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Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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- Tempe, AZ
Most people don't make an informed choice about their first language.
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1)Charity was a talent, not a wizard. She NEVER had wizard-tier magic.I think this might be a bit facetious or very least not quite right because charity full-on had magic and now it does not anymore. Speaking a language no matter how powerful language it is isn't the same as I was a full-on wizard tier talent and now I am not anymore. Unless you're going to compare knowing a language to being a full wizard then I'm going to say it's not that serious no matter how well it predisposes someone to the supernatural.
If you're worried about exposure then you were multiple months too late. The baby's mother was magically interfacing with an infernal for multiple months before she was born had magic cast on her by a full Wizard Talent beforehand and has magic of her own. If your worried about somehow knowing a language that is still a language it isn't Magic by itself a grants a greater understanding of magical things because it's perfectly descriptive but it's not Magic by itself we can't cause reality to change just by speaking or do any other magical shit just by speaking either is somehow worse or equal or anywhere near any of those I've got a bridge to sell you in Nevada.1)Charity was a talent, not a wizard. She NEVER had wizard-tier magic.
2) Charity is married to a Knight of the Cross, and in so doing plunged head first into the supernatural world.
Her angel-warded panic room is not for show.
She has been kidnapped and attacked by a mad necromancer's ghost while pregnant with her youngest in Grave Peril, had a detachment of fetches attack her house in Proven Guilty, been jumped by the Summer Queen's preferred assassins in Small Favor. Met an archangel and the heads of the Denarians in Skin Game
Had a dedicated hit team of fomor servitors sent by Ethniu to murder her and her entire family in Battle Grounds after her husband was retired.
All of which demonstrates my point.
At a sufficient level of exposure, the supernatural doesnt forget about you, even if you try to forget about it.
This shit leaves a mark.
3) The whole discussion about Primordial is not about language, its about supernatural exposure that forces permanent changes in the student. Thats not something that I am comfortable compelling on a baby.
The supernatural is not an entirely benign place in the Dresdenverse.
Just knowledge can be harmful, and children get certain protections until they are old enough to make their own decisions in the Dresdenverse.
For example, soul-gazes do not proc on children.
Most of them cant make binding deals either, which is why the evil and opportunists leave them alone instead of trying to get them to sell their soul or similar shit.
Risking voiding the warranty because you have some agenda to force magical enlightenment early is at best, a mistake.
I would have the same objection if it was some music or food or visits to a zoo or whatever.
The vector of the effect isnt important, the effect itself is.
1)Charity was a talent, not a wizard. She NEVER had wizard-tier magic.
2) Charity is married to a Knight of the Cross, and in so doing plunged head first into the supernatural world.
Her angel-warded panic room is not for show.
She has been kidnapped and attacked by a mad necromancer's ghost while pregnant with her youngest in Grave Peril, had a detachment of fetches attack her house in Proven Guilty, been jumped by the Summer Queen's preferred assassins in Small Favor. Met an archangel and the heads of the Denarians in Skin Game
Had a dedicated hit team of fomor servitors sent by Ethniu to murder her and her entire family in Battle Grounds after her husband was retired.
All of which demonstrates my point.
At a sufficient level of exposure, the supernatural doesnt forget about you, even if you try to forget about it.
This shit leaves a mark.
3) The whole discussion about Primordial is not about language, its about supernatural exposure that forces permanent changes in the student. Thats not something that I am comfortable compelling on a baby.
The supernatural is not an entirely benign place in the Dresdenverse.
Just knowledge can be harmful, and children get certain protections until they are old enough to make their own decisions in the Dresdenverse.
For example, soul-gazes do not proc on children.
Most of them cant make binding deals either, which is why the evil and opportunists leave them alone instead of trying to get them to sell their soul or similar shit.
Risking voiding the warranty because you have some agenda to force magical enlightenment early is at best, a mistake.
I would have the same objection if it was some music or food or visits to a zoo or whatever.
The vector of the effect isnt important, the effect itself is.
Babies start talking at ~ 10 months of age (10 to 14). That's quest time, even assuming no time skips or such later.I'm not going to vote to teach Amanda this, because besides thinking it's an exaggeration that won't have an effect on the quest time, I'm almost certain, considering your votes, that you'll use this victory as an excuse to try to spread the knowledge to all humanity later and I have zero interest in it
What the hell? Back this up with a citation. As far as I know, Charity was a full wizard.1)Charity was a talent, not a wizard. She NEVER had wizard-tier magic.
No, it's about language too. But to take your bait - Amanda is already exposed to the supernatural, has no angelic protection, and normal mundane humans are cattle in Dresden Verse. They enjoy no significant benefits, and are often victims of supernatural. There's no tangible benefit to keeping someone ignorant, outside of specific circumstances, like being a knight's family, which affords one protection as job benefit for the knights from White God.3) The whole discussion about Primordial is not about language, its about supernatural exposure that forces permanent changes in the student. Thats not something that I am comfortable compelling on a baby.
And yet, they can become denarians as toddlers. "Protections" are... not very complete, to say the least. Ignorance is very much not bliss.For example, soul-gazes do not proc on children.
Most of them cant make binding deals either, which is why the evil and opportunists leave them alone instead of trying to get them to sell their soul or similar shit.
Well, it is bliss if you can weaponize it but is kinda hard. Though introducing a walking "paradox" generator into Dresdenverse may be fun.And yet, they can become denarians as toddlers. "Protections" are... not very complete, to say the least. Ignorance is very much not bliss.
No, when I say effects during the time of the mission, I am referring to the various possible advantages that you were using to justify teaching the language to her, unless you wanted a baby or a child under 5 years to be an active part of magic ritual?Babies start talking at ~ 10 months of age (10 to 14). That's quest time, even assuming no time skips or such later.
No, I didn't want her to participate in magic rituals, but I would enjoy reading about Amanda growing up as a tetriary plot thread. Her starting to talk and the fun things that happen when she talks in Primordial language are a payoff for me, it would be amusing, I feel.No, when I say effects during the time of the mission, I am referring to the various possible advantages that you were using to justify teaching the language to her, unless you wanted a baby or a child under 5 years to be an active part of magic ritual?
I have no problems with using the Source Code to ask what Amanda wants when she is crying, as mentioned by another person.
In order:If you're worried about exposure then you were multiple months too late. The baby's mother was magically interfacing with an infernal for multiple months before she was born had magic cast on her by a full Wizard Talent beforehand and has magic of her own. If your worried about somehow knowing a language that is still a language it isn't Magic by itself a grants a greater understanding of magical things because it's perfectly descriptive but it's not Magic by itself we can't cause reality to change just by speaking or do any other magical shit just by speaking either is somehow worse or equal or anywhere near any of those I've got a bridge to sell you in Nevada.
That warranty is also horseshit if your parents have magic as seen by almost denarian Harry who if a wizard wasn't there to catch the coin would have been denarian child with no knowledge of magic Harry. Having Supernatural parents is enough to void that warranty and we're essentially being one of the kids parents and Rosie has magic.
Oh, they arent immune to physical attack. Supernatural predators can and do kill themA small note here, while it is true that kids have some protection against certain classes of magic they do not have much in the way of protection from supernatural predators. Remember Nergui the vampire, his name means 'Nameless', he got that as a small child as a means of protecting him from evil spirits on the Mongolian steppe. Things did not stop feeding on children in the meantime. There are entire classes of vampires, predatory fey and other stranger monsters that prefer feeding on children.
That said yes a five year old who speaks Primordial could absolutely sell their soul.
She was NEVER a wizard-class magic user. She knew this, the White Council even tested her.What the hell? Back this up with a citation. As far as I know, Charity was a full wizard.
If it was about language, you'd stick to teaching them Spanish.No, it's about language to. But to take your bait - Amanda is already exposed to the supernatural, has no angelic protection, and normal mundane humans are cattle in Dresden Verse. They enjoy no significant benefits, and are often victims of supernatural. There's no tangible benefit to keeping someone ignorant, outside of specific circumstances, like being a knight's family, which affords one protection as job benefit for the knights from White God.
1) A Coin of one of the Thirty is in itself a pretty potent magical influence that you have to choose to pick up.And yet, they can become denarians as toddlers. "Protections" are... not very complete, to say the least. Ignorance is very much not bliss.
I'm sure I've already said this to Yog, but his style is to try to use everything we could do and distribute it to as many ordinary people as possible. I don't deny it's often a good deed, even if sometimes he doesn't take it into account all the consequences, but it's not the style of quest I want to see or find interesting.Okay, that's a rather derogatory way to say that. Yog has leadings that don't just arbitrarily hog the knowledge that we're not using that people are looking for. This tendency to just say no we know things and we're just never going to tell anyone just because is horseshit it is literally exalted Behavior and wizard Behavior the worst kind of exalted Behavior Dragon blooded Behavior too. Oh they don't need to know the information that they devoted their lives to finding we can just never tell them or never even give a hint or just silently put the information out there even if nothing ever comes from it it's good that they have it.
To treat the arbitrary hoarding of knowledge that literally can't hurt anyone as virtuous or good is obviously horseshit it's one thing not to want to do with it it's another to say it's a good thing note I'm not saying primordial language this is more about the aliens thing.
To give proof to the shitty magical personal hoarding knowledge that people are spending their lives trying to find and study behavior that I'm speaking of.
No, I didn't want her to participate in magic rituals, but I would enjoy reading about Amanda growing up as a tetriary plot thread. Her starting to talk and the fun things that happen when she talks in Primordial language are a payoff for me, it would be amusing, I feel.
Okay, just because you're not forced to doesn't mean it's not shitty. The council's reasons are not good or at very least don't make sense under the premise that they're pushing. Molly herself in that instance realizes what the fuck that's terrible and while she agrees that some things are better left unsaid or no one is forcing the white Council to do anything Molly obviously sees a problem with the behavior.I'm sure I've already said this to Yog, but his style is to try to use everything we could do and distribute it to as many ordinary people as possible. I don't deny it's often a good deed, even if sometimes he doesn't take it into account all the consequences, but it's not the style of quest I want to see or find interesting.
So, when I see an option that I don't like, I sometimes highlight it and explain why I don't like it. Since the quest is a place where we vote on what we find most interesting, I don't see a problem with my behavior. Unless I am forced to agree or vote for the options I don't like because they are "the best options for society" or "it's the right behavior instead of *something else*".
And if you follow the discussion followed by this quote, it showed several reasons why the Council did not explain this, only one of them (that I remember more or less) being reasons that they would have to spend time trying to wash this knowledge (something that Harry himself points out in that same quote) when they could be doing something else, being this something more important or just something they like more.
And finally, no one is forced to share all their knowledge, people/organizations do it because there is a return or there is some benefit.
If Arthur finds anything wrong with the British museum I'll eat my hat. The leadership is just not in a place to be open like that.
PHYSICAL | SOCIAL | MENTAL | |
Strength ●●●●●●●●●● | Charisma ●●●●●●○ |
| |
Dexterity ●●●●●●●●●● | Manipulation ●●●●●○○ | Intelligence ●●●●●●●●●● | |
Stamina ●●●●●●●●●● | Appearance ●●○○○○○ | Wits ●●●●●●●●●● |
TALENTS (primary + 11 expertise points) | SKILLS (secondary + 2 expertise point) | KNOWLEDGES (tetriary + 9 expertise points) | |
| Animal Ken ○○○○○ | Academics ●●○○○ | |
Athletics ○○○○○ | Crafts ○○○○○ | Computer ○○○○○ | |
Awareness ●●●●● | Drive ○○○○○ | Finance ●●○○○ | |
Brawl ●●●●● | Etiquette ●●●○○ | Investigation ○○○○○ | |
| Firearms ●●○○○ | Law ●●○○○ | |
Expression ○○○○○ | Larceny ●●○○○ | Medicine ○○○○○ | |
Intimidation ○○○○○ | Melee ●●○○○ | Occult ●●○○○ | |
Leadership ○○○○○ | Performance ○○○○○ | Politics ●●○○○ | |
Streetwise ●●●●●● | Stealth ○○○○○ | Science ●●○○○ | |
Subterfuge ○○○○○ | Survival ●●○○○ | Technology ●●○○○ |
TALENTS (primary+2*10 freebie points) | SKILLS (secondary) | KNOWLEDGES (tetriary+2*5 freebie points) | |
| Animal Ken ●○○○○ | Academics ●●○○○ | |
Athletics ○○○○○ | Crafts ●○○○○ | Computer ○○○○○ | |
Awareness ●●●●● | Drive ●○○○○ | Finance ●●○○○ | |
Brawl ○○○○○ | Etiquette ●○○○○ | Investigation ○○○○○ | |
| Firearms ●●○○○ | Law ●●○○○ | |
Expression ●●○○○ | Larceny ●○○○○ | Medicine ○○○○○ | |
Intimidation ●●○○○ | Melee ○○○○○ | Occult ●●○○○ | |
Leadership ○○○○○ | Performance ●○○○○ | Politics ●●○○○ | |
Streetwise ●●●●● | Stealth ○○○○○ | Science ○○○○○ | |
Subterfuge ●○○○○ | Survival ●○○○○ | Technology ○○○○○ |
category | Emanation Arcana | Spirit |
attack | 15 attack dice, 11 lethal damage dice, melee only (doesn't have native ranged option) | 10 attack dice, 10 lethal (or aggravated at Storyteller's decision) damage dice, non-magical armor is ignored Native blast ability (see spirit charms section) |
Soak | 10, soaks bashing and lethal damage at DC 6 (5 for stone weapons), aggravated at DC 7 (6 for stone weapons) | 10 + 10 bashing and lethal soak for 2 essence motes (or up to 10 agg. soak for 2 + dice amount motes). Non-magical damage is completely ignored unless the spirit is materialized (normal mortals can't touch it) |
Willpower | 10 dots, acts as an energy pool for Hedge Magic | 10 dots |
Health levels | 0/0//-1//-2//-3//-4//-5//Inc | 30 motes of Essence, which is also an energy pool to use spirit charms |
dice adders | + 5 dice to anything done in pursuit of a set goal for 1 mote per hour | |
DC adjusters | +3 DC to all enemy actions against the Spirit -2 DC for the purposes of protecting Chicago -2 DC when they're trying to make an impression that's in accord with their station as god of Chicago | +3 DC to all enemy actions against the Spirit, unless aura is suppressed -2 DC for trying to spot potential trouble -2 DC for the purposes of protecting Chicago |
Magic | Is capable of learning path magic | Has access to spirit charms, I would argue that Exigent of Cities charms from ExvsWoD book should also be open to them |
Special features | Normally exists in NeverNever, manifests for a scene for 1 WP anywhere within 100 yards from their keystone. If the keystone is Chicago itself, that's city-wide teleportation If killed, reforms in 100 years, or faster if fed essence Streetwise if a favored ability Has oracular ability | Natural flight in NeverNever Ignores mundane weapons and matter, unless materialized Has minor helpful spirits following them around Can understand all languages spoken in Chicago, and make a roll to understand any other language Immortal, unless Chicago is destroyed |
Primordial is not a cognitohazard, and never has been. And is objectively a better communication tool than any other language.If it was about language, you'd stick to teaching them Spanish.
Or Mandarin. Or French.
Even Brass Courts Common, which is largely useless to her mundane life, at least isnt a cognitohazard.
Oh, just fuck off right here. Toddlers can't make choices that would damn them, if there are any sort of sane protections. That's not how mental development works at all.1) A Coin of one of the Thirty is in itself a pretty potent magical influence that you have to choose to pick up.
I'm not going to discuss the above because I'm going to sleep and I'm not going to change your opinion just like you're not going to change mine, because this is all very personal opinion.The actual point I was making there about your comment was the knowing Yog part despite them never advocating for that despite the fact we've had the charm for I don't know how long now
I was talking about teaching other people or the general mass of humanity not just the baby we've had the baby conversation extensively and to be frank I'm also not particularly interested in retreading it.I'm not going to discuss the above because I'm going to sleep and I'm not going to change your opinion just like you're not going to change mine, because this is all very personal opinion.
But this is not the first time that Yog has raised the possibility of teaching Amanada the Primordial Language (it is the second or third), and everyone has seen the exact same arguments for and against with the same people being the main arguers, uju and yog. I'm not interested in seeing that dance again.
That's not how that should work, she can't just flesh-craft on spirits like that.General notes: because Tiffany is participating, I am setting all physical and mental attributes to 10, while converting normal attribute building points into freebie points (3+5+3+3=14*5/2=35 freebie points). The argument for Tiffany being able to craft non-flesh flesh is her own body, which, I remind you, is a clay and metal golem magically transformed into flesh-like substance. This gives 50 total freebie points to start with (15+35=50).
Kinda sorta? I mean, my argument is that she could participate in the design, maybe? Yeah, to be honest, I know this is mostly BS. Otherwise Arcana build is really underpowered compared to Spirit build, and I don't feel it represents a major narrative-level working on making a city spirit/god that is capable of meaningfully affecting / defending the whole city. Like, I feel the power level should be something that is capable of fending off the Kakuri war party by itself.That's not how that should work, she can't just flesh-craft on spirits like that.
Herself being an exception, not a rule.
Spirit builds aren't particularly powerful.Kinda sorta? I mean, my argument is that she could participate in the design, maybe? Yeah, to be honest, I know this is mostly BS. Otherwise Arcana build is really underpowered compared to Spirit build, and I don't feel it represents a major narrative-level working on making a city spirit/god that is capable of meaningfully affecting / defending the whole city. Like, I feel the power level should be something that is capable of fending off the Kakuri war party by itself.
They have all three stats. That's very clear in the rules. Essence = wp + gnosis + rage rule leaves no other room for interpretation. They attack with willpower and roll damage (lethal or agg up to Storyteller's choise) with rage, that's direct quotes (see above). They flat out ignore mundane armor and attacks. Their health/energy pool goes up to 30 or 50, depending on the rules you are using. The thing I built would murderblend everyone in our circle save Molly herself, possibly at the same time. The thing rolls 15 + ability dice at -2 DC for everything to do with protecting Chicago at the cost of 1 essence per hour. It essentially has omni excellency.Spirit builds aren't particularly powerful.
Firstly, because they only roll one stat, WP, Gnosis or Rage. They have no skills at all, you have to judge which of their stats to apply case-by-case.
Also their power-fuel is also their health, so once things get dicey they go down fast.
Yes.They have all three stats. That's very clear in the rules. Essence = wp + gnosis + rage rule leaves no other room for interpretation. They attack with willpower and roll damage (lethal or agg up to Storyteller's choise) with rage, that's direct quotes (see above).
Only while dematerialized, which makes them harmless.
No it just rules 10 (or 15 with the boost), with no added ability.he thing rolls 15 + ability dice at -2 DC for everything to do with protecting Chicago at the cost of 1 essence per hour. It essentially has omni excellency.
I actually fully understand what you're talking about but it seems like it should be a hybrid situation because we make exalted style Gods Not world of Darkness gods or I guess Spirits in that instance.They have all three stats. That's very clear in the rules. Essence = wp + gnosis + rage rule leaves no other room for interpretation. They attack with willpower and roll damage (lethal or agg up to Storyteller's choise) with rage, that's direct quotes (see above). They flat out ignore mundane armor and attacks. Their health/energy pool goes up to 30 or 50, depending on the rules you are using. The thing I built would murderblend everyone in our circle save Molly herself, possibly at the same time. The thing rolls 15 + ability dice at -2 DC for everything to do with protecting Chicago at the cost of 1 essence per hour. It essentially has omni excellency.
In a combat situation, when protecting Chicago, it would roll 15 dice to attack at dc4, and then 15 dice to damage, also with -2 DC. the attack is either lethal or aggravated and completely ignores mundane armor.
To soak it would roll 15 dice at -2 DC, and by spending 2 essence, 25 dice.
Minor things.The Werewolves are absent so far in this continuity the closest thing we've seen to them are broken Seekers puppets and they're not the real thing I don't think we've encountered anything with a gnosis rating yet either.
I did not know that thank you. So broken Seeker had gnosis on top Mage spheres that's amazingly fucking crazy I love and hate that love it from a mechanical perspective hate it from a fuck why oh why give a nightmare that much power why God please no. The God-images were also Spirits okay then I've got nothing so I guess the idea that we make exalted gods and they have attributes and abilities on top of having essence they just had a lot more Essence and weaker charms and not as much ability to grow both in essence and abilities and attributes to the point where I think some of them were governed by each other but I'd have to look back in some second edition books to find out.Minor things.
The god-images that the Ra Statue manifests are mechanically spirits.
Also Broken Seeker has a Gnosis score since he's build as an overpowered Werewolf with some Wizard-magic thrown in.
Attributes and abilities normally only go in to 5, though. So it's at last as good as the best theoretical human at everything.Yes.
But a creature with 1-10 in Attributes and 1-10 skills can obviously get better than a Spirit with only WP, Gnosis and Rage, which are never added together.
As far as I can tell, spirits do not need to materialize to attack, and inflict spiritual damage.Only while dematerialized, which makes them harmless.
It's a good option to escape, or avoid fights, but not a relevant trick within combat.
As far as I can tell, that's wrong. You use wp/rage/gnosis in place of an attribute, and ability normally.No it just rules 10 (or 15 with the boost), with no added ability.
Also that Changeling-Merit is absolutely incredibly overpowered for 1 Point, if you apply it to something that broad.
You should definitely either not use it (because it's a Changeling Merit) or find a much narrower application, rather than use it as -2 DC for everything.
I think a possible, if absurd, solution, would be to work backwards mechanically. Take canon Exigent of Cities, and slap Phantasm(Emanation) trait on top of it as a special feature. Maybe buff essence pool too.I actually fully understand what you're talking about but it seems like it should be a hybrid situation because we make exalted style Gods Not world of Darkness gods or I guess Spirits in that instance.
The Werewolves are absent so far in this continuity the closest thing we've seen to them are broken Seekers puppets and they're not the real thing I don't think we've encountered anything with a gnosis rating yet either. So it seems like for a proper City God we would use an Emanation stat block with an Essence rating and charms like Essence plethora that regular gods in exalted have to make up the difference rather than use a rage + gnosis mix not to mention the fact that Gaia, the world of Darkness gaia is almost certainly not present and gnosis is her energy or very least completely symbolic of connection to her and no God would create would have that.
It also feels like if we made like a pure Spirit he would get banished from reality or would just be killable anyway despite being a pure spirit because it's like made in the style of the old gods and the White God's decree would make it so by being in the mortal world it could be killed anyway.