Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Thats as bad as Butcher's estimate of potential wizard numbers being around 1 in a million.
Which has to be off by at least two orders of magnitude for any of the comments about the White Council being swamped by rising numbers of warlocks and untrained talents to be accurate.
Makes perfect since the population has exploded since the 1900s, while at the same time getting viable information about magic to use it has never been easier.
Boiling Sea Mastery's signature effect allows you to adopt shintai for free after 3 combat turns/9 seconds of immobility.
Combine it with Rendered Villain Dispersal, which allows you to disappear into a puddle of liquid.
Hilarity ensues.
Worthless Charred sinner renewal is the only signature worth taking, as the acid rain it calls forth trigger the -1 difficulty to all rolls of Boiling Sea Mastery.
 
I mean the worlds population has increased 15 fold since mccoy and arthurs day and cities have gotten way bigger of course there are far far far more talents and far more minor talents and sorcerers committing crimes.
 
Doesn't Harry know as much about the events of last Halloween as Bob does? And he rolls 8 dice for Int + Occult, so he can probably tell us enough about the Black Feast to be worth it.

[X] Go see Harry along with Father Forthil as he shows the tape to the CPD, if you are going to spring him before Monday it's going to take some fast talking especially since the argument is 'this is weird supernatural stuff you do not want to get mixed into'
-[X] Have Clippy text Dad with the basic details, aka "Nazi necromancers kidnapped little girl to force her grandfather to do shady stuff," and have her continue to brief him as needed and get him to meet up with us.
-[X] After Harry has been briefed on the situation, ask him if he thinks we should call Gard for more backup against Katrina or go straight to using the Crown and then rescuing Cindy, he knows more about whatever supernatural creature they are than you do
 
Doesn't Harry know as much about the events of last Halloween as Bob does? And he rolls 8 dice for Int + Occult, so he can probably tell us enough about the Black Feast to be worth it.

[X] Go see Harry along with Father Forthil as he shows the tape to the CPD, if you are going to spring him before Monday it's going to take some fast talking especially since the argument is 'this is weird supernatural stuff you do not want to get mixed into'
-[X] Have Clippy text Dad with the basic details, aka "Nazi necromancers kidnapped little girl to force her grandfather to do shady stuff," and have her continue to brief him as needed and get him to meet up with us.
-[X] After Harry has been briefed on the situation, ask him if he thinks we should call Gard for more backup against Katrina or go straight to using the Crown and then rescuing Cindy, he knows more about whatever supernatural creature they are than you do
our talks will also be monitored where harry is.
 
I know. That 3 rounds is what I am really against. It costs too much especially since any enemy worth the salt can evaporate the water forcing us out AND cancelling the shintai in the process.
It takes too much set up that can be disrupted to rely on it.
Not particularly.
1) Dispersal works on any body of fluid, and has no restrictions on whether the container is open or not.
Puddle on the floor. Bottle of water in your backpack. Soda can in a vending machine. Teacup on a table. Shotglass of vodka. Bottle of liquid detergent or bleach. And so on.

And you cant sense them mundanely.
If your occult Perception is not on point, as soon as a person breaks line of sight, they're gone and you have nine seconds to find them before they evolve from Magikarp to Gyourados.

couple things how is someone on senior council being unable to use combat magic effectively a plot hole? She has guards, she has powers shes not defenseless she made what are basically murder golems in at least some numbers, shes just not good at stuff like fireballs. Magic is not a uniform thing its heavily personalized and literally no two people do the same thing even if affects are consequentially the same.

Also should note for numbers jim butcher said wizards full talents this doesn't include minor talents this is people who would qualify for the council there are far more warlocks out there than that.
1)Because she wouldnt have lived long enough to make it to the Senior Council.
Some vampire or sidhe or other gribbly would have nommed her for clout, or just on a whim. The White Council protects wizards from organized military attack, not from day to day encounters or personal vendettas.

See Dresden's mother Maggie LeFay and how she died from Lord Raith.
Or the multiple times Dresden almost died before the Vampire War broke out. He may be atypical, but thats potentially what every wizard has to worry about.

Mai(and Martha Liberty for that matter) doesnt have to be an evocation master like Ebenezar, or a combat shapeshifter like Listens to Wind, or a master of wards like the Merlin. They may not like combat, and thats fine. Specializations are fine too. Magical HITMarks are great. But you dont have them on you all the time, and in the Dresdenverse concealed carry is mandatory.

I dont see any living senior wizard in the Dresdenverse that isnt a monster at short notice. Thats like basic requirement for survival.
They have to be capable at it because they are targets in a death world.


2)There have always been a lot more lesser talents than full wizards, but they werent swamped then.
And they are called lesser talents for a reason; they were only so much of a threat because they didnt have the capability to be more
Unless the ratios have suddenly changed, that wouldnt be more of a problem now.

Getting swamped only makes sense if there are a lot more wizard-level talents by ratio than there used to be.
And one in a million would only mean like 8000 wizards globally.

Not to mention that canonically he gives us a total number for all the Wardens that comes to 200 globally.
200 for a combined police and army and security force for locations and HVTs.
Butcher is just bad at math.


3)The Laws of Magic only make sense for the people who have the power to break them.
Makes perfect since the population has exploded since the 1900s, while at the same time getting viable information about magic to use it has never been easier.
I dont buy it.
The sidhe, and various spirits and entities, have always been willing to offer deals to people with potential, and a lot of people were generally poor or wretched or desperate enough to take it. See Harry making a deal with Lea at 16.

If anything, getting viable information about magic is more difficult because of the general skepticism of its existence in large sections of society.
Worthless Charred sinner renewal is the only signature worth taking, as the acid rain it calls forth trigger the -1 difficulty to all rolls of Boiling Sea Mastery.
Not going to argue this right now, but vehemently disagree.
 
Last edited:
Not particularly.
1) Dispersal works on any body of fluid, and has no restrictions on whether the container is open or not.
Puddle on the floor. Bottle of water in your backpack. Soda can in a vending machine. Teacup on a table. Shotglass of vodka.
And so on.

And you cant sense them mundanely.
If your occult Perception is not on point, as soon as a person breaks line of sight, they're gone and you have nine seconds to find them before they evolve from Magikarp to Gyourados.


1)Because she wouldnt have lived long enough to make it to the Senior Council.
Some vampire or sidhe or other gribbly would have nommed her for clout, or just on a whim. The White Council protects wizards from organized military attack, not from day to day encounters or personal vendettas.

See Dresden's mother Maggie LeFay and how she died from Lord Raith.
Or the multiple times Dresden almost died before the Vampire War broke out. He may be atypical, but thats potentially what every wizard has to worry about.

Mai(and Martha Liberty for that matter) doesnt have to be an evocation master like Ebenezar, or a combat shapeshifter like Listens to Wind, or a master of wards like the Merlin. They may not like combat, and thats fine. Specializations are fine too. Magical HITMarks are great. But you dont have them on you all the time, and in the Dresdenverse concealed carry is mandatory.

I dont see any living senior wizard in the Dresdenverse that isnt a monster at short notice. Thats like basic requirement for survival.
They have to be capable at it because they are targets in a death world.


2)There have always been a lot more lesser talents than full wizards, but they werent swamped then.
And they are called lesser talents for a reason; they were only so much of a threat because they didnt have the capability to be more
Unless the ratios have suddenly changed, that wouldnt be more of a problem now.

Getting swamped only makes sense if there are a lot more wizard-level talents by ratio than there used to be.
And one in a million would only mean like 8000 wizards globally.

Not to mention that canonically he gives us a total number for all the Wardens that comes to 200 globally.
200 for a combined police and army and security force for locations and HVTs.
Butcher is just bad at math.


3)The Laws of Magic only make sense for the people who have the power to break them.

I dont buy it.
The sidhe, and various spirits and entities, have always been willing to offer deals to people with potential, and a lot of people were generally poor or wretched or desperate enough to take it. See Harry making a deal with Lea at 16.

If anything, getting viable information about magic is more difficult because of the general skepticism of its existence in large sections of society.

Not going to argue this right now, but vehemently disagree.
Note not good at direct combat does not mean not dangerous it means shes not good at fireballs. She has home defenses, she has her crafted murder golems, shes just not very useful from a personal fire bolt slinging point. Not sure that means incapable that just means not any better than a warden as far as I know not everyone specializes in fighting there are a century or two old wizard in the council who aren't wardens or senior council.

Victor from the first book I'm unsure hes barely even a minor talent didn't stop him from doing demonic shit and making deals and fucking shit up plenty of people can do that. Also previously in other centuries A wizard level talent per country was the norm and the council didn't get everyone. Plenty of people like victor can and do exist and the council didn't used to have to deal with a population of eight billion humans existing. Even people that don't even qualify as talents can technically do some very very basic stuff or call on shit occasionally.
 
Last edited:
I dont buy it.
The sidhe, and various spirits and entities, have always been willing to offer deals to people with potential, and a lot of people were generally poor or wretched or desperate enough to take it. See Harry making a deal with Lea at 16.

If anything, getting viable information about magic is more difficult because of the general skepticism of its existence in large sections of society.

Not going to argue this right now, but vehemently disagree.

Eh... I think information availability on magic is a wash. One the one hand yes society does not for the most part believe in magic as much, but on the other the increase in printing and communication more broadly means that even a small portion of the sheer mass of knowlege that is usable information is as much or more than one would have gotten in the 19th century. Not to mention that new talents are a lot more likely to be literate now than in the past
 
Last edited:
Jim butchers actually said even major talents can technically go their entire life not ever touching it or at least not knowing about it.
 
Note not good at direct combat does not mean not dangerous it means shes not good at fireballs. She has home defenses, she has her crafted murder golems, shes just not very useful from a personal fire bolt slinging point. Not sure that means incapable that just means not any better than a warden as far as I know not everyone specializes in fighting there are a century or two old wizard in the council who aren't wardens or senior council.

Victor from the first book I'm unsure hes barely even a minor talent didn't stop him from doing demonic shit and making deals and fucking shit up plenty of people can do that. Also previously in other centuries A wizard level talent per country was the norm and the council didn't get everyone. Plenty of people like victor can and do exist and the council didn't used to have to deal with a population of eight billion humans existing. Even people that don't even qualify as talents can technically do some very very basic stuff or call on shit occasionally.
Everybody has home defenses. Thats not special.
You still need to go out of your house for day to day stuff. And as Dresden found out, your house can be burned down mundanely. Magic wards dont prevent it.

The Merlin is a master of wards, and actually made what is thought of as a defensive measure into a combat time offensive measure. If she cant do that with her golems, then Im sorry, she'd be dead.

Her making magic HITMarks is great, but unless she can make them in combat time, it wont cut it when she has to roast a scourge of vampires that jumped her on the way from the grocery market, or on the way to a meeting. Or when she has to counterspell a Sidhe or a necromancer. It just makes her a target for the next vampire or sidhe lord who wants a minion to make him murder golems.

Plus, golems require a significant amount of resource investment and time to make.
They're the kind of thing you can only bother with when you're rich. Not the stuff you build your loadout around as a struggling young wizard, or a middle aged spellcaster that just achieved financial stability.


Victor was someone's pawn, and had recipes optimized for him by some unknown actor.
Garden variety sorcerers do not spontaneously come into that much power without any previous data trail out of the blue. Its atypical. Someone big was funnelling him resources and power.
 
Last edited:
Everybody has home defenses. Thats not special.
You still need to go out of your house for day to day stuff. And as Dresden found out, your house can be burned down mundanely. Magic wards dont prevent it.

The Merlin is a master of wards, and actually made what is thought of as a defensive measure into a combat time offensive measure. If she cant do that with her golems, then Im sorry, she'd be dead.

Her making magic HITMarks is great, but unless she can make them in combat time, it wont cut it when she has to roast a scourge of vampires that jumped her on the way from the grocery market, or on the way to a meeting. It just makes her a target for the next vampire lord who wants a minion to make him murder golems.

Plus, golems require a significant amount of resource investment and time to make.
They're the kind of thing you can only bother with when you're rich. Not the stuff you build your loadout around as a struggling young wizard, or a middle aged spellcaster that just achieved financial stability.


Victor was someone's pawn, and had recipes optimized for him by some unknown actor.
Garden variety sorcerers do not spontaneously come into that much power without any previous data trail out of the blue. Its atypical. Someone big was funnelling him resources and power.
uh what makes you think she cant use said golems in combat? Cause she clearly can thats not the same thing as combat magic though thats magic that can be used in combat kind of. Same way an alchemist can probably make a fire bomb thats not combat magic.

Edit: Also I doubt she was as big a target when young the same reason many many other white council members weren't and aren't this is the same logic of how have any white council members survived a century or two senior council and wardens aren't the only old white council wizards.
 
Last edited:
Not particularly.
1) Dispersal works on any body of fluid, and has no restrictions on whether the container is open or not.
Puddle on the floor. Bottle of water in your backpack. Soda can in a vending machine. Teacup on a table. Shotglass of vodka. Bottle of liquid detergent or bleach. And so on.

And you cant sense them mundanely.
If your occult Perception is not on point, as soon as a person breaks line of sight, they're gone and you have nine seconds to find them before they evolve from Magikarp to Gyourados.
I want to argue this more but it really is not the time or place.
Worthless Charred sinner renewal is the only signature worth taking, as the acid rain it calls forth trigger the -1 difficulty to all rolls of Boiling Sea Mastery.
I too disagree with this very much. If you do not want the Shintai free signatures then go Shadow Spite Curse. It imposes -3 penalty on our enemies and leaves our allies alone.

Signature Effect: While she wears her Shintai form, the world around the Infernal is fractured into a jagged landscape of tortured and bleeding Essence, where all actions taken to oppose her suffer a –3 penalty
 
Everybody has home defenses. Thats not special.
You still need to go out of your house for day to day stuff. And as Dresden found out, your house can be burned down mundanely. Magic wards dont prevent it.

The Merlin is a master of wards, and actually made what is thought of as a defensive measure into a combat time offensive measure. If she cant do that with her golems, then Im sorry, she'd be dead.

Her making magic HITMarks is great, but unless she can make them in combat time, it wont cut it when she has to roast a scourge of vampires that jumped her on the way from the grocery market, or on the way to a meeting. Or when she has to counterspell a Sidhe or a necromancer. It just makes her a target for the next vampire or sidhe lord who wants a minion to make him murder golems.

Plus, golems require a significant amount of resource investment and time to make.
They're the kind of thing you can only bother with when you're rich. Not the stuff you build your loadout around as a struggling young wizard, or a middle aged spellcaster that just achieved financial stability.


Victor was someone's pawn, and had recipes optimized for him by some unknown actor.
Garden variety sorcerers do not spontaneously come into that much power without any previous data trail out of the blue. Its atypical. Someone big was funnelling him resources and power.
High Corrospondence to call her Golems to her side instantly maybe?

Or spirit-deals to make protectirs appear whenever she wants to cash in on a pact?

There are ways to turn minionmancy into legit and always accesible combat power.
 
also you know plenty of white council wizards have gone mortal lifetimes being shit at combat magic if not senior council positions I doubt ancient mai was always the important member of the senior council she is now. also paranoia why would she ever be caught unprepared shes 400 shes definitely paranoid.

Edit: Also as far as wizards go some do actually have wizard relatives starting off not all though or even most.
 
Last edited:
uh what makes you think she cant use said golems in combat? Cause she clearly can thats not the same thing as combat magic though thats magic that can be used in combat kind of. Same way an alchemist can probably make a fire bomb thats not combat magic.

Edit: Also I doubt she was as big a target when young the same reason many many other white council members weren't and aren't this is the same logic of how have any white council members survived a century or two senior council and wardens aren't the only old white council wizards.
1)What makes you think she can? Or that it would be adequate?
We've only seen two combat uses of golems in the Dresden Files. One was Victor Sells kaiju scorpion delivered to Dresden's office in Storm Fromt, and the second was a golem built in Undertown in the Down Town comics.

They're big, ungainly, and mostly mundane brutes. A sidhe would eat them alive.

2)Do you realize what the Red Court or the Blacks could do with a wizard?
Drakul literally pulls a renegade interrupt of the events of Battlegrounds in order to murder and make off with the bodies of two Wardens. Seriously.
 
1)What makes you think she can? Or that it would be adequate?
We've only seen two combat uses of golems in the Dresden Files. One was Victor Sells kaiju scorpion delivered to Dresden's office in Storm Fromt, and the second was a golem built in Undertown in the Down Town comics.

They're big, ungainly, and mostly mundane brutes. A sidhe would eat them alive.

2)Do you realize what the Red Court or the Blacks could do with a wizard?
Drakul literally pulls a renegade interrupt of the events of Battlegrounds in order to murder and make off with the bodies of two Wardens. Seriously.
Okay she obviously wasn't always this important and she can have protections that aren't strictly just her own on her? Also again not everyone is specked for combat that doesn't mean there aren't ways to be prepared.

Edit: Plus stuff was more isolated in previous centuries wizards often didn't leave their own countries.
 
Last edited:
[X] Go see Harry along with Father Forthil as he shows the tape to the CPD, if you are going to spring him before Monday it's going to take some fast talking especially since the argument is 'this is weird supernatural stuff you do not want to get mixed into'
-[X] Have Clippy text Dad with the basic details, aka "Nazi necromancers kidnapped little girl to force her grandfather to do shady stuff," and have her continue to brief him as needed and get him to meet up with us.
--[X] Ensure text includes mentions of a 'Black Feast' and 'Capricorpus'
-[X] After Harry has been briefed on the situation, ask him if he thinks we should call Gard for more backup against Katrina or go straight to using the Crown and then rescuing Cindy, he knows more about whatever supernatural creature they are than you do


Ouf, so justification for modifying this a bit/why I'm voting in the first place
  1. I agree prophecy implies we have until Monday for the whole ritual to go down
  2. However, I think it's best to try and be "efficient" if possible
  3. All actions,have us going to visit Dresden anyways so might as well do our best to make sure he gets sprung. And as mentioned, while he isn't Bob he sure as fuck knows about the Capricorpus and might have other ritual info
  4. I know DP isn't gonna give us all the free actions, but I would assume Clippy can text at the same time we travel over to Dresden w/ Foothill.
    1. Individual texts probably don't take much time and again while Michael isn't Bob, mentioned of Capricorpus and Black Feat are likely enough for him to start raising some warning bells on his own initiative without Molly having to do so.
tldr; Going to Bob for specific info would be nice, I think Dresden and Michael would know enough to matter so it seems more efficient to focus on getting them out and alerted ASAP instead of detouring over to Bob.
 
Last edited:
High Corrospondence to call her Golems to her side instantly maybe?
Or spirit-deals to make protectirs appear whenever she wants to cash in on a pact?
There are ways to turn minionmancy into legit and always accesible combat power.
They're saying she is a golem maker, not a spirit binder. An endeavor that requires resources, time and knowledge.
A spirit binder/pact maker would still be vulnerable, but much less so than someone who needs obvious material bodyguards.
Alas, many spirits arent that potent in Dresdenverse material combat. Especially in the daytime.
 
Okay she obviously wasn't always this important and she can have protections that aren't strictly just her own on her? Also again not everyone is specked for combat that doesn't mean there aren't ways to be prepared.
Edit: Plus stuff was more isolated in previous centuries wizards often didn't leave their own countries.
Harry Dresden had vampires slobbering all around him even when he was a neophyte in Chicago.

Given their lifespan, a lot of supernaturals can do longterm thinking.
Three favors from Dresden when he was a 16 year old apprentice are worth a lot more when he's a 30 year old Warden commander, and even more when he's an almost 50 year old Winter Knight and warden of Demonreach.

Grabbing a young wizard, turning them and letting that talent grow for a couple decades gives you a very useful minion.
 
Last edited:
Er... how did they do that while being delicious piles of magic ready to corrupt, use or eat? Practically every single faction of the Accords has use for wizards under their boot or as a meal.
This.

I mean, this is essentially how the Leanansidhe laid the groundwork to acquire Molly and Harry for the Winter Court.
She made friends/associates with Harry's mother, became his godmother, got a couple favors from him, amd trained Molly for the months while he was dead.

And now Mab has a new Winter Knight and Winter Lady.
 
They're saying she is a golem maker, not a spirit binder. An endeavor that requires resources, time and knowledge.
A spirit binder/pact maker would still be vulnerable, but much less so than someone who needs obvious material bodyguards.
Alas, many spirits arent that potent in Dresdenverse material combat. Especially in the daytime.
Going by Mage rules, a high Sphere in Corrospondance could be used to instantly call her Golems to her side.
Or she uses some Spirit/Prime trick to keep them immaterial until they are needed.

There are ways to get your golems in emergencies, if you have the skill to work out a way.
And golems that are either very powerful or specialised against specific foes are propably a valid weapon even in high-power combat.
 
This.

I mean, this is essentially how the Leanansidhe laid the groundwork to acquire Molly and Harry for the Winter Court.
She made friends/associates with Harry's mother, became his godmother, got a couple favors from him, amd trained Molly for the months while he was dead.

And now Mab has a new Winter Knight and Winter Lady.
Dude there are white council wizards who are old who aren't wardens.
 
isolation, paranoia, stuff used to not be nearly as interconnected worldwide? The senior council are not the only old wizards on the white council.
Thats makes the wizards MORE vulnerable, not less.
Becaue they cant easily get support from wizards in other countries, while supernaturals do not actually have very much trouble travelling the Ways. Which meant that Mai grew up in a time when wizards had to be more self-sufficient, not lss.

Imagine a world without telephones. Even wizards have telephones.
 
Thats makes the wizards MORE vulnerable, not less.
Becaue they cant easily get support from wizards in other countries, while supernaturals do not actually have very much trouble travelling the Ways. Which meant that Mai grew up in a time when wizards had to be more self-sufficient, not lss.

Imagine a world without telephones. Even wizards have telephones.
wizards actually largely were the long range communicators pre phones. Not the only ones obviously they did very well at it though. also nasty things don't travel worldwide either very often they have their own places they live just like everybody else.
 
Back
Top