Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

This is Council's own standard operating procedure. And the story would go something like "We have observed someone hijacking one of the trainee's senses. We tracked the effect back to the source. Found an outsider cultist. Oh, he was an infiltrator? How fortunate that I took him out".
Yes exactly.. as in its protocols for the Council not outsiders. Though even then they seem to prefer trials not immediate execution. Bottom line, this isn't clear cut as your making it out to be it is an option but it would also have ramifications that aren't entirely positive.
 
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I pointed this out very recently, that wizards/mages specifically were allowed to attempt to fuck with Exalted charms.
Thats a rule in ExWoD.
Its not easy, but it is possible.

And Molly did not have EIPP up anyway.
… The whole premise of my argument here is that they shouldn't be able to and that if they are then in shouldn't be this easy. You're kinda ignoring the point.

Carlos has been a wizard for about the same amount of time as he was in high school and could make an attempt at the same dice he'd use for countering any random effect off the street. Because we can't really modify this roll he's working against a 3 dice disadvantage for a majority of our powers. That's not great, but it's better than he's going to get any other way.

Prior to hitting essence 4 he'd have been so close to us that difference doesn't matter.

Moreover, things vulnerable to this become more common as the price of charms increases. They have a lot of direct on/off effects instead of demanding you roll for everything.

If Carlos wants to pierce BMI he can either open his Sight with all the risk that entails, do a bunch of work to get something else that has any chance of working, or throw a blind counterspell at it and see what he gets. Up till e4 he basically would have had an even chance of that working.

See what I mean about this making things less interesting? The answer is always counterspell, anything else is a waste of time.


Countermagic is a DC8 reflexive roll for most people, and unlike Exalts with Excellencies, most people cap at 10 dice.
Thats why even wizards will preferentially try to duck or dodge than to counterspell. And thats assuming its even something you can counterspell; you generally cant counterspell a lightning bolt or other direct attack.
You were the one posting rotes for this the other day. We also saw the blampire blind counter us with almost as many dice as we had for MiM despite the fact that the charm is technically doing something conventionally considered impossible by DF standards.

I'm beginning to regret starting another round of this argument, beginning to feel like I'm pointlessly stirring shit up.

If this is the law of the land then we need to start working on something to patch the obvious glowing weak point before someone makes us regret it.
 
… The whole premise of my argument here is that they shouldn't be able to and that if they are then in shouldn't be this easy. You're kinda ignoring the point.

Carlos has been a wizard for about the same amount of time as he was in high school and could make an attempt at the same dice he'd use for countering any random effect off the street. Because we can't really modify this roll he's working against a 3 dice disadvantage for a majority of our powers. That's not great, but it's better than he's going to get any other way.

Prior to hitting essence 4 he'd have been so close to us that difference doesn't matter.

Moreover, things vulnerable to this become more common as the price of charms increases. They have a lot of direct on/off effects instead of demanding you roll for everything.

If Carlos wants to pierce BMI he can either open his Sight with all the risk that entails, do a bunch of work to get something else that has any chance of working, or throw a blind counterspell at it and see what he gets. Up till e4 he basically would have had an even chance of that working.

See what I mean about this making things less interesting? The answer is always counterspell, anything else is a waste of time.

Carlos would not be able to do anything to something as esoteric as BMI, he would not know where to start, assuming he would know there is anything there which without the Sight he cannot. He aimed for the Transcendent Amathema because it was the only thing in your suit he understood well enough to counter-spell. This is not WoD and evocation is limited in fidelity. Unless someone has an anti-BMI rote... which seems unlikely given where that comes from you are fine on that.
 
Here is my my tweak to suggest to make it more palpatable for counterspell issue.

Let us add add our dot in target charm to our arete dice pool. So a 1 dot charm is 9 dice and 5 dot charm is 13 dice. It would make sense with more dots equal more complex and scaling means its still possible for mages with rituals and such but not so easily that a random mage can shut us down.

Also another option would be to make their counter spell roll at our willpower difficulty, because they are trying to overcome our will directly.
 
Here is my my tweak to suggest to make it more palpatable for counterspell issue.

Let us add add our dot in target charm to our arete dice pool. So a 1 dot charm is 9 dice and 5 dot charm is 13 dice. It would make sense with more dots equal more complex and scaling means its still possible for mages with rituals and such but not so easily that a random mage can shut us down.

Also another option would be to make their counter spell roll at our willpower difficulty, because they are trying to overcome our will directly.

Adding the dot value of charms does make sense, it would be a good way to model that you need to be a very skilled wizard in this universe to affect charms at all and you need to b that and prepared to affect the high powered ones.
 
I did want to correct the whole idea that the setting would be better off without the Accords. Which is a lot like arguing the world would be better without the UN.

In that metaphor, humanity as a whole is a non-Security Council member of the UN, while everyone on the SC has an incentive to screw over humanity. Certainly there would be more chaos without the Accords, but the state of affairs as they stand is also unacceptable. Joining the Accords lends them credibility, considering Molly's importance. Constructing a new world order on the rotting foundations of the corrupt predecessor is not a good idea.
 
Yes? No one will claim otherwise. The question is: if they can do this to us why can't we do it to them in return?

I agree with @BronzeTongue, with Ikutsu I can accept, reluctantly because he is a very ancient and powerful being, the deactivation of our charms, but for a new wizard, since as mentioned he hasn't been a Guardian for long? In combat time?

@DragonParadox this really doesn't work.
Because we are not a wizard.
This is something that Holden wrote up for wizards. Exalted supremacy is not in play in the World of Darkness.
Its working as intended.

Also note that you explicitly cant counterspell direct damage spells; if someone throws a fireball at you, its parry or dodge.
M20 p541 said:
Night-Folk Counterspelling
Vampires, werewolves, faerie beings, and other paranormal entities have a chance to resist a mage's Arts… and the
mages can often resist Night-Folks' abilities too. Although such monsters don't use countermagick in the way that mages
do, their innate abilities give them a certain degree of protection.

Dice Pools
Night-Folk can use the equivalent of basic countermagick. Instead of Arete, such entities use their Wits + Occult as a dice
pool. However, that dice pool cannot exceed the Gnosis or Rage (whichever is higher, for werecreatures), Willpower
(vampires, spirits, wraiths, demons, hunters, and hedge wizards), Glamour (changelings and other fae), Mystic Shield
(Bygones), or True Faith (faithful humans) Trait of the Night-Folk character. Essentially, those Traits reflect the metaphysical
capacity of the target character. If a werewolf, for instance, has a Wits + Occult dice pool of six but a Gnosis of 4 and
a Rage of 3, then she cannot use more than four dice as countermagick.

If the targeted creature does not have a Wits + Occult dice pool, then the Storyteller may rule that the character cannot
resist True Magick – see Optional Limits, below. That said, a mage needs certain Spheres in order to harm a member
of the Night-Folk. As shown on the Common Magickal Effects chart (p. 508), Life Sphere magick alone cannot
affect vampires, werebeasts, ghosts, spirits, or the fae.

Difficulties and Limits
Whatever dice pool you employ, the difficulty for such rolls is either 7 or the mage's Arete, whichever is higher. This way, a powerful werewolf or vampire can shrug off the Arts of an amateur mage, but a powerful wizard or Technocrat can wipe the floor with supernatural foes.

On a related note, the Night-Folk cannot counter immediate-damage attacks like plasma bolts or Enlightened martial arts, nor can they oppose indirect assaults like weakened floors, fire, typhoons, and so forth. The only way to counter a mage's attack is to recognize it as a mystic assault. Thaumaturgical counterspells won't prevent a Virtual Adept from
using Enlightened hypertech to hack the vampire prince's bank account.


Mages Countering the Night-Folk
When countering the effects of some paranormal critters' Disciplines, Gifts, Glamour, and so forth, a mage uses her
Arete as the dice pool. The Storyteller may rule that the mage needs certain Spheres in order to counter certain abilities
– Mind, perhaps, to counter vampiric Dominate; Spirit to counter werewolf Gifts; Entropy and Spirit to counter a wraith's
Arcanoi; Mind and Prime to counter the dreamlike powers of the fae, and so on. After all, it's not as though mages corner
the market on supernatural abilities… and although they certainly appear to be the masters of paranormal arts, mages
have a hard time seeing beyond their own perspectives on reality.

Optional Limits
As an optional rule, the Storyteller may decide that a Night-Folk or mortal character cannot use countermagick at all unless he's
got some sort of magical knowledge. A vampire, for instance, may need the Thaumaturgy Discipline (or some other discipline
that reflects mystic study and understanding) in order to resist a mage's Arts. A hedge sorcerer could counter spells by default,
but most other humans could not. Werecreatures, spirits, Bygones, and the fae are magic(k)al by their essential nature, but theymight still need at least one dot in Occult or Rituals in order to understand the mage's spells enough to counter them.

Given the vulnerability that fae creatures have to the banality of Technocratic accomplishments, it's fair to rule that
changelings cannot counterspell technomagick at all… or, if they can, to raise the difficulty of doing so to 9 or even 10.
For more details about the Night-Folk, see the section of that name in see the Mage 20 sourcebook Gods, Monsters,
and Familiar Strangers.
This too is working as intended.

The knights are not, as far as I know, associated with Roman Catholic Church at all, on the institutional basis. Michael is, but that's because he's a devout catholic.
Yes they are.
They give the captured Coins to the Roman Catholic Church for safekeeping, and have for centuries.
They dont take orders from the Church; the Church follows behind them, and provides what support it can.

Also, note that of everyone we've seen carry or act as custodian for a Sword in the Dresden Files books, only Michael was Catholic. Shiro was Baptist. Sanya is agnostic. Butters is a Jew.
Dresden is an agnostic. Murphy we dont know about. Susan we dont know about.

The Catholic Church provided logistic support for them anyway whenever it was needed.

What we are observing here is almost certainly a Law violation. And as soon as we are in his presence in War Form, we can claim to sense Outsider corruption on him. From there, unless he just allows himself to be killed (unlikely), there'll be plenty of evidence in out fight.
We cannot do that, and would not be allowed to do that. We do have to provide evidence for this.
Much the same reason that Morgan wasnt allowed to execute Dresden out of hand in Storm Front; he had to take him back to the Council

We can accuse him of being a Law breaker, which would put the cat among the pigeons; he almost certainly cannot afford to be examined under the Sight, or to stand the scrutiny of an internal investigation.
Especially if we can demonstrate that there are other people under the influence.
 
We cannot do that, and would not be allowed to do that. We do have to provide evidence for this.
Much the same reason that Morgan wasnt allowed to execute Dresden out of hand in Storm Front; he had to take him back to the Council

We can accuse him of being a Law breaker, which would put the cat among the pigeons; he almost certainly cannot afford to be examined under the Sight, or to stand the scrutiny of an internal investigation.
Especially if we can demonstrate that there are other people under the influence.
Also Molly introduced herself as Queen of the Five Fold Courts. If we just kill him off hand it's guaranteed to cause political friction.
 
[X] Yog

Normally, I would be worried about causing a hostile misunderstanding with the Wizards, but this is Carlos and some kids. We can handle this and then explain it.

The Knights also have the Catholic Church for that, if its absolutely necessary.
Supernatural players know how to reach contacts in the Vatican.

The Church isn't a signatory either. And exactly like them, supernatural players should by now know how to reach us, too.

I did want to correct the whole idea that the setting would be better off without the Accords. Which is a lot like arguing the world would be better without the UN.

I'm honestly not seeing anything in the Accords that benefits the mundane humanity, except:
1) The safety of small number of mundanes who happen to work or live close to Neutral Ground.
2) The parts that coordinate keeping up the Masquerade. Which comes with the assumption that the damage from unmanaged fall of Masquerade would outweigh the benefits of humanity becoming aware of the dangers it needs to protect itself from. Which I do agree with, though, so it stays as a positive.

Outside of that, I would say that to the mundanes Accords are less UN, and more like the Concert of Europe from the perspective of Africans.

The issue is, that even if the Accords are better than what came before, they are not good enough with what we would like to replace them with. So any commitment to them should be seen from the perspective of how easy would it eventually be to leave them and try to replace them. Can it be done without pissing Mab of? Wouldn't it be better from that perspective to not join in the first place, to preemptively avoid that avenue of conflict?

We dont need to sign them; we can follow them without being a signatory, and I suspect a lot of people might find it convenient for Molly to not be a signatory while appearing to follow it.

I totally agree with that, except I would correct that we wouldn't really be following the Accords in spirit or something, but the old world rules they are based on and codified.
 
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… The whole premise of my argument here is that they shouldn't be able to and that if they are then in shouldn't be this easy. You're kinda ignoring the point.
1) The canon for ExWoD is that the Infernal Exaltations were imprisoned in Yomi Wan, so it was always theortically possible.


2) As for difficulty, they(the wizard) roll at DC8.
The Exalt rolls at DC6, and can apply additional DC adjusters and bonuses as far as I can tell. Without Honor would add dice.
BSM would proc; so would King and Kingdom, and CCC,TLF and Pentacle and Scepter, each making shit progressively easier.

So if you have Carlos rolling Arete 5 at DC8, he averages 2 successes rounded up.
Molly rolling Arete 8 at DC 6 averages 4 successes.Molly rolling Arete 8 with BSM active is rolling at DC 5(DC6-1) which averages 5 successes, rounded up.

And so on.

And critically, the wizard is using their full Action for the turn to try to counterspell Molly's charms. While Molly is doing it reflexively. Which means she can still cut that wizard's head off in that same turn, unless the wizard has backup protection, or is running a rote that gives them multiple Actions that turn.

You were the one posting rotes for this the other day. We also saw the blampire blind counter us with almost as many dice as we had for MiM despite the fact that the charm is technically doing something conventionally considered impossible by DF standards.
The Blampire's patron contested us, it didnt counter us.
We were in a roll-off for opposing effects.

====
For reference, these are the countermagick rules for ExWoD:
ExWoD p247 said:
Countermagick and Similar Interactions
The Exalted have an array of Charms with which
to protect themselves from various curses and other
forms of hostile magic too esoteric to avoid by step-
ping out of the way quickly. For those who lack those
Charms, rules for crude and dirty fighting back against
magick can be found on page 546 of M20 (use the rules
for vampires and other Willpower-based critters, spe-
cifically). This book does recommend that such crude
counterspells be restricted to those with at least Occult
2+, and that the character needs to understand they're
being targeted by magic and trying to counter it.

What if a mage wants to try to use magick to rip
apart a Charm, though? Or ancient sorcery spell?

In general, the mage devises some sort of effect to dis-
rupt or counter the Charm, then makes a contested roll
against the Exalt's activation roll. If the mage gets more
successes, the effect is disrupted. If there isn't an activation
roll, then consult the Essence/Arete-equivalency chart in
Chapter Two, and have the Exalt roll her effective Arete
against difficulty 6 to establish a mark to beat.


Magick and Essence
In general, screwing around with an Exalt's Es-
sence – and, by extension, screwing around with her
Charms and other powers – always requires Prime.
Seeing Essence in action takes Prime 1. Moving it
around from place to place requires at least Prime 3,
and transforming it into Quintessence (or vice-versa)
requires both Prime 5 and Spirit 5.


Sidereals form a slight exception. Detecting, inter-
fering with, and protecting against Sidereal destiny ma-
nipulation requires Entropy, or conjunctional Entropy
and Prime if that manipulation is charged with Essence.


Adding the dot value of charms does make sense, it would be a good way to model that you need to be a very skilled wizard in this universe to affect charms at all and you need to b that and prepared to affect the high powered ones.
If you were going to do that, you'd be better off benchmarking off Essence.
As an E4 Exalt, Molly would be the equivalent of an Arete 8 archmage; against a wizard of lower Arete who has the skill to try to contest a Charm, Molly would get bonuses.

Say, she gets (Exalt Arete - enemy wizard Arete) dice or successes as a bonus when a wizard is trying to counterspell one of her Charms.
 
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Carlos would not be able to do anything to something as esoteric as BMI, he would not know where to start, assuming he would know there is anything there which without the Sight he cannot. He aimed for the Transcendent Amathema because it was the only thing in your suit he understood well enough to counter-spell. This is not WoD and evocation is limited in fidelity. Unless someone has an anti-BMI rote... which seems unlikely given where that comes from you are fine on that.
TA isn't fire, it's a weird hell spite curse right? If it was just fire it wouldn't do Agg to everything by default. A nuclear sub and a diesel sub are superficially the same but work very differently under the hood. Making decisions based on one working like the other is a good way to get in trouble.

In our case here he went "this looks like fire, so let's try dousing it" and that worked just as well as if it was actually fire. If he looked at BMI and went "looks like a disguise, let's wash it away" he'd be just as wrong about the details. Why does it matter in one case but not the other?

This ties into the three big issues I have from a game design perspective with this stuff:

1) The barriers to entry feel completely arbitrary. What constitutes enough knowledge for a particular effect and which things are subject to what from who in the first place is impossible to predict. On the spot I don't have any idea how to judge if someone has a rote that works on BMI or what's needed to make one.

Another example is RR; they're kinda weird demon body parts, but at least some can be turned off. Is our free floating flight a spell effect or spiritual wings? Do you just need to know air magic to clip them, or something more exotic to reflect how they work?

2) By design the system limits our ability to influence the outcome by our own actions. Single digit differences in dice make this a somewhat swingy proposition, especially since rotes exist that allow other people to buff their counter magic.

3) The rules for what people do to counter us are also unclear. That blampire we killed was defended by a powerful ritual that was presumably not cast by some with the equivalent of 20 Arete. If we'd say had spawning pit sanctification and used it on him we'd have been opposing 20 dice with 6. To my eye it was a fluke that it was possible for us to win that exchange in the first place.

I'm not sure how we're supposed to tell anything about anything involving this, much less do something about it.

Pinning everything down in painful detail isn't a good solution, but can you see why this is driving me nuts?
 
We cannot do that, and would not be allowed to do that. We do have to provide evidence for this.
Much the same reason that Morgan wasnt allowed to execute Dresden out of hand in Storm Front; he had to take him back to the Council

We can accuse him of being a Law breaker, which would put the cat among the pigeons; he almost certainly cannot afford to be examined under the Sight, or to stand the scrutiny of an internal investigation.
Especially if we can demonstrate that there are other people under the influence.
Yes we can. It would be a bit politically inconvenient for us for a brief period of time, but we absolutely can murder Peabody in cold blood for the act of spying on us alone by means of Law violations. We gave shelter and our protection to baby wizards. He (or whoever it is) violated it by using one of them as a spy in a way that almost certainly breaks "though shalt not invade the mind of Another". We are well within our feudal rights to teleport up to him, rip his still beating out of his chest and feed it to him. That we can point out evidence of his Law breaking afterwards is just a cherry on top.

Any and all accusations should happen after the offending body is dead. Kill first, as quickly as possible. Then do the legal thing.

Remember - we are not a White Court member. We are a peer to Yama Kings, to Mab and Titania in some - an Empress of our own realm who can credibly fight if not the whole senior council put together, than any of them, and likely any two of them, and whose support is critical for their war, which is, I remind you, an existential war to total enslavement or extermination.

If we can bind him and chain him and drag him in front of the council, sure, that's better. If we can't? Don't hesitate to kill and explain later. I am certainly favoring the immediate overwhelming response. That - reacting far faster than anyone can anticipate and with far more power, has been our winning strategy so far.
Atheist. He is an atheist.
 
1) The canon for ExWoD is that the Infernal Exaltations were imprisoned in Yomi Wan, so it was always theortically possible.


2) As for difficulty, they(the wizard) roll at DC8.
The Exalt rolls at DC6, and can apply additional DC adjusters and bonuses as far as I can tell. Without Honor would add dice.
BSM would proc; so would King and Kingdom, and CCC,TLF and Pentacle and Scepter, each making shit progressively easier.

So if you have Carlos rolling Arete 5 at DC8, he averages 2 successes rounded up.
Molly rolling Arete 8 at DC 6 averages 4 successes.Molly rolling Arete 8 with BSM active is rolling at DC 5(DC6-1) which averages 5 successes, rounded up.

And so on.

And critically, the wizard is using their full Action for the turn to try to counterspell. While Molly is doing it reflexively.
Which means she can still cut that wizard's head off in that same turn, unless the wizard has backup protection, or is running a rote that gives them multiple Actions that turn.
1) I think it's fair to say that imprisoning the exaltations took some doing by people with a lot of insider knowledge.

2) Very few charms touch essence rolls. As far as I'm aware WHWH, BSM, and CCC are it. Which benefits Infernals, but on a small number of dice that aren't key the difference isn't great. Especially with numbers or someone using rotes to buff their countermagick.

The action economy of it doesn't solve the core problem when wizards aren't the only ones using this system. Iku did it too.

The Blampire's patron contested us, it didnt counter us.
We were in a roll-off for opposing effects.
The counterspelling rules are the contested effect roll off, that's how counter magic works in the first place.

The entire point is to replace rolling your direct magic skills against each other with a much smaller Arete score roll off. That's why you the wizard needs to have relevant spheres and devise a means to counter the effect.


On the rules you quoted; worth noting it allows Ancient Sorcery to be contested the same way, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case here. This isn't the same setting, the rules have been tweaked multiple times to support DF like behavior.
 
Yes we can. It would be a bit politically inconvenient for us for a brief period of time, but we absolutely can murder Peabody in cold blood for the act of spying on us alone by means of Law violations.
Think about how this would come across IRL. During the last interlude we got on the WC they were having intense debates on Molly. Then we murder one of their most trusted friends because we caught them breaking one of their Laws without so much as a by your leave. The Queen of a nation can't act like that without garnering a reputation similar to Mab. Which I don't believe is what we've been going for.
 
Think about how this would come across IRL. During the last interlude we got on the WC they were having intense debates on Molly. Then we murder one of their most trusted friends because we caught them breaking one of their Laws without so much as a by your leave. The Queen of a nation can't act like that without garnering a reputation similar to Mab. Which I don't believe is what we've been going for.
The wizard trainees are under our protection at this moment. We are allowed, expected, and in fact obligated to respond with lethal force to someone attacking them. Making one of them a sleeper agent with Law-breaking magic is a direct, potentially worse-than-lethal (as in "fate worse than death") attack. Compounding that with how it's being used to spy on us, we are not just fully within our rights to attack whoever (I am not sure it's Peabody) orchestrated it. We are expected to do so.
 
The wizard trainees are under our protection at this moment. We are allowed, expected, and in fact obligated to respond with lethal force to someone attacking them. Making one of them a sleeper agent with Law-breaking magic is a direct, potentially worse-than-lethal (as in "fate worse than death") attack. Compounding that with how it's being used to spy on us, we are not just fully within our rights to attack whoever (I am not sure it's Peabody) orchestrated it. We are expected to do so.
Thats not how politics work. It is certainly an angle we can argue but not everyone on the WC will see it this way.
 
Thats not how politics work. It is certainly an angle we can argue but not everyone on the WC will see it this way.
Not modern politics, no. Feudal politics which form the basis of supernatural inter-organizational politics? Certainly do, at least in some cases. It's a far bloodier, and honor-based system of relationships. Guest rights is one of the oldest, and thus most magically potent, traditions there is.
 
Thats not how politics work. It is certainly an angle we can argue but not everyone on the WC will see it this way.
Yeah. Translate this to irl nations and see if it sounds the same @Yog.

If you're hosting a joint training exercise with a new ally's military and find out that one of the cadets is being horrifically abused by an offsite political appointee you can't send assassins to the other nation's capital to kill them.

Bringing evidence to a trustworthy member and blitzing the guy together is a different matter.
 
Not modern politics, no. Feudal politics which form the basis of supernatural inter-organizational politics? Certainly do, at least in some cases. It's a far bloodier, and honor-based system of relationships. Guest rights is one of the oldest, and thus most magically potent, traditions there is.
If we do as you want, Molly would be the Queen of a foreign superpower enacting her will on the White Council to kill one of it's members. It's not a black and white situation doing this sort of thing sets a dangerous precedent that they aren't likely to ignore.
 
[X] Yog

They may not like it, but someone used the mind of one of the children we agreed to protect to spy on our capabilities. Regardless of whether it was breaking the law or not, we have every right to respond lethally for this attempted espionage.

Just like they or any other faction has the right to do whatever they want with spies they catch.

And I will like to act as true Queen and not just wait to WC to chose what to do.
 
In that metaphor, humanity as a whole is a non-Security Council member of the UN, while everyone on the SC has an incentive to screw over humanity. Certainly there would be more chaos without the Accords, but the state of affairs as they stand is also unacceptable. Joining the Accords lends them credibility, considering Molly's importance. Constructing a new world order on the rotting foundations of the corrupt predecessor is not a good idea.
Its no more unacceptable than it is now when three of the UNSC members come from the West, with only one from Asia and none from Africa or Latin America.
It has nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with the power balance and geopolitical stability.

Our joining the Accords does nothing for their credibility. The Jade Court canonically arent members. The Yama Kings arent either IIRC, even though they appear to respect the provisions. Furthermore, acceptance to the Accords is deliberately gated; you have to find people willing to sponsor you to get in, and I dont see any reason why we'd want to spend the political capital.


Im not saying we should join the Accords.
I dont think we need the reputational boost, we can be Accords compliant without Accords membership, and I think we can find the implications of not being a signatory useful.

I do think that as things exist, we and most of the setting are best served with Molly being outside the Accords, and...incentivizing Accord signatories to interpret their obligations more rigorously.
But I find the histrionics about the Accords oppressing Humanity to be tiresome, because they arent true.

In our case here he went "this looks like fire, so let's try dousing it" and that worked just as well as if it was actually fire. If he looked at BMI and went "looks like a disguise, let's wash it away" he'd be just as wrong about the details. Why does it matter in one case but not the other?
Its plausible for 'Los because, translating Water Magic to MtA mechanics, he's a user of the Entropy Sphere.
His combat shield is built along entropy principles of erosion and dissipating.

He'd have a much easier time of this than, say, a Life Sphere user.
Or a Matter/Forces user who thought in terms of elemental effects and trying to douse a Charm effect.
Yes we can. It would be a bit politically inconvenient for us for a brief period of time, but we absolutely can murder Peabody in cold blood for the act of spying on us alone by means of Law violations.
No we cannot.

Spying is not an Accords violation. He isnt even breaking guest right, as far as I can tell. The Accords do not enforce the Laws.
Even the Fae would not murder you out of hand for spying or trespass, and your rights do not extend to following a perpetrator out of your domain into someone else's in order to try to kill them.

When the Fomori cantrev-lord Mag tried this with Justine in Even Hand by pursuing Justine into Marcone territory, Marcone was ajudged within his rights to kill the dude and mail his body home.

And no, it would not be slightly politically inconvenient.
It would be a political shitstorm of epic proportions, and it would blow up our carefully crafted image among the players we are trying to court and burn our credibility with the Council.
Atheist. He is an atheist.
He's said both in Death Masks chapter 7.
He looked at me blankly.
"No one appreciates me," I muttered. "Wicca is a religion. It's a little more fluid than most, but it's still a religion."
"And?"
"And I'm not really big on religion. I do magic, sure, but it's like - being a mechanic. Or an engineer. There are forces that behave a certain way. If you know what you're doing, you can get them to work for you, and you don't really need a god or a goddess or a whatever to get involved."
Sanya's expression became surprised. "You are not a religious man, then."
"I wouldn't burden any decent system of faith by participating in it."
The tall Russian regarded me for a moment and then nodded slowly. "I feel the same way."
I felt my eyebrow arch, Spock-like. "That's a joke, right?"
He shook his head. "It is not. I have been an atheist since childhood."
"You've got to be kidding me. You're a Knight of the Cross."
"Da," he said.
"So if you're not religious, you risk your life to help other people because -?"
"Because it must be done," he answered without hesitation. "For the good of the people, some must place themselves in harm's way. Some must pledge their courage and their lives to protect the community."
"Just a minute," I said. "You became a Knight of the Cross because you were a communist?"
Sanya's face twisted with revulsion. "Certainly not. Trotsky. Very different."
I stopped myself from bursting out in laughter. But it was a near thing. "How did you get your sword?"
He moved his good hand to rest on the hilt of the blade, where it lay beside him on the cot. "Esperacchius. Michael gave it to me."
"Since when has Michael gone running off to Russia?"

"Not that Michael," Sanya said. He pointed a finger up. "That Michael."
I stared at him for a minute and then said, "So. You get handed a holy sword by an archangel, told to go fight the forces of evil, and you somehow remain an atheist. Is that what you're saying?"
Sanya's scowl returned.
"Doesn't that strike you as monumentally stupid?"

His glare darkened for maybe a minute before he took a deep breath and nodded. "Perhaps some could argue that I am agnostic."
"Agnostic?"
"One who does not commit himself to the certain belief in a divine power," he said.

"I know what it means," I said. "What shocks me is that you think it applies to you. You've met more than one divine power. Hell, one of them broke your arm not half an hour ago."
"Many things can break an arm. You yourself said that you do not need a god or goddess to define your beliefs about the supernatural."

"Yeah, but I'm not agnostic. Just nonpartisan. Theological Switzerland, that's me."
Sanya said, "Semantics. I do not understand your point."
I took a deep breath, still holding back the threat of giggles, and said, "Sanya. My point is that you have got to be more than a little thick to stand where you are, having seen what you've seen, and claim that you aren't sure whether or not there's a God."

He lifted his chin and said, "Not necessarily. It is possible that I am mad, and all of this is a hallucination."
That's when I started laughing. I just couldn't help it. I was too tired and too stressed to do anything else. I laughed and enjoyed it thoroughly while Sanya sat on his cot and scowled at me, careful not to move his wounded arm.
Shiro appeared at the door, bearing a platter of sandwiches and deli vegetables. He blinked through his owlish glasses at Sanya and then at me. He said something to Sanya in what I took to be Russian. The younger Knight transferred his scowl to Shiro, but nodded his head in a gesture deep enough to be part bow, before he rose, claimed two sandwiches in one large hand, and walked out.
Shiro waited until Sanya was gone before he set the platter down on a card table. My stomach went berserk at the sight of the sandwiches. Heavy exertion coupled with insane fear does that to me. Shiro gestured at the plate and pulled up a couple of folding chairs. I sat down, nabbed a sandwich of my own, and started eating. Turkey and cheese. Heaven.
The old Knight took a sandwich of his own, and ate with what appeared to be a similar appetite. We munched for a while in contented silence before he said, "Sanya told you about his beliefs."
I felt the corners of my mouth start to twinge as another smile threatened. "Yeah."
Shiro let out a pleased snort. "Sanya is a good man."
"I just don't get why he'd be recruited as a Knight of the Cross."
Shiro looked at me over the glasses, chewing. After a while, he said, "Man sees faces. Sees skin. Flags. Membership lists. Files." He took another large bite, ate it, and said, "God sees hearts."
"If you say so," I said.
He didn't answer. Right about the time I finished my sandwich, Shiro said, "You are looking for the Shroud."
"That's confidential," I said.
"If you say so," he said, using my own inflection on the words. The wrinkles at the corners of his eyes deepened. "Why?"
"Why what?"
"Why are you looking for it?" he asked, chewing.
"If I am- and I'm not saying that I am-I'm doing it because I've been hired to look for it."
"Your job," he said.
"Yeah."
"You do it for money," he said.
"Yeah."
"Hmph," he said, and pushed his glasses up with his pinky. "Do you love money then, Mister Dresden?"
I picked up a napkin from one side of the platter, and wiped my mouth. "I used to think I loved it. But now I realize that it's just dependency."
Shiro let out an explosive bark of laughter, and rose, chortling. "Sandwich okay?"
"Super."
Michael came in a few minutes later, his face troubled. There wasn't a clock in the room, but it had to have been well after midnight. I supposed if I had called Charity Carpenter that late, I'd be troubled after the conversation, too. She was ferocious where her husband's safety was concerned-especially when she heard that I was around. Okay, admittedly Michael had gotten pretty thoroughly battered whenever he came along on a case with me, but all the same I didn't think it was fair of her. It wasn't like I did it on purpose.
"Charity wasn't happy?" I asked.
Michael shook his head. "She's worried. Is there a sandwich left?"
There were a couple. Michael took one and I took a second one, just to keep him company. While we ate, Shiro got out his sword and a cleaning kit, and started wiping down the blade with a soft cloth and some kind of oil.
Agnostic fits better.
 
Its plausible for 'Los because, translating Water Magic to MtA mechanics, he's a user of the Entropy Sphere.
His combat shield is built along entropy principles of erosion and dissipating.

He'd have a much easier time of this than, say, a Life Sphere user.
Or a Matter/Forces user who thought in terms of elemental effects and trying to douse a Charm effect.
Missing my point. The distinctions here are arbitrary and unpredictable. Losing is one thing, but it appears that it's nearly impossible to know when something is at particular risk or do anything about it if we could.
[X] Yog

They may not like it, but someone used the mind of one of the children we agreed to protect to spy on our capabilities. Regardless of whether it was breaking the law or not, we have every right to respond lethally for this attempted espionage.

Just like they or any other faction has the right to do whatever they want with spies they catch.

And I will like to act as true Queen and not just wait to WC to chose what to do.
Every right? Peabody isn't even in the room, so we'd be hunting someone down in their territory. The basic premise of sovereignty is that you refute the idea that other powers are allowed to do stuff like this to your people.

Acting like a true leader and good ally means working with people and making wise political choices. We only need a little bit of cover to avoid exploding our efforts to build ties with the council, now is not the time to get sloppy.
 
Yeah. Translate this to irl nations and see if it sounds the same @Yog.

If you're hosting a joint training exercise with a new ally's military and find out that one of the cadets is being horrifically abused by an offsite political appointee you can't send assassins to the other nation's capital to kill them.

Bringing evidence to a trustworthy member and blitzing the guy together is a different matter.
In IRL terms this would be hacking, I think, and yes, a drone strike in retaliation seems expected.
If we do as you want, Molly would be the Queen of a foreign superpower enacting her will on the White Council to kill one of it's members. It's not a black and white situation doing this sort of thing sets a dangerous precedent that they aren't likely to ignore.
It doesn't matter who the person who enacted the magic is (we don't know it's Peabody). We aren't even expected to care who they are before we neutralize them. They are not acting Asa member of White Council, and being a member (if it's Peabody) not just affords them no protection, it puts them into even more trouble.
No we cannot.

Spying is not an Accords violation. He isnt even breaking guest right, as far as I can tell. The Accords do not enforce the Laws.
Even the Fae would not murder you out of hand for spying or trespass, and your rights do not extend to following a perpetrator out of your domain into someone else's in order to try to kill them.

When the Fomori cantrev-lord Mag tried this with Justine in Even Hand by pursuing Justine into Marcone territory, Marcone was ajudged within his rights to kill the dude and mail his body home.

And no, it would not be slightly politically inconvenient.
It would be a political shitstorm of epic proportions, and it would blow up our carefully crafted image among the players we are trying to court and burn our credibility with the Council.
The spying is not the problem. Invading the mind of someone under our protection is. Because that's what they basically have to be doing, in order to create such a Sleeper agent. The trainees are under our protection, they are our guests. Someone is doing harmful, potentially irrecoverably harmful magic to someone under our protection directly in our line of sight. We are perfectly entitled to eat their soul right now.
 
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