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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BronzeTongue said:
I don't recall where the debate ended on that one, but I'm pretty sure your interpretation of how the signature of that one works has been consistently shot down by DP. The free temporary clones are basically useless.

They get no equipment, no use of Molly's charms, and we have to repurchase any sorcery we want them to use as a mortal ability because they can't use it like we do.

We've had lengthy debates on the clone issue and have a variant cooking in our custom charm set. I don't think we should just take the baseline charm.
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I confirmed a bunch of things off-thread, and the Signature Charm versions dont get an Essence pool or shintai form.
No Excellencies for them. No activating (most) own charms.

They do get essentially everything else: base armor duplication, anima power, permanent Charms like Scar-Writ Body Shield, Ox-Bodies and Rage Reborn Aspects, scenelong charms and Shih powers activated by Molly Prime.
And a Willpower pool.

So at E4, thats 4x shadowclones with base abilities equivalent to normal Molly, with an agg sword. And who benefit from Shih powers, VLE and other scenelongs activated by Molly Prime. They wont be throwing around 20+ dice Excellency boosted attacks, but they will be solidly superhuman in capabilities to back up Shintai!Molly Prime.


Yes, it does mean that if we have activated Sandstrike Blast, all the Signature clones can use the free version for the scene. So eyebeams/swordbeams for everyone.

Yes, it does mean that if we activate Principle Invoking Onslaught, all the Signature clones can use it for the scene.
So if Molly Prime is humping a minigun or missile launcher, so is everyone else.

Yes, that means that if we buy By Agony Empowered, it will require Agg damage to kill one of those Signature clones.
Yes, it means that if we apply the ancient sorcery spell The Tree's Many Branches to Molly Prime, all the Signature clones get the benefit of its use for the scene as well.

I asked.


Its the single most significant expansion of Molly's capabilities there currently is on the table since the Hell charm.
For both its base form, and its Signature Charm version.
No real contest.
 
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uju32 said:
Personal opinion?
Splintered Gale Incarnation, 5 dots unfavored. Sandstrike Blast, 2 dots unfavored.
28XP.
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Not a fan of SGI, just dislike it.
While it gives some advantages, the use in combat appears to be minimal. Not to mention City Still Stands is a superior 'extra life' charm as it doesn't downgrade our Essence after each use.
Only disadvantage is that it only works once per story, which in this case means per month, but it automatically turns on Shintai for free, no roll.

Also, the question you quoted was about 'Sorcery,' not charms.
My charms question was earlier.

Personally, for Sorcery, Counterspell or Summoning would probably be best from a utility standpoint. Possibly Spirit Binding.
 
uju32 said:
Langtry is an old Senior Council-tier wizard who has been a target for older than Molly's father has been alive.
I would not be surprised if he has something like Kattrin's final spell in his back pocket to help soak unsoakable attacks.
Not a perfect, but something similar.

People of that tier likely have similar tricks to survive the kind of aggro they tend to pull.
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If Langtry has a trick then I would expect it to be a shield that we can't see though. He is a tricky wizard. He is going to counter our overpowering might with knowledge not power of his own.
uju32 said:
And we tripped the random encounter roll. Also as predicted.
And hence, Molly is about to be down 15% of her Essence pool even before getting to the Wicked City, because we deliberately chose to pick the approach path that would run us into conflict.
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There was no path without random encounters please don't complain just because you lost the vote. The real problem is Molly not just having an ally carry her in a bottle.
uju32 said:
Its the single most significant expansion of Molly's capabilities there currently is on the table since the Hell charm.
For both its base form, and its Signature Charm version.
No real contest.
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Shadow Spite Curse sig making all actions opposing us a -3 penalty blows it out of the water.

[X] Try to outrun them
 
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the DragonBard said:
Not a fan of SGI, just dislike it.
While it gives some advantages, the use in combat appears to be minimal. Not to mention City Still Stands is a superior 'extra life' charm as it doesn't downgrade our Essence after each use.
Only disadvantage is that it only works once per story, which in this case means per month, but it automatically turns on Shintai for free, no roll.

Also, the question you quoted was about 'Sorcery,' not charms.
My charms question was earlier.

Personally, for Sorcery, Counterspell or Summoning would probably be best from a utility standpoint. Possibly Spirit Binding.
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Like I said to BronzeTongue, the Signature charm version is absurdly combat-specific.

At E4, SGI gives you the equivalent of +4 extra actions as a Signature charm.
And each of those four additional (temporary) shadow clones benefits from your buffs, so they fly, carry an agg weapon, etc. A small army, or at least a war party, in your pocket when things are critical enough to pop shintai.

City Still Stands is not a replacement for SGI, and SGI is not a replacement for it.
They both have overlapping but different functions.


Oh. Sorcery?
Like BronzeTongue said, the Tree's Many Branches is probably the most valuable one to us. I'd probably prioritize Countermagic though, because Vegas. Or Emerald Spirit Binding. Maybe one of the Dragon's Blessings charms for Crafting.

If we could get the Hound of the Five Winds version rather than Bone Lion, I'd definitely look at that.
Or Dragon of Smoke and Fire.
We need someway to track people.
 
BronzeTongue said:
No one who remembers the exalts is going to be excited about their return. Especially people who are working from the perspective of gods, who had to deal with getting jerked by their nonsense.



I don't think it's as direct as that; ExWoD presumes they're mega dead. That's not necessarily the truth here, but I'm thinking it's more likely to fall on the "incoherent fragments" side of things than all the cycles of the wheel having no effect beyond the same basic effect as the original primordial war.

If it does have some relationship I think it qualifies as an energy field larger than a terrestrial's head. Maybe an infernal heretic could do it because it's directly in their themes and they're solar world titans, but I don't know if I'd bet on that.

The original context for this was building it to specifically empower mortals and sending it to live with the Shih. The monks probably wouldn't see it that way, but Dragons are notoriously proud and have a complex about humans because they were part of what sparked their displacement from positions of authority over creation.
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Oh. I'm not actually that up on Dresden verse deep lore so I wasn't aware of that… but honestly I'm not sure sending them to the monks is the best option anymore? It's not like we couldn't raise them, and Molly does have a whole bunch of once dragon kings floating around in her soul world…
 
fictionfan said:
If Langtry has a trick then I would expect it to be a shield that we can see though. He is a tricky wizard. He is going to counter our overpowering might with knowledge not power of his own.
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I would not.

Ebenezar is at the point where he ignores small arms fire when he went to war in Changes.
Langtry noped an onscreen surprise attack by an Outsider at point blank range in Turn Coat, and allegedly stopped an army of them with one ward in Dead Beat.

There's a place for trickiness, and a place for raw power.
You dont get to be Merlin without both the knowledge and the power to match.
fictionfan said:
There was no path without random encounters please stop bitching.
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That is not true.

Scarlet Path: Random encounters on the Path + random encounters in the City
Ebon Road: Random encounters on the road + random encounters in the City
Going directly into the Wicked City: Random encounters in the City

That was an argument that was presented.
At least some of the people who voted for the Ebon Road did it explicitly on the understanding there was a significantly increased chance of plot hooks.

And please stop being rude. It doesnt help.
fictionfan said:
Shadow Spite Curse sig making all actions opposing us a -3 penalty blows it out of the water.
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4x Extra Actions that benefit from most of Molly's charms beats that all day every day.
Especially in a fight serious enough to pop Shintai and activate Signature Charms.
 
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uju32 said:
Going directly into the Wicked City: Random encounters in the City On a plane
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Added this bit you are purposely ignoring. The idea that we would have no random encounters on any route is silly. How is Molly supposed to hide her data trail of getting on a commercial plane? We don't have a private one.

You reply way too quickly. I had that post edited 30 seconds after posting.
 
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Been rereading… did anyone ever notice the weird submarine floating around near Cleveland or did we do something with it? Cause I can just *picture* the harbor patrol being so bloody confused when they found that thing I'd we left it
 
uju32 said:
I confirmed a bunch of things off-thread
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Some quotes as to what he said would be nice. This is a bit of information in regards to the charm that I don't recall being in thread. Also kind of odd that he would give you that info since we usually don't get many details on a charm without buying it first.
 
[X] uju32

@DragonParadox I was looking at the table for converting essence levels into other things (generations into vampires, gnosis into werewolves, etc.) and I'm thinking that Molly increased her level super fast, but the beings around her in the text never seem to give an indication that Her power levels are increased or different from the beginning. So I wanted to know what happened in this matter? Or will you make others comment only when she reaches the level of a Methuselah (essence 5)?
 
If we just vote to run Lydia's golems are probably getting fucked over. Max human speed likely isn't enough.

[X] Try to outrun them
[X] Mind-Hand Manipulation to carry Lash + Lydia + Lydia's Hands
 
firefrog600 said:
I mean I don't think it'd do the same thing in the future so kinda still one use.
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We have posts from DP saying we get to keep it without that kind of thing.
uju32 said:
I confirmed a bunch of things off-thread, and the Signature Charm versions dont get an Essence pool or shintai form.
No Excellencies for them. No activating (most) own charms.

They do get essentially everything else: base armor duplication, anima power, permanent Charms like Scar-Writ Body Shield, Ox-Bodies and Rage Reborn Aspects, scenelong charms and Shih powers activated by Molly Prime.
And a Willpower pool.

So at E4, thats 4x shadowclones with base abilities equivalent to normal Molly, with an agg sword. And who benefit from Shih powers, VLE and other scenelongs activated by Molly Prime. They wont be throwing around 20+ dice Excellency boosted attacks, but they will be solidly superhuman in capabilities to back up Shintai!Molly Prime.


Yes, it does mean that if we have activated Sandstrike Blast, all the Signature clones can use the free version for the scene. So eyebeams/swordbeams for everyone.

Yes, it does mean that if we activate Principle Invoking Onslaught, all the Signature clones can use it for the scene.
So if Molly Prime is humping a minigun or missile launcher, so is everyone else.

Yes, that means that if we buy By Agony Empowered, it will require Agg damage to kill one of those Signature clones.
Yes, it means that if we apply the ancient sorcery spell The Tree's Many Branches to Molly Prime, all the Signature clones get the benefit of its use for the scene as well.

I asked.


Its the single most significant expansion of Molly's capabilities there currently is on the table since the Hell charm.
For both its base form, and its Signature Charm version.
No real contest.
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That's pretty significantly different from the original rulings. Makes it better, but I'm not sure it's worth it as a signature choice.
 
fictionfan said:
Added this bit you are purposely ignoring. The idea that we would have no random encounters on any route is silly. How is Molly supposed to hide her data trail of getting on a commercial plane? We don't have a private one.

You reply way too quickly. I had that post edited 30 seconds after posting.
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What data trail?

She wasnt going on a commercial plane. Why would she? A private jet rental in the US is $2000-$14,000 dollars per hour in 2024 prices, depending on the size of the jet. $10-20k would get her party most places in North America from Chicago. If she was renting one in Thailand, say, it would be cheaper. And it puts fewer people at risk.

She even had existing connects in that Cloud Butterfly from Chinatown who flies private planes.

I dont like to re-legislate previous votes. I think its poisonous to a quest's general tenor.
But I dont think its unreasonable to point out these were issues pointed out back then as predictable consequences of this course of action if we went through with it.
BoredMan said:
Some quotes as to what he said would be nice. This is a bit of information in regards to the charm that I don't recall being in thread. Also kind of odd that he would give you that info since we usually don't get many details on a charm without buying it first.
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I'll ask when they are awake before sharing any quotes.
Only seems polite.
 
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Azais said:
[X] uju32

@DragonParadox I was looking at the table for converting essence levels into other things (generations into vampires, gnosis into werewolves, etc.) and I'm thinking that Molly increased her level super fast, but the beings around her in the text never seem to give an indication that Her power levels are increased or different from the beginning. So I wanted to know what happened in this matter? Or will you make others comment only when she reaches the level of a Methuselah (essence 5)?
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A lot of supernaturals havent seen her that many times.
I mean, other than Brother Devisimar, Harry, Lydia, Lash, and maybe the people of Sanctuary, the only people with magic who get regular enough close looks at Molly to tell that she's growing are Potter and the members of Cauldron.

Maeve has met her three or four times I think. Mab twice. Titania twice. Lily a couple times. Odin once. Arthur Langtry once.
Of all of them, only Mab met Molly back when she was Essence 2. Everyone else ran into her at Essence 3. A lot of people are going to assume that she has been keeping stuff in reserve.

And that has become even more difficult to tell about her now that she has Black Mirror Incarnation to actively hide her magic when she's not flaring anima.


Im pretty sure the Merlin will be able to tell that Molly has grown stronger if he gets a look at her without BMI
So will Morgan.
But we havent met them since the first time.
 
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The City Still Stands is an extra life that will save Molly from getting nuked, but if someone assembled a kill team of Drakul, Ethniu, and a Dragon, SGI will save Molly by taking her out of that situation entirely. Heck, if someone just threw two nukes at Molly she'll go down; SGI is great because it's a literal Get Out of Jail Free Card, while the City Still Stands is for endurance battles and surviving surprise attacks.
 
fictionfan said:
Actually no. If Shantai loses all health levels it just forces Molly out of it with 4 unsoakable damage. So 2 nukes would not be enough.

Molly with The City Still Stands has many health bars.
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The point is that Splintered Gale Incarnation includes a very useful escape mechanism to get Molly out of any ambush planned for her, while the alternative is staying put and killing everybody who came to get some. It's always best to not let your enemy dictate the battlefield, and ceding initiative by having no option but to fight where they plan is never wise. This way any one planning to kill Molly will have to plan around a Charm that specifically whisks her soul away to safety if she's ever killed.
 
TheGrape said:
The point is that Splintered Gale Incarnation includes a very useful escape mechanism to get Molly out of any ambush planned for her, while the alternative is staying put and killing everybody who came to get some. It's always best to not let your enemy dictate the battlefield, and ceding initiative by having no option but to fight where they plan is never wise. This way any one planning to kill Molly will have to plan around a Charm that specifically whisks her soul away to safety if she's ever killed.
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I mean we have a bunch of ways to just run away if we want to. So unless they can just kill us outright we don't really have to choose to stay in any fight off the top of my head an environment would have to be completely dry and developed enough that there's no access to the water table a couple dozen feet down below the ground (RVD, TTC) have to not be enclosed as to entrap us in a situation where it's considerably better to fight than it is to run (CCC) and not be out in open air when we can fly at mach speed (WBS). It also needs to not have any body of water anywhere nearby whether that be piping or otherwise otherwise we can just find a water faucet and Escape (RVD). They also have to never ever separate because we have a perfect transformation charm even if you don't know the code words or the security as long as we can transform into one of them long enough to find an exit we get away (BMI)

If the area is out in the open at all we can literally fly straight up as so everyone would need to be capable of mach speed speed flight or carrying weapons that can fire over distances greater than 500, 1000, 3,000 m.

It is really difficult for me to see how there can be a situation where the City Still Stands fails where Splintered Gale Incarnation would succeed because at that point they're accounting for literally everything and considering the vast majority of Immortals in setting get away via that method maybe they add it to the preparations anyway.

In the end having both would be better but I'm struggling to see how either one is actually better than the other except City Still Stands doesn't strip away in essence point when it activates in this particular manner.
 
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Degorium said:
I mean we have a bunch of ways to just run away if we want to. So unless they can just kill us outright we don't really have to choose to stay in any fight off the top of my head an environment would have to be completely dry and developed enough that there's no access to the water table a couple dozen feet down below the ground (RVD, TTC) have to not be enclosed as to entrap us in a situation where it's considerably better to fight than it is to run (CCC) and not be out in open air when we can fly at mach speed (WBS). It also needs to not have any body of water anywhere nearby whether that be piping or otherwise otherwise we can just find a water faucet and Escape (RVD). They also have to never ever separate because we have a perfect transformation charm even if you don't know the code words or the security as long as we can transform into one of them long enough to find an exit we get away (BMI)

If the area is out in the open at all we can literally fly straight up as so everyone would need to be capable of mach speed speed flight or carrying weapons that can fire over distances greater than 500, 1000, 3,000 m.

It is really difficult for me to see how there can be a situation where the City Still Stands fails where Splintered Gale Incarnation would succeed because at that point they're accounting for literally everything and considering the vast majority of Immortals in setting get away via that method maybe they add it to the preparations anyway.

In the end having both would be better but I'm struggling to see how either one is actually better than the other except City Still Stands doesn't strip away in essence point when it activates in this particular manner.
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Well Splintered Gale Incarnation is also something that we would be using constantly well The City Still Stands is something that we hope that we never use.

Also the most likely reason for Molly to be unable to run away from somewhere is that she has people she likes with her. Which makes it rather unfortunate that we have so many good friends who insist in following our lead into hell itself.
 
Sesparra said:
Oh. I'm not actually that up on Dresden verse deep lore so I wasn't aware of that… but honestly I'm not sure sending them to the monks is the best option anymore? It's not like we couldn't raise them, and Molly does have a whole bunch of once dragon kings floating around in her soul world…
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The point of the build was to empower them, but yeah we could do something else.
TheGrape said:
The City Still Stands is an extra life that will save Molly from getting nuked, but if someone assembled a kill team of Drakul, Ethniu, and a Dragon, SGI will save Molly by taking her out of that situation entirely. Heck, if someone just threw two nukes at Molly she'll go down; SGI is great because it's a literal Get Out of Jail Free Card, while the City Still Stands is for endurance battles and surviving surprise attacks.
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You don't even need half that force to take Molly down. Getting a big head will get us killed.

Micheal won because god tasked an Angel to aggressively balance the game. Molly is very powerful, but it doesn't trivialize who those people are.

I'm pretty confident that a Dragon capable of collapsing the dimension we live in given something firm to plant their feet on is plenty dangerous on their own. Drakul is crazy eldritch nonsense and Ethniu is as strong as she is blitheringly stupid.

Any one of those fights would be an ordeal, together is an execution.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Any one of those fights would be an ordeal, together is an execution.
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That's the point of SGI, to get Molly out on an unwinnable fight. The City Stands can make some unwinnable fights winnable, but there will always be unwinnable fights for Molly; she's not invincible, but SGI can help her survive a lot of otherwise bad ends.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The point of the build was to empower them, but yeah we could do something else.

You don't even need half that force to take Molly down. Getting a big head will get us killed.

Micheal won because god tasked an Angel to aggressively balance the game. Molly is very powerful, but it doesn't trivialize who those people are.

I'm pretty confident that a Dragon capable of collapsing the dimension we live in given something firm to plant their feet on is plenty dangerous on their own. Drakul is crazy eldritch nonsense and Ethniu is as strong as she is blitheringly stupid.

Any one of those fights would be an ordeal, together is an execution.
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I'm 100% sure that dp has nerfed Dragons and they can't still do that in quest same way the hoards of angels out there are unlikely to all be in the same weight class they were in canon of every single one being more powerful than Mab.
 
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