops, sorry about that. I stepped away from the computer for a few minutes before posting this. Didn't see your post in the intervening time before I got back.
 
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I think that in DF, 'Free Will' basically amounts to 'mortals don't have a predetermined Fate or innate set of metaphysical limitations which restrain most supernatural beings in one or more ways'.

Mortals are generally born as blank slates and can develop in any number of ways, based on their choices and the choices of others, including any supernatural beings they encounter. That doesn't stop a Red Court vampire from mindfucking you and making you into a Happy Meal, or a predatory Fey from eating your liver after breaking your mind for fun, but it does stop sufficiently powerful supernatural beings from exercising total control over someone's existence without their input.

Random God #159 cannot just decide that Unborn Human #351,193,995,002 will be named Harvey, will grow up to like ferrets and dogs but hate cats, and will eventually come to worship Random God #159 when he has a spiritual awakening at the age of 15. RG159 could, however, reach out to 15 year-old Harvey's mind and whisper promises of wealth and power, titties and beer, and convince him to sacrifice the head cheerleader on an altar in the woods.

Just having the potential to make a choice at some point is pretty nice when the alternative is everyone, everywhere is automatically whoever/whatever the local godlike creatures wish them to be.

Oops, sorry about that. I stepped away from the computer for a few minutes before posting this. Didn't see your post in the intervening time before I got back.
there's probably some more to this though you got a lot of it yeah. Also earlier what I was saying amounted to none of those actually deprive anyone of free will not inherently at least they can bring things to a permanent end before that point and often even after free will is still intact though. That or I should say it doesn't deprive someone of the inherent parts of free will themselves they still have it.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 3, 2022 at 8:49 AM, finished with 157 posts and 20 votes.

  • [X][Ask]
    -[X]Katrina: Known capabilities and weaknesses if any. Known backup/associates. What did she betray, if relevant?
    -[X]Gard: If she knows or has met the current Eldest Ankou in Chicago; Choosers and related lines of work because they are both retired psychopomps. If she has heard of a Black Feast or the Capriocorpus. If she will back us up, short Cliff Notes of what she feels is relevant to her combat capabilities
    -[X]Valkyries: Any chance of backup from any of her sisters in the next couple hours?
    -[X]Monoc Security: And just what does Odin One-Eye do these days in his retirement/new line of work?
    [X] We are an extremely skilled melee combatant, specializing in the use of a magical sword we can summon or dismiss at will. We are also more difficult to injure and can fight at full capacity with wounds which would be crippling if not fatal for a regular mortal, and we are resistant to effects which target our mind.
    -[X] While it isn't likely to be relevant in a fight, we have some limited talents related to divination. This is how we were able to track Katrina's car after we encountered her at Matthews' home. We cannot, however, track her if she changes vehicles or travels using some other method.
    -[X] Share with Gard what we have learned of Matthews' likely abilities as well.
    [X] [Reveal] Melee+Magic Sword+Superhuman Durability+Spirit Wrangling+Limited Divination
    -[X]There's a pause. "Y'know my dad." Molly starts, waving a hand vaguely in his direction. "Me? Im still figuring everything out, but Im very good at armed melee." Lowering her voice a little further, she continues."I carry a magic sword that has been able to hurt anything I've hit with it so far, whether fae, Red Court vampire or Outs....spirit, and I can make it hit even harder. Im tougher than vanilla humans, I heal really good afterwards, and Im really hard to pull a mind whammy on. I also have a little skill with divination, and at wrangling some types of minor spirits."
    [X] [Reveal] Be straightforward about your abilities and answer questions. You don't need to hide much here aside from the fact that you're still growing. Everything else is basically fair game really.
    [x] Your a great fighter, and you mantaged to bug her car so we have a good idea of where she it.
    [X] [Ask] What are Katrina's known capabilities? How does she fight, what should you look out for? Importantly, do you need to worry about death curses when fighting her? And, if Gard knows, how is she afraid of death? The ritual she's attempting won't work otherwise, but such a fear seems to run counter to her nature.
    [X] Share everything but our Demon Summoning, Crown of Eyes, and Shintai (because we dont know about it IC). If pressed about the tracking ability, share that we can track electronics we come into contact with.
    [X][Reveal] We're supernaturally competent at a limited range of skills, can heal from injuries that regular humans can't, have some limited clairvoyance, and can summon minor spirits of technology.
    [X] Explain your suspicions about Lydia to Gard and ask her if she can pass/underwrite a message warning her and her father of the danger.
    [x] [Reveal] Melee Skills, Green Fire, Mental Defense, Anima Flare, known capabilities of Capricorpus and Matthews, tracker on the car of Katrina
    [X] [Ask] Capabilities of Katrina, relevant capabilities of Gard
    [X] [Extra] Subtly use your crown to ask for Cindy's location
    [x][Reveal] Sword skills, GSNF, and durability. If pressed, mention some minor spirits we can summon for info gathering.
    -[x] Molly settles into her seat and rolled her eyes heavenward in thought. "I've become a master of armed combat, superhumanly durable, and I've got a green fire that can 'seriously' put a hurt on people. And what it burns is a... " Molly stops and glances at her father, sitting with her, and clears her throat. "That is, it's very difficult to heal, even with magic. Oh, and I can pull a sword out of thin air... as far as I know." Molly shrugs. "I'm not even sure of what I've become. Ask me next week and I could... " Molly searches for something something insane. "I could become a cyberpunk Santa's reindeer and I wouldn't know it."
    [x][Ask] Cwenhild's abilities and what she can even potentially bring to bear in this situation.
    -[x]Molly takes a deep breath, leans forward on the table, and looks Gard in the face. "Look, I'm going to be honest here. My father and I are going into this trying to save a little girl, and help save a penitent man's soul, and my sum total knowledge of Valkyries comes from reading Thor comics, the cliff notes for the Ring Cycle for a book report when I was a freshman, and what you've mentioned here. I don't even know enough to know what to ask. So, I'm going to lay it out here; what do I need to know about her? Can she fly, or turn invisible? Does she have any magical weapons or items I need to worry about? Known allies or minions? How good is she in a fight? What does she know about magic, can she cast spells in anyway? What do I need to worry about from her?"
 
Yeah it also has some of the same beats of ujus plan not all and not as they like it I did vote for goldfish's first though.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 3, 2022 at 8:49 AM, finished with 157 posts and 20 votes.

  • [X][Ask]
    -[X]Katrina: Known capabilities and weaknesses if any. Known backup/associates. What did she betray, if relevant?
    -[X]Gard: If she knows or has met the current Eldest Ankou in Chicago; Choosers and related lines of work because they are both retired psychopomps. If she has heard of a Black Feast or the Capriocorpus. If she will back us up, short Cliff Notes of what she feels is relevant to her combat capabilities
    -[X]Valkyries: Any chance of backup from any of her sisters in the next couple hours?
    -[X]Monoc Security: And just what does Odin One-Eye do these days in his retirement/new line of work?
    [X] We are an extremely skilled melee combatant, specializing in the use of a magical sword we can summon or dismiss at will. We are also more difficult to injure and can fight at full capacity with wounds which would be crippling if not fatal for a regular mortal, and we are resistant to effects which target our mind.
    -[X] While it isn't likely to be relevant in a fight, we have some limited talents related to divination. This is how we were able to track Katrina's car after we encountered her at Matthews' home. We cannot, however, track her if she changes vehicles or travels using some other method.
    -[X] Share with Gard what we have learned of Matthews' likely abilities as well.
    [X] [Reveal] Melee+Magic Sword+Superhuman Durability+Spirit Wrangling+Limited Divination
    -[X]There's a pause. "Y'know my dad." Molly starts, waving a hand vaguely in his direction. "Me? Im still figuring everything out, but Im very good at armed melee." Lowering her voice a little further, she continues."I carry a magic sword that has been able to hurt anything I've hit with it so far, whether fae, Red Court vampire or Outs....spirit, and I can make it hit even harder. Im tougher than vanilla humans, I heal really good afterwards, and Im really hard to pull a mind whammy on. I also have a little skill with divination, and at wrangling some types of minor spirits."
    [X] [Reveal] Be straightforward about your abilities and answer questions. You don't need to hide much here aside from the fact that you're still growing. Everything else is basically fair game really.
    [x] Your a great fighter, and you mantaged to bug her car so we have a good idea of where she it.
    [X] [Ask] What are Katrina's known capabilities? How does she fight, what should you look out for? Importantly, do you need to worry about death curses when fighting her? And, if Gard knows, how is she afraid of death? The ritual she's attempting won't work otherwise, but such a fear seems to run counter to her nature.
    [X] Share everything but our Demon Summoning, Crown of Eyes, and Shintai (because we dont know about it IC). If pressed about the tracking ability, share that we can track electronics we come into contact with.
    [X][Reveal] We're supernaturally competent at a limited range of skills, can heal from injuries that regular humans can't, have some limited clairvoyance, and can summon minor spirits of technology.
    [X] Explain your suspicions about Lydia to Gard and ask her if she can pass/underwrite a message warning her and her father of the danger.
    [x] [Reveal] Melee Skills, Green Fire, Mental Defense, Anima Flare, known capabilities of Capricorpus and Matthews, tracker on the car of Katrina
    [X] [Ask] Capabilities of Katrina, relevant capabilities of Gard
    [X] [Extra] Subtly use your crown to ask for Cindy's location
    [x][Reveal] Sword skills, GSNF, and durability. If pressed, mention some minor spirits we can summon for info gathering.
    -[x] Molly settles into her seat and rolled her eyes heavenward in thought. "I've become a master of armed combat, superhumanly durable, and I've got a green fire that can 'seriously' put a hurt on people. And what it burns is a... " Molly stops and glances at her father, sitting with her, and clears her throat. "That is, it's very difficult to heal, even with magic. Oh, and I can pull a sword out of thin air... as far as I know." Molly shrugs. "I'm not even sure of what I've become. Ask me next week and I could... " Molly searches for something something insane. "I could become a cyberpunk Santa's reindeer and I wouldn't know it."
    [x][Ask] Cwenhild's abilities and what she can even potentially bring to bear in this situation.
    -[x]Molly takes a deep breath, leans forward on the table, and looks Gard in the face. "Look, I'm going to be honest here. My father and I are going into this trying to save a little girl, and help save a penitent man's soul, and my sum total knowledge of Valkyries comes from reading Thor comics, the cliff notes for the Ring Cycle for a book report when I was a freshman, and what you've mentioned here. I don't even know enough to know what to ask. So, I'm going to lay it out here; what do I need to know about her? Can she fly, or turn invisible? Does she have any magical weapons or items I need to worry about? Known allies or minions? How good is she in a fight? What does she know about magic, can she cast spells in anyway? What do I need to worry about from her?"
 
Arc 2 Post 27: Blinded Eyes and Broken Moments
Blinded Eyes and Broken Moments

22st of July 2006 A.D.

After a moment's thought you give a fair accounting of the powers you are likely to use in a duel, not only are you likely to use them in a duel thus making any secrecy moot, but if Marcone interrogated Ace and his ilk Gard would know about all of that already. When it comes to subtler arts though... "I have some skill in divinination enough that I can track Katrina's car in real time."

Lost 1 Essence

"Her car, not her?" Gard asks with what sounds like nothing more then professional interest.

"Her car is a several ton hunk of steel hurtling through the air at speeds that few things that large do in nature. It disturbs the ambient magic a wee bit more than she does." That is technically true even if it's not how you track the Black Rider.

You had been a little worried your dad would give the game away, but he keeps his poker face firmly in place and your new ally does not seem suspicious. She launches into an account of her own prowess, bluntly explaining that she is skilled enough with an axe to have sent many people to their gods as well as being a fair shot with a gun. In terms of magic, what she terms seid Gard prefers warding and protection, being able to deflect spells and curses raise and empower circles as well as cut off her enemies from her magic, though she is just as frank with the limitation of the last one. "I think Katrina and whatever maggot-master she has with her are beyond my power to seal away from their magic."

Lastly she is able to cast a Ward of Warning if you have time to prepare the battleground, basically a ward that instinctively drives ordinary people away from the warded place while also guiding them a little as to the easiest and safest way out. So not only will it not drive someone into oncoming traffic, but it would even make them avoid hidden dangers like landmines.

Part of you is really curious as to when she had to fight with magic next to landmines, but this is not the time for twenty questions you have an enemy to deal with.

"In her mortal life Katrina was a seer as well, far did she see and subtle was her mind, yet as her sight grew stronger, her bitterness grew also, she saw herself going down the cold halls of ages made less than she was, less than she had been promised while the people of Midgard forgot us, while the memory of gods twisted into giants and trolls like an old tree gnarled in poisoned soil. Like a cup with poison she was filled all in secret..."

The blonde woman looks down at the table as though the worn plastic holds the secrets of the universe, then she shakes her head and in a voice even softer explains. "Katrina wished for more than the wisdom of seeing the threads the Norn's weave, she wished to hold them in her hands, to change and to warp them. But what seid we may master is not our choice, not even the Allfather's. Yet in the end she found a way though it cost her station and her honor. She killed three of our sisters and anointed herself with their blood in black rites I do not know the name of nor do I wish to. She gained powers over time, among the rarest and most perilous of magics. Firstly she can entrance the weak of will by changing their perception of time so that they waste minutes in what seems to them an instant, secondly even a strong warrior who faces her might see her limbs slowed as in encased in lead or even halted altogether as if they had been turned to stone. This she can do in and instant, be one veiled even in the arts of Loki himself. "

"Er... wow," you breathe, used to being the one with the magical bullshit rather than facing it. "So if she freezes you how do you get unfrozen. Does it take a spell or...?"

"The lightest touch can break the spell thankfully, anything more than a raindrop. That is the reason why it is a fool's errand to attack her without trusted allies at your back and likely the reason why she decided to come to Chicago now. None of my sisters are available to help until Tuesday at the earliest. Perhaps Katrina thought I would not dare confront her with only mortal allies at my back, or perhaps she hoped so. Katrina never had much respect for mortals."

"So she cannot simply trap multiple foes at once?" you dad asks.

"She can, but it is more difficult for her and she does not have eyes on the back of her head no matter how quick she is to react," Gard explains grimly, though there is a gleam of something bright almost hungry in her eyes, the hope of vengeance after who knows how many years.

"How is she in a fight without the time-warping bu... er nonsense?" you ask, as though you had tripped over your tongue. To be fair you do that from time to time, but now you get the sense hat seeming young is one way to get Gard to open up a bit more.

"Skilled enough to hold me off for a while, not skilled enough to best me." The tone makes you suspect she had the opportunity to test that at some point.

You nod thoughtfully, trying to take another sip of the Coke only to realize it's empty. "I don't suppose you have a better guess of what might be with her other than 'necromancers'."

Gard can only shake her head. "It very much depends on what her task here is, but you can be sure she will have allies with her of one sort or another."

"Her task is to consume the Eldest Ankou. I don't suppose you've met..." You have some suspicions about Lydia, but that's all they are and you would rather have someone without your... aura initiate diplomacy.

"Ankou... those are Mab's death guards right? I haven't met their leader no."

Darn, there goes that idea. After explaining what you understand and that you had seen of Matthews' magic you ask one more question: "What does the Wanderer do these days?"

For the firs time in the conversation Gard smiles, though the twitch of her lips is gone so fast you might have imagined it. She hands you a business card with marked with a circle bisected by a straight line. Omega and Iota overlapped, you realize looking more closely, every last detail, but it also kind of looks like an eye and a cut over it, the blind and all-seeing eye. The card also have an address in thick gothic lettering and of course a phone number. "I'd rather let him explain it, he's better at it than me"

"In other words it is likely her patron has a proposition for you, but one she does not wish to make before your sire," Usum hisses in the back of your mind.

"Thanks," you quickly put Odin's business card in your purse. you would be lying if you said you are not curious. That still sounds surreal to think... but probably not as much as it should.

What do you do next?

[] Search for Cindy with the Crown if you can get her out Katrina loses her leverage on Matthews

[] All this talk of old Welsh spirits turned winter's fixers make you think of Lydia and in particular her globetrotting father. This is probably not how Daniel anticipated introducing his girlfriend to dad, but needs must

[] Ask Gard if Marcone would be inclined to lend a hand, from the sound of things more bodies will at least distract Katrina and might divide her power

[] Try to ambush Katrina by her car, you know where it is and by all appearances she does not know you know


[] Write in

OOC: Not all the answers you guys hoped for, but more than you had preciously.
 
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[X] All this talk of old Welsh spirits turned winter's fixers make you think of Lydia and in particular her globetrotting father. This is probably not how Daniel anticipated introducing his girlfriend to dad, but needs must

Might as well as meet her and see if we are just jumping at shadows or not.
 
[X] Search for Cindy with the Crown if you can get her out Katrina loses her leverage on Matthews

If we can get her out, we get an ally, who could, for example, purposefully mess up the ritual. Also, dealing with Katrina first might trigger dead man's triggers of various kinds.

For the upcoming fight, @DragonParadox would Clippy set on vibrate and taped to our leg / arm / body be enough to break the paralysis magic? It's an ally, and it would be touching us.
 
Being honest I'd love to work with odin long term the dude is well hes smart and hes powerful if not as much as he is if stopped being mortal and caring enough to affect the mortal world as he does. Word of God hes benevolent though given mantles who knows if he always is or always will be benevolent.
 
[X] Search for Cindy with the Crown if you can get her out Katrina loses her leverage on Matthews

If we can get her out, we get an ally, who could, for example, purposefully mess up the ritual. Also, dealing with Katrina first might trigger dead man's triggers of various kinds.

For the upcoming fight, @DragonParadox would Clippy set on vibrate and taped to our leg / arm / body be enough to break the paralysis magic? It's an ally, and it would be touching us.

No a cellphone vibration is not a strong enough motion
 
Being honest I'd love to work with odin long term the dude is well hes smart and hes powerful if not as much as he is if stopped being mortal and caring enough to affect the mortal world as he does. Word of God hes benevolent though given mantles who knows if he always is or always will be benevolent.
We would have greater influence over the Jawas, too.

"Behave, or I'll tell Santa Claus that you're being naughty! I have a meeting with him this afternoon."
 
[X] Search for Cindy with the Crown if you can get her out Katrina loses her leverage on Matthews

So, that was a lot of exposition and two powerful allies gathered, could we now finally use it to safe the girl and kill the Valkyrie, if it isn't too late yet?
 
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