Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Context matters.
Theres a reason the statement is "similar to" and not "the same as".
Reading it in that context doesn't change my mind about the interpretation. I don't expect them to literally be evenly matched, but they're in the same weight class power wise. Their builds are very different, but that's a separate issue.

There's no reason to draw that comparison in that context except to benchmark Walkers against Archangels in terms of ability. It's the same as saying "Henry, being of similar strength to the Olympic weightlifter Doug, could easily lift that weight over there".

The point of that statement is not to say that since Henry got a gold medal at an amateur event and Doug got one at the Olympics that they're peer champions even though one is much stronger than the other.
 
Correction:
Most others we have met appear to have less free will. Thats not the same thing as having no agency, or lacking an ability to act in their perceived interests. Keep that in mind.
There are two main differences between Molly's Crown and "normal unlimited Intellectus":
1) Molly's Crown is more potent. It is, I remind you, a meta-ability that works Doylistically, not Watsonially - we are asking the Storyteller and they answer honestly. Nothing else in the story functions the same way, even White God's Omniscience, since it doesn't cover Outsiders. Uriel, notably, can't see Nemesis

2) Molly isn't bound by any rules. All others are. Further, Molly is Outside Fate and cannot be predicted.

The combination of these two things makes her far more dangerous than any other intellectus user or prophet.

Context matters.
Theres a reason the statement is "similar to" and not "the same as".
You are wildly misinterpreting the quote you are providing. Also, "similar" and "same" are considered to be synonyms by at least one dictionary [1], and in others are also taken as "alike but not identical" [2]; and Cambridge dictionary has "equivalent" as a synonym [3]. The answer talks about power levels. Nemesis is comparable to / equivalent to / akin to / indistinguishable from / close to Uriel in power levels. If they are not the same, they are close, and we don't know who is better - Nemesis might, in fact, from this quote, be more powerful. Given that Uriel doesn't know who all Nemesis infested are, that's a valid interpretation.
 
Context matters.
Theres a reason the statement is "similar to" and not "the same as".
If Butcher had said that they're a similar 'power' it'd be vague enough that I could see it your way. However he used the term power level as in, level of power. It's pretty straightforward.
 
There are two main differences between Molly's Crown and "normal unlimited Intellectus":
1) Molly's Crown is more potent. It is, I remind you, a meta-ability that works Doylistically, not Watsonially - we are asking the Storyteller and they answer honestly. Nothing else in the story functions the same way, even White God's Omniscience, since it doesn't cover Outsiders. Uriel, notably, can't see Nemesis

2) Molly isn't bound by any rules. All others are. Further, Molly is Outside Fate and cannot be predicted.

The combination of these two things makes her far more dangerous than any other intellectus user or prophet
Free will makes everyone complicated at best to predict in this age.

The crown is the core power of a solar exaltation so I agree with your point about it being incredibly powerful, but divination protection is less of a personal benefit and more a feature of the age.

I'd also like to point out that it's not just rules limiting everyone else. We never see anyone with an ability even close to the crown. Even without rules imposed from above Demonreach can't use intellectus on things disconnected from the island. The Skinwalkers can't use their power to see anything but how best to torture. Valkyries can't see anything but how you might die.

Harry didn't see the whole world, but he saw a lot. Asserting a bunch of peer level divination powers are running around but not doing anything for reasons is writing in the blank spaces of canon. There's no particular reason to support that interpretation over any other.
 
Pedantically - they can. They learn everything about "honored dead". In canon Gard talks about knowing everything about Murphy's life after Murphy dies. Which puts them (in my opinion) above naagloshii on the intellectus totem pole.
Still limited though.

I do think @uju32 has a point about us going too far into exalted supremacy at times, but that he's going too far in the opposite direction.

Areas like this are why exalted are scary. Many of their powers are "just" nasty but mostly just let them catch up to the big guys. Then every once in a while they turn into a planet or gain the ability to spy on god and things get wild for a bit.

My read is that the crown is less an unrestricted version of something already present in the setting and more the bottom falling off the paradigm at hand.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Aug 22, 2024 at 5:15 PM, finished with 80 posts and 7 votes.

  • [X] Molly, you can probably blast though any trouble the fastest, not to mention use the Crown to track them down fast
    -[X] Bring Sophia or Alex with her, leave the other in Last Station
    [X] Molly, you can probably blast though any trouble the fastest, not to mention use the Crown to track them down fast
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Aug 23, 2024 at 12:45 AM, finished with 82 posts and 7 votes.

  • [X] Molly, you can probably blast though any trouble the fastest, not to mention use the Crown to track them down fast
    -[X] Bring Sophia or Alex with her, leave the other in Last Station
    [X] Molly, you can probably blast though any trouble the fastest, not to mention use the Crown to track them down fast
 
No it isn't. You only think so because your deliberately choosing not to read Butcher's statement the way it was given and have found your very own definition for "power level" to apply here.

That's why you think the metaphor works, not because it makes sense here. A better comparison would be Mab and Titania.
Strongly disagree.
Mab and Titania would be peers, who play in the same weight class, and who in a 1v1 fight literally come down to a coin toss.
They wouldnt be described as similar, they would be described as the same power level.

Butcher notably didnt quote Uriel and Nemesis as peers, and never has.
He's never even described Nemesis and any of the angels as peers.


No idea what this is supposed to prove. I'll just remind you that Outsiders are limited in what they can do in reality, especially without all of themselves there.
What it demonstrates is the hierarchy, what Abridged!Popo would call the pecking order:)v), and what it means for tiers and threat ratings. Walkers are the....not minions, but minibosses for a god/gods that were kicked outside of the Outer Gates and have been kept there by the efforts of beings that rate rather less than basic angels.


The Fallen are also limited in what they can do in reality, but while sufficiently prepared wizards can contest Nemesis and its siblings, they cant actually contest Lucifer's homies. Not on their own.
Their mortal hosts sure, but not the Fallen themselves.

Keeping the Outsiders out at the Gates has been left largely to first gods, and now Fae, with a mortal wizard's involvement.
And yet the Fae actually go outside the Outer Gates, and fight the armies of the Outside to a standstill.

Meantime, the Fallen got 3 angels embodied in Swords and dedicated to keeping a boot on their necks almost as soon as they crawled out of Hell.
That tells me who the White God's faction considers an issue beyond the native inhabitants of this plan, and who arent.


So I dont find the limitations angle all that credible for explaining the pecking order inside Creation.
Not when Winter regularly goes out and fights them under their own terms Outside, where they cant actually complain about leaving any power behind.

Im not saying that the limitations dont exist.
But that even without them, it self-evidently doesnt allow them to overwhelm the Fae Courts, let alone put them in the class of members of the Celestial Host.


Hardly just my opinion. The vast majority would see it this way, your just being thick headed and obtuse about it. If Butcher meant something else he would've used different wording. He used a well known term with a commonly accepted meaning.
I've tracked down the passage and quoted it.
I think your interpretation, in line of the context where it was made, is wrong.

A net success on one side shouldn't change the initiation of a conversation, but in any case stonewalling him like that didn't take the opportunity to set an alternative to muddy the waters.

Odin is an intelligence broker and a man with an obscene number of secrets. I don't think he was threatening to immediately murder Molly or has failed to make the obvious observations about her relationship with the church, but when a guy standing on a huge pile of secrets tell you that people with something to hide aren't going to be happy about something it implicitly puts him in the same group.
Well, it does. I dont know what else to tell you. Thats how ExWoD is mechanically designd to function, as far as Im aware.

Talking about edging towards deception against someone with unknown information-gathering and archival resources, someone on whose friendly side we were endeavoring to stay, would have been foolish IMO.
You cant muddy the waters if the other guy has sonar. Or X-ray vision.

===
Odin is, among other things, an intelligence broker, but I think you misunderstand what that means in this scenario.
The dude was pretty openly a major god for millenia before accepting the new order, and there are significant sections of the supernatural who remember. Just like Corb remembers Mab in her youth pining after Merlin.

Stuff thats unknown to us Johnny-Come-Latelys are not necessarily secrets in the "Noone else knows" category.
Its just that the supernatural does not believe in all this "information wants to be free" philosophy.
You pay for information, and its usually a seller's market.
 
Arc 14 Post 10: Devil's Eye View
Devil's Eye View

18th of February 2007 A.D.

"I'm going..." The words are scarce out of your mouth that Carlos and Harry look about to argue. "How good are you at teleporting?"

"What?" Carlos looks nonplussed.

"Teleporting, you know, apparition." He smiles sheepishly at the reference. Hard to imagine those books have much of a following among older wizards, even Harry finds them annoying, though that might just be the name. "If this is a reaction to what we're doing than they are moving fast. Unless we can get inside that decision loop we are going to be stuck trying to clean up after them while they do God knows what on the other side of the world. I can't tell if this is meant to be a distraction, but that doesn't matter if we allow ourselves to be distracted."

While you'd been speaking Sophia showed up head down looking at her phone. "OK I got those hydrological maps you need. You can just use the outflow down the A7 tunnel to get into the lake..."

"How many of them are there?" Carlos asks Harry, trying to keep his voice down. For all the good it does in the echoey hall.

"Four at any one time," you answer for him. "Alex will stay here with you so you still have someone with good mobility..."

"Wait a second," Olivia cuts in. "Can't we all go? Or at least as many of us as might want to. We can just take a shortcut though Sanctuary. Since you can open the Way anywhere as long as you're there or there's the right music."

Harry gives her a grateful if not a little surprised look, not like he'd forgotten she was there exactly, more like he'd sorted her under 'kid' and moved on. "I think there should be at least one Warden in on this operation. Morgan isn't the most trusting sort on the best of days and I don't think two Mollys will make him trust you twice as much. Not to mention you might end up encountering one of the others who knows you even less than he does. Sure they're grateful for the weapons, but that doesn't mean they trust their arms dealer for back up."

"Come on she's not that..." Carlos trails off, Tiffany looks increasingly amused over his shoulder.

"What young Mr Ramirez can't quite bring himself to say is that you would make an suspicious messenger for the news that the Council has more worms in it than three week old street meat," she says. "While you have proven yourself to share common interests your judgement remain suspect in the eyes of elder wizards who see a great deal of power in the hands of a girl most of them would struggle to tell apart from Tina back there."

They don't really... that's a little insulting you have to admit, but you can kind of see where she's coming from. Still... "I don't think they'll be arguing with the cavalry when it shows up to get them out of the fangs. Claws and other appendages of the Red Court."

"Assuming the attack has already begun," she counters. "In what might otherwise be the ideal circumstance you would have to convince them to sacrifice their progress in Tres Fronteras. After all they did send a message back which means they are either pinned down or unwilling to abandon the search."

What do you do?

[] Take one of the Wardens with you
-[] Harry
-[] Carlos

[] If you're going to take other people might as well get more well rounded back-up
-[] Write in

[] No, you've convinced more stubborn people of more outlandish things, keep to the plan


OOC: A short update to get back into the swing of things. Still not feeling 100% but I wanted to get something out this morning.
 
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There are two main differences between Molly's Crown and "normal unlimited Intellectus":
1) Molly's Crown is more potent. It is, I remind you, a meta-ability that works Doylistically, not Watsonially - we are asking the Storyteller and they answer honestly. Nothing else in the story functions the same way, even White God's Omniscience, since it doesn't cover Outsiders. Uriel, notably, can't see Nemesis

2) Molly isn't bound by any rules. All others are. Further, Molly is Outside Fate and cannot be predicted.

The combination of these two things makes her far more dangerous than any other intellectus user or prophet.
1) This isnt actually true.
The Mothers have Intellectus that can apparently see into the future, unimpeded by free will. Angels have intellectus that appears to account for free will, as evidenced in The Warrior short story with Uriel, and in Battle Grounds with Mac.

2) Only partly true.
Gard for example, has as much free will as she chooses to exercise; in canon, Dresden was fated to die in Dead Beat.
She saved his life and explicitly altered his fate.

You are wildly misinterpreting the quote you are providing.
I disagree. And Im pretty sure you are misinterpreting the colloqial use of English by Butcher.
But I dont think we are convincing each other.
And I need to go take my Covid meds.
 
I dunno if taking Dresden along will make Morgan more comfortable with Molly Squared. Carlos is decent enough to not be a liability and more importantly has Morgan's trust, or at least lack of Dresden-tier suspicion, so let's grab him.
 
Personal opinion: Go alone. Its an extraction, not a strike; you want to be high speed and low drag.

We've been told that other people can hear when Molly Prime opens a Gate to Sanctuary.
Demonreach apparently could, and when we went to Vegas, a bunch of Red Court vampires showed up to check the spot where Molly arrived at. In South America its likely to have even faster response, especially in a zone with ongoing combat.

Therefore, taking a war party that requires opening a Sanctuary gate is a bad idea because it will announce Molly has left Chicago. We dont want to broadcast Molly's movements to the conspiracy, or the Red Court.
Nor do we want a beacon for a Lord of Outer Night; Id rather ambush than be ambushed.


Molly has 4 clones at the moment. Leave one in Sanctuary as the safety in case Molly gets killed. A second(Pods) in Chicago.
Then have Molly Prime + Sophia(Dragonmage clone) + Alex (Protector clone) RVD to the Amazon and show up without announcing their presence until they have found the wizards.

Have Carlos AND Harry write notes. They are at war, they have the appropriate passwords.
 
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[X] Plan Superior Force
-[X] If you're going to take other people might as well get more well rounded back-up
--[X] Lydia and her hounds
--[X] Olivia
--[X] Tiffany
--[X] Carlos
--[X] Harry


If we're going to be bringing along people using our kingdom we might as well bring enough that we can disintegrate any opposition we might come up against even if that is Morgan himself. Not to mention even though we have a map of the river basin Dresden is the only person with magic that is focused on finding people and Lydia has hunting dogs. We also don't have to use any focuses or essence to search the fucking Amazon the largest rainforest on Earth for a small Detachment of men.
 
1) This isnt actually true.
The Mothers have Intellectus that can apparently see into the future, unimpeded by free will. Angels have intellectus that appears to account for free will, as evidenced in The Warrior short story with Uriel, and in Battle Grounds with Mac.

2) Only partly true.
Gard for example, has as much free will as she chooses to exercise; in canon, Dresden was fated to die in Dead Beat.
She saved his life and explicitly altered his fate.
1) Citation needed. Also, even if they can see the future - that's just Samsara in the setting (appropriate, since they are mainlining Maiden power), and wouldn't account fully for player decisions.

2) That's wild extrapolation and no limits fallacy. Ability to express some free will doesn't mean unrestricted free will.
I disagree. And Im pretty sure you are misinterpreting the colloqial use of English by Butcher.
But I dont think we are convincing each other.
And I need to go take my Covid meds.
Ok, let me ask you - how would have Butcher needed to formulate his thoughts for you to take it to read "Nemesis is the same / similar power level as Uriel"? Because I am having trouble formulating it as anything but like what he used.

Carlos is an asset because he's supposed to be subverted, and he isn't. At least some members of the conspiracy might be surprised by that. We also isn't read into our Crown and some of the other abilities, limiting our ability to operate in his presence. So, no on him.

Harry needs to be contacting Ebeneezer and doing prep right now. Damn, it's a shame that we cannot take Michael. He would have helped a lot.

[X] No, you've convinced more stubborn people of more outlandish things, keep to the plan

[X] Take one of the Wardens with you
-[X] Harry


One of these two is workable.
 
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Butcher notably didnt quote Uriel and Nemesis as peers, and never has.
He's never even described Nemesis and any of the angels as peers.
Butcher stated that Uriel and Nemesis are at a similar level of power. Enough said.


What it demonstrates is the hierarchy, what Abridged!Popo would call the pecking order:)v
How the hell does your quote demonstrate that? They called him the right hand of "The slowest terror". Do you know the strength of the "slowest terror"?

We don't know who or what that is because we never got that information anywhere. You are so biased it hurts.

And no whatever they are they don't need to be at White God level just stronger than Archangels.

The Fallen are also limited in what they can do in reality, but while sufficiently prepared wizards can contest Nemesis and its siblings, they cant actually contest Lucifer's homies. Not on their own.
Their mortal hosts sure, but not the Fallen themselves.
Nemesis has a ton of weird rules and limitations as to where and when he can use his power. We don't know what those are. Fallen and Walkers are not the same thing.

False equivalency.

So I dont find the limitations angle all that credible for explaining the pecking order inside Creation.
Not when Winter regularly goes out and fights them under their own terms Outside, where they cant actually complain about leaving any power behind.

Im not saying that the limitations dont exist.
But that even without them, it self-evidently doesnt allow them to overwhelm the Fae Courts, let alone put them in the class of members of the Celestial Host
We have little to no context on what tier of Outsider they fight out there. They could come across nothing like a Walker, there are only three confirmed. Your making assumptions based on nothing and expecting others to fill in the blanks the exact same way you've chosen to.

This position is unsubstantiated and unreasonable.

We've no reason to believe Nemesis is built for direct combat or that's it's skills would be relevant in such an environment. Doesn't mean that it's weaker just that it's power applies in non-conventional ways. Which is a common thing in DF.


I've tracked down the passage and quoted it.
I think your interpretation, in line of the context where it was made, is wrong.
Butcher said-

HHWB, being a Walker, is an outsider on a power level similar to Uriel. He can do all KINDS of stuff. But also has a lot of weird limits as to when and where he can use his power.



This means, because Nemesis is a Walker his level of power is similar to Uriel. That's all that needs to be said. The statement is direct, plain and obvious in its meaning. Common sense would have one read that statement in only one way.

Edit: Corrections.
 
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[X] No, you've convinced more stubborn people of more outlandish things, keep to the plan
-[X] "Opening Gates to Sanctuary is very metaphysically loud, as you should remember. If there's possibility of being ganked on exit, I'd rather go alone and keep advantage of stealth"

For once, I agree with uju.
 
Opening Gates to Sanctuary is very metaphysically loud, as you should remember.
What? That's not true, as far as I can tell. It was detected only once, in Vegas, with a very tight detection network, and even then it was detected as a low priority event, as indicated by the dispatched force. The loud event was creation of Sanctuary.
 
VOTE
[X]Plan Anaconda
-[X] No, you've convinced more stubborn people of more outlandish things, keep to the plan
-[X]Sophia + Alex + written notes from Harry+Carlos
-[X]STUNT: You consider the proposals for a moment, then shake your head firmly. "Sanctuary gates appear to be magically detectable to some, and we dont know who else is down there. I'd prefer to keep the element of surprise as long as possible." You check to see your phone is secured, then meet Harry in the eye, then Carlos, then Olivia. "Better to sweettalk some old fossils" a smile tugs at the corner of Lydia's mouth at your words "Than to cut our way through the human mercs and thralls the Red Court will put in the way of an obvious force. Just write me a note."



RATIONALE
Demonreach could detect Molly opening hellgates in Chicago according to the QM, and there's a non-zero chance that there's a Duke or Lord of Outer Night or Outsider-aligned magic user in the area of operations who can do the same thing.
Let's avoid a repeat of Las Vegas, where our arrival alerted the enemy we were in town.

In Dead Beat, there was an army of human mercs employed by the Red Court in central Africa to attack the Warden hospital before it got nerve gassed. In Changes, there was an organized force of around two hundred armed mercenaries(NOT government) at Chitchen Itza that Ebenezar killed.

The Reds use armed mortals as meat shields, and Tres Fronteras is pretty lawless according to Wikipedia
The area is noted for its natural beauty. Cities in the Tres Fronteras area include Tabatinga (in Brazil), Leticia (in Colombia), and Santa Rosa de Yavari (in Peru) on an island in the Amazon River.
=====
According to Fabricio Amorim from Fundação Nacional do Índio, the region contains "the greatest concentration of isolated groups in the Amazon and the world".[2][3]
=====
A UN report said that the hotspot where a reporter was killed."probably [had] among the densest concentration of organized crime groups on earth".[4] In June 2022 Guardian reporter Dom Phillips and his companion Bruno Pereira were killed in Tabatinga in the Vale do Javari.[5]

The region is known for being a trafficking route for cocaine.[6] Illegal activities, like fishing (mostly to export pirarucu and piracatinga),[7] logging and mining, help criminal groups linked to drug trafficking to launder money and import more drugs to Brazil.[8][9][10
3x towns/cities in the area with a total of >100k people.


We can expect to run into significant numbers of humans working for the Red Court, whether willingly, by blackmail, or under the influence of the Presence Discipline, especially Presence 1: Awe and Presence 5: Majesty. The Red Court will have no issue throwing them at her to stall her. And thats not counting Outsiders and Rampires and other demons like the Ick-class.

The White Council has problems with killing large numbers of mortals without magic, and its probably better for Molly's state of mind and reputation(and Olivia. And Lydia.) to avoid having to slaughter their way through them.

So stealth and speed are her friends here, because its hard to search for 4-5 wizards while fending off Red Court mooks.
This is an extraction, not a punitive strike.

======
@Yog
@BoredMan
I'll try and get to your comments later in the day hopefully.
 
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