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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Yog said:
The way I see it is this (before sleep claims me):
1) The council is going to be hurting for a solution right now. The normal procedure of "kill all warlocks with very few exceptions" is not feasible - way too many warlocks at once, and hot war with Red Court going on. This is the problem from both senior council's perspective, and young generation / warden perspective.

2) Bringing back the dead (which we totally should do) exaggerates the problem at least a bit - the dead were warlocks, if unwillingly subverted. We don't know if the Wheel will cure their Lawbreaking soul / sanity damage. Wizards certainly don't know that.

3) FSB on its lonesome cannot be proposed as a long term or permanent solution. It creates too great a dependency on Molly on the institutional level. It's an active charm that requires reapplying. So, if something happens to Molly, or the wizard is unavailable to see it reapplied, the effect lapses. It compromises all those to whom it is applied, as they have to follow Molly's orders. It doesn't actually solve / heal the problem, which almost certainly makes it hard to check if someone is under the effect of FSB or not - it would create uncertainty and potential issues.

Based on these points, if we want to bring people back with as few issues as possible, we need to propose something for the mass law breaking issue, and it cannot be just FSB.

Plus, I feel it might actually be a good idea to put out our ideas here, not just in front of some members of senior council, but also in front of the young wardens, who are suddenly facing the uncertainty of their fate, and a possiblity of execution or at least Doom of Damocles. It puts political pressure on the senior council to accept our ideas, or at least to seriously engage with them, rather than dismissing them. Remember, White Council is not a dictatorship:
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True, but people are still people and they get panicky. Fear makes people dig their heels in even when it doesn't necessarily make sense. You can't expect people to behave perfectly rationally or to assume our intentions are entirely altruistic. Given how they were just betrayed it's unlikely they're in a trusting mood.

I think I roughly agree on the actions to take*


* The birds are the most sensitive thing we disagree on. I want a slow roll out because they're going to be very touchy on this.

Edit:

I mean, try and see it from their perspective. A powerful and scary outsiders with inexplicable knowledge comes in and solves all your problems, then starts making grand promises that happen to involve subjecting wizards to their powers and the miraculous work of their hands.

There's no particular reason to think they're malicious, it certainly wouldn't make a lot of sense given the trouble they went to helping, but at some point the deal becomes too good to be true.

We might as well wear an "Annatar" name tag to the meeting; it'd be considerably more subtle.
 
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Yog said:
Ok, actually. @DragonParadox if you don't mind, can you elaborate on what the different options for the dead mean? Because it was my understanding that we would be using the Wheel as the mechanism of resurrection anyway, since it's our only industrial scale resurrection magic.
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The other options are:
  • Lydia buying necromancy
  • Lash getting lore of Awakening 5
Sorry for not answering today, getting ready to go back on the road so I was busy.
 
DragonParadox said:
  • Lydia buying necromancy
  • Lash getting lore of Awakening 5
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Well these options are both expensive and not going to land well with the White Council in general. Anyone want to change their vote to the option which doesn't cost anything, doesn't offend the fundamental values of the White Council and benefits our kingdom?
 
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fictionfan said:
Well these options are both expensive and not going to land well with the White Council in general. Anyone want to change their vote to the option which doesn't cost anything, doesn't offend the fundamental values of the White Council and benefits our kingdom?
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I think a lot of people just assumed our kingdom is what we were doing.
 
[X] Plan Grand Strategy but our Kingdom
-[X] Activate Empathy excellency
-[X] [Dead] Bring them under the wheel
--[X] Lydia helps to talk to them, uses excellency if applicable
-[X] [Warlocks] Explain all your plans for saving those who unwittingly break the Laws, the dead spirits, the book of names, all of it.

Yeah I was under the impression that it was explaining the options to them not making XP expensive purchases on characters. If that's not the case then have Lydia talk to them about reincarnating using the Wheel.
 
Btw bringing people back with the Wheel turns them into CoDs.

[X] Plan Grand Strategy but our Kingdom
 
Also I thought that everyone knew that not choosing to bring them back with the Wheel meant that they weren't going to be brought back with the Wheel. Which I thought was weird but didn't feel like arguing against. People need to pay attention more.
 
BoredMan said:
I thought was weird but didn't feel like arguing against. People need to pay attention more.
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To be honest I didn't even cast a vote before as I was completely ambivalent about the results, I feel like I have made my opinion on random Wizards relatively clear but then Yog's vote has a possibility of spending of a crap ton of XP so I felt the need to chime in.
 
[X] [Dead] Bring them under the wheel
-[X][Stunt] "I don't know what after life services you have arranged for yourself, but let me provide a new after last minute offer."

[X] Plan Grand Strategy but our Kingdom
 
@DragonParadox,

Could we ask the Crown, based on some minor talent or Wizard Attaché, the same sort of question we asked for Soulgazes, but for the Sight? A way of getting more out of it (understanding it better), and maybe a second question for a way to make it safer?

Then we'd make a book for each, and put them on the same file, and use a question on the file itself for how best to accurately combine them. (Like using the Crown on a book of ancient lore to learn about its subject).

BronzeTongue said:
I mean, try and see it from their perspective. A powerful and scary outsiders with inexplicable knowledge comes in and solves all your problems, then starts making grand promises that happen to involve subjecting wizards to their powers and the miraculous work of their hands.

There's no particular reason to think they're malicious, it certainly wouldn't make a lot of sense given the trouble they went to helping, but at some point the deal becomes too good to be true.

We might as well wear an "Annatar" name tag to the meeting; it'd be considerably more subtle.
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Annatar: And here's the book that teaches you all about Hell, and why you shouldn't go there, and all the ways you can take advantage of those who are there if you go anyways! After that, here's this book regarding Soulgazes, the automatic technique that makes you afraid to look in people's eyes, making you seem untrustworthy? Yeah, this makes them safer and more informative (for you!), so it's more of an advantage even if it does push the masquerade a bit if you do it to mortals.

Wizards (excited): These are most excellent offerings, Lord of Gifts! We owe you much credit for these works!

Annatar, still warming up: I'm not finished. You can't speak to each other easily, or transport yourself without the Nevernever? I can summon spirits that let you use technology and join the twenty-first century, like every other supernatural faction save Faerie! You can finally bring your influence and power to bear properly, and enjoy life's critical support technology like phones!

Wizards: Wow, what a gamechanger! You can't spy on us through that, right?

Annatar, not even close to slowing down: And I have a pocket dimension that definitely isn't a Hell, so we could trade! Magical materials, crafting regents, impossible metals and superconductors! I have supercomputers I can give you!

Wizards, slightly creeped out: Our Yomi Wan expert says that's definitely a Hell. Are you a demon?

Annatar: No, how dare you distrust me? Harry, calm down, they're being reasonable (and slow). Don't judge them.

Wizards: Well, she's got an army. But she seems nice -.

Annatar: TRAITORS, BITCHES! GET'CHA TRAITORS, HALF-PRICE! BUY TEN WARLOCKS, GET FIFTY TAKEN ALIVE FOR FREE! ARCHMAGES, WEIRD MONSTERS, DEMONS, I'VE GOT IT ALL!!!

Wizards: We owe her everything now, don't we?

Annatar, still not fucking done: Would you like me to rez your ded 4U? #WhiteCouncil&AnnatarRHomies4Life

White Council: AAAAAAAAAAA-

Annatar, checking her nails: And seeing how much you liked that book about soulgazes, how about I throw in another one for the Sight?
 
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boo600 said:
@DragonParadox,

Could we ask the Crown, based on some minor talent or Wizard Attaché, the same sort of question we asked for Soulgazes, but for the Sight? A way of getting more out of it (understanding it better), and maybe a second question for a way to make it safer?

Then we'd make a book for each, and put them on the same file, and use a question on the file itself for how best to accurately combine them. (Like using the Crown on a book of ancient lore to learn about its subject).
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You could, though it should be noted that if you want to share it with someone besides Dresden that is likely to raise some questions. It's likely to point you at some obscure lore that may or may not be verifiable.
 
Getting myself back together.
Quick vote right now. Other outstanding replies later this weekend.
======
VOTE
[X] Plan Grand Strategy


I largely agree with BronzeTongue about the perils of frontloading too much information at the same time.
This shouldnt be the time or the place to do this, and Im assuming that Molly is not going to do so with this vote.


As for choices?
The wizards know that you can put a soul into a body without consequences to their free will; thats what happened to Luccio.
They do not know that there are no longterm risks to going to undergoing rebirth in a Hell with a reigning Empress.

I really dont think the Hell option is a good idea.
Even assuming it works, because IIRC it should only work if you actually die in Sanctuary, not if your dead body was brought there.
 
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uju32 said:
I really dont think the Hell option is a good idea.
Even assuming it works, because IIRC it should only work if you actually die in Sanctuary, not if your dead body was brought there.
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Okay, so why this option when? Seriously, if it won't work and the GM knows it won't work...Why give us this choice? This isn't a trap like the maze.
 
if dp doesn't close the vote before yog gets up I doubt its gonna win since some people are voting for yog and he definitely doesn't want his plan to win if it doesn't just use our hell.
 
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