Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

The conversation I'm talking about DragonParadox.

Also @Yog I told you that your question for the Namshiel focus wasn't ideal. We didn't learn anything that wasn't kind of common sense.
I'll defend my choice by the following argument - we now know that he learned nothing more than "I need to accelerate my plans". That's also important to know.
Crafting from what I remember of crafting the body of Tiffany it's going to be a chapter and maybe we'll spend a couple of chapters with Rosie which will be ungodly nice.
I kinda expect shenanigans in the convention. Low level Scooby Doo tier shenanigans, but shenanigans still. Maybe some minor talents trying to do a summoning, or something. I am kinda looking towards seeing the look on some minor winter fae's / demon's face when they are summoned to cause mayhem among mortals, and run directly into an E4/E5 solaroid.
 
Maybe some minor talents trying to do a summoning, or something. I am kinda looking towards seeing the look on some minor winter fae's / demon's face when they are summoned to cause mayhem among mortals, and run directly into an E4/E5 solaroid.
If something is summoned so be it but if it is not a risk to someone's life and limb or the eldest fetch I don't care I don't care how many minor practitioners are there. I don't care what is happening in the background as long as someone isn't about to literally die. I want to have a nice convention trip with Rosie. You can't make me maybe the thread will decide to bite the bait again but I won't Goddamn it I just want to have a nice day out with Rosie.
 
I'll defend my choice by the following argument - we now know that he learned nothing more than "I need to accelerate my plans". That's also important to know.
You know what else is important to know?

"What has Thorned Namshiel learned from their encounter with us?"

That was the one I said we should use instead.
 
You know what else is important to know?

"What has Thorned Namshiel learned from their encounter with us?"

That was the one I said we should use instead.
I am unsure what your argument is? That's the question which won:

---[X] What has Thorned Namshiel learned from their encounter with us?
And this is the question asked in the update:
As you play the last recording you take a coin out of your pocket and look down at the burning mark on black. "What did Throned Namshiel learn from meeting me?"
Those are identical questions.
 
You know what else is important to know?

"What has Thorned Namshiel learned from their encounter with us?"

That was the one I said we should use instead.
Seems to me that it's better to ask for people's plans instead of trying to be this narrow with so little to go on. That was absolutely not worth a coin as a focus because it could only tell us information he gleaned about us. Which means the answer would only be valuable in telling us things we don't know about Molly.

That could contain some important information, but not as valuable as say learning the details of any plan he has pertaining to her.

Don't get me wrong, there's value in narrow questions in many contexts. I just think that the less we know about a situation the harder it is to make a shot in the dark land well.
 
Seems to me that it's better to ask for people's plans instead of trying to be this narrow with so little to go on. That was absolutely not worth a coin as a focus because it could only
Okay, I caused some confusion lmao.

That was Yog's question. I wanted us to save it for the Denarian plan.

Also @DragonParadox two of the Crown foci are wrong.
We didn't want to use the Coin as a focus it was supposed to be a recording of Thorned Namshiel and for the Mikaboshi it was supposed to be the greater Akuma from Boston that he invested some of his power into.

Edit: To be specific I wrote the first three Crown questions and Yog wrote the last two.
 
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We didn't want to use the Coin as a focus it was supposed to be a recording of Thorned Namshiel and for the Mikaboshi it was supposed to be the greater Akuma from Boston that he invested some of his power into.

You didn't use the coin, you just had it on you as you listened to the conversation as for the Wicked city, this is what the winning vote looked like:
---[] How (by what means) has Mikaboshi seized the power from its previous owner? (use freed Wicked City slaves)
 
You didn't use the coin, you just had it on you as you listened to the conversation as for the Wicked city, this is what the winning vote looked like:
---[] How (by what means) has Mikaboshi seized the power from its previous owner? (use freed Wicked City slaves)
You had told us that those foci might not work for what we wanted. There was this whole conversation about it. In the end you said that the corpse might work and that you'd have to see if we still had it.

Then this interaction happened.
Did you find out if we had already used the Akuma corpse Crown focus for Mikaboshi as a crafting regent?

If you need me to get the entire conversation I'll look for it?
 
No, I believe you. One moment, I'll just edit it in.
Thanks. Also what a ripoff. I still don't know what he did to kill the previous ruler because the question itself was actually ass for that apparently and while it normally would've been useful anyway as people talked about possibly taking Mika's realm away from him all the way back during the Boston Arc last year, it kind of just confirms what we learned rather recently when dealing with the last Abyssal.


What did Mikaboshi do to kill the previous king? The world may never know.
 
There is something to be said about your point there about the difficulty of detaining resource but blood points maybe not the best starting point to go there because it is simpler than blood points to get Mana points. You don't have to kill anyone possibly fight anyone or make any stealth checks you just have make a paradigm specific meditation roll to regain mana.

It's not a power source you just get like Essence but it's not something that you can be starved of either. It's quite literally just like vitae except it requires a roll to recover. Though beyond that. The economies are entirely different that is correct.
I see what you're going for, but it's still worth considering that all other sorcery paths avoid adding this sort of hard limit on mana. In the early stages of the path as presented you pay more for less effect than any other path. It basically requires a support path in a very particular sort of build to be viable without appealing to mantle rules we don't have examples for yet.

Perhaps a better balance would be to make it a prep based system? Instead of transmutations being done on the spot you prepare them like DnD spell slots using the roll system you designed, but with a longer time increment, then trigger them with a straight willpower roll at combat time.

That way there's a lot of soft limits to breaking the game while still allowing the path to operate on its own.

So I could give form to the thought Alchemy 6 grants to the ability to become a supernatural creature that is partially why every transmutation has an energy cost because this is a spin-off art of alchemy which means you're already a master alchemy if you're making this path.
Jumping back to this; even a master alchemist making high level potions doesn't have to do this sort of thing. Though this does help me understand where I'm misunderstanding your intent.

I'm looking at this like it's supposed to be a path, if a strange and powerful one. Which to me means that however much it benefits from other magic it should be able to stand on its own and effectively fill some sort purpose at every step along the way.

So my input has been made on the basis that the end goal is something that enhances and operates on the existing abilities of a character, but still should be able to exist as a peer to the existing options.


The aspect system is meant to be used essentially like this there's nothing stopping you from using the sympathetic connection aspect with Hellfire and in fact relatively an encouraged use. Spiritual transmutation because it's directly attached to a character can have a lot of aspects to it but generally it doesn't make sense to use all of them when calculating a thing.

Which is to say like Alchemy spiritual transmutation is capable of a lot of things but it's not capable of everything and it's not capable of everything nor is it meant to be.
Hellfire does one thing, even if you can have lots of different elements to work with. Alchemy also has the limit that you have to buy rituals that take prep work. You can't do new things on the fly as you need them.

The path can do a lot and the basic abilities are actually considerably powerful to the point where if you didn't need Mana to cast them I feel like this is like completely overpowered for reasons elaborated above.
That's the too much and not enough. You have a power that's broken if they're really allowed to use it, so it's locked behind something that makes them not able to use it much at all until they're strong enough to break the game with it.


This very definitively cannot do any of the things you're talking about here. For a variety of reasons but starting from the top can't do Hellfire deals less damage cost way more can augment physical strength and generally help in hand in combat maybe it's quicker to use can't replace Hellfire in general mostly because Hellfire can grant aspects that are unique to Hellfire like lightning water sleet smoke.

Despite its name it's a kind of versatile destruction rather than just fire itself. If you have a character who has some kind of innate fire power but it's not saturated towards resting in your hand or pouring out at an opponent this path can help but if you're looking for Blaster power Hellfire is better. Which is to say if you're a mortal human who either doesn't believe in using what to be honest Natural Forces to kill people this path is better for that purpose it can make you stronger make you more likely to hit your opponent but it's no replacement for Hellfire in any real way.

Healing unless you're talking about just yourself it's not a replacement. Healing can affect you and you alone and even that is only because it's magic enhancing your own. unless you possess some kind of Supernatural feature that already lets you partially heal other people like the Five point spark of Life Merit. Even then you would be better served using the healing path in that case as well. As the dice are literally halved on healing and damage.
I'm familiar. My point was that it can still fill in as a sort of hellfire even if it's not good at the job. As to healing, you were just arguing with aspects that you could affect others weren't you?

My logic here goes like this:

1) The path enhances the abilities of what you living creature you use it on.

2) Humans do heal at some level even if it's pretty pathetic in a lot of ways.

3) Therefore as written healing is as valid a use as making people stronger.

If that's not the intent then it needs some more limits baked in.

More generally, I'm not sure what you're getting at with this line of reasoning. If this sort of ability is so bad that there's no reason people would use them why add it? If it is good enough to be useful then it doesn't need to be equally effective to supplant their roles.

Typically a sorcerer would need to dip into two paths to do both of these things and the exp costs would make them bad at both early on. In this case someone would be able to be more exp efficient than someone doing that, likely spending large portions of the game outperforming them and having more abilities to boot.


This doesn't quite make sense to me. As both permutations and transmutations are essentially the same thing except one is permanent and directly Mastery over transmutation depth is what allows it to be permanent. The only thing they actually truly share as far as aspects go is transmutation depth and there's a reason it starts at three dots where permanent Impressions can be made.
I was thinking from a more mechanical perspective. Transmutations effectively act like if alchemy had an option to make potions on the spot with no recipe requirements. Splitting it off at least makes it more expensive for one character to do that and permanently upgrade themselves at the same time.
 
Thanks. Also what a ripoff. I still don't know what he did to kill the previous ruler because the question itself was actually ass for that apparently and while it normally would've been useful anyway as people talked about possibly taking Mika's realm away from him all the way back during the Boston Arc last year, it kind of just confirms what we learned rather recently when dealing with the last Abyssal.


What did Mikaboshi do to kill the previous king? The world may never know.
From my understanding, and context, he did what the Abyssal was trying to do. Leeched the previous iteration of Wicked City when the nature of humanity changed enough to allow a new hell to arise. Probably around the start of mass industrialization.
 
From my understanding, and context, he did what the Abyssal was trying to do. Leeched the previous iteration of Wicked City when the nature of humanity changed enough to allow a new hell to arise. Probably around the start of mass industrialization.
Something like that it seems like. I don't think this answers my question though. Should've worded it differently but I was thinking that in order to take over a Hell you have to kill it's current owner and DragonParadox said he did that. Leeching by itself shouldn't kill them unless there is some takeaway here that it weakens them and that it does so much so that the previous ruler lost his "at least theoretical power of an Angel" card and became easy eats.
 
Something like that it seems like. I don't think this answers my question though. Should've worded it differently but I was thinking that in order to take over a Hell you have to kill it's current owner and DragonParadox said he did that. Leeching by itself shouldn't kill them unless there is some takeaway here that it weakens them and that it does so much so that the previous ruler lost his "at least theoretical power of an Angel" card and became easy eats.

Yama Kings are at their strongest while they are in their hell, if they are no longer in their hell since it is no longer theirs they are easier to kill.
 
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either by drawing it away from its domain or finding some hidden weakness
Yama Kings are at their strongest while they are in their hell, if they are no longer in their hell since it is no longer theirs they are easier to kill.
So this is soft confirmation that he used leeching and or drew them out rather than exploiting a specific weakness. Got it. Pleasure doing business with you Dragon. Now I can finally rest.
 
We should look into doing something similar by ourselves. SInce we are quartered at Chicago, making Chicago the city of the next Age and drawing power from Wicked City that way might be viable. Not sure if it would need to be a hell, though.
 
Or in short, that Gehenna, Ragnarok, the last turn of this wheel, is coming, and coming soon?

How funny, for the immortal to learn he is out of time.
There's an interesting question there about whether the turn is coming because Molly Exalt or Molly is there because the turn is coming? Or maybe the Turn of the Wheel is there because it is Molly?
 
Also, of note - if we took Hollow Man's offer, it would have been a trap. Hollow Man would have phrased the information in such a way that would have put us in conflict with the elder lunar, I am 100% sure of it.
 
There's an interesting question there about whether the turn is coming because Molly Exalt or Molly is there because the turn is coming? Or maybe the Turn of the Wheel is there because it is Molly?
The answer is almost certainly "yes". I find it funny that Uriel was the one to set off Apocalypse. I wonder if Lucifer is going to be obliged to gift him a fruit basket or something.
Unless a lunar exaltation has been captured somehow, a lunar is out there. Said lunar being a millenium old elder is one of the most dangerous scenarios, so it's better to plan for that.
 
I see what you're going for, but it's still worth considering that all other sorcery paths avoid adding this sort of hard limit on mana. In the early stages of the path as presented you pay more for less effect than any other path. It basically requires a support path in a very particular sort of build to be viable without appealing to mantle rules we don't have examples for yet.
Jumping back to this; even a master alchemist making high level potions doesn't have to do this sort of thing. Though this does help me understand where I'm misunderstanding your intent.
Okay so taking a step back here. Both thematically and systematically the merits that this path is based off of flow of ki, strength of psyche, force of spirit all demand Mana to use and they Grant difficulty breaks based on the amount of Mana spent directly one difficulty to one Mana. Thematically speaking this is based on those merits and on the martial arts we learned from Brother divismar. Which also demand Mana, bodily ki. what we saw in character from Arthur and our own charms which generally cost essence.

There is no in character or mechanical source for developing a path that's based in this kind of thing that says you can do this without some form of magical energy. And the path goes out of its way to describe as carving channels for Magical energy in the spirit of the user.
forged in Molly's own understanding of her Essence and how it behaves. Dedicated directly to the manipulation of the spirit as a channel for mystical Energies.
The merits; flow of Ki, force of spirit and strength of psyche are prime examples of powerful though crude forms of spiritual impression. That Molly felt was imparted onto Olivia partially seen in her conversations with the Merlin of the white council while feeling some thing far more refined in the Qiao Arts taught by Brother Divsimar.

Whether through innate connection to their mystical energies or hours of bitter practice they show a portion of the use of the path creating channels for mana to flow through through the very basis of the self to achieve a variety of internal effects. This is the basis of impressions, protrusions which are transmutations of the spirit that channel mystical energy to achieve external effects follow this process in the form of Permutation making.
Initially in the development this was essentially magical sorcerer charms. To the point where the transmutations and permutations were called transmutations and charms.

Then the scope grew. To realizing that we can make supernatural creatures flat out using Arcana and Inner Devils Unchained and Alchemy can make supernatural creatures as well. I said Well let me see if I can't develop something that very specifically revolves around being a supernatural creature without leaving the general Play space of being a sorcerer.
This path has an obvious use by people who have things like mantles or exaltations or have alchemical transformations pattern Changes that provide Broad strokes. While still being usable by those who don't have those things. As while this is generally based on charms as an idea Molly if she was tapping her soul as channel wouldn't use her exaltation for any of this. Thematically speaking her transmutations and permutations would be spells bound to surface themes rather than metaphysical theming (Ex. Shadows and Ice for Kakuri but no Isolation, Desolation and Degradation.)

Then Finally the Sixth dot of alchemy this path functions as a way to develop powers or keep progression for characters and games that do not center around the major splats. In some sorcerer games becoming full on Mages is too much of a jump (Mechanically or otherwise) or just not the goal generally, the same for becoming mummies or vampires or shape changers. This allows the expansion of set characters without needing to create new systems or bringing them too far outside of phase with the level of play from sorcerers this does keep the power level in the orbit of sorcerers but allows the specific Supernatural creature or type of being that The Alchemist has turned into themselves or their entire party into into something that can grow on itself even if it never becomes as powerful as any of the Bloodlines of the Cainites or the blessings of Osiris while using mana as the supernatural fuel stand in or resource for that transformation.
At no stage was this not a successor art for lack of a better way to put this this comes from a specific person in a specific scenario. Everything mechanically in sorcerer revised seems to say this is an appropriate cost.
Perhaps a better balance would be to make it a prep based system? Instead of transmutations being done on the spot you prepare them like DnD spell slots using the roll system you designed, but with a longer time increment, then trigger them with a straight willpower roll at combat time.

That way there's a lot of soft limits to breaking the game while still allowing the path to operate on its own
All paths can hang spells and this feels particularly like hanging spells but you don't have to pay the costs.
So my input has been made on the basis that the end goal is something that enhances and operates on the existing abilities of a character, but still should be able to exist as a peer to the existing options.
Well okay I do see what you're saying here. The thing is even having one dot in the Mana background would make it a good path to have. but there's obviously meant to be synergies between paths from the fat Mana can be used to lower thresholds and difficulties means that every sorcerer would benefit from having Mana manipulation the path. There are also other merits and backgrounds that directly help with particular sorcery paths or psychic numina. The fact that this one requires a background to work is a bit.... heavy-handed I will say but not entirely inappropriate at least to my mechanical understanding.
If that's not the intent then it needs some more limits baked in.
Spiritual transmutation cannot change the substance of spirit only it's form unlike its parent art Alchemy if the sorcerer is not capable of innate manipulation of some part of reality or elements of reality like say fire, Shadow, water plants Etc then no level of spiritual transmutation will allow that, but accentuating a strength a character already has or increasing the durability that a character already possesses or strengthening the life force of a character are all within the grasp of even the most Mortal of practitioners of spiritual transmutation
It is the intent I'll add a more explicit special note denoting that this path can't be used on other people without basis.
In this case someone would be able to be more exp efficient than someone doing that, likely spending large portions of the game outperforming them and having more abilities to boot.
Well generally this is true of both Enchantment and Alchemy enchanter healing patches/tools and enchanted flame throwers and healing potions and alchemical napalm are strictly better as long as the sorcerer isn't specializing and grant more recipes than just the ones listed.

Though beyond just that as far as damage goes or using Hellfire goes by the third dot you're at 6 dice of damage or four dice of aggravated damage more than it's literally possible to gain using spiritual transmutation same story for healing but notably because we're talking about Mortal Sorcerers here you can release blasts of freezing water control Blooms of smoke and release dust storms all that Hellfire one you can throw lightning bolts earthquakes and tangles of choking Vine at Hellfire 2.

This goes even further using healing because you can modify other characters healing rates with healing at healing one as well as treat diseases give medicine in generally use healing Magic all around rather than lowering the difficulty of a medicine.

There is something to be said about the variety of abilities that can possibly be granted by spiritual transmutation but there is definitively a trade-off as a mortal sorcerer that you're making just like there would be a trade-off in definitive abilities just like every other path.
I was thinking from a more mechanical perspective. Transmutations effectively act like if alchemy had an option to make potions on the spot with no recipe requirements. Splitting it off at least makes it more expensive for one character to do that and permanently upgrade themselves at the same time.
Okay there is something he said about making it expensive for one character to invest in transitation and permutation separately though kind of feels bad asking to pay XP to pay XP but largely like everything else about the path I'm balancing against stuff Within sorcerer revised three dots of alchemy is when you can make permanent Alchemy products that essentially stay with your character at all times. Prima Metallum the mercury and the venerian.

Essentially permutations as their own side path are directly competing with enchantment items talismans as path dots cost the same no matter which path you're talking about and are divorced from Transportation depth significantly worse for the XP then just getting more talismans as well as costing to use and develop.

At the moment at very least from my perspective it's definitively worse having talismans when you have spiritual transportations it's definitively worth having Alchemy potions when you have spiritual transmutations and vice versa so I don't want to make it so that these statements are untrue it really is from my own perspective.

As for my perspective they're all complimentary while they each have benefits that extend an individual scenarios there are complementary to have all together I'm drawing so much material from Alchemy and enchantment I wouldn't want the three paths to be in Conflict directly with some of them being just better than the others.

That's partially why I'm so attached to the Mana cost as that's essentially functioning in the same way that the material and time costs of both Alchemy and enchantment by essentially limiting the maximum number of spells even a high level Spirit artist can use at a time.

Then again there's a lot of considerations that are obviously a part of why I've altered specific General aspects to be nerfed when used with this particular art so it doesn't just subsume every other art or step all over the toes of every other art.
 
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