Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1)Anything thats going to bring in money will cost AP. Thats more or less a given.


2)The US govt does not do multi-billion dollar trade deals with private individuals.

Anything thats going to interest the various elements of the US govt sufficiently to hand over billions of dollars for exclusivity will involve thousands of people of oversight and review, and be sufficiently destabilizing that we will be dealing with the aftermath for the rest of this quest.

And likely in ways that makes it more difficult to work with people outside the US, where the vast bulk of humanity is from.
Significant constituencies in India, China and South America do not regard US political policy with fondness, after all.


3)The attention would be...adverse.



The top expert that Molly had available to deal with a defect in the weapon shipment to the White Council only had Fortune 4.
If that was the top expert available to the head of state of Sanctuary, I suspect there arent many Tier 5/5+ experts anywhere in the population. Just like there are no wizards.

You're looking at a lot more cooperative work from a lot of mid-rankers than a handful of top experts.
Broad talents, not tall talents.
===

Like I said, Sanctuary's conditions are weird.
I have serious doubts about the development path of radar, in a domain whose natural conditions involve exceedingly powerful magnetic fields, huge metal outcroppings, and aerosolized metal blizzards. I quote:
To venture into this hellscape in an attempt to escape the kingdom of your heart without permission and a guide, is to face an almost guaranteed demise, for even if one was to clad themselves into a space-worthy thermally sealed suit, they would still be fleeced to the bone by a never-ending blizzard of ferrous snow. Electrically charged iron and nickel dust cyclone with the wind speeds far exceeding a hundred meters per second obscures the borders of your realm from outside observation to eye and any electronic equipment. Only those wise in the ways of your soul can dare hope to navigate this terrain.

And yet, not every place within your self is so inhospitable. For even as the iron cyclone rages at the border of the world, a no less ferocious anticyclone expands from its center. Where they meet, in a strip of land 496 kilometers wide, their clash in the skies is both ferocious and life giving. In that narrow space, the titanic magnetic fields generated by them cancel each other, and their particles' collisions generate heat enough that eternal ring of lightning plasma is raging in the skies, unable to escape its natural confinement. The temperature is high enough that liquid water can flow in this equator. The light is soft and bright enough that photosynthesis is effective. And life, or at least life recognizable by Earthborn eyes at first glance, strives there, desperate to occupy this narrow ring of space allowed to it. Dense and ever shifting forests rustle in the ever-blowing winds, their deep blue crowns endlessly shrugging metal dust from themselves. Their trunks stretch ever further in hopes to catch the lightning and fill their underground capacitors with vital energy. Fast and dangerous beasts, iron hided and sharp toothed traverse metal coated land of ever shifting shadows below, seeking either fruit or prey, for life is short and dangerous in this world, and no source of nourishment is to be dismissed.

It is among these forests that civilization of your world exists. It is confined mostly into five great megacities sitting in five corners of a great pentacle, 5747 kilometers from the center of the world. Each city-state is positioned on top of a great pole of metal, large enough to generate its own magnetic field and prevent metal dust from passing into the city, and to serve as a source of free electricity for the city-state's industry. Only the tips of the great pillars protrude above ground, but they are still more than ten kilometers high, extending far enough into the skies that the air pressure at their tops is barely a half of what it is where they enter the ground, and akin to the one you are accustomed to. The size of each settlement is far larger than any that could be found on Earth. Each boasts the population equal to the largest nations of your birth world. They are connected to each other by a vast cavern system, partly natural, and long since expanded with intelligent intent, forming the beams of the pentagram, with great armored trains coursing through the tunnels.
This does not appear to be a radar-friendly environment to me, and is the sort of thing to incentivize alternative technological paths for sensing purposes.

Part of the issue with the two places being so radically different is that we cant automatically assume that shit built to work in one place will necessarily work in another.
:le shrug:



They werent casting drills.
They were alertness and responsiveness drills, to which he could respond with magic or just physically. I quote:
"I have no use for weakness, wizard." She shivered in a kind of slow, alien ecstasy. "Rest. Heal. Sleep. I shall most likely kill you on the morrow."
"You? A Princess Bride quote?" I croaked.
"What is that?" she asked.
Then she was gone. Just gone.
And that was day one of my physical therapy.

* * *

I could describe the next few weeks in detail, but as bad as they were, they did have a certain routine to them. Besides, in my head, they're a music video montage set to the Foo Fighters' "Walk."
I would wake in the morning and find Sarissa waiting for me, keeping a polite and professional distance between us. She would help me take care of the needs of my weakened body, which was rarely dignified, but she never spoke about herself. At some point after that, Mab would try to kill me in increasingly unexpected and inventive ways.
In the video in my head, there's a shot of me eating my own meal again—until, just as I finish, the giant bed bursts into flames. I awkwardly flop out of it and crawl away before I roast. Then, obviously the next day, Sarissa is helping me walk to the bathroom and back. Just as I relax back into bed, a poisonous serpent, a freaking Indian cobra, falls from the bed's canopy onto my shoulders. I scream like a girl and throw it on the floor. The next day, I'm fumbling my way into new clothes with Sarissa's help—until a small swarm of stinging ants comes boiling out of them onto my flesh, and I have to literally rip the clothes off of me.
It goes on like that. Sarissa and me on waist-high parallel bars, me struggling to remember how to keep my balance, interrupted by a tidal flood of red-eyed rats that forces us to hop up onto the bars before our feet get eaten off. Sarissa spotting me on a bench press, and then Mab bringing a great big old fireman's ax whistling down at my head at the end of my third set so that I have to block with the stupid straight bar. Me slogging my exhausted way into a hot shower, only to have the door slam shut and the thing start to fill with water. Into which freaking piranha begin to plop.
On and on. Seventy-seven days. Seventy-seven attempted murders. Use your imagination. Mab sure as hell did. There was even a ticking crocodile.
She trained his senses and his responses. And his paranoia.
Not his casting.



Wizards have sensory feedback with life and magic, and the patterns of nature.
As far as Im aware, we've never seen a wizard experience sensory feedback from something technological in the setting.
We see Dresden sense lightning and storm patterns, but not electricity in the wires, for example.




My point is that Molly wasnt recruited for her skill at veils or illusions.
Lea displayed an interest in Molly before she even developed any magic; she spoke of her to Michael back in Grave Peril, iirc.



I am.
Im also pointing out that they have/should have sufficient alternative sources of information for something this public that it does not benefit the White Council in any way to be less than forthcoming about this.

Especially since Dead Beat was only 18 months or so away, and the Council is, according to Ebenezar McCoy in Proven Guilty, still very reliant on the efforts and goodwill of allies and friends picking up the slack for it in the aftermath of the Council's major military losses of that time.

===
Im aware of what the history of the United States with regards to its Native American citizens has been.
At least as bad as its been with its African-American citizens.

However, we know that whoever wrote the basic field manual for Daedalus appeared to be better informed about Native American magical phenomena than just normal human magic.
And that it is explicit for this quest that the Feds intervened decisively in the lesser skinwalker-Navajo war:
Such were the gifts of the Great One Bobby explained in the dreamy infatuated voice of one wholly enthralled to the allure of a vampire, to break man's works and man's minds, to make hearts race with terror and then rip them from bleeding hearts. Unsurprisingly perhaps the Broken Arrows have a special loathing for the Navajo though it is taboo for them to hunt them without a direct command from their foul 'god'. All that had changed when 'that whelp Ralph' killed and devoured the heart of a medicine man. There had been open war for almost a full month kept from the outside as much by the sheer remoteness of the desert before somehow the feds had gotten involved and driven the cannibals put into what they called 'the bone wood' and which you recognize at once as a particularly macabre layer of the Nevernever. There the survivors had honed their craft, grown their power, feasting on the essence of unfortunate spirits driven into that tainted place...
There arent many magically-knowledgeable US Federal organizations around.
And based on their performance in Chicago, that aint Daedalus; if they cant handle anti-muggle wards, lesser skinwalkers would have eaten them alive. Possibly literally.




I dont know if we can assume modern human legal precedent has any bearing on supernatural common law.
Human wizards were almost certainly involved in the creation of the Archive, for example, but you dont see them trying to give her orders. :V


The White Council formally claims a lot of things, not all of them enforcible.
Prior to the war breaking out, the Reds had mortal or part-mortal sorcerers in their employ. So, apparently did some of the Whites. The Council never formally pressed the issue.

When the Sin-Eater chose the Dragon as its representative in 1905, whatever agreements or treaties were made did not give them veto power either.

Besides.
Most Native American magical practitioners appear to be shamans, and the shamanic magical traditions appear to meld religion and magic; generally the Council appears to prefer not to go out of its way to tussle with gods and the servants of gods.


Good point about the DBs.
Porter did say he'd met an Exalt once(or at least someone who felt like Molly) a long time ago.
Something we might want to follow up on in the future.
That's immensely disappointing that our top expert has 4 dots in something some of these characters are literally thousands of years old. Fuck Lara had a 6 dot skill in appearance she's only a couple hundred years old. There are 4000+ year old practitioners of some kinds in our hell. Not debating you just immensely disappointed in our hell in that aspect. Like I didn't expect a lot I wanted like twenty people with over 5 dots in various skills when the population is in the billions and some people are legit older than 4000 years old that would of been nice.

This doesn't even take into account our hell explicitly has a culture where excellence is highly valued as they believed it would determine them actually existing. There should be some motherfuckers who broke their limits.
 
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That's immensely disappointing that our top expert has 4 dots in something some of these characters are literally thousands of years old. Fuck Lara had a 6 dot skill in appearance she's only a couple hundred years old. There are 4000+ year old practitioners of some kinds in our hell.
I'm sure people with 6 dots do exist there. It's an entire planet.
 
She trained his senses and his responses. And his paranoia.
Not his casting
She didn't try stealth jets, so it's at best a tangent to what we're talking about.


Wizards have sensory feedback with life and magic, and the patterns of nature.
As far as Im aware, we've never seen a wizard experience sensory feedback from something technological in the setting.
We see Dresden sense lightning and storm patterns, but not electricity in the wires, for example
This is silly in two ways. Firstly; wizards see a clearer picture of the world as it is. Tech is part of that since it exists in creation, they just don't do it because they can't make much use of it. Secondly, the guys who invented radar didn't invent radio waves when they did it any more than the ones who created the first cameras came up with visible light.

When Dresden makes himself invisible a camera watching from outside of tech bane range isn't going to somehow see through it. That is the same as this in every way that matters.


My point is that Molly wasnt recruited for her skill at veils or illusions.
Lea displayed an interest in Molly before she even developed any magic; she spoke of her to Michael back in Grave Peril, iirc
Leah also showed interest in Murphy, it's not indicative of much. Especially since her senses could easily be good enough to pick up potential for talent.


I am.
Im also pointing out that they have/should have sufficient alternative sources of information for something this public that it does not benefit the White Council in any way to be less than forthcoming about this.
Then why doesn't literally everyone know this?

The council wouldn't advertise its own name if it wasn't a necessary part of doing business, and in particular they don't like to spread things around about stable situations since it could tempt people to poke them.


There arent many magically-knowledgeable US Federal organizations around.
And based on their performance in Chicago, that aint Daedalus; if they cant handle anti-muggle wards, lesser skinwalkers would have eaten them alive. Possibly literally.
It's a lot harder to ignore skin walkers than what the sin eater does to people. I just don't buy that anyone from a native background with the power and age we're talking about here would look at a situation wherein keeping an unpleasant deal in play is necessary and think to involve the federal government in it.


I dont know if we can assume modern human legal precedent has any bearing on supernatural common law.
Human wizards were almost certainly involved in the creation of the Archive, for example, but you dont see them trying to give her orders. :V


The White Council formally claims a lot of things, not all of them enforcible.
Prior to the war breaking out, the Reds had mortal or part-mortal sorcerers in their employ. So, apparently did some of the Whites. The Council never formally pressed the issue
The white council has only ever pressed on mortal magic outside of the auspices of another power, and then only until the mage starts actually being a problem.

It's worth considering the implications of the fact that the white council is a global monopoly on free mortal magic. Butcher is fairly specific on this; there isn't another game in town for full wizards. I don't think Butcher himself really put too much thought into that end of things, but there's no way that happened without someone actively choking their competitors out. Successfully asserting your primacy in an area since the Roman Republic is plenty of basis for a claim like that even if it isn't flawless in execution.

Like I said, Sanctuary's conditions are weird.
I have serious doubts about the development path of radar, in a domain whose natural conditions involve exceedingly powerful magnetic fields, huge metal outcroppings, and aerosolized metal blizzards. I quote:
Please stop twisting every bit of information we get about the FCF into a broader argument nerfing it. One piece of tech that might not function depending on exactly what it does isn't an indication that everything works that way.

It's already complicated to use it without exploding something important, this nonsense is wholly unnecessary.

Edit: errors
 
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Negotiating with the LoC is not negotiating with the entire US govt.
Especially when you are talking about getting your hands on sums that are more than the GDP of small countries.

Negotiating with LoC is part of negotiating with larger US government and the first step in the process.
Does not follow.
Establishing formal relationships with mortal governments is a whole different kettle of fish from establishing relationships with their spookyside arms.

And when presenting yourself as an independent faction, it pays not to look like some other faction is bankrolling you.

When did I say anything about "some other factions bankrolling [us]"?
No they do not. They never have. There is no such thing as off the books when you're talking about 9 and 10-figure sums.

And the fact that you are even making that suggestion means that you arent internalizing how much money you are talking about, or exactly how much oversight is involved in moving US federal moneys around. Or exactly how noticeable that amount of money is in the financial system.
1) Going with this wiki article, we have at least CDW, Sierra Nevada Corporation, Cerberus Capital Management, Atlantic Diving Supply, and probably others (if I was less strict with criteria) businesses that started and mostly remain privately owned by small amount of people
2) We are not a private citizen. We are a head of a sovereign state
3) Why would large scale deals be off the books? I am fully aiming at establishing legal presence. I'll point out that in-story at least Tiffany thinks that this is a reasonable and expected course of action for Molly to take, and she's not stupid.

No body is going to give a private individual that much money without a truly mindbogglingly valuable offer.

And at that point, if its something valuable enough that a government will intervene for exclusivity instead of letting it go to the open market, governments and government officials start thinking in terms of eminent domaining whatever the item is, and daring you to go to court over it. Or passing windfall tax laws.
Why do you think we would be assumed to be a private individual?
 
Negotiating with LoC is part of negotiating with larger US government and the first step in the process.

When did I say anything about "some other factions bankrolling [us]"?

1) Going with this wiki article, we have at least CDW, Sierra Nevada Corporation, Cerberus Capital Management, Atlantic Diving Supply, and probably others (if I was less strict with criteria) businesses that started and mostly remain privately owned by small amount of people
2) We are not a private citizen. We are a head of a sovereign state
3) Why would large scale deals be off the books? I am fully aiming at establishing legal presence. I'll point out that in-story at least Tiffany thinks that this is a reasonable and expected course of action for Molly to take, and she's not stupid.


Why do you think we would be assumed to be a private individual?

Barring something like a portal to the inside of our soul we could take congresspeople/state department officials through to verify our claims, our state is not something that exists on earth and we'd have to ferry people in and out. For the government as a whole to formally recognize the Brass Courts would presumably require a masqueradeless world. Plus there's the weirdness of the nation existing inside a person/living dimensional portal because generally citizens of a nation can move by boat or car or airplane without dependency on a single person.

New laws would probably have to be written for our case if we wanted formal diplomatic recognition by the govt as a whole. Otherwise we'll get a lot of weird looks when we claim to be a sovereign nation in and of ourselves.
 
That's immensely disappointing that our top expert has 4 dots in something some of these characters are literally thousands of years old. Fuck Lara had a 6 dot skill in appearance she's only a couple hundred years old. There are 4000+ year old practitioners of some kinds in our hell. Not debating you just immensely disappointed in our hell in that aspect. Like I didn't expect a lot I wanted like twenty people with over 5 dots in various skills when the population is in the billions and some people are legit older than 4000 years old that would of been nice.

This doesn't even take into account our hell explicitly has a culture where excellence is highly valued as they believed it would determine them actually existing. There should be some motherfuckers who broke their limits.
Our people have some skills in the 5 or even 6.

It's just Sorcery that's extremely rare to go to the high dots.

And generally, keep in mind that mostly our people still have human-ish brains and they forget things, their skills rust when not in regular use.


To take an example, one of the Exarchs we met, Enlightened Keeper of the Equal Ledger, the one from the City of Journeys, has been a caravan-driver once upon a time, then a businessman sending out the caravans, now a politician.
He used to have Drive and Survival at 5 during his best times in that and a bit more skill in Sorcery than he has now too, but for the last few centuries he needed different skills so now those things have decayed down to more normal areas and instead he has very good social skills and 5 in Finance and Law.
 
Barring something like a portal to the inside of our soul we could take congresspeople/state department officials through to verify our claims, our state is not something that exists on earth and we'd have to ferry people in and out. For the government as a whole to formally recognize the Brass Courts would presumably require a masqueradeless world. Plus there's the weirdness of the nation existing inside a person/living dimensional portal because generally citizens of a nation can move by boat or car or airplane without dependency on a single person.

New laws would probably have to be written for our case if we wanted formal diplomatic recognition by the govt as a whole. Otherwise we'll get a lot of weird looks when we claim to be a sovereign nation in and of ourselves.
We don't map directly to a foreign state, but I am fairly sure we can be put into "foreign might tech corporation" mental slot relatively easily by politicians.

My point is, I think, that I believe we should interact with the world more, and let our kingdom interact with the world more in a positive manner.
 
Our people have some skills in the 5 or even 6.

It's just Sorcery that's extremely rare to go to the high dots.

And generally, keep in mind that mostly our people still have human-ish brains and they forget things, their skills rust when not in regular use.


To take an example, one of the Exarchs we met, Enlightened Keeper of the Equal Ledger, the one from the City of Journeys, has been a caravan-driver once upon a time, then a businessman sending out the caravans, now a politician.
He used to have Drive and Survival at 5 during his best times in that and a bit more skill in Sorcery than he has now too, but for the last few centuries he needed different skills so now those things have decayed down to more normal areas and instead he has very good social skills and 5 in Finance and Law.
Hmm okay, that's better than I hoped. I still hope at least someone in our service has beyond 5 dots in sorcery otherwise it just makes our people seem comparatively pathetic. Even occasional freak freak mortals in more ancient times have gone beyond 5 dots in wod. I'm sure senior council members have beyond 5 dot skills. I know Nicodemus should just on the knowledge scale have a couple 6 dot skills even if he has almost no magic he was very very very skilled in the literal crafting of rituals. In a world where excellence is one of the highest virtues in our religion, there should be a handful of people with beyond 5 dot powers in magic. There've gotta be at least some people who have been practicing sorcery for 3000+ years in our hell right? Even on someone with minimum talent that would give absurd dots. Heck there should be really talented individuals with 5 dots in skills in their first century if they just really exceptional much less those past thousands of years.
 
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Just something I thought of about the earlier ritual update.

We know how we managed it, the combination of Tiffany's intelligence buffing of everyone and Exalted Excellence all building on the knowledge granted by the Crown and a ritual site built with Tool Transcending Constructs.

Sandra doesn't. Who does she think is in town that's capable of working together to produce such a feat of ritual magic? It's not something that someone without inside knowledge would reasonably expect Molly's group to pull off, as if relies on novel capabilities.

Who could Sandra reasonably think we've pulled into assist us to pull off a ritual of this magnitude.

The other takeaway I have is that between them the party could do some very good strategic work with teams of Fortune and Mana Manipulation Path sorcerers from the FFC to supercharge strategic rituals of our own. We'd need more prep time than we have now, but anchoring an effect of good luck to the virtuous and bad luck to the vile to Chicago's leylines could have a big impact over time.
 
@DragonParadox are intelligence buffs still in effect? I remember that when Tiffany's powers were just introduced you were undecided on how lore of flesh would work - either a scene long buff, or a near permanent buff, but only for one characteristic as a time. How long do the buffa work now? Because we might want to apply combat oriented ones (dexterity probably) before the main event.

Just something I thought of about the earlier ritual update.

We know how we managed it, the combination of Tiffany's intelligence buffing of everyone and Exalted Excellence all building on the knowledge granted by the Crown and a ritual site built with Tool Transcending Constructs.

Sandra doesn't. Who does she think is in town that's capable of working together to produce such a feat of ritual magic? It's not something that someone without inside knowledge would reasonably expect Molly's group to pull off, as if relies on novel capabilities.

Who could Sandra reasonably think we've pulled into assist us to pull off a ritual of this magnitude.

The other takeaway I have is that between them the party could do some very good strategic work with teams of Fortune and Mana Manipulation Path sorcerers from the FFC to supercharge strategic rituals of our own. We'd need more prep time than we have now, but anchoring an effect of good luck to the virtuous and bad luck to the vile to Chicago's leylines could have a big impact over time.
Depending on what Sandra knows about exalts, she might just think that we specced into magic. Of course, magic specced celestial exalt is a nightmare of a very special kind all by themselves...

Still, yeah, this is an insightful observation.
 
Yeah the average soul is immortal there must be hundreds of millions minimum older than Lara raith. Even if most decided to stop living at 500 or something. There should absurd amounts of people in the thousands of years who've just practiced their crafts.
As I understand it?
Its need and drive and talent that determines attributes and skills.
Age is a factor, but not the key determinant.


She didn't try stealth jets, so it's at best a tangent to what we're talking about.
The point is that she spent time honing his senses.
And someone who spent several months learning to detect and anticipate attacks from Mab-chosen concealment is more qualified than most to evaluate the quality and comprehensiveness of the veils of other people.

You dont have to be a master vintner to be a sommelier, though it definitely helps.


This is silly in two ways. Firstly; wizards see a clearer pictu of the world as it is. Tech is part of that since it exists in creation, they just don't do it because they can't make much use of it. Secondly, the guys who invented radar didn't invent radio waves when they did it any more than the ones who created the first cameras came up with visible light.

When Dresden makes himself invisible a camera watching from outside of tech bane range isn't going to somehow see through it. That is the same as this in every way that matters.
Harry can reach out and feel the emotions of masses of people, or detect the presence of people under a veil. He can feel the aura of power around a powerful practitioner, or the impending power of a ritual or a magical spell.

He doesnt trace the flow of electricity in his own house, or the small explosions in an internal combustion engine.
He doesnt detect the emissions of a cop's radar gun, or the radars increasingly prevalent in modern cars, or the radiowaves of AM transmissions in the air.

They are not at all equivalent.


Leah also showed interest in Murphy, it's not indicative of much. Especially since her senses could easily be good enough to pick up potential for talent.
I do not recall Lea ever showing interest in Murphy; indeed, I think the first time they ever met was in Changes. Citation?
I would appreciate it if you can recall where you saw it.


Then why doesn't literally everyone know this?
The council wouldn't advertise its own name if it wasn't a necessary part of doing business, and in particular they don't like to spread things around about stable situations since it could tempt people to poke them.
What makes you think they dont know?

Because they dont talk casually about it to random mortals and young supernaturals, in a setting where talking about magical entities can draw their attention, for good or for ill? Remember Bob's absolute refusal to go anywhere near even talking about the topic of the Shroud of Turin in Death Masks as being outside his jurisdiction?


The Sin-Eater has been here more than five thousand years, back into pre-history. The Mantle of its representative has existed for that long, and been passed down from wielder to wielder.

It recruiting the Dragon to build Las Vegas, and then getting into a spirited contract renegotiation with him that literally tore up the then Air Force Gunnery Range outside Las Vegas so badly that it was used as a nuclear testing ground?
All happened in the 20th century.

Citation:
A Brief History of Sin
Let's get the big one out of the way first: there's a reason we call this place Sin City. It's not just a marketing ploy. The city literally feeds on the energy of corruption, a psychic vampire miles and miles across. Every bad thing everyone does—from the smallest of white lies to the most heinous and dehumanizing of crimes— works in some small part to sate its hunger.

As bad as that sounds, it's actually the lesser of evils. Without that corruptive energy, Vegas would no longer be able to serve its actual purpose, sealing away something even worse underneath Nevada, stirring in the depths.

I don't know exactly what that is. It could be an entity, or simply a point of contact with some horrible Beyond. I do know that the last time it broke through, it scarred Death Valley into the very crust of the Earth. The gate, for lack of a better term, was sealed between its world and ours sometime in pre-history, perhaps by powerful shamans in the Anasazi or their ancestors.

I only know that, whoever it was, they also summoned something to deal with the problem and keep the seal intact, a demon in every sense of the word. It demanded a high price for its service—the continual direction of corruptive power right into its black heart for eternity. There has always been one person, the demon's contact with the mortal world, responsible for making sure this happens.

On March 17, 1905, the demon passed this mantle to a noble of the Red Court, who afterward answered only to "the Dragon."
The Dragon proved equal to the challenge, using the Court's finances and guiding the right people to build Las Vegas up. It started with Block 16 and the "dude ranches," and eventually became the sprawling thing you now know, with the Red Court or their proxies propping up much of the financial might necessary to make it function.

It hasn't all been smooth sailing. Once the Dragon realized what he had gotten himself into, he tried to break free from the demon's grip, leading to all-out war. It's no coincidence that the United States government chose the Las Vegas Aerial Gunnery School as a nuclear test site. Those craters in the ground are the scars of their battle.

In the end, the Dragon lost.
The heady cost of his struggle forced him to diversify; soon, other supernatural beings came to answer the call of Vegas, seeing prime opportunities to be had. Vegas was new, an untapped source of energy, food, slaves, favors, debts, and bargains—the grease on the wheels of the empowered world.

The Dragon shaped them until they unwittingly fed the city, allowing each faction to pursue their interests to a point, but curbing anyone who threatened to curtail the city's growth—no people, no more sin. He had balanced the equation. The demon was satisfied.

Then someone killed the Dragon, along with the rest of his kind. I see a name—Harry Dresden, awash in sin and blood.
Mr. Dresden, if you're out there, you have very likely doomed this place.


It's a lot harder to ignore skin walkers than what the sin eater does to people. I just don't buy that anyone from a native background with the power and age we're talking about here would look at a situation wherein keeping an unpleasant deal in play is necessary and think to involve the federal government in it.
Thats like saying its easier to ignore an active volcano, or an active fault line, than a bunch of serial killers.

I can very much see some Native American magic-users having quiet conversations with one or two proven Library representatives to help keep an eye on things. Or even just to warn them off poking the area.
Especially after the Sin-Eater picked a Red Court noble as its latest representative in the 1900s.

===
RL history shows that despite everything the United States has systematically done to its minorities, that they still manage to command significant loyalties among its population.
Up to 70% of the male populations of some Native American tribes served in WW2.

Black American soldiers have fought and died in its wars even as they were being systematically oppressed at home, shit that continues into the modern day.


The white council has only ever pressed on mortal magic outside of the auspices of another power, and then only until the mage starts actually being a problem.

It's worth considering the implications of the fact that the white council is a global monopoly on free mortal magic
. Butcher is fairly specific on this; there isn't another game in town for full wizards. I don't think Butcher himself really put too much thought into that end of things, but there's no way that happened without someone actively choking their competitors out. Successfully asserting your primacy in an area since the Roman Republic is plenty of basis for a claim like that even if it isn't flawless in execution.
True. Key words: Free.

Shamans/medicine men are not free magic practitioners. Its explicitly characterized as a religious practice, and while Im not more than superficially familiar with Native American practice, especially as interpreted in the Dresdenverse, they do appear to bear some allegiance to spirits and divine pantheons.

Not all of them are, of course.
Listens to Wind, for example, is an example of someone who is adjacent but not in the practice; Shagnasty explicitly says he is not a holy man, and doesnt follow the Blessing Way.

===
As for the implications?
I genuinely dont think it would require all that much effort to watch rival organizations fail, coupled with inducements to recruit/merge with the bigger organizations.

You have to remember that the White Council's founding received a lot of subtle patronage to survive its early days.

Merlin was trained by Odin, for example(yes, that means that Odin is Harry's great-grandmaster/grandsensei several degrees removed). White Council HQ at the Hidden Halls of Edinburgh with its control of leyline nexuses and multiple Way conjunctons and its massively powerful wards that need a god to break used to be a Sidhe stronghold that Merlin "won" in a "bet".

The Blackstaff wielded by the Blackstaff used to be Mother Winter's walking stick, and I doubt that fell into their hands by accident, either.


Please stop twisting every bit of information we get about the FCF into a broader argument nerfing it. One piece of tech that might not function depending on exactly what it does isn't an indication that everything works that way.
It's already complicated to use it without exploding something important, this nonsense is wholly unnecessary.
Please stop accusing me of twisting information just because you find it inconvenient.
Its a quest; roleplaying is mandatory.


Its not nonsense to point out that environment and need shapes technology.
If Sanctuary had no wars, we would have no weapons technology. An environment where radar doesnt work very well is not going to have made major investments in spoofing said radars, or have radar-stealth armed drones on the shelf.

This is something whose implications weve already seen in some of our medical sciences and technologies, and when we were talking about options for Amanda Beckitt; the lack of accidental death in our environment and general cyberware compatibility affects what options we have for treating Earth people.



To give another example, due to the way Sanctuary's geography is described, AFAICR, with no seas or large open bodies of water, we have no people with experience in shipbuilding or operating a navy or amphibious operations, and should thus have no expectations for our minions operating on or underwater without a lot of remedial training.

Conversely, our techbase should have particular expertise with observational astronomy, high energy physics, funky material science and hazardous environment operations.
 
While they're in the FFC can't we just have magical healers work on them?

And that's assuming that none of them have the fomor powers, alchemical potions, or enchanted equipment thay gives them persistent regenerations which I'd assume would be high on the list for commandos to develop or be issued? For example; there's an alchemical potion that gives story long regeneration of a lethal or bashing health level every other turn. Sure, it's fine dot, but it's the rare high dot alchemy concoction worth making for mortals because it lasts so long once taken.

Lash also isn't the only one who can buff them. We've had enough time for teams of Fortune sorcerers be assembled ready to bless them before they're deployed.
 
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Who could Sandra reasonably think we've pulled into assist us to pull off a ritual of this magnitude.
Harry Dresden, obviously.

As of this point in time, Dresden has canonically
  • Disrupted Victor Sells' storm-powered death ritual in Storm Front
  • Disrupted Nicodemus' plague ritual in Death Masks
  • Disrupted at least one use of the Outsider entropy ritual, and sabotaged the last use of it by Madge Shelly in Blood Rites
  • Summoned and bound the Erl King, summoned Sue the necromantic T-Rex, and disrupted the Darkhallow in Dead Beat
  • Diverted/disrupted the final Fetch summoning ritual in Proven Guilty

Man has a reputation for fucking up other people's magic.
Anyone who has a list of the people involved is going to point fingers at the Starborn White Council wizard for that shit. I presume thats the reason why he, not Lydia or Lash, was the target of the gunman at the Wendy's.
 
Anyone who has a list of the people involved is going to point fingers at the Starborn White Council wizard for that shit. I presume thats the reason why he, not Lydia or Lash, was the target of the gunman at the Wendy's.

Or the gunman just saw a shot on a target and he took it, it is worth keeping in mind these people are thralls, their programing is not going to have them act with the full range of their reason, they are by definition impeded.

Anyway Vote Closed. Show time
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Feb 12, 2024 at 9:04 AM, finished with 56 posts and 8 votes.
 
While they're in the FFC can't we just have magical healers work on them?
Different scene.
By the time you're done, the scene-long buffs expire.

Lash also isn't the only one who can buff them. We've had enough time for teams of Fortune sorcerers be assembled ready to bless them before they're deployed.
No we dont.
We explicitly voted to skip prep time to rush things. Thats why we're here, with Molly at 9/15 Essence, and its not nightfall.
 
As I understand it?
Its need and drive and talent that determines attributes and skills.
Age is a factor, but not the key determinant.



The point is that she spent time honing his senses.
And someone who spent several months learning to detect and anticipate attacks from Mab-chosen concealment is more qualified than most to evaluate the quality and comprehensiveness of the veils of other people.

You dont have to be a master vintner to be a sommelier, though it definitely helps.



Harry can reach out and feel the emotions of masses of people, or detect the presence of people under a veil. He can feel the aura of power around a powerful practitioner, or the impending power of a ritual or a magical spell.

He doesnt trace the flow of electricity in his own house, or the small explosions in an internal combustion engine.
He doesnt detect the emissions of a cop's radar gun, or the radars increasingly prevalent in modern cars, or the radiowaves of AM transmissions in the air.

They are not at all equivalent.



I do not recall Lea ever showing interest in Murphy; indeed, I think the first time they ever met was in Changes. Citation?
I would appreciate it if you can recall where you saw it.



What makes you think they dont know?

Because they dont talk casually about it to random mortals and young supernaturals, in a setting where talking about magical entities can draw their attention, for good or for ill? Remember Bob's absolute refusal to go anywhere near even talking about the topic of the Shroud of Turin in Death Masks as being outside his jurisdiction?


The Sin-Eater has been here more than five thousand years, back into pre-history. The Mantle of its representative has existed for that long, and been passed down from wielder to wielder.

It recruiting the Dragon to build Las Vegas, and then getting into a spirited contract renegotiation with him that literally tore up the then Air Force Gunnery Range outside Las Vegas so badly that it was used as a nuclear testing ground?
All happened in the 20th century.

Citation:
A Brief History of Sin
Let's get the big one out of the way first: there's a reason we call this place Sin City. It's not just a marketing ploy. The city literally feeds on the energy of corruption, a psychic vampire miles and miles across. Every bad thing everyone does—from the smallest of white lies to the most heinous and dehumanizing of crimes— works in some small part to sate its hunger.

As bad as that sounds, it's actually the lesser of evils. Without that corruptive energy, Vegas would no longer be able to serve its actual purpose, sealing away something even worse underneath Nevada, stirring in the depths.

I don't know exactly what that is. It could be an entity, or simply a point of contact with some horrible Beyond. I do know that the last time it broke through, it scarred Death Valley into the very crust of the Earth. The gate, for lack of a better term, was sealed between its world and ours sometime in pre-history, perhaps by powerful shamans in the Anasazi or their ancestors.

I only know that, whoever it was, they also summoned something to deal with the problem and keep the seal intact, a demon in every sense of the word. It demanded a high price for its service—the continual direction of corruptive power right into its black heart for eternity. There has always been one person, the demon's contact with the mortal world, responsible for making sure this happens.

On March 17, 1905, the demon passed this mantle to a noble of the Red Court, who afterward answered only to "the Dragon."
The Dragon proved equal to the challenge, using the Court's finances and guiding the right people to build Las Vegas up. It started with Block 16 and the "dude ranches," and eventually became the sprawling thing you now know, with the Red Court or their proxies propping up much of the financial might necessary to make it function.

It hasn't all been smooth sailing. Once the Dragon realized what he had gotten himself into, he tried to break free from the demon's grip, leading to all-out war. It's no coincidence that the United States government chose the Las Vegas Aerial Gunnery School as a nuclear test site. Those craters in the ground are the scars of their battle.

In the end, the Dragon lost.
The heady cost of his struggle forced him to diversify; soon, other supernatural beings came to answer the call of Vegas, seeing prime opportunities to be had. Vegas was new, an untapped source of energy, food, slaves, favors, debts, and bargains—the grease on the wheels of the empowered world.

The Dragon shaped them until they unwittingly fed the city, allowing each faction to pursue their interests to a point, but curbing anyone who threatened to curtail the city's growth—no people, no more sin. He had balanced the equation. The demon was satisfied.

Then someone killed the Dragon, along with the rest of his kind. I see a name—Harry Dresden, awash in sin and blood.
Mr. Dresden, if you're out there, you have very likely doomed this place.



Thats like saying its easier to ignore an active volcano, or an active fault line, than a bunch of serial killers.

I can very much see some Native American magic-users having quiet conversations with one or two proven Library representatives to help keep an eye on things. Or even just to warn them off poking the area.
Especially after the Sin-Eater picked a Red Court noble as its latest representative in the 1900s.

===
RL history shows that despite everything the United States has systematically done to its minorities, that they still manage to command significant loyalties among its population.
Up to 70% of the male populations of some Native American tribes served in WW2.

Black American soldiers have fought and died in its wars even as they were being systematically oppressed at home, shit that continues into the modern day.



True. Key words: Free.

Shamans/medicine men are not free magic practitioners. Its explicitly characterized as a religious practice, and while Im not more than superficially familiar with Native American practice, especially as interpreted in the Dresdenverse, they do appear to bear some allegiance to spirits and divine pantheons.

Not all of them are, of course.
Listens to Wind, for example, is an example of someone who is adjacent but not in the practice; Shagnasty explicitly says he is not a holy man, and doesnt follow the Blessing Way.

===
As for the implications?
I genuinely dont think it would require all that much effort to watch rival organizations fail, coupled with inducements to recruit/merge with the bigger organizations.

You have to remember that the White Council's founding received a lot of subtle patronage to survive its early days.

Merlin was trained by Odin, for example(yes, that means that Odin is Harry's great-grandmaster/grandsensei several degrees removed). White Council HQ at the Hidden Halls of Edinburgh with its control of leyline nexuses and multiple Way conjunctons and its massively powerful wards that need a god to break used to be a Sidhe stronghold that Merlin "won" in a "bet".

The Blackstaff wielded by the Blackstaff used to be Mother Winter's walking stick, and I doubt that fell into their hands by accident, either.



Please stop accusing me of twisting information just because you find it inconvenient.
Its a quest; roleplaying is mandatory.


Its not nonsense to point out that environment and need shapes technology.
If Sanctuary had no wars, we would have no weapons technology. An environment where radar doesnt work very well is not going to have made major investments in spoofing said radars, or have radar-stealth armed drones on the shelf.

This is something whose implications weve already seen in some of our medical sciences and technologies, and when we were talking about options for Amanda Beckitt; the lack of accidental death in our environment and general cyberware compatibility affects what options we have for treating Earth people.



To give another example, due to the way Sanctuary's geography is described, AFAICR, with no seas or large open bodies of water, we have no people with experience in shipbuilding or operating a navy or amphibious operations, and should thus have no expectations for our minions operating on or underwater without a lot of remedial training.

Conversely, our techbase should have particular expertise with observational astronomy, high energy physics, funky material science and hazardous environment operations.
The doylist of that would be the people of our hell aren't all that talented then. Which with the culture of excellence and there being billions of them would just be depressing. Also fairly sure our hell has had wars its just only semi recently united on a historical level as far as I know.
 
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No we dont.
We explicitly voted to skip prep time to rush things. Thats why we're here, with Molly at 9/15 Essence, and its not nightfall.

Since we prepped the FCfF to assemble kill teams we have, I believe.

Harry Dresden, obviously.

As of this point in time, Dresden has canonically
  • Disrupted Victor Sells' storm-powered death ritual in Storm Front
  • Disrupted Nicodemus' plague ritual in Death Masks
  • Disrupted at least one use of the Outsider entropy ritual, and sabotaged the last use of it by Madge Shelly in Blood Rites
  • Summoned and bound the Erl King, summoned Sue the necromantic T-Rex, and disrupted the Darkhallow in Dead Beat
  • Diverted/disrupted the final Fetch summoning ritual in Proven Guilty

Man has a reputation for fucking up other people's magic.
Anyone who has a list of the people involved is going to point fingers at the Starborn White Council wizard for that shit. I presume thats the reason why he, not Lydia or Lash, was the target of the gunman at the Wendy's.

Wouldn't have had had a hope in hell of pulling off what we just did on unfamiliar territory without massive support. It would have been literally impossible for him without assistance of multiple other very powerful wizards. Unassisted I don't think he gets to within an order of magnitude of being able to deal with this on the fly.

We're not in Chicago. He doesn't have the home field advantage which substitutes for the preparation critical for wizards to perform.
 
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Barring something like a portal to the inside of our soul we could take congresspeople/state department officials through to verify our claims, our state is not something that exists on earth and we'd have to ferry people in and out. For the government as a whole to formally recognize the Brass Courts would presumably require a masqueradeless world. Plus there's the weirdness of the nation existing inside a person/living dimensional portal because generally citizens of a nation can move by boat or car or airplane without dependency on a single person.

New laws would probably have to be written for our case if we wanted formal diplomatic recognition by the govt as a whole. Otherwise we'll get a lot of weird looks when we claim to be a sovereign nation in and of ourselves.
I'm not sure the travel angle makes a difference here. There have been plenty of times throughout history where travel was difficult and dangerous enough that it wasn't common to move around much. There have also been plenty of cases where freedom of movement wasn't guaranteed. North Korea, for example, is still a nation even though it basically enslaved its populace and has one border all but cut off with landmines.

Going the other direction, just because Molly can bring people out doesn't mean they actually are present wherever she is for most purposes. It's more like we bring our own border with us.

Some new agreements would be needed, but that specific aspect isn't a blocker.
 
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