Silvereagle21
Soaring through the Sky
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Yog
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
FPoR doesn't cost essence. It's like BSM where you have to continuously meet a condition or it cuts you off, but with extra dice instead of difficulty reduction and a bunch of environment related modifiers.
When Iku did this you said that it took power and a certain amount of eldritch lore. Carlos is good, but wizards with less than a decade of experience being able to reasonably counterspell our charms is frustrating.
It makes all of our so called absolute effects in fact the easiest things to deal with. There are barely any charms that boost essence rolls too, so we can't even really do anything about it.
You can't counterspell someone counterspelling you, and even if it was allowed casting isn't a reflexive action so we want flurry it with something we're already in the process of doing.
Did they really? We've used all this and more in front of half of Faerie, not exactly an informational goldmine. There are pixies with better information on what we can do than this got them.
In any case SCE:
Even if it's just mind riding we can cut the cord.
My bet is Peabody, which means we can now prove something is up to the senior council without revealing the crown.
They are absolute effects when they work (charms can also just fail their activation roll ), but that does not mean a wizard can't do anything about it if they are willing and able to touch the balefire. There are rules in the book for this thing. Dresdenverse mages are not the Awakened but at the end of the day fire is fire even if it comes from an alien world and this is his wheelhouse.
Sure and you will get a pixie's senses worth of answers.
Even better - if this is Peabody, we can deal with him right now. Claim counter scrying ability ("I can see those who can see me" is not that outrageous of an ability), RVD to his location and deal with him. Let the council find the evidence in the aftermath.
We are near full on essence, and at most half an hour away from his location, likely less.
Well, thing is, this is a perfect time for flaring.
We are in the middle of a *fight*, so us showing our anima is just on theme, it doesn't give away the why.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Um.. Peabody is a trusted member of the White Council. Probably not a good idea to just kill or kidnap him with only our word to go off of even if they may find evidence by looking. He maybe surrounded by thralls too.
That's a "60% of the time it works 100% of the time" kinda answer. They're not perfects, but a number of 5 dot charms are dramatically easier to defeat than 1 dot ones. Mechanically what Carlos just did is identical to counterspelling our sword too, because it's they're all demonic aspects in Molly's themes. We just chose fire and a sword over claws and venom, but they're the same thing. The line on what's vulnerable to this and what isn't seems arbitrary.
The consequences of this are that the right move against exalts is always to spam counterspell because the worst case is excellency being applied, which you're already likely to be facing. Best case they've got a dice pool advantage in the low single digits at most and can't boost it.
This in turn makes the best play for us to stay away from most of the interesting powers because trying anything other than stabbing people in the face is punished by the system.
I'd be less annoyed by this if we could do anything at all to address the situation, but essence rolls are kept out of the players' hands by design. Our enemies can keep focusing on getting better at this and the only real response we have is to stop using vulnerable powers when it matters.
Holden explicitly calls out that mechanic as a thing for allowing mages to be baby demiurges. DF wizards not being awakened seems relevant to the rule being applied.
Ivar
Dark Reaper
- Location
- Russia Moscow
Honestly, if we were in the world of darkness, I would be surprised that Carlos Arete is 5 and not 3. But here I have no idea how the system works. So I have nothing to say except that it should have been clear at the moment when the Mages of DF and Mages of the World of Darkness became equivalent in-game mechanics for compatibility purposes.
Catching up...
You can use time magic to accelerate yourself, slow or kill your enemy, even attempt to divine the future and more, and its entirely rules legal.You just arent supposed to try to time travel into the past.
Just restricted to mortal magic users, using mortal magic? Lash used time magic when talking to Dresden in White Night to accelerate his mind, and its Word of Butcher that she could have given him a training montage in an evening. Warden Chandler literally specializes in divination and time magic by Word of God.
Then there's Senior Council member Rashid the Gatekeeper, who has precognition of some sort, and uses it at key points.
And thats just mortal casters.
Non-mortals, from Winter Lady Maeve to Winter Lady Molly to Odin to Mother Summer to the Outsiders, all exhibit significant command of time magics.
Im pretty sure I can find mortal practitioners of all nine major Spheres in the Dresden Files.
Just because Harry doesnt use a particular magic on the regular does not mean that other wizards and casters do not; see the Life Sphere, for example.
The really big guys, the Gilledians and Prevanti, dont spend time in the Tellurian for the same reason that Archmages spend most of their time in Horizon Realms and Constructs pre-Avatar Storm.
2) There's absolutely Paradox in the Umbra if you are in the wrong Reality Zone.
The Nephandi allegedly operated more or less in the open in WW2, and at various times during the Sorcerer's Crusades era.
At least two scenarios of the End Times in Mage The Ascension involved the Nephandi taking over; one was the Unnamed, and the other was Voormas.
You mistake preference for incapability.
Nephandi tempt because they prefer to tempt, and because getting you to damn yourself is their goal.
Not because they are all incapable of throwing hands.
Its like in the Dresdenverse.
Nicodemus doesnt keep a low profile in the DF because he cant fight. The Merlin doesnt avoid fistfights because he cant fight.
Its just not their favored means of engagement.
Even if its wrong.
Camp Kaboom had around 40ish kids at this time in canon. All of them with a gift for evocation.
Overseen by Luccio, Dresden, Carlos, Wild Bill Meyers and another unnamed Warden, IIRC. There only being 20ish here suggests that either their recruitment is worse than canon, or that there is a second site elsewhere with Luccio and the others.
Gonna note that an attack on a secret Warden training camp was a significant plot event last year in Proven Guilty
Im guessing that the Council appears to have decided that secrecy having demonstrably failed previously in keeping their training camps safe, they'd go with more or less openness and defenses instead.
Still a risk here; they are implicitly betting that Molly is capable and willing to deter open fuckery
I mean, the Reds are treaty bound to stay out of Chicago since Paolo Ortega lost his duel with Dresden, but they are a historically treacherous bunch.
And the White Court has a strong presence here as well. As do the Fae.
Not the optimal location to bring juicy fresh wizardlings, but its wartime, and needs must.
Im guessing Molly built Last Station with facilities to allow some level of live fire training.
And 15 successes on Perception + Empathy means all the wizards here might as well be transparent glass.
Essentially, the Accords formalize community standards, and give them the bite of Mab's formal displeasure.
This is supposed to deter chicanery and border pushing.
Casus belli are for diplomatic purposes.
Those who choose to start shit and either dont need, or dont care about their diplomatic standing, just do it anyway.
And eat the consequences.
Note that even factions who arent formally signatories find the rules and conventions useful; the Knights, for example, have explicitly fought duels under Accord rules according to Shiro.
The current Accords were established after the Unseelie Incursion of 1994, when an altercation between the Summer and Winter Knight vanished Milwaukee for several hours, replacing it with a valley of untouched forest
The Accords are a lot better for mortals than the previous state of affairs.
They put bite into more or less informal social norms. That they werent devised for the benefit of mortals does not mean that they dont benefit them.
Supernatural players know how to reach contacts in the Vatican.
And its worth remembering that Knights can, and often do change, sometimes swiftly; some people are only Knights for a day, or a scene, or a couple years.
Michael and Shiro being in service for decades is not the historical norm for Knights of the Cross.
Surprised Carlos resisted the Cookies of Infinite Allure.
Or more likely Molly kept some aside for him and Harry.
A little surprised Isabella consented to be around for this.
Or maybe she was just curious; I suspect Molly has provided a lot more supernatural excitement than Bella would normally get under most circumstances.
Just like there's nothing preventing them from getting a Totem Background, representing alliance/patronage by a spirit.
I would not be at all surprised if a bunch of elder wizards have stuff like this as trump cards up their sleeves.
I would bet on Listens To Wind having a couple such Gifts in his back pocket.
Its not to impress them, its to give them a good idea of what the threat level gamut out there might be.
Like how privates in Basic get to be present for at least one live fire exercise.
Optional rule of course, but your wizards should be rolling Arete + (highest Sphere of spell) for casting magic, to represent just how much easier magic generally is to cast here, as opposed to vanilla MtA where combat casting is.
And later, it stopped being an issue as he grew in strength and experience.
Even if Harry hasnt told him anything about that or Vegas, both of these are more or less open knowledge in the supernatural, with Iku Turso's death having had witnesses who are under no restrictions about talking.
Carlos isnt going to be under any illusions about how a serious clash would go.
What we just saw is in direct breach of the Third and Fourth Laws: Thou Shall Not Invade The Mind of Another and Thou Shall Not Enthrall Another.
No legit Council member would do this, and especially not to a trainee Warden.
So its probably Peabody doing his Peabody mindcontrol thing
Carlos is Arete 5?
That makes him a pretty scary prodigy; 'Los has only been a full wizard for maybe 4 years. Dude was still an apprentice in Summer Knight 5 years ago. Im guessing growing up magically in wartime accounts for most of that.
Whoever is trying to spy is doing so with a superhuman dice pool.
12 dice means either they have either Attribute or Ability in excess of 5 dots
Or they have Arete 7+ (Arete 7 + Correspondence 5)
Or they have an artifact or rote thats boosting their dice pools into this range.
All three possibilities are Bad Things in an opponent.
Tina Trailman has not been with the Council for very long; less than six months, if not less than three months.
That someone had the opportunity and time to stick something in her head bodes ill
And what are the odds that she's the only one?
Bright side?
This looks like its a tailormade situation for Break The Bonds , and at least two of Molly's clones have this Gift in their repertoire. No need to break out Ancient Sorcery.
This is a pretty clear upgrade on Peabody's part, btw. In canon, as far as we know he could only give orders to the people he had enthralled face to face. Being able to use them as sensor drones via a Correspondence/Mind 4 effect is a pretty big improvement on his canon capabilities, and a pretty clear indication we can take nothing for granted.
And if he can look through their eyes from another continent, he can give them orders the same way.
Or potentially puppet, or even cast through them.
This also demonstrates that in addition to his canon Spheres of
Mind(mind control),
Spirit(Ways into the NeverNever, summoning a mistfiend),
Prime(mind control ink Wonder)
Forces(casting acid bolts),
He also has Correspondence(distance viewing).
This is not true. Time travel is banned. Time magic is not.
You can use time magic to accelerate yourself, slow or kill your enemy, even attempt to divine the future and more, and its entirely rules legal.You just arent supposed to try to time travel into the past.
Just restricted to mortal magic users, using mortal magic? Lash used time magic when talking to Dresden in White Night to accelerate his mind, and its Word of Butcher that she could have given him a training montage in an evening. Warden Chandler literally specializes in divination and time magic by Word of God.
Then there's Senior Council member Rashid the Gatekeeper, who has precognition of some sort, and uses it at key points.
And thats just mortal casters.
Non-mortals, from Winter Lady Maeve to Winter Lady Molly to Odin to Mother Summer to the Outsiders, all exhibit significant command of time magics.
Im pretty sure I can find mortal practitioners of all nine major Spheres in the Dresden Files.
Just because Harry doesnt use a particular magic on the regular does not mean that other wizards and casters do not; see the Life Sphere, for example.
1) The Nephandi in Mage lore were deeply involved in the whole WW2 unpleasantness in MtA.
The really big guys, the Gilledians and Prevanti, dont spend time in the Tellurian for the same reason that Archmages spend most of their time in Horizon Realms and Constructs pre-Avatar Storm.
2) There's absolutely Paradox in the Umbra if you are in the wrong Reality Zone.
Thats not true either.
The Nephandi allegedly operated more or less in the open in WW2, and at various times during the Sorcerer's Crusades era.
At least two scenarios of the End Times in Mage The Ascension involved the Nephandi taking over; one was the Unnamed, and the other was Voormas.
You mistake preference for incapability.
Nephandi tempt because they prefer to tempt, and because getting you to damn yourself is their goal.
Not because they are all incapable of throwing hands.
Its like in the Dresdenverse.
Nicodemus doesnt keep a low profile in the DF because he cant fight. The Merlin doesnt avoid fistfights because he cant fight.
Its just not their favored means of engagement.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
Even if its wrong.
COMMENTARY
Camp Kaboom had around 40ish kids at this time in canon. All of them with a gift for evocation.
Overseen by Luccio, Dresden, Carlos, Wild Bill Meyers and another unnamed Warden, IIRC. There only being 20ish here suggests that either their recruitment is worse than canon, or that there is a second site elsewhere with Luccio and the others.
Gonna note that an attack on a secret Warden training camp was a significant plot event last year in Proven Guilty
Im guessing that the Council appears to have decided that secrecy having demonstrably failed previously in keeping their training camps safe, they'd go with more or less openness and defenses instead.
Still a risk here; they are implicitly betting that Molly is capable and willing to deter open fuckery
I mean, the Reds are treaty bound to stay out of Chicago since Paolo Ortega lost his duel with Dresden, but they are a historically treacherous bunch.
And the White Court has a strong presence here as well. As do the Fae.
Not the optimal location to bring juicy fresh wizardlings, but its wartime, and needs must.
Im guessing Molly built Last Station with facilities to allow some level of live fire training.
25 successes on cookies is the kind of thing that raises the question about how we kept the Jade Dogs from eating them all.
And 15 successes on Perception + Empathy means all the wizards here might as well be transparent glass.
Yeah.
Essentially, the Accords formalize community standards, and give them the bite of Mab's formal displeasure.
This is supposed to deter chicanery and border pushing.
The Fomori are signatories to the Accords. They didnt have or need a reason to start shit when they kicked off their war with the White Council after the Red Court got wiped out. Similarly, the Denarians are Accord signatories, but it didnt stop them grabbing Marcone, also another Accord signatory in canon.
Casus belli are for diplomatic purposes.
Those who choose to start shit and either dont need, or dont care about their diplomatic standing, just do it anyway.
And eat the consequences.
This.
Note that even factions who arent formally signatories find the rules and conventions useful; the Knights, for example, have explicitly fought duels under Accord rules according to Shiro.
The Accords formalize community standards,
The current Accords were established after the Unseelie Incursion of 1994, when an altercation between the Summer and Winter Knight vanished Milwaukee for several hours, replacing it with a valley of untouched forest
Susan Rodriguez was a reporter for the Chicago Arcane, a yellow magazine that covered all sorts of supernatural and paranormal events throughout the Midwest. Usually, the events they covered weren't much better than: "Monkey Man Seen With Elvis's Love Child," or "JFK's Mutant Ghost Abducts Shapeshifting Girl Scout." But once in a great, great while, the Arcane covered something that was real. Like the Unseelie Incursion of 1994, when the entire city of Milwaukee had simply vanished for two hours. Gone. Government satellite photos showed the river valley covered with trees and empty of life or human habitation. All communications ceased. Then, a few hours later, there it was, back again, and no one in the city itself the wiser.
She had also been hanging around my investigation in Branson the previous week. She had been tracking me ever since interviewing me for a feature story, right after I'd opened up my business. I had to hand it to her—she had instincts. And enough curiosity to get her into ten kinds of trouble. She had tricked me into meeting her eyes at the conclusion of our first interview, an eager young reporter investigating an angle on her interviewee. She was the one who had fainted after we'd soulgazed.
She had also been hanging around my investigation in Branson the previous week. She had been tracking me ever since interviewing me for a feature story, right after I'd opened up my business. I had to hand it to her—she had instincts. And enough curiosity to get her into ten kinds of trouble. She had tricked me into meeting her eyes at the conclusion of our first interview, an eager young reporter investigating an angle on her interviewee. She was the one who had fainted after we'd soulgazed.
The Accords are a lot better for mortals than the previous state of affairs.
They put bite into more or less informal social norms. That they werent devised for the benefit of mortals does not mean that they dont benefit them.
The Knights also have the Catholic Church for that, if its absolutely necessary.
Supernatural players know how to reach contacts in the Vatican.
And its worth remembering that Knights can, and often do change, sometimes swiftly; some people are only Knights for a day, or a scene, or a couple years.
Michael and Shiro being in service for decades is not the historical norm for Knights of the Cross.
COMMENTARY
Surprised Carlos resisted the Cookies of Infinite Allure.
Or more likely Molly kept some aside for him and Harry.
A little surprised Isabella consented to be around for this.
Or maybe she was just curious; I suspect Molly has provided a lot more supernatural excitement than Bella would normally get under most circumstances.
Bargaining with a spirit to be taught a Spirit Gift or two is not something wizards usually do, but there's nothing preventing it other than IC finding an appropriate spirit they feel comfortable with, and whose conditions are acceptable.
Just like there's nothing preventing them from getting a Totem Background, representing alliance/patronage by a spirit.
I would not be at all surprised if a bunch of elder wizards have stuff like this as trump cards up their sleeves.
I would bet on Listens To Wind having a couple such Gifts in his back pocket.
They're Warden trainees in the middle of an ongoing war.
Its not to impress them, its to give them a good idea of what the threat level gamut out there might be.
Like how privates in Basic get to be present for at least one live fire exercise.
COMMENTARY
Optional rule of course, but your wizards should be rolling Arete + (highest Sphere of spell) for casting magic, to represent just how much easier magic generally is to cast here, as opposed to vanilla MtA where combat casting is.
Dresden ran into magic resistance with the Fae in Summer Knight; the Sidhe lord Talos was resistant/immune to his magic while masqurading as the ogre Grum. He managed, in part because protagonist privilege, and in part mental flexibility ie dont cast at the target, cast around them.
And later, it stopped being an issue as he grew in strength and experience.
Molly killed Iku Turso with an audience of Summer Fae. And before that, killed a greater akuma of Kakuri.
Even if Harry hasnt told him anything about that or Vegas, both of these are more or less open knowledge in the supernatural, with Iku Turso's death having had witnesses who are under no restrictions about talking.
Carlos isnt going to be under any illusions about how a serious clash would go.
Zero chance its the Council; they'd just ask for a report from Carlos, or one of the kiddies. Or worst case, ask for permission to look at their memories.
What we just saw is in direct breach of the Third and Fourth Laws: Thou Shall Not Invade The Mind of Another and Thou Shall Not Enthrall Another.
No legit Council member would do this, and especially not to a trainee Warden.
So its probably Peabody doing his Peabody mindcontrol thing
COMMENTARY
Carlos is Arete 5?
That makes him a pretty scary prodigy; 'Los has only been a full wizard for maybe 4 years. Dude was still an apprentice in Summer Knight 5 years ago. Im guessing growing up magically in wartime accounts for most of that.
Whoever is trying to spy is doing so with a superhuman dice pool.
12 dice means either they have either Attribute or Ability in excess of 5 dots
Or they have Arete 7+ (Arete 7 + Correspondence 5)
Or they have an artifact or rote thats boosting their dice pools into this range.
All three possibilities are Bad Things in an opponent.
Tina Trailman has not been with the Council for very long; less than six months, if not less than three months.
That someone had the opportunity and time to stick something in her head bodes ill
And what are the odds that she's the only one?
Bright side?
This looks like its a tailormade situation for Break The Bonds , and at least two of Molly's clones have this Gift in their repertoire. No need to break out Ancient Sorcery.
This is a pretty clear upgrade on Peabody's part, btw. In canon, as far as we know he could only give orders to the people he had enthralled face to face. Being able to use them as sensor drones via a Correspondence/Mind 4 effect is a pretty big improvement on his canon capabilities, and a pretty clear indication we can take nothing for granted.
And if he can look through their eyes from another continent, he can give them orders the same way.
Or potentially puppet, or even cast through them.
This also demonstrates that in addition to his canon Spheres of
Mind(mind control),
Spirit(Ways into the NeverNever, summoning a mistfiend),
Prime(mind control ink Wonder)
Forces(casting acid bolts),
He also has Correspondence(distance viewing).
They don't have Avatars because they don't fit the setting, I don't think it's unreasonable to localize things when we have clear explanations of why the rules work the way they do.
I don't really like the mechanic in the first place but accepting for the moment that some sort of interaction is necessary for game balance, it shouldn't function in a way that makes fights less interesting. If countermagic works like this then it should be self evidently the best approach to supernatural stuff because it's dumb to ever contest spirits or magic in any other way. Hell, it should be our first response to anything for the same reason.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Yes? Still think we don't need to sign them nor want to.
I pointed this out very recently, that wizards/mages specifically were allowed to attempt to fuck with Exalted charms.
Thats a rule in ExWoD.
Its not easy, but it is possible.
And Molly did not have EIPP up anyway.
Guessing he wanted to use his own senses instead of hearing at second hand.
Countermagic is a DC8 reflexive roll for most people, and unlike Exalts with Excellencies, most people cap at 10 dice.
Thats why even wizards will preferentially try to duck or dodge than to counterspell. And thats assuming its even something you can counterspell; you generally cant counterspell a lightning bolt or other direct attack.
We dont need to sign them; we can follow them without being a signatory, and I suspect a lot of people might find it convenient for Molly to not be a signatory while appearing to follow it.
I did want to correct the whole idea that the setting would be better off without the Accords. Which is a lot like arguing the world would be better without the UN.
BronzeTongue already pointed out the problem with that reasoning:
Emphasis mine.
We are not in ExWoD when it comes to mages, we are in dresden files and dresden files' mages are not the ultimate controllers of the rules of reality.
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On some level that is completely true if innate powers that are visible are vulnerable to active counter spelling then the best move for Molly to do in a situation with any heavy Gift, Discipline (Red, White, Jade) or spell use or hell even Charms (Spirits) usage, is to activate her occult Excellency and spam counter spelling and just defend using her sword until the person who is fighting her her runs out of power simply because she'll be spending two Essence every five turns and then within the 50 rounds it takes to exhaust her Essence pretty much anything will have spent all of their pool well before that I think only the antediluvians wouldn't have. If they are a wizard just counter spell anyway and then slowly walk up to them and then slice them in half.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If we can counterspell enemy buffs that would make most of the boss fights we have done in the past a joke. They are as dependent on buffs as we are.
- Location
- Brazil
Yes? No one will claim otherwise. The question is: if they can do this to us why can't we do it to them in return?
I agree with @BronzeTongue, with Ikutsu I can accept, reluctantly because he is a very ancient and powerful being, the deactivation of our charms, but for a new wizard, since as mentioned he hasn't been a Guardian for long? In combat time?
@DragonParadox this really doesn't work.
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What we are observing here is almost certainly a Law violation. And as soon as we are in his presence in War Form, we can claim to sense Outsider corruption on him. From there, unless he just allows himself to be killed (unlikely), there'll be plenty of evidence in out fight.
The knights are not, as far as I know, associated with Roman Catholic Church at all, on the institutional basis. Michael is, but that's because he's a devout catholic.
- Location
- Brazil
It's not that they are linked to the Church, but that the Church has contact with them, helps them with supplies and information, and as we have seen, the knights can ask for information from their files without being refused outright.
And the Church guard various Coin give by the Knights for them.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
This may be an option available to us yes. Just keep in mind the precedent this would set in the eyes of the WC. We see one of their most trusted long time friends violating a Law and then run to kill them.
You can do this to them, it just takes an action in which you could be attacking
You will note he did not go for anything more complex than the fire because he knew that stuff was beyond him. You will also note it would not really have helped him in the context of the bout... He was about to explain, but then he botched his very next roll and things got messy.
This is Council's own standard operating procedure. And the story would go something like "We have observed someone hijacking one of the trainee's senses. We tracked the effect back to the source. Found an outsider cultist. Oh, he was an infiltrator? How fortunate that I took him out".