Which made sense, then, really. Bloodshed and misery and deprivation was part and parcel with human existence in that region as it would be for a very, very long time. To create a new Rome as the old crumbled would have been something that would require wading across a sea of blood but, once the blade had passed, it would have passed. Mankind would heal and recover and grow and, in a century or so, the harm would have been outweighed.
It just isn't something that would remotely help today unless we go Mad Max. Arthur would have to learn to go Wolfram and Hart, like some of the plans we had for Molly ages ago, if he was going to make a damn thing better than worse.
Otherwise he's just the guy the US Government drops a nuke on, instead of Vegas.
Hera's fuckery was only responsible for a fraction of what happened in his life, and his silver spoon is the only reason he made it out of childhood in the first place. The man started adulthood by murdering his music teacher with a lyre for correcting him, and still got into another prestigious mentorship. That set a pattern.
Hera literally delayed his and his brother's birth and would have done so till they died in the womb to prevent either of them from being King of the Kingdom they were born to. Then she sent snakes to kill them both even though she knew only one of them was a spawn of Zeus.
"Linus reprimanded him for making errors and punished him with rods. The pupil flew into a rage and violently struck his teacher with his own lyre.[28] When he was tried for murder, Heracles quoted a law of Rhadamanthys, who laid it down that whoever defends himself against a wrongful aggressor shall go free, and so he was acquitted" his music teacher was beating him with rods to the point where he argued in court he was beating me with rods so I fucking beat him up and the court acquitted him because yes fucking beating people with rods is a way to get them to kill you.
Hercules murdered his way across a good chunk of Greece and the Aegean. He killed one king and his sons and sacked his city for refusing to give him his daughter. He killed another king for not letting him into his kingdom.
He sacked Troy because the then-king owed him horses.
The king of Troy did not just owe him horses. He had done the king of Troy a service that literally put him in the line of fire with Poseidon because the monster that was set on the city due to his (The King) arrogance was his fault and he got Hercules to handle it and then he tried to stiff him. He was right to take his payment and the horses fuck off with that shit you piss off a God and the God sends a monster then you piss off a demigod and then expect something good to happen fuck you.
Amnytor try to have Hercules killed for passing through his kingdom I really don't feel the need to defend Hercules for not letting himself die.
"Heracles fell in love with Princess Iole of Oechalia. King Eurytus of Oechalia promised his daughter, Iole, to whoever could beat his sons in an archery contest. Heracles won but Eurytus abandoned his promise. Heracles' advances were spurned by the king and his sons, except for one: Iole's brother Iphitus. Heracles killed the king and his sons—excluding Iphitus—and abducted Iole. Iphitus became Heracles' best friend. However, once again, Hera drove Heracles mad and he threw Iphitus over the city wall to his death. Once again, Heracles purified himself through three years of servitude—this time to Queen Omphale of Lydia." Also sacking a city as means just taking valuables from the place not actually destroying it like you seem to be suggesting though you might not be doing that.
Dude was a Greek hero. He did mighty things. He was also indisputably an asshole.
In Greek mythology, when just badmouthing a god gets you turned into an object lesson, dude was out there stabbing and shooting major gods, and noone follows up because of who Daddy is.
The man injured Ares, Hera and Hades and walked away without harm.
Even his death was his fault.
He had a wife Daeanira, he kidnaps another woman Iole as a wife/concubine, wiping out her entire family to do so.
And in order to keep his love, the wife resorts to desperate measures.
And even after he dies, he still gets turned into a god.
Considering how many people men women kings queens kingdoms gods and general beings loved him if they met him and weren't enemies it's hard to say for sure that he was an asshole seems more like your opinion.
He doesn't get away from those situations just because of whose Daddy is. He gets in those situations because he's a hero and Athena is the guardian of Heroes and she is a part of the dodecatheon not to mention he captured Artemis' hind so she was also on his side not to mention the crap ton of other quests and stuff he does for other gods that back him. I've never heard of him actually injuring Hades though I don't doubt it happened or you know I miss that I don't but the closest I can find is him clutching Thanatos real tight which is not really injuring but rather preventing him from carrying on his duties long enough for this random mortal woman to continue living with her husband.
I don't really feel the need to say that your wife killing you because she's jealous is bullshit especially when she does it on accident because a centaur that tried to have his way with her drenches a thing with blood and has someone deliver it under the pretense of it'll help spice up the relationship a little bit. Doesn't really seem purposeful that she killed them.
Exaltation sans Great Curse doesn't really push you to do stuff. And "power corrupts" is a very defeatist notion. Power enables.
Also, I'll note that, at least as far as I remember, while exaltations may not go only to altruistic good people, they very rarely, if ever, go to outright evil people.
Harmonious Jade Exalted while working as an assassin for a demonic cult
Havesh The Vanisher is a Night Caste serial killer
Lyta the Dawn Caste is a psychotic megalomaniac with a penchant for burning DBs alive
Filial Wisdom serves the god of decay
They are mythic heroes of ages past.
How many supernatural things did Arthur's knights kill in the various versions of his story?
I wasn't totally joking about the Scion crossover, WoD might not have the mechanics for it, but superhuman heroes going on epic quests, capable of opposing minor gods like Arawn do seem to fit in that.
Someone who is larger than life without being a monster or wizard.
The latter-day Arthurian myths were pretty low magic, particularly with regards to who they encountered.
Im not as familiar with the Welsh Triads.
Nevertheless, killing gods was generally supposed to be outside their portfolio.
You are oversimplyfying and pushing an agenda, I believe. I am not prepared in engaging in a lengthy debate on the issue, and I believe neither of us is qualified (you'd need a degree in ancient greek literature for that).
On the subject of Arthur - if we take Excalibur to be Amoracchius, then conquest of Britain was fully approved by White God.
I do not believe so.
For every incident that he blames on Hera, there was one or more that he committed with clear eyes and no prompting.
And got away clean for it.
Right there in the Labors, there's multiple incidents where he goes to other people chilling at their homes, kills them, and steals their shit. He did it to Geryon when he killed him to steal his cattle.
He did it to Hippolya when he murdered her while he was her guest.
Mighty guy, dont get me wrong. Still an asshole.
But then, most Greek heroes and gods were.
===
For one thing, Excalibur was not Arthur's only weapon.
In the Welsh myths, he had the sword Caledfwych, the spear Rhongomyniad and the dagger Carnwennan. His possession of Excalibur does not make it his only weapon.
For another, Dresden has been guardian of Fidelacchius for at least two years.
Doesnt mean that all his actions were sponsored by the White God.
[X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days
So Arthur lost the Sword after trying to use it to conquer Rome? I'm wondering how exactly he used Excalibur before then because conquering lands was something he did. I guess he only wielded it for specific encounters? I suppose that depends on what from the myths are actually canon here.
[X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days
[x] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.
Which made sense, then, really. Bloodshed and misery and deprivation was part and parcel with human existence in that region as it would be for a very, very long time. To create a new Rome as the old crumbled would have been something that would require wading across a sea of blood but, once the blade had passed, it would have passed. Mankind would heal and recover and grow and, in a century or so, the harm would have been outweighed.
It just isn't something that would remotely help today unless we go Mad Max. Arthur would have to learn to go Wolfram and Hart, like some of the plans we had for Molly ages ago, if he was going to make a damn thing better than worse.
Otherwise he's just the guy the US Government drops a nuke on, instead of Vegas.
Yes. But my point is - why should we take the conquest of Britain against Arthur if we don't take it against Amaracchius? Why should we assume that he'll be stuck on his goal in the face of changed circumstances? He's not a static automaton, but a mortal with free will.
Harmonious Jade Exalted while working as an assassin for a demonic cult
Havesh The Vanisher is a Night Caste serial killer
Lyta the Dawn Caste is a psychotic megalomaniac with a penchant for burning DBs alive
Filial Wisdom serves the god of decay
I'll grudgingly give you Harmonious Jade. Grudgingly, because she's an orphan raised from childhood to be an assassin and knows nothing else, so her culpability is arguable. Others I want citations on, because they are not in the Scroll of Exalts, and so I can't argue about them, not knowing the source text. 1 or even 4 out of 20 examples, though, indicates that exaltations predominantly go to non-villainous people.
They passed still living into the Underworld seeking the treasures of Arawn that they might revive Arthur though his time had come, his fate was sealed. They stole the Cauldron of Rebirth but before they could use it the hounds and the armies of Arawn fell upon them and dragged them and it back. After all these years in the depths of the spirit world it is unlikely that any of them could walk the earth just by wishing it but they are heroes of old, the blood of gods in their veins. If they are freed they will find a way,
Right there in the Labors, there's multiple incidents where he goes to other people chilling at their homes, kills them, and steals their shit. He did it to Geryon when he killed him to steal his cattle.
He did it to Hippolya when he murdered her while he was her guest.
You do remember what the Labors were? They weren't just him going on adventures. They were his divinely appointed atonement for the crime of murdering his family due to a fit of madness induced by Hera:
After recovering his sanity, Heracles deeply regretted his actions; he was purified by King Thespius, then traveled to Delphi to inquire how he could atone for his actions. Pythia, the Oracle of Delphi, advised him to go to Tiryns and serve his cousin, King Eurystheus of Mycenae, for twelve years,[7] performing whatever labours Eurystheus might set him; in return, he would be rewarded with immortality.
It was literally divinely appointed task, with a promise of immortality as a reward. And it was doubly moral - it was the will of the gods / fates that he serve the king, and the will of the king (and, thus, law) that he performs this specific task. He was perfectly correct to perform them.
Geryon, I remind you, was not just some farmer Heracles stole his cattle from. He was a monster - son of Chrysaor and Callirrhoe, the grandson of Medusa and the nephew of Pegasus. Who attacked Heracles first. Yes, Heracles was steeling his cattle, sure. But that was a legitimate raid / conquest, because, again, it was in service of his king.
What source of morality should have he been following if not the will of his gods, the dictate of fate, and the laws of the land?
For one thing, Excalibur was not Arthur's only weapon.
In the Welsh myths, he had the sword Caledfwych, the spear Rhongomyniad and the dagger Carnwennan. His possession of Excalibur does not make it his only weapon.
For another, Dresden has been guardian of Fidelacchius for at least two years.
Doesnt mean that all his actions were sponsored by the White God.
Reread the update. Amorachius was only against Arthur expanding his conquest beyond Britain, at which point Arthur put the sword down, and stopped being a knight of the cross.
So Arthur lost the Sword after trying to use it to conquer Rome? I'm wondering how exactly he used Excalibur before then because conquering lands was something he did. I guess he only wielded it for specific encounters? I suppose that depends on what from the myths are actually canon here.
The Sidereals fucked a lot of things up, but that doesn't mean the opposite position is a great idea. These are legitimate concerns and I think they deserve more consideration than a shrug and some rhetoric about how imperialists with godlike power is a great plan.
I'll grudgingly give you Harmonious Jade. Grudgingly, because she's an orphan raised from childhood to be an assassin and knows nothing else, so her culpability is arguable. Others I want citations on, because they are not in the Scroll of Exalts, and so I can't argue about them, not knowing the source text. 1 or even 4 out of 20 examples, though, indicates that exaltations predominantly go to non-villainous people.
Of all of them, Harmonious Jade is arguably the least culpable, precisely because she was born into it. But she was still what she was when she Exalted.
Of the rest? Filial Wisdom is in the Ruins of Rathess.
Lyta first appears in Caste Book Dawn, 1st Ed. Havesh the Vanisher first appears in Caste Book Night, 1st Ed.
Ophilis Ses is the snakeman crimelord who also appears in Caste Book Night.
To what extent, though?
Olivia has the blood of gods in her veins too, IIRC, its just very far back.
A lot of humanity have a little of one or the other.
Besides, being a demigod doesnt confer the ability to kill gods anyway.
You do remember what the Labors were? They weren't just him going on adventures. They were his divinely appointed atonement for the crime of murdering his family due to a fit of madness induced by Hera:
Like I said, the Labors left him a lot of freeway in how he accomplished them.
The Aegean Stables didnt demand he sweep them manually.
The apples of the Hesperides didnt demand that he pick them himself either.
Its instructive that even when dealing with people, his preferred response was murder every time it was someone he thought he could overcome.
Geryon, I remind you, was not just some farmer Heracles stole his cattle from. He was a monster - son of Chrysaor and Callirrhoe, the grandson of Medusa and the nephew of Pegasus. Who attacked Heracles first. Yes, Heracles was steeling his cattle, sure. But that was a legitimate raid / conquest, because, again, it was in service of his king.
What source of morality should have he been following if not the will of his gods, the dictate of fate, and the laws of the land?
They were not at war.
And King E didnt tell him to steal the cattle. It was grand larceny writ large.
Geryon's ancestry was irrelevant; many godborn have nonhuman form. He was home, he wasnt hurting anyone.
Hercules rolled up, killed his dog, murdered his shepherd, and proceeded to steal his cattle.
He didnt attempt to buy them, or bargain for them, he jumped to murder.
Reread the update. Amorachius was only against Arthur expanding his conquest beyond Britain, at which point Arthur put the sword down, and stopped being a knight of the cross.
Of all of them, Harmonious Jade is arguably the least culpable, precisely because she was born into it. But she was still what she was when she Exalted.
Of the rest? Filial Wisdom is in the Ruins of Rathess.
Lyta first appears in Caste Book Dawn, 1st Ed. Havesh the Vanisher first appears in Caste Book Night, 1st Ed.
Ophilis Ses is the snakeman crimelord who also appears in Caste Book Night.
Which made sense, then, really. Bloodshed and misery and deprivation was part and parcel with human existence in that region as it would be for a very, very long time. To create a new Rome as the old crumbled would have been something that would require wading across a sea of blood but, once the blade had passed, it would have passed. Mankind would heal and recover and grow and, in a century or so, the harm would have been outweighed.
I think even that is too charitable. Roman Empire kinda just replaced the wars between independent polities with civil wars over who gets to be the Emperor.
Unless he already had some source of longevity before Avalon, then Arthur's Britonic-Roman Empire would have likely just died with him. Making all that bloodshed pointless.
Hera literally delayed his and his brother's birth and would have done so till they died in the womb to prevent either of them from being King of the Kingdom they were born to. Then she sent snakes to kill them both even though she knew only one of them was a spawn of Zeus.
"Linus reprimanded him for making errors and punished him with rods. The pupil flew into a rage and violently struck his teacher with his own lyre.[28] When he was tried for murder, Heracles quoted a law of Rhadamanthys, who laid it down that whoever defends himself against a wrongful aggressor shall go free, and so he was acquitted" his music teacher was beating him with rods to the point where he argued in court he was beating me with rods so I fucking beat him up and the court acquitted him because yes fucking beating people with rods is a way to get them to kill you.
1) Hera delayed HIS birth, so his brother was born first. She had no beef with his brother. She sent snakes to kill HIM.
But even at that point he had Athena watching over him, and Athena conspired further to have Hera breastfeed him without being aware of his identity.
Hercules has always been a nepo-baby.
Hera's beef with him was a fucked up thing in and of itself, for no fault of baby Hercules' making.
However, Hercules grew up into a menace to society all on his own.
2)He was a student in a society where corporal punishment was accepted.
And he murdered his teacher for correcting him:
Article:
Linus also, who was admired because of his poetry and singing, had many pupils, and four of greatest renown, Heracles, Thamyris, Orpheus, and Musaeus. After he went to Thebes and became a Theban,[26] he taught music as well as letters to the young Heracles.[27] The boy, learning to play the lyre, was unable to appreciate what was taught him because of his sluggishness of soul. While Heracles was touching the instrument unmusically, Linus reprimanded him for making errors and punished him with rods. The pupil flew into a rage and violently struck his teacher with his own lyre.[28] When he was tried for murder, Heracles quoted a law of Rhadamanthys, who laid it down that whoever defends himself against a wrongful aggressor shall go free, and so he was acquitted. He was then sent by his mortal father, Amphitryon to tend his cowherds.[26]
He was acquitted because of who his father is.
Anyone else in his position would have been pegged for murder.
The king of Troy did not just owe him horses. He had done the king of Troy a service that literally put him in the line of fire with Poseidon because the monster that was set on the city due to his (The King) arrogance was his fault and he got Hercules to handle it and then he tried to stiff him. He was right to take his payment and the horses fuck off with that shit you piss off a God and the God sends a monster then you piss off a demigod and then expect something good to happen fuck you.
Amnytor try to have Hercules killed for passing through his kingdom I really don't feel the need to defend Hercules for not letting himself die.
"Heracles fell in love with Princess Iole of Oechalia. King Eurytus of Oechalia promised his daughter, Iole, to whoever could beat his sons in an archery contest. Heracles won but Eurytus abandoned his promise. Heracles' advances were spurned by the king and his sons, except for one: Iole's brother Iphitus. Heracles killed the king and his sons—excluding Iphitus—and abducted Iole. Iphitus became Heracles' best friend. However, once again, Hera drove Heracles mad and he threw Iphitus over the city wall to his death. Once again, Heracles purified himself through three years of servitude—this time to Queen Omphale of Lydia." Also sacking a city as means just taking valuables from the place not actually destroying it like you seem to be suggesting though you might not be doing that.
He killed King Lacomedon of Troy. Defensible, since Lacomedon stiffed him. Then he killed all his sons except for Priam. And he SACKED the city of Troy. A sack is the plundering of a captured city, which involves everything from looting of property to rape and enslavement.
2)Amnytor denied Heracles permission to pass through his kingdom.
So of course, Hercules killed him and fucked his daughter, sticking her with a child
Article:
When Amyntor refused Heracles permission to pass through his kingdom, Heracles killed Amyntor and fathered a son Ctesippus, by Astydamia. During the Trojan War, Odysseus received a helmet that had originally belonged to Amyntor.
Astydamia was Amyntor's daughter.
3) Read the thing in full:
Article:
Apollodorus recounted the tale in his Bibliotheca. King Eurytus was an expert archer who taught his sons his knowledge of the bow and arrow. He promised his daughter Iole to whoever could beat him and his sons in an archery contest. The sons shot so well that they beat all the others from the kingdom. Heracles then heard of the prize and eagerly entered the contest, for he desired the maiden. Heracles shot with keenness and even beat Eurytus' scores. It is ironic because Eurytus, in his early years, had taught Heracles to become an archer.[1]
When the king realized that Heracles was winning, he stopped the contest and forbade him to participate. Eurytus was well-aware of Heracles' murder of his previous wife Megara and their children, and was thus afraid that Iole and her offspring by him would suffer the same fate. Eventually, Heracles had won the contest but was not entitled to the prize because of his reputation. Eurytus broke his promise to give his royal daughter to the winner of the archery contest.
Iphitos urged his father to reconsider, but Eurytus did not pay any heed and stood by his decision. Heracles had not left the city yet when Eurytus' mares were run off, presumably by Autolycus, a notorious thief. Iphitos asked Heracles to help him find them, which he agreed to do so. Heracles, in one display of his madness, hurled Iphitos over the city walls, murdering him.[1] According to Diodorus Siculus, it was Heracles himself who drove off the mares of Eurytus in revenge.[4] The hero had failed in his courtship to win Iole.[5]
After the archery contest, Heracles went to Calydon, where, on the steps of the temple, he saw Deianira, Prince Meleager's sister. He forgot about Iole for a while and wooed her, eventually won her over and married her. Heracles, after acquiring a kingdom and in control of an army, went about to kill Eurytus in revenge for not giving up his promised prize.[6] Hyginus added that Heracles not only murdered Eurytus, but also slew Iole's brothers and other relatives as well.[7]
The hero plundered Oechalia and overthrew its walls,[1] while Iole threw herself down from the high city wall to escape. It turned out that the garment she was wearing opened up and acted like a parachute, which ensured her soft and safe descent.[5] Heracles took Iole as a captive.[6] His wife, Deianira, did not want Iole to become Heracles' concubine but she forebore to object and tolerated it temporarily.[3]
Deianira feared she would lose Heracles to the younger and more beautiful Iole.[7] Years earlier, the centaur Nessus had ferried her across the river Evenus and attempted to rape her when they were on the other side. Heracles saved her from Nessus by shooting him with poisoned arrows.[8] She had kept some of Nessus' blood, for the centaur told her, with his dying breath, that if she were to give Heracles a cloak (chiton) soaked in his blood, it would be a love charm.[9] Deianira, concerned by Heracles' infidelity, believed Nessus' lie that Heracles would no longer desire any other woman after he was under the spell of the love philter.[10] This seemed like the solution to her problem of reclaiming her husband's love from Iole, the foreign concubine. The cloak was delivered to Heracles and, when he put it on, the poison went into his body.[10] Deianira had unwittingly poisoned her husband with this purported love potion. Upon realizing the mistake she had made, Deianira killed herself.[7] Because of his love for Iole, Heracles asked his eldest son Hyllus to marry her so that she would be well taken care of.[2] Iole and Hyllus had a son called Cleodaeus,[11] and also three daughters, Evaechme,[12] Aristaechme, and Hyllis.[13]
Eurytus was Hercules' archery teacher. He forbade Hercules from competing.
Upon which Hercules takes offence, first kills the youngest brother, then comes back later, kills the entire family, sacks their home city, and carries off the daughter.
And thats the second person who was his teacher who we know he killed.
Make no mistake, Hercules is ajudged to be the greatest Greek hero that ever lived in Greek mythology, and an incredibly formidable ally to have in your corner.
He was also an incredibly toxic asshole who could just as easily turn on you as remain your friend.
1) Hera delayed HIS birth, so his brother was born first. She had no beef with his brother. She sent snakes to kill HIM.
But even at that point he had Athena watching over him, and Athena conspired further to have Hera breastfeed him without being aware of his identity.
Hercules has always been a nepo-baby.
Hera's beef with him was a fucked up thing in and of itself, for no fault of baby Hercules' making.
However, Hercules grew up into a menace to society all on his own.
Excalibur is not the Sword In The Stone; it was the one he received from the Lady in The Lake.
Since Excalibur here is not Fae, a lot of assumptions from Arthurian mythos are not valid. Especially since we appear to be drawing from the Welsh Triads, not the later stories of Le Morte du Arthur and the Vulgate Cycle.
Twins are not born at the same time, as any doctor or midwife will tell you.
The median interval between birth of twins is about 19 minutes; the world record is roughly 87 days.
According to Pausanias, Linus' death was very prominent that mourning to him spread widely even to all foreign land that even Egyptians made a Linus song, in the language called Maneros. He also added that of the Greek poets, Homer shows that he knew of the sufferings of Linus were the theme of a Greek song when he says, that Hephaestus, among the other scenes he worked upon the shield of Achilles, represented a boy harpist singing the Linus song: "In the midst of them a boy on a clear-toned lyre Played with great charm, and to his playing sang of beautiful Linus."[30]
So was hitting those, who hit you first, for a free person. I would honestly rate trying to beat your demigod student as a suicide, if your names isn't Chiron.
Who Heracles was no doubt played some role in sentencing, but there's no inclination that the defense offered was considered inherently fallacious. Even if it was an excuse to let him go, it was accepted as a *valid* excuse.
And anyway, if you are trying to prove to modern audiences how Heracles was bad, this particular argument is not it.
Thats not the commemorialization of someone who was killed in the commission of a crime or a transgression.
[X] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.
So was hitting those, who hit you first, for a free person. I would honestly rate trying to beat your demigod student as a suicide, if your names isn't Chiron.
Who Heracles was no doubt played some role in sentencing, but there's no inclination that the defense offered was considered inherently fallacious. Even if it was an excuse to let him go, it was accepted as a *valid* excuse.
And anyway, if you are trying to prove to modern audiences how Heracles was bad, this particular argument is not it.
Not for minors.
Not in a society where respect for elders was as important as ancient Greece, iirc.
And especially since Linus was himself allegedly godspawn.
