Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 · Jul 13, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Why would it be subject to them any more than Shagnasty was then? It could go get the thing and leave without challenging the prison.

Because Shagnasty is at least in part a creature of the material world?
Embermane is not.
Different base rules for different people.

You dont exactly expect that an Outsider would be able to walk onto and off Demonreach because Shagnasty or the Denarians could.

BronzeTongue said:
They weren't in the prison or conflict with the island when he got the job. It's the difference between hiring a regulator who has ties to big business outside your industry and hiring one who admits they want to specifically rule in favor of an entity you're actively litigating a case on.

Conflicts of interest reviews are prospective, not retrospective.

BronzeTongue said:
We never see it default hostile to people who haven't pissed it off already. The Denarians had to get the item on the cup somehow too; if it was going to give a spirit that treatment at the door why would it accept part of it and just let the detached organ of a security threat sit on the beach or whatever?

Because our PoV character is the Warden of Demonreach.
Everyone else, from Murphy to Michael, says that Demonreach gives them nightmares just for coming there.

Demonreach has restrictions.
There is a reason it needs a Warden to do its job.

Yog said:
Citation please.

The binding of Ethniu was most of Chapter 35 of Battle Grounds.
I am not quoting the entire thing.

So I will quote the ritual involved when Dresden bound his brother Thomas into Demonreach:

Peace Talks c34 said:
My brother forced his eyes open and tried to find me. "J … J …"

"Justine," I said. "I know. I'm on it."

He sobbed. That was all he had left in him.

I stood away from him, leaving him within the light of the crystal. Alfred loomed over Thomas. "YOU HAVE THE CAGE. YOU HAVE THE BLOOD. DRAW THE CIRCLE AND SPEAK THE WORDS, WARDEN."

My instincts twitched. I looked back over my shoulder.

Freydis stood at the very edge of the dock, staring up the slope at me. Even as I watched, she turned and rushed back to the ship, leaping up onto the deck and vanishing into the hold.

There wasn't much time. My brother was fading, being devoured by his own demon.

I rose and drew in my will, while I used my staff to gouge a circle into the earth around my brother. Once that was done, I bent over, touched the little trench with my fingers, and raised the circle by unleashing a tiny amount of energy into it. It snapped up in an invisible screen around my fallen brother and began to gather and focus magical energy.

Then I raised the pocketknife overhead in one hand.

"Bound be Thomas Raith," I hissed. I felt resistance against my will begin to rise, the reluctance of this world to open a passage to another. "Bound be my wounded brother," I growled, forcing my will into my voice, making it ring from the stones and trees and water. "Fallen warrior, father-to-be, I name him bound, consigned to thee."

I heard a brief cry from behind me.

I released my will with the third repetition of the binding.

And Demonreach went to work.

I didn't have the kind of power it would have taken to do what the genius loci did. The energy I'd had to pour into the incantation had simply been to release a portion of the spirit's power—like turning the key in an enormous, stiff, stubborn lock. Demonreach was not meant to be used by the weak-minded or the uncertain, and the effort it had taken to set it into motion was not one I would care to repeat on a regular basis for exercise.

The crystal flared with light. It bathed Thomas so brightly that I could see his bones through his skin.

And then my poor, battered brother began to scream. It was a thin, shrieking sound, a sound that embraced more emotion, more agony, than his broken body could possibly bear. It ripped at me, that sound, causing me pain that the Winter mantle could do absolutely nothing about. I had just condemned my brother to a punishment that I would have been terrified to face myself.

Thomas screamed and screamed, and the vast form of the genius loci towered over him, bending down.

And then the screams ended.

The light vanished.

I stood alone on the cold stones.

Where my wounded brother had been, there was nothing but a very faintly glowing cloud of green mist, dispersing rapidly, sinking into the stone and earth of Demonreach.
I sagged, dropping down to one knee and bracing my arms on the ground.

Stars and stones.
What I had just done … there had been no choice, especially not now.
But my brother.

I heard a single low cry, raw and ugly with pain.
I turned to see Lara land on the dock and rush toward me, a pale blur of supernatural speed, something that gleamed and caught the moonlight in her hand.

Its not an automatic process.
The Warden is essential. So is a binding crystal from the island, blood from the prospective inmate, a binding circle, and ritual incantation.

This is further reinforced by Demonreach's comments in the next chapter

"SHALL I PREPARE ANOTHER CELL FOR THAT ONE?"

I turned to find the island's spirit looming over my shoulder—and I hadn't sensed Alfred's approach.

Which … bothered me. I mean, my intellectus of the island was essentially without limit. With a minor effort of concentration, I could have known how many ants were on the island, how many birds, how many fish in the waters off its shores. But I couldn't find out more about the inhabitants of the cells without dragging my brain through their psychic rap sheets, experiencing to some degree everything they were and had done. And I couldn't sense Alfred or his movements. I mean, the spirit had come every time I'd called.

And I'd been assuming this whole time that it had to.

But Alfred was apparently able to hide things from me. The spirit could hide its presence from my intellectus of the island, for example. And it could hide the innate terror of the island's inmates, preventing it from taking a toll on my psyche.

So I kind of had to wonder—what else could Demonreach be hiding from me?

"That won't be necessary," I muttered back to the spirit. "Alfred, how big a being can the cells contain?"

"PHYSICAL SIZE IS NOT A FACTOR," the spirit replied. "METAPHYSICAL MASS IS A DIFFERENT CONSIDERATION." The creature's green eyes suddenly flashed fiercely. "THE LAST TITAN IS ON THE MOVE."

"Yes," I said simply. "Can you hold her?"

"IF YOU CAN PERFORM THE BINDING, I CAN HOLD HER," Alfred said.

"From how far out?" I asked.

"I AM A JAILER, NOT A BOUNTY HUNTER," Alfred replied. "PERHAPS TO THE SHORES OF THE LAKE—IF YOU USED THE ATHAME FROM THE ARMORY."

An athame is a magical tool—think magic wand, but in the form of a knife. They're powerful tools for ritual magic.

I had one locked up in the island's armory. I'd stolen it from the God of the Underworld, from the same shelf as the Shroud and the Crown of Thorns. If it truly was what I was pretty sure it was, then using it was going to put me in a long-term pickle.

But if the storm coming for Chicago was as bad as I thought it was going to be, not using it would be unthinkable.

"To the shore, eh?" I said. "All right. Get me the knife. And a binding crystal. And the placard."

"YOU WISH TWO OF THE WEAPONS?"

Alfred sounded … slightly intimidated.

That's the kind of power level we were talking about.

"Sure," I said in the most cavalier fashion I could. "After all, that's only half the arsenal. And as soon as I leave, I want the full defensive measures of the island activated. Nothing gets in or out. Understood?"

"UNDERSTOOD, WARDEN," the entity said with a bow.

"Great," I sighed. "Now, run and get me my toys, Alfred. I've got a long night coming up."

Once again, Alfred confirms that the Warden has to bind the prospective inmate.
Only then does Demonreach kick in.

Yog said:
This doesn't make any sense, based on how Dresden bound it.

Why?
The person who is credited as the creator of Demonreach founded the White Council.
Why do you think they would not include membership as one of their criteria?

I mean, its not the sole criteria, obviously.
But by Word of Jim, the Senior Council has never been worried about some external interloper binding it during the time when it doesnt have a Warden. That speaks volumes.

Yog · Jul 13, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Then how about dropping ESS? It's a lot harder for a mortal to reliably proc it in the field so the value is more limited. For those 3 points you could take the primal form element and buy Scourge of the World with the balance.

Ah, that's the beauty of it - Synergy + ESS is stupid busted. It's supposed to work like this:
1) The Spirit of the Ring links the user and the Spirit together with Synergy (2 WP cost, I'll assume scene-long, since it doesn't specify length).

2) This gives the user 12 dice to use the ring with (7 Wits + 5 Craft) and access to Spirit's mana pool, which is 5 mana. Mana can be used to decrease difficulty of any actions at the cost of -1 DC per mana. This translates to 2 turns of activity in combat, one at -3 DC, the second at -2 DC. In the future (beyond the quest probably) this would also give access to Spirit's knowledge of Path Magic, which eventually should be 5 dots in every path, basically, as the spirit learns from the users of the ring.

3) The user shares 1 Willpower with the Spirit through Synergy link. ESS activates, and refills the mana pool. Essentially this allows for WP to mana conversion at a very good rate (1 WP per 5 mana). This can be done essentially at will by the user. And, in an emergency, the reverse can also be done (the Spirit of the Ring can give one WP to the user, to refill whatever energy pool they have). It's stupid busted as a combo.

And very much "together we are more than we are alone" where spirit and ring user supporting each other have nearly unlimited power.

uju32 said:
Its not an automatic process.

Yes, but nothing says only Warden can do this.

uju32 said:
Why?
The person who is credited as the creator of Demonreach founded the White Council.
Why do you think they would not include membership as one of their criteria?

I mean, its not the sole criteria, obviously.
But by Word of Jim, the Senior Council has never been worried about some external interloper binding it during the time when it doesnt have a Warden. That speaks volumes.

Because Dresden didn't need any sort of authorization from WC to bind Demonreach. Didn't encounter any resistance from WC in binding it. As far as I can tell, there was nothing on the part of WC that would have prevented Thomas Raith from sailing up to the island and binding it, were he so inclined.

BronzeTongue · Jul 13, 2024

Yog said:
3) The user shares 1 Willpower with the Spirit through Synergy link. ESS activates, and refills the mana pool. Essentially this allows for WP to mana conversion at a very good rate (1 WP per 5 mana). This can be done essentially at will by the user. And, in an emergency, the reverse can also be done (the Spirit of the Ring can give one WP to the user, to refill whatever energy pool they have). It's stupid busted as a combo

That's not how that works though, as far as I see anyway. You get essence when you fulfill your nature, which basically maps to defending an intimacy for a mortal. You don't just get a hit of power whenever you recover willpower by any means.

uju32 · Jul 13, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Your friend flips it open and reads slowly since she has to translate: "Upon the Lake That Should be Sea stands the Island that should be a Mountain, keeper of those things bright and protean which the world can no longer endure, yet which cannot be Cast Out for in the doing too much would be given to Those Beyond that they did not know before. Power is there that can break the Fate of the world, or reforge it. Once there was a dwelling-of-men there, once the island listened to harvest songs and delighted int he laughter of children and it was content in the children-of-earth it guarded, but in the Year of the Lord 1854 the deadly bile..." she frowns. "I think this just means 'Cholera', anyway cholera washed them away on black tides. None know the cause only that it became more perilous by far to tread there..." she stops again, longer.

DragonParadox said:
As if on cue another book falls down from a high shelf and this one slimmer and newer. "The new guardian managed to persuade one of the local men-of-business to open a canning factory on the island in the hopes of returning the spirit of the place to greater tranquility though it served him little in the end for the mortals were..." another stop, this one to edit less than polite terns you suspect. "Superstitious and foolish. They gave to the island only fear and anger so that is all they received in return."

Either we're going very AU or these books are....subtly inaccurate.
Because its not called Demonreach in canon because it simply stores hazardous stuff, its called Demonreach because the inmates are almost all actively malevolent.

And Demonreach itself describes them as nightmares.

I blinked myself out of my reverie to find Demonreach watching me. There was something intense about its eyes.

"MEMORY," it said, "REFLECTION."

I frowned. "What do you mean?"

"THIS PLACE."

I pondered that one for a minute. "Are you saying that I just went into an internal monologue because I came in here?"

Demonreach did not seem to feel a need to clarify. "MEMORY. REFLECTION."

I sighed. "Well, if I ever need to mull things over, I know just where to go, I guess." It was chilly in the cavern, and damp, and the air was thick with musty, earthy smells. I turned a slow circle, surveying the entire chamber. "What do you call this place?"

Demonreach said nothing and did not move.

"Right," I said. "You don't call it anything at all, I guess." I scrunched up my nose, thinking. "What is this chamber's purpose?"

"CONTAINMENT."

I frowned. "Uh. Of what?"

"THE LEAST."

"The least what?" I asked, feeling exasperated.

Demonreach just watched me.

"Uh, Harry," Bob said in a small voice. "Maybe you should look at the crystals?"

I glanced down at the skull, shrugged, and walked over to the nearest formation. I stood over it for a moment. It was a large clump, maybe twelve feet long and four or five across. And . . . and the shadows passing through the translucent crystals seemed to indicate that the floor beneath it had been hollowed out, much the same as my own recovery bed. In fact . . .

I frowned, leaning closer. There was a form beneath the crystals, an outline. The image of whatever it was got to me only after being refracted through multiple crystals, so it was awfully blurry, but I peered at it, trying to unfocus my eyes and look past it, the way you do those magic paintings at the mall.

The image suddenly snapped into disjointed clarity. The form beneath the crystal was a lean creature of basically human shape, maybe nine or ten feet tall and lithe, covered in shaggy hair of golden brown. Its arms were too long for its body. Its hands were too big for its arms. Its fingers were too long for its hands, and were tipped with vicious claws.

And its yellow-gold eyes were open, aware, staring at me in naked, undisguised hatred.

"Fuck me!" I shouted, staggering back in pure, panicked reflex. "That's a naagloshii! That's a f**king naagloshii!"

Naagloshii were bad news. Serious bad news. Originally divine messengers of the Dine's Holy People, they had turned their backs on their origins and become the legendary skinwalkers of the American Southwest. I went up against one of them once. It killed one of my friends, tortured my brother half-crazy, and left me with permanent psychic scars before beating the ever-loving snot out of me. The only reason I had survived was that the wizard who was the greatest shape-shifter I'd ever seen had intervened. Listens-to-Wind had taken on the naagloshii head-to-head. Even then, it had been close, and the naagloshii had escaped to fight another day.

I've run into cruel and dangerous beings before. But the naagloshii were quite simply among the most evil creatures it had ever been my displeasure to encounter. And one of the damned things was staring at me from beneath a fragile layer of quartz I could have smashed with a wrench, its eyes burning like it was going to eat me whole.

I got a sudden sinking feeling.

And I turned to the next mound of quartz. And the next.

I'm a lucky guy. I didn't have one of the most nightmarish fiends in circulation lying on the floor within pouncing distance.

I had six of them.

There were more shapes beneath more crystal mounds. I didn't recognize them. I'm pretty sure I was extremely happy that I didn't.

"The least," I said, my voice shaking. "You're telling me that a naagloshii is one of the least." I felt like sitting down, so I did, sort of abruptly, onto the floor. "What . . . what else is in here?"

Demonreach turned to a wall. It lifted an arm and the stone of the wall faded into nonexistence, revealing a hallway maybe fifty feet across. I got back up onto my shaky legs again to take a look. The tunnel sloped down gently, and was lit by the wan glow of the crystals.

Lots of crystals.

Lots and lots and lots of crystals.

The tunnel stretched into the distance. Maybe it was a mile long. Maybe two. Maybe it ran all the way down to Hell. Mounds of crystals dotted the tunnel at regular intervals. Some of them were the size of buildings. Some of the individual crystals had to be the size of freaking trees. I had barely gotten my gawk on when a flood of energy smashed into me, as though opening the door had released liquid held back under pressure. The energy had no physical presence-but I felt a nauseating wave of greasy cold flooding through me, the dark power of the ley lines that converged upon the island breathing across me like a cloud of invisible smog.

"THE WELL," Demonreach said. The spirit turned, slowly, and eleven more doorways to tunnels almost identical to the first one sighed into existence. Eleven more of them. Because one infinite tunnel full of horrors obviously wasn't enough. I had twelve.

The dark energy from them hissed and oozed through the air, as if sheer malice and vicious will had been distilled into an unseen mist.

"And . . . and everything down there makes a naagloshii look like small change?" I asked.

"CORRECT."

"Of course. Naturally," I said, staring down the first hall. "What are they? What's down there?"

"NIGHTMARES. DARK GODS. NAMELESS THINGS. IMMORTALS."

"Holy crap," I whispered. And that was when I understood why the place was called the Well. "This is why the island is the source of all those ley lines. It's like a great big bubbling geyser of bad."

I shook my head, pushed myself up, and started walking out. Walking through one of the tunnels beneath the island of Demonreach was always an experience. When I ran, I went by the mounds pretty quick.
When I walked, the prisoners trapped inside them had time to talk to me.

Let me fulfill your every desire, crooned a silken voice in my head as I went by one.
Blood and power, riches and strength, I can give you all that you—promised the next.
One day, mortal, I will be free and suck the marrow from your bones, snarled another.
Bow down in fear and horror before me!
Loathe me, let me devour you, and I will make real your dreams.
Release me or I will destroy you!
Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Sleep and let me inside you . . .
Bloodpaindeathbloodfleshbloodpaindeath . . .
BLARGLE SLORG NOTH HARGHLE FTHAGN!

You know.
The usual.

I skirted around a fairly small mound whose occupant had simply sent me a mental picture that had kept me up for a couple of nights the last time I walked by, and passed one of the last mounds before the exit.

There's even Word of Butcher from an interview, along the lines of:

We also know about 2 prisoners, not by names, but by their abilities from Jim when he was ask what the most powerful prisoner was. He said it's hard to gauge because they were all extremely horrible either in the short term or the long term. One was like a cloning situation where it would eat/kill a person, create a clone of itself, and repeat the cycle en mass. Another one, while much slower, would have eventually caused the entire world to enter into a deep depression, decide to stop eating, and starve to death.

This is not a happy fun place of innocence before humans ruined it with their superstitions and fear and whatnot.
Its a prison for monsters, and existential threats to humanity.
Thats why it warrants a continent-wrecker failsafe bomb if it loses containment.

And Demonreach actively doesnt want mortals here.
For the same reasons why prisons and nuclear weapons silos do not allow civilians free entry willy-nilly.Any book that calls a facility where naagloshii are minimum security prisoners in terms of frolics and shit? Is automatically sus.

And I say this as someone who isnt averse to redemption stories.

EDIT
Maybe Lydia's father got those books from Kemmler.
Because that sounds like the sort of thing a mad necromancer type would say

Yog said:
Yes, but nothing says only Warden can do this.

*points at quote*
Only the Warden is bound to Demonreach; there is an active link between the two of them that is involved when binding new inmates. Ergo, only the Warden can do this.

Just like only the Warden can walk into the middle of the Well and get their hands on a binding crystal.

Yog said:
Because Dresden didn't need any sort of authorization from WC to bind Demonreach. Didn't encounter any resistance from WC in binding it. As far as I can tell, there was nothing on the part of WC that would have prevented Thomas Raith from sailing up to the island and binding it, were he so inclined.

1) This has been previously addressed multiple times.
By Word of Butcher, the Senior Council didnt say shit because they realized they needed a Warden now that things were coming to a head.

Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because among the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I think he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

And Demonreach is entirely capable of checking for things like affiliation if thats an issue.

This is the entity that has intellectus over its location.
And you're looking to bind your mind to it.
Yeah, it can look.

2)Its worth remembering that the Wardenship isnt an honor, its a burden. One that comes with no benefits, and no advantages for doing the job properly. It makes you a target of everyone who wants to free an inmate, destroy the world, or who thinks they can turn its power to their personal advantage.

And you are being exposed to the inmates and their blandishments, some of whom are cognitohazards.
Its implied that Kemmler, for example, was not a bad guy before becoming Warden. Only after.
Rashid was deadly serious when he warned Harry about not using that particular leyline.

Artemis1992 · Jul 13, 2024

uju32 said:
Either we're going very AU or these books are....subtly inaccurate.
Because its not called Demonreach in canon because it simply stores hazardous stuff, its called Demonreach because the inmates are almost all actively malevolent.

Consider it in the light of the Setting-Fusion.

With the Exalted setting being a past of this age, it makes some sense that there are many more and less malevolent remants that don't fit into the world anymore.

Doesn't make Demonreach a happy fun place, but it leaves a lot of space for alternatives to the Dreseden-canonical horrors.

uju32 · Jul 13, 2024

VOTE
[X] Wait to learn that the Church might know about Father Francis
-[X] While we wait, visit the north, the Empty Roost with the memories of murdered things. With Lydia + Dresden
-[X] All Things Betray + Hellscry Chakra + Excellencies as needed

RATIONALE
I am not currently aware of any reason to rush this. So wait for the church to get back to us with information.
And while we wait, go to the north place, to the Hollow Bread Roost, where the memories of murdered things darken the skies of the NeverNever.

Lydia has authority over the dead, so bring her.

DragonParadox · Jul 13, 2024

uju32 said:
Either we're going very AU or these books are....subtly inaccurate.
Because its not called Demonreach in canon because it simply stores hazardous stuff, its called Demonreach because the inmates are almost all actively malevolent.

And Demonreach itself describes them as nightmares.

I blinked myself out of my reverie to find Demonreach watching me. There was something intense about its eyes.

"MEMORY," it said, "REFLECTION."

I frowned. "What do you mean?"

"THIS PLACE."

I pondered that one for a minute. "Are you saying that I just went into an internal monologue because I came in here?"

Demonreach did not seem to feel a need to clarify. "MEMORY. REFLECTION."

I sighed. "Well, if I ever need to mull things over, I know just where to go, I guess." It was chilly in the cavern, and damp, and the air was thick with musty, earthy smells. I turned a slow circle, surveying the entire chamber. "What do you call this place?"

Demonreach said nothing and did not move.

"Right," I said. "You don't call it anything at all, I guess." I scrunched up my nose, thinking. "What is this chamber's purpose?"

"CONTAINMENT."

I frowned. "Uh. Of what?"

"THE LEAST."

"The least what?" I asked, feeling exasperated.

Demonreach just watched me.

"Uh, Harry," Bob said in a small voice. "Maybe you should look at the crystals?"

I glanced down at the skull, shrugged, and walked over to the nearest formation. I stood over it for a moment. It was a large clump, maybe twelve feet long and four or five across. And . . . and the shadows passing through the translucent crystals seemed to indicate that the floor beneath it had been hollowed out, much the same as my own recovery bed. In fact . . .

I frowned, leaning closer. There was a form beneath the crystals, an outline. The image of whatever it was got to me only after being refracted through multiple crystals, so it was awfully blurry, but I peered at it, trying to unfocus my eyes and look past it, the way you do those magic paintings at the mall.

The image suddenly snapped into disjointed clarity. The form beneath the crystal was a lean creature of basically human shape, maybe nine or ten feet tall and lithe, covered in shaggy hair of golden brown. Its arms were too long for its body. Its hands were too big for its arms. Its fingers were too long for its hands, and were tipped with vicious claws.

And its yellow-gold eyes were open, aware, staring at me in naked, undisguised hatred.

"Fuck me!" I shouted, staggering back in pure, panicked reflex. "That's a naagloshii! That's a f**king naagloshii!"

Naagloshii were bad news. Serious bad news. Originally divine messengers of the Dine's Holy People, they had turned their backs on their origins and become the legendary skinwalkers of the American Southwest. I went up against one of them once. It killed one of my friends, tortured my brother half-crazy, and left me with permanent psychic scars before beating the ever-loving snot out of me. The only reason I had survived was that the wizard who was the greatest shape-shifter I'd ever seen had intervened. Listens-to-Wind had taken on the naagloshii head-to-head. Even then, it had been close, and the naagloshii had escaped to fight another day.

I've run into cruel and dangerous beings before. But the naagloshii were quite simply among the most evil creatures it had ever been my displeasure to encounter. And one of the damned things was staring at me from beneath a fragile layer of quartz I could have smashed with a wrench, its eyes burning like it was going to eat me whole.

I got a sudden sinking feeling.

And I turned to the next mound of quartz. And the next.

I'm a lucky guy. I didn't have one of the most nightmarish fiends in circulation lying on the floor within pouncing distance.

I had six of them.

There were more shapes beneath more crystal mounds. I didn't recognize them. I'm pretty sure I was extremely happy that I didn't.

"The least," I said, my voice shaking. "You're telling me that a naagloshii is one of the least." I felt like sitting down, so I did, sort of abruptly, onto the floor. "What . . . what else is in here?"

Demonreach turned to a wall. It lifted an arm and the stone of the wall faded into nonexistence, revealing a hallway maybe fifty feet across. I got back up onto my shaky legs again to take a look. The tunnel sloped down gently, and was lit by the wan glow of the crystals.

Lots of crystals.

Lots and lots and lots of crystals.

The tunnel stretched into the distance. Maybe it was a mile long. Maybe two. Maybe it ran all the way down to Hell. Mounds of crystals dotted the tunnel at regular intervals. Some of them were the size of buildings. Some of the individual crystals had to be the size of freaking trees. I had barely gotten my gawk on when a flood of energy smashed into me, as though opening the door had released liquid held back under pressure. The energy had no physical presence-but I felt a nauseating wave of greasy cold flooding through me, the dark power of the ley lines that converged upon the island breathing across me like a cloud of invisible smog.

"THE WELL," Demonreach said. The spirit turned, slowly, and eleven more doorways to tunnels almost identical to the first one sighed into existence. Eleven more of them. Because one infinite tunnel full of horrors obviously wasn't enough. I had twelve.

The dark energy from them hissed and oozed through the air, as if sheer malice and vicious will had been distilled into an unseen mist.

"And . . . and everything down there makes a naagloshii look like small change?" I asked.

"CORRECT."

"Of course. Naturally," I said, staring down the first hall. "What are they? What's down there?"

"NIGHTMARES. DARK GODS. NAMELESS THINGS. IMMORTALS."

"Holy crap," I whispered. And that was when I understood why the place was called the Well. "This is why the island is the source of all those ley lines. It's like a great big bubbling geyser of bad."

I shook my head, pushed myself up, and started walking out. Walking through one of the tunnels beneath the island of Demonreach was always an experience. When I ran, I went by the mounds pretty quick.
When I walked, the prisoners trapped inside them had time to talk to me.

Let me fulfill your every desire, crooned a silken voice in my head as I went by one.
Blood and power, riches and strength, I can give you all that you—promised the next.
One day, mortal, I will be free and suck the marrow from your bones, snarled another.
Bow down in fear and horror before me!
Loathe me, let me devour you, and I will make real your dreams.
Release me or I will destroy you!
Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Sleep and let me inside you . . .
Bloodpaindeathbloodfleshbloodpaindeath . . .
BLARGLE SLORG NOTH HARGHLE FTHAGN!

You know.
The usual.

I skirted around a fairly small mound whose occupant had simply sent me a mental picture that had kept me up for a couple of nights the last time I walked by, and passed one of the last mounds before the exit.

There's even Word of Butcher from an interview, along the lines of:

This is not a happy fun place of innocence before humans ruined it with their superstitions and fear and whatnot.
Its a prison for monsters, and existential threats to humanity.
Thats why it warrants a continent-wrecker failsafe bomb if it loses containment.

And Demonreach actively doesnt want mortals here.
For the same reasons why prisons and nuclear weapons silos do not allow civilians free entry willy-nilly.Any book that calls a facility where naagloshii are minimum security prisoners in terms of frolics and shit? Is automatically sus.

And I say this as someone who isnt averse to redemption stories.

EDIT
Maybe Lydia's father got those books from Kemmler.
Because that sounds like the sort of thing a mad necromancer type would say

*points at quote*
Only the Warden is bound to Demonreach; there is an active link between the two of them that is involved when binding new inmates. Ergo, only the Warden can do this.

Just like only the Warden can walk into the middle of the Well and get their hands on a binding crystal.

1) This has been previously addressed multiple times.
By Word of Butcher, the Senior Council didnt say shit because they realized they needed a Warden now that things were coming to a head.

And Demonreach is entirely capable of checking for things like affiliation if thats an issue.

This is the entity that has intellectus over its location.
And you're looking to bind your mind to it.
Yeah, it can look.

2)Its worth remembering that the Wardenship isnt an honor, its a burden. One that comes with no benefits, and no advantages for doing the job properly. It makes you a target of everyone who wants to free an inmate, destroy the world, or who thinks they can turn its power to their personal advantage.

And you are being exposed to the inmates and their blandishments, some of whom are cognitohazards.
Its implied that Kemmler, for example, was not a bad guy before becoming Warden. Only after.
Rashid was deadly serious when he warned Harry about not using that particular leyline.

A entire community of humans lived on that island, for years which means the genus loci was fine with them living on the island again for years, something had to have been protecting them from the full brunt of the prisoners' malice and if it was doing so it had to have a reason. 'Liking humans' is the one these books imply.

Yog · Jul 13, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
That's not how that works though, as far as I see anyway. You get essence when you fulfill your nature, which basically maps to defending an intimacy for a mortal. You don't just get a hit of power whenever you recover willpower by any means.

True, but for the spirit those two are synonymous (which is why I initially planned to use Psychic Vampirism for this, so this would be more in line with "fulfill your nature", but @DragonParadox said Synergy by itself was valid). Its nature is to operate the ring and help the user of the ring. It wouldn't work like this for the user, I agree.

uju32 said:
1) This has been previously addressed multiple times.
By Word of Butcher, the Senior Council didnt say shit because they realized they needed a Warden now that things were coming to a head.

Are you intentionally misunderstanding me? This is your position I am disputing:

uju32 said:
Butcher has never even suggested that it was a position open to non-White Council wizard, even assuming any existed.
Else the Red Court would have gone for a power grab a long time ago by training some human warlock and sneaking them on to the island to try. Or the Fomori would have done it. Or the Denarians. Or the Black Council. Or the Kemmlerites.

How, mechanically, was White Council (or Demonreach itself) stopping someone, like Red King, or Thomas Raith, or, more realistically, Cowl, from walking in and claiming Demonreach? Was the island under active surveillance with a force of wardens ready to stop anyone trying? Were there wards? What?

In what way was the position closed to non-WC wizards? How, mechanically, was this enforced? As far as I can tell, the answer is "it wasn't". Meaning that non-WC affiliated wizards, could, in fact, be Wardens, and we have zero evidence, none at all, that the Warden's position was something traditionally belonging to a WC-affiliated wizard.

uju32 · Jul 13, 2024

Artemis1992 said:
Consider it in the light of the Setting-Fusion.

With the Exalted setting being a past of this age, it makes some sense that there are many more and less malevolent remants that don't fit into the world anymore.

Doesn't make Demonreach a happy fun place, but it leaves a lot of space for alternatives to the Dreseden-canonical horrors.

The Dresden Files has Dragons that come and go without restriction as long as they behave themselves.
Thor allegedly keeps impersonating college football players out in the Midwest IIRC; enroll as one, and vanish before graduation. There's other gods doing shit like professional wrestling.

There's an angel tending bar in Chicago.

Things that dont fit into the world anymore would be sleeping or otherwise camping out in the deep NeverNever, like a lot of the old divine pantheons.
Even undesirables like Iku-Turso ended up in less restrictive confinement.

To end up in Supernatural Supermax with the occult equivalent of a SUNDIAL-class self-destruct bomb under the prison set to go off if you or any of your fellow inmates successfully break out, you have to be rather worse than just not fitting into the world anymore.

Also?
Arawn appears to be implying that some of those books are connected to Kemmler, or at least Kemmler's tenure.

Your friend flips it open and reads slowly since she has to translate: "Upon the Lake That Should be Sea stands the Island that should be a Mountain, keeper of those things bright and protean which the world can no longer endure, yet which cannot be Cast Out for in the doing too much would be given to Those Beyond that they did not know before. Power is there that can break the Fate of the world, or reforge it. Once there was a dwelling-of-men there, once the island listened to harvest songs and delighted int he laughter of children and it was content in the children-of-earth it guarded, but in the Year of the Lord 1854 the deadly bile..." she frowns. "I think this just means 'Cholera', anyway cholera washed them away on black tides. None know the cause only that it became more perilous by far to tread there..." she stops again, longer.

"What?" you ask at least.

"It's just a note in my father's hand that says 'Kemmler', my father says that's a good reason to leave sleeping monsters lie, but that seems foolish to me after all I've seen. Sleeping monsters tend to wake up."

As if on cue another book falls down from a high shelf and this one slimmer and newer. "The new guardian managed to persuade one of the local men-of-business to open a canning factory on the island in the hopes of returning the spirit of the place to greater tranquility though it served him little in the end for the mortals were..." another stop, this one to edit less than polite terns you suspect. "Superstitious and foolish. They gave to the island only fear and anger so that is all they received in return."

"So the spooky prison for monsters likes... people?" you half ask. "We can probably find people for it."

Which makes the characterization of events automatically sus.
Genocidal necromancers do not make good character references.

DragonParadox said:
A entire community of humans lived on that island, for years which means the genus loci was fine with them living on the island again for years, something had to have been protecting them from the full brunt of the prisoners' malice and if it was doing so it had to have a reason. 'Liking humans' is the one these books imply.

*checks Small Favor*

The shoreline was covered in what looked like an old Western ghost town-only one that had been abandoned for so long that the trees had come back to reclaim the space. Most of the buildings had fallen down. Trees rose out of most of the ones that hadn't, and the sight reminded me, somehow, of an insect collection: empty shells pinned to a card. A sign, weathered beyond reading, hung from its only remaining link of rusting chain. It swung in the wind, aged metal squeaking. There was the skeleton of an old dock down at the shoreline, all broken wooden columns, standing up out of the water like the stumps of rotten teeth.

Rosanna, of course, wasn't having any issues with the weather. With her wings draped around her like a cloak, the demonic form she wore seemed inured to the cold, and her cloven hooves moved along the frozen, stony hillside as nimbly as a mountain goat's, her barb-tipped tail lashing back and forth dramatically as she went. Sanya walked along behind her, then me, and Michael brought up the rear. It wasn't a long walk, but it fit in a lot of unpleasantness into a little bit of time. The little town had been a company town, built up around what looked like an old cannery-a long building, falling to pieces now, at the very end of the ruined street.

The town as described is 19th century vintage, so we're looking at a very short tenure.
Simple reason: the then-Warden kept them there. For his own purposes.
Sorta like Simon Petrovich at Archangel.

Given that the then-Warden for part of the 19th century would have been Kemmler, they might not even have been alive.

Yog said:
Are you intentionally misunderstanding me? This is your position I am disputing:

No Im not.

Yog said:
How, mechanically, was White Council (or Demonreach itself) stopping someone, like Red King, or Thomas Raith, or, more realistically, Cowl, from walking in and claiming Demonreach? Was the island under active surveillance with a force of wardens ready to stop anyone trying? Were there wards? What?

In what way was the position closed to non-WC wizards? How, mechanically, was this enforced? As far as I can tell, the answer is "it wasn't". Meaning that non-WC affiliated wizards, could, in fact, be Wardens, and we have zero evidence, none at all, that the Warden's position was something traditionally belonging to a WC-affiliated wizard.

Demonreach wasnt under close active surveillance as of Small Favor. It might have been during peacetime, before the Wardens suffered severe casualties. Its not stated one way or the other.

Demonreach gets discretion over who it accepts as Warden. You cant just bind it against its will.
And as Kemmler will attest to, if at any point during your tenure, the Senior Council dispute your custodianship, they will show up with as many wizards and allies as they can put together and murk your ass.

The Red King and Thomas Raith arent mortals or wizards. Cowl is. And there arent many bad guy magic users willing to risk their noggin in close proximity with a powerful spirit programmed/charged by the founder of the White Council, who will vet you according to its own criteria, at least some of which you dont know.

Failing the evaluation might have consequences for more than just your ego.

DragonParadox · Jul 13, 2024

uju32 said:
The town as described is 19th century vintage, so we're looking at a very short tenure.
Simple reason: the then-Warden kept them there. For his own purposes.
Sorta like Simon Petrovich at Archangel.

Given that the then-Warden for part of the 19th century would have been Kemmler, they might not even have been alive.

Could be, Molly does not know more other than the texts in Arawn's library say the spirit of the place liked people, then they all died of cholera, then someone built a company town and they all got scared off.

Yog · Jul 13, 2024

uju32 said:
VOTE
[X] Wait to learn that the Church might know about Father Francis
-[X] While we wait, visit the north, the Empty Roost with the memories of murdered things. With Lydia + Dresden
-[X] All Things Betray + Hellscry Chakra + Excellencies as needed

RATIONALE
I am not currently aware of any reason to rush this. So wait for the church to get back to us with information.
And while we wait, go to the north place, to the Hollow Bread Roost, where the memories of murdered things darken the skies of the NeverNever.

Lydia has authority over the dead, so bring her.

At the very least we should be bringing spirit binders with us. This is literally what they have been training for for centuries

Sesparra · Jul 13, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Demonreach is more a frozen in carbonite type of prison. They're not actually awake.

Also, the place is only ever described in canon as full of mega monsters, bright and protean doesn't mean they aren't malicious. I wouldn't be surprised if it's primarily old near Rakasha lifeforms that enjoy eating people.

So…. Molly but older is what I'm hearing?/s

[X] Plan Proper Expedition
-[X] Use the current scene to find supernaturally aware descendants of people who lived on the nameless island via the crown. Maybe some of them would be willing to come and help put the spirit of the place in a better mood
-[X] Go to the Sanctuary to seek Spiritbinder help. A distraught spirit of a magical prison seems like something Labyrinth explorers might have experience with
-[X] Wait to learn that the Church might know about Father Francis

uju32 · Jul 13, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Could be, Molly does not know more other than the texts in Arawn's library say the spirit of the place liked people, then they all died of cholera, then someone built a company town and they all got scared off.

Just saying that looks sus to me.

If I liked a group of people, I wouldnt have them living on top of a multi-gigaton-class self-destruct.
Spirits can be alien, mind, but presumably not that alien.
Ditto humans.

Yog said:
At the very least we should be bringing spirit binders with us. This is literally what they have been training for for centuries

Why?
We are going to meet our local NeverNever neighbors and ask questions. Why bring spirit binders to a meet and greet? And given the numbers in play are described as "darkens the skies" we cant possibly bring enough to matter in the event of hostilities.

Besides, it makes it harder for Molly to retreat if she has to watch out for additional people.
She can bail with Harry and Lydia; start adding more people and things get iffier.
Given that Porter says that the Great Chicago Fire was fanned with wind from the North, best to exercise some caution.

BoredMan · Jul 13, 2024

DragonParadox said:
"Hi Molly I wanted to call you but Clippy told me you were at dance... recital, no that's not the word. Show?"

Wait. Which Molly did she call? There's only one Clippy I don't believe we gave the clones cyberdevils, an oversight. If she called our Molly then Clippy should've told her something else or did she just tell her the status of the closest clone? @DragonParadox

DragonParadox · Jul 13, 2024

BoredMan said:
Wait. Which Molly did she call? There's only one Clippy I don't believe we gave the clones cyberdevils, an oversight. If she called our Molly then Clippy should've told her something else or did she just tell her the status of the closest clone? @DragonParadox

She called in the middle of Molly doing something else and Molly Prime had not checked her messages yet

BoredMan · Jul 13, 2024

DragonParadox said:
She called in the middle of Molly doing something else and Molly Prime had not checked her messages yet

So she called Hope first then Prime Molly?

uju32 · Jul 13, 2024

BoredMan said:
So she called Hope first then Prime Molly?

Hope Carpenter is 7 years old.

Lydia called Molly Prime, and Clippy answered because we were at Hope's ballet class.
Presumably the other clones were also busy.
Some might even have been in Sanctuary; they have a Gift to allow them to cross over at will.

BronzeTongue · Jul 13, 2024

uju32 said:
Because Shagnasty is at least in part a creature of the material world?
Embermane is not.
Different base rules for different people.

You dont exactly expect that an Outsider would be able to walk onto and off Demonreach because Shagnasty or the Denarians could.

Iku was some sort of god in the material world, I'm not seeing an indication that either of the Rakashoids present in the quest so far are banned from reality at large.

uju32 said:
Conflicts of interest reviews are prospective, not retrospective

The point is not to find someone with no connections to anyone - that's basically impossible - but to check for extant hazards. Someone who wants to free people from a prison as their primary reason for being there is obviously in conflict with the Warden's position.

uju32 said:
Because our PoV character is the Warden of Demonreach.
Everyone else, from Murphy to Michael, says that Demonreach gives them nightmares just for coming there.

Demonreach has restrictions.
There is a reason it needs a Warden to do its job

You're relying on the rakashoid counting for the defenses only part of the time and the Denarian's plan basically being to leave a burning bag of dog poop on Demonreach's porch. This seems like a very unlikely arrangement of circumstances to me.

Yog said:
True, but for the spirit those two are synonymous (which is why I initially planned to use Psychic Vampirism for this, so this would be more in line with "fulfill your nature", but @DragonParadox said Synergy by itself was valid). Its nature is to operate the ring and help the user of the ring. It wouldn't work like this for the user, I agree.

But the spirit doesn't get the benefits of the splendor without the primal form feature unless I've missed a house rule. That's a significant part of the benefit to taking it.

DragonParadox · Jul 13, 2024

BoredMan said:
So she called Hope first then Prime Molly?

She called Prime Molly while she was busy with her little sister's dance thing and then she just did not check her missed calls. Since it was not flagged urgent she got to Lydia before looking at the message.

DragonParadox · Jul 13, 2024

Good night guys.

恐Drake · Jul 13, 2024

[X] Wait to learn that the Church might know about Father Francis
-[X] While we wait, visit the north, the Empty Roost with the memories of murdered things. With Lydia + Dresden
-[X] All Things Betray + Hellscry Chakra + Excellencies as needed

Mithrill · Jul 13, 2024

[X] Plan Proper Expedition

BoredMan · Jul 13, 2024

uju32 said:
Hope Carpenter is 7 years old.

Lydia called Molly Prime, and Clippy answered because we were at Hope's ballet class.

DragonParadox said:
She called Prime Molly while she was busy with her little sister's dance thing and then she just did not check her missed calls. Since it was not flagged urgent she got to Lydia before looking at the message.

Oh, I thought Hope was one of the clone acronyms aswell.

Goldfish · Jul 13, 2024

[X] uju32

BoredMan · Jul 13, 2024

[X] Wait to learn that the Church might know about Father Francis
-[X] While we wait, visit the north, the Empty Roost with the memories of murdered things. With Lydia + Dresden
-[X] All Things Betray + Hellscry Chakra + Excellencies as needed

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination

Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.