To be fair, RPGs run the gauntlet from absolutely ancient (by AT Munitions standards) up to relatively modern weapons (not more than 20 years old rather than going on 50), and we don't know where on that scale these were.
It's also not like he's saying that they'd come in with the really heavy stuff, but even a dozen or so man-portable/infantry mortars or the like can do a lot of damage very very quickly, particularly if they have more advanced or unusual types of ordnance, and we have seen supernatural players in DF use proscribed weapons/WMDs before.
In Even Hand, Marcone deployed claymore mines as part of his personal defences against the attacking Fomor sorcerer lord.
In Death Masks, he had an ex-Coast Guard helicopter deploy him and the rest of the party to Nicodemus' hijacked train.
And in Small Favor, that same helicopter came upgraded with at least one door-mounted minigun.
Supernaturally-aware Mafia dudes in the Dresden Files are built different.
Dont get our ass handed to us because we underestimate one.
The sin in Las Vegas has very little to do with human trafficking mostly because human trafficking takes humans that sin out of Las vegas. Two a woman who is known to have a proficiency with mind magic just has to get at lieutenants who do have to be out in public some times. To get those weapons because mafiosos and most organizations are vulnerable to mind control.
The sin in Las Vegas has very much to do with human trafficking.
The source material is explicitly clear that if the sex trade was made legal, much of the power that the Sin-Eater gets from it being illegal and transgressive would vanish. There's a reason the demon is called a Sin-Eater in this AU.
There is no evidence that Sandra Marling has a proficiency with mind magic.
She used no mind magic on Molly in Chicago, just mundane persuasion and seduction. It would defeat the point of corrupting you if the not-Nephandi had to use magic to make you do something.
Believe it or not it's not about losing merchandise it's about how do we prevent someone who's completely on the side of destroying reality from using mind control on our people because normally mind control is employed by soul sucking vampires who don't want to do crazy overt shit like fire rocket launchers down Main Street and other beings that want to maintain the masquerade. This is also outside of the fact that yes militaries and most mortal organizations do in fact misplace heavy Munitions a worrying amount at times. I myself have no military service time but both of my parents do and they swear my dad did artillery and my mom did Communications and just shells and radios and pretty much anything that could go missing did occasionally go missing when they were in Afghanistan and Kosovo.
This is a Mafia operation, not the government.
The Mafia are a business, the government are a nationstate.
Nationstates can afford a certain degree of waste and spoilage as written into their budget; the Mafia less so.
A business, even a gunrunning business, that cannot keep track of its merchandise does not survive.
In Even Hand, Marcone deployed claymore mines as part of his personal defences against the attacking Fomor sorcerer lord.
In Death Masks, he had an ex-Coast Guard helicopter deploy him and the rest of the party to Nicodemus' hijacked train.
And in Small Favor, that same helicopter came upgraded with at least one door-mounted minigun.
Supernaturally-aware Mafia dudes in the Dresden Files are built different.
Dont get our ass handed to us because we underestimate one.
You speak from ignorance.
The sin in Las Vegas has very much to do with human trafficking.
The source material is explicitly clear that if the sex trade was made legal, much of the power that the Sin-Eater gets from it being illegal and transgressive would vanish. There's a reason the demon is called a Sin-Eater in this AU.
There is no evidence that Sandra Marling has a proficiency with mind magic.
She used no mind magic on Molly in Chicago, just mundane persuasion and seduction. It would defeat the point of corrupting you if the not-Nephandi had to use magic to make you do something.
This is a Mafia operation, not the government.
The Mafia are a business, the government are a nationstate.
Nationstates can afford a certain degree of waste and spoilage as written into their budget; the Mafia less so.
A business, even a gunrunning business, that cannot keep track of its merchandise does not survive.
That doesn't answer the question how do they prevent lieutenants who have clearance to take munitions and merchandise from doing so. That is fundamentally how equipment goes missing it doesn't matter if you're a military, business a mafia or a nation state. Also completely ignoring the point of possible mind control because a woman with a history for both teaching and using it was at the scene possibly literally mind controlling those two guys at that moment to fire those rocket launchers.
Edit: you are indeed correct I did speak from ignorance on the human trafficking front. You also cannot have it both ways either Sandra is a Juiced up Nemesis fueled monster capable of feats Beyond imagining or she's a mostly mortal woman because granting magic to people is literally kind of infernal 101.
She used no mind magic on Molly in Chicago, just mundane persuasion and seduction. It would defeat the point of corrupting you if the not-Nephandi had to use magic to make you do something.
Or it could also be because she felt that using mind magic on a child of a Knight of the Cross was a bit too risky for her tastes? Particularly one who was likely at the time still accorded at least a portion of the protections that the families of the Knights get? Yeah, if Michael actually killed her (at least in cold blood) for that there would potentially be Repercussions, but is that really a risk that she'd want to take? Not even counting how provoking a literal guardian angel would go over.
In Even Hand, Marcone deployed claymore mines as part of his personal defences against the attacking Fomor sorcerer lord.
In Death Masks, he had an ex-Coast Guard helicopter deploy him and the rest of the party to Nicodemus' hijacked train.
And in Small Favor, that same helicopter came upgraded with at least one door-mounted minigun.
Supernaturally-aware Mafia dudes in the Dresden Files are built different.
Dont get our ass handed to us because we underestimate one.
No, but they can still potentially inflict horrendous civilian casualties and collateral damage in a relatively short timescale depending on what ordnance they have access to (Early Soviet surplus that's older than most people wielding them, up through older US military and Late Soviet/Early Russian ordnance, all the way up to modern munitions (which we know at least some supernatural powers have access to)), which would arguably be a loss condition for us as well, and would certainly fuck over any of the other groups operating in/around Las Vegas, most of which do not deserve such a fate. IOW, they may not be able to win, but they can most certainly Fuck Shit Up before they go down.
Furthermore, Sandra knows us pretty well, and knows (or at least has good reason to assume) that mass casualties in such a situation would, to put it bluntly, fuck Molly up, psychologically and mentally speaking. Who knows, that could even be part of how they plan to deal with Molly; try and psychologically wreck her to the point where she can't really do as much to interfere with Nemesis's plans, or else force her to cope in very unhealthy or otherwise problematic ways with said trauma.
Do we have any good ways to deal with Trauma beyond finding a very good therapist in the know?
Yeah @uju32 I get it when people agitate for running hands with the top end of the setting, but not everyone is actually a secret badass hiding their true power until there's a convenient exalt to fight.
He doesnt have to personally be an Exalted-tier combatant, mind.
Tommy apparently leads an experienced force of anti-supernatural hitters, is on his own home ground, and can draw on Mafia resources and potentially magical ones as well. Thats enough to make him credible opposition on its own.
But Im not going to ignore the potential of his being an Exalted-tier combatant either.
Demon Inside(TM) has proven to be a significant hardware upgrade if you have the right hookups, and we havent even seen anyone with proper combat Investments yet in this AU.
Lord Raith got immunity to mortal magic, and he only apparently cut a deal.
I doubt that sort of upgrade is available to everyone, but the potential is worth remembering as how high some of this can scale.
True, but it's not like nemesis needs human belief to be here. The only Outsider it doesn't try to broadly spread the name of is itself. Not telling people is only of marginal utility and leaves them missing the context that someone who lives for subverting people one way or the other is directing operations in their area.
I did mean to say that Nemesis apparently likes to operate in secrecy, and to limit those who know about it. Just like Nicodemus takes time out of his schedule every couple decades to destroy archives and archivists specializing in preserving information about Denarians in general and himself in particular, Nemesis appears to do the same thing.
So if whoever you tell cant take care of themselves, you are simply signing their death warrant.
The upper echelons of the White Council know about Nemesis(thats explicitly established in Morgan's journal), but never mentioned it to the juniors for example.
Because until they get old enough and potent enough, it will just get them killed.
I dont think Arlene can currently survive that sort of attention.
To be fair, RPGs run the gauntlet from absolutely ancient (by AT Munitions standards) up to relatively modern weapons (not more than 20 years old rather than going on 50), and we don't know where on that scale these were.
It's also not like he's saying that they'd come in with the really heavy stuff, but even a dozen or so man-portable/infantry mortars or the like can do a lot of damage very very quickly, particularly if they have more advanced or unusual types of ordnance, and we have seen supernatural players in DF use proscribed weapons/WMDs before.
Or it could also be because she felt that using mind magic on a child of a Knight of the Cross was a bit too risky for her tastes? Particularly one who was likely at the time still accorded at least a portion of the protections that the families of the Knights get?
As far as we know, Sandra Marling has never displayed any mind magic capabilities.
Its nice to speculate, but there is no evidence that its a standard capability for Outsider agents in general, let alone Sandra in particular.
Outsiders do mental attacks, but they dont do mental control or influence as far as we've seen so far.
With the possible exception of Nemesis.
When the goal was to make Molly break the Laws so the White Council would come after her AND Dresden?
Trying to mind control her to do so kinda would be an autofail.
And thats even assuming that the Rules in play allow that level of chicanery from someone affiliated with the Outside.
Note that they still lost every time they got into something without direct supernatural support.
I'm not going to deny they're dangerous, but it's highly unlikely they're equipped to win a fight like that all on their own.
Everytime they did so without supernatural support of their own.
The leader of this Mafia cell is a supernatural. His patron is unknown.
His patron's resources are unknown. And his crew appears to be working with an Outsider-affiliated magic user, who we know with preptime can summon supernatural muscle.
A mix of high-end mortal weaponry and supernatural effects has horrific synergy.
And the splash radius in an urban center can be dire.
No, but they can still potentially inflict horrendous civilian casualties and collateral damage in a relatively short timescale depending on what ordnance they have access to (Early Soviet surplus that's older than most people wielding them, up through older US military and Late Soviet/Early Russian ordnance, all the way up to modern munitions (which we know at least some supernatural powers have access to)), which would arguably be a loss condition for us as well, and would certainly fuck over any of the other groups operating in/around Las Vegas, most of which do not deserve such a fate.
When the goal was to make Molly break the Laws so the White Council would come after her AND Dresden?
Trying to mind control her to do so kinda would be an autofail.
And thats even assuming that the Rules in play allow that level of chicanery from someone affiliated with the Outside.
Since Molly has been thinking about this quite a lot I'm going to say from her understanding there is nothing stopping a mortal from selling their fealty to Things Outside and as long as the being remains mostly mortal (so not like whoever made those magical protections you saw at the White Court Party) free will applies.... including the free will to mind control others.
Anyway, good night guys, see you tomorrow, hopefully earlier in the day if there are enough votes so I can have longer to answer questions and just talk with you guys now that the flu seems to be receding back into the darkness whence it came.
Unless he's really stupid it's unlikely a mob boss would show up to something like this. If he's good enough to have arranged this he's good enough to know we're involved, especially since he's been tracking us via a car that's been here multiple times today.
If he's a second hand nemesis pawn via mind magic it's even more pointless, because they're hunting us and wouldn't let him respond to a legitimate issue even if they somehow didn't see through it.
"Tommy... no, he's a good boy, better at least than one would expect given his upbringing." She sighs at Harry's dubious look, but goes on to explain that even though Tommy might work for the mob, his particular outfit had never been involved in trafficking people, just guns and drugs, which made them something of a natural ally of the Followers of Ishtar. She suspects they had either been tricked or enchanted into doing something so foolish.
Who says he's involved at all? As far as I see, there are two options:
1) He's a part of Nemesis-affiliated forces, as are his subordinates. In this case, the call doesn't matter.
2) He's not a part of Nemesis-affiliated forces. Someone (Sandra?) suborned his guys. In this case, we show him respect by involving him, and potentially gain an ally.
Basically, I want to test Arlene's hypothesis. She thinks that he isn't involved in this, and his people were tricked / suborned. Let's test this. We might get an ally out of this.
That doesn't answer the question how do they prevent lieutenants who have clearance to take munitions and merchandise from doing so. That is fundamentally how equipment goes missing it doesn't matter if you're a military, business a mafia or a nation state. Also completely ignoring the point of possible mind control because a woman with a history for both teaching and using it was at the scene possibly literally mind controlling those two guys at that moment to fire those rocket launchers.
Edit: you are indeed correct I did speak from ignorance on the human trafficking front. You also cannot have it both ways either Sandra is a Juiced up Nemesis fueled monster capable of feats Beyond imagining or she's a mostly mortal woman because granting magic to people is literally kind of infernal 101.
1)This isnt an army, its a Mafia crew.
There's fewer made men involved than in a US rifle platoon. They all know each other personally, who knows what is available, where its stored, and who has access at what times.
If you fuck around, you end up at the bottom of Lake Mead with concrete shoes or in a shallow grave in the Nevada desert.
You're doing the equivalent of asking how the Mafia and the drug cartels keep track of drug product.
The answer is, very well. If they couldnt, they wouldnt exist as a business.
2) There is no evidence that Sandra Marling knows or has a gift for mind control, not in canon and not in this AU.
If you are going to repeat this claim, I am going to request a citation.
3)Yes you can.
You can access infernal Investments and powers without compromising your free will in World of Darkness and the Dresdenverse; you might have to make a bargain to fulfill some condition as either a one-time or periodic thing, or it might even be free if your patron likes what you are doing.
Constantine Raith had an Outsider Investment that made him immune to mortal magic(as in, the Blackstaff repeatedly tried to kill him and failed) and it didnt put the White Court under Outsider control.
Hell, Dresden was throwing around Hellfire for free without suddenly becoming a Hellspawn.
1)This isnt an army, its a Mafia crew.
There's fewer made men involved than in a US rifle platoon. They all know each other personally, who knows what is available, where its stored, and who has access at what times.
If you fuck around, you end up at the bottom of Lake Mead with concrete shoes or in a shallow grave in the Nevada desert.
You're doing the equivalent of asking how the Mafia and the drug cartels keep track of drug product.
The answer is, very well. If they couldnt, they wouldnt exist as a business.
2) There is no evidence that Sandra Marling knows or has a gift for mind control, not in canon and not in this AU.
If you are going to repeat this claim, I am going to request a citation.
3)Yes you can.
You can access infernal Investments and powers without compromising your free will in World of Darkness and the Dresdenverse; you might have to make a bargain to fulfill some condition as either a one-time or periodic thing, or it might even be free if your patron likes what you are doing.
Constantine Raith had an Outsider Investment that made him immune to mortal magic(as in, the Blackstaff repeatedly tried to kill him and failed) and it didnt put the White Court under Outsider control.
Hell, Dresden was throwing around Hellfire for free without suddenly becoming a Hellspawn.
She literally uses a veil in the last chapter. Veils are mind Magic they are not considered as such to be enthralling as the white Council puts it in their edict but they are indeed mind magic. They are illusions that directly mess with the sensory perception of everyone who might see you they range from a sense of aversion that you want to avoid to outright stopping people from seeing you despite looking you in the face. We get to see her doing the latter and almost succeeding.
The cops here may or may not be useless but past a certain point the army gets called in, you can't exactly do as you please as an illegal mortal force. Blowing shit up and civilian casualties is bad for business so I can't see that being his initial response to someone asking for a meeting.
He'll probably deny her request at most.. unless he is being mindcontrolled in which case contacting him is a no go. Hmmm...
Who says he's involved at all? As far as I see, there are two options:
1) He's a part of Nemesis-affiliated forces, as are his subordinates. In this case, the call doesn't matter.
2) He's not a part of Nemesis-affiliated forces. Someone (Sandra?) suborned his guys. In this case, we show him respect by involving him, and potentially gain an ally.
1)If he isnt utterly incompetent, he would notice the active subversion and misappropriation of resources.
The sheer scope of the coordination required for that ambush, from the rental office surveillance to the GPS data to the weaponry, requires pretty-near total penetration of a crew that cant be more than maybe twenty or thirty people.
If he's not dead, he's in on it.
===
2)The call would matter because it would be confirming our location to someone whose minions have actively attacked us with heavy weaponry, while at the moment they can only make a guess based on which garage we are parked in.
At the moment, for all they know, we parked our cars and went to another location.
And if its a covered garage, there's no GPS signal getting out.
===
3) Assuming your argument no 2 is accurate and he's not involved?
If Sandra has suborned his guys, he has no powerbase. Just liabilities in the things his guys have done in his name. Which makes him a terrible ally.
I will remind you that his crew have staged the murder of a senior police officer; Sergeant Andrews of the Las Vegas PD.
And her squad is going to be out for blood.
Thats a bill that is going to come due, and we have no interest in being in the splash radius when it does.
Basically, I want to test Arlene's hypothesis. She thinks that he isn't involved in this, and his people were tricked / suborned. Let's test this. We might get an ally out of this.
This really doesnt make sense to me.
If his crew has been subverted out from under him and he didnt notice, he would make a piss poor ally. Most people arent going to buy that he knew nothing about it.
If he's an associate of Sandra's, we risk providing actionable information for a major confrontation in a location with lots of civilians and mortals.
Thats just contra our interests in particular and those of Las Vegas in general.
You want to talk to the dude?
Interrogate his guys first, THEN call him from somewhere there are no squishies who will die if shit goes south.
Dont do it from, and I quote:
The Hanging Garden is an ultralounge sitting on Las Vegas Boulevard, an anomaly among the strip malls and souvenir shops that usually dominate the spaces between major casinos. It's the stronghold of Arlene Ghorbani and the chief meeting place for the Followers of Ishtar. The ultralounge is a peculiar phenomenon that arose in the late 1990s and has since become the normative style among nightclubs in Las Vegas, offering an upscale atmosphere with a decentralized layout that allows for the creation of private conversation spaces throughout. You can get VIP "bottle service" for an exorbitant amount of money—this provides you with a reserved seating area for you and your party and, as the name suggests, bottles of alcohol. The emphasis is on drinking and socializing more than dancing; few ultralounges have a separate dance floor.
At the Hanging Garden, the decor is inspired by the Babylonian phenomenon of the same name; its twisted, forking paths seem to grow out of the walls and alcoves, with verdant imported plant life following in kind. Stark stone facades suggest an ancient temple complex, and depictions of Ishtar dominate the bas-reliefs and small shrines that make up the artwork. The music is almost always muted and atmospheric—ambient house on a spine of awzan, the takht coupling with the electron.
Entry to the Hanging Garden is extremely exclusive and by association only—a previous guest of Ishtar must invite you. The dress code is lax compared to other clubs; the Followers insist that one should appear as one does, without pretense. This doesn't prevent the staff and most of the attendees from collectively looking like a Paris fashion show.
She literally uses a veil in the last chapter. Veils are mind Magic they are not considered as such to be enthralling as the white Council puts it in their edict but they are indeed mind magic. They are illusions that directly mess with the sensory perception of everyone who might see you they range from a sense of aversion that you want to avoid to outright stopping people from seeing you despite looking you in the face. We get to see her doing the latter and almost succeeding.
No they arent.
Some veils can be mind magic, usually nonhuman. Most arent.
Most veils used by human magic users are almost exclusively physical.
Murphy explicitly noticed Molly through her veil in White Night because she makes noise and smells, and I quote:
White Night chapter 2 said:
Molly gave me a grateful glance.
Murphy's tone softened as she took the cuffs off. "Don't we all." Molly rubbed at her wrists, wincing. "Um. Sergeant? How did you know I was there?" "Floorboards creaking when no one was standing on them," I said.
"Your deodorant," Murphy said.
"Your tongue stud clicked against your teeth once," I said. "I felt some air move a few minutes ago," Murphy said. "Didn't feel like a draft."
Molly swallowed and her face turned pink. "Oh."
"But we didn't see you, did we, Murph?"
Murphy shook her head. "Not even a little."
A little humiliation and ego deflation, now and then, is good for apprentices. Mine sighed miserably.
"Well," I said. "You're here. Might as well tag along." I nodded to Murphy and headed for the door.
"Where are we going?" Molly asked. Both bored medtechs blinked and stared as Molly followed me out of the apartment. Murphy came out behind us and waved them in to carry the body out.
"To see a friend of mine," I said. "You like polka?"
Dresden sees the naagloshii cast multiple veils in Turn Coat, and each time they are visual affairs that get disrupted by getting hit. For example, at the Raith estate assault:
Turn Coat chapter 25 said:
A shotgun boomed, much closer to us than the earlier gunfire had been. It was immediately followed by the sounds of something heavy being slammed several times into the walls and floor.
The psychic stench of the skinwalker abruptly thickened and I said, "Here it comes!" By the time I got to "it," the skinwalker was already through the door to the outer office, seemingly moving faster than the splinters that flew off the door when the creature shattered it. Covered in a veil, it was just a flickering blur in the air.
I brought my shield up, focused far forward, filling the doorway to Lara's office with invisible force. The skinwalker hit the barrier with all of its strength and speed. The shield held—barely—but so much energy had gone into the impact that wisps of smoke began curling up from the bracelet, and the skin on my wrist got singed. So much force surged into my shield that it physically drove me back across a foot of carpet. As it hit, the energies of the skinwalker's veil came into conflict with those in my shield, each canceling out the other, and for a second the creature was visible as an immensely tall, lean, shaggy, vaguely humanoid thingwith matted yellow hair and overlong forelimbs tipped in long, almost delicate claws.
As the shield fell, Anastasia pointed a finger at the thing and hissed a word, and a blindingly bright beam of light no thicker than a hair flashed out from her finger. It was fire magic not unlike my own, but infinitely more intense and focused and far more energy efficient. The beam swept past the skinwalker, intersecting with its upper left arm, and where it touched fur burned away and flesh boiled and bubbled and blackened.
The skinwalker flashed to one side of the doorway and vanished, leaving nothing behind but a view of the smoking pinprick hole in the expensive paneling of the outer office.
I pointed my staff at the door and Lara did the same thing with the gun.
For maybe ten seconds, everything was silent.
Your description has nothing to do with how veils work, by the way.
I quote:
Peace Talks c23 said:
I went up the ramp with the accelerator mashed flat to the floor, and the cars following me had little choice but to emulate me. I'd timed my exit well, though. I gathered my will as I watched a couple of legitimate vehicles get in the way of my pursuers, and I reached the top of the ramp just in time for the green light. I went right through the intersection, back onto the entry ramp, and back down toward the highway, and as I went, I waved my hand in a gesture reminiscent of drawing a hood up over one's head, and murmured, "Obscurata."
There was an odd sensation, like a fine cold mist drifting down over me, and the interior of the car dimmed, as though heavy clouds had suddenly obscured the light, to the point where you'd have trouble telling what time it was by looking at the position of the sun.
Visibility dropped suddenly and dramatically. Magic is awesome, but you don't get anything for free—mess around with how much light is going to bounce off your body, and you're also futzing about with how much light makes it to your eyeballs, and for that matter how much light is available to do things like keep you warm. Going unseen isn't a super complicated operation—doing it without blinding and freezing yourself is the hard part. I had settled on developing a veiling spell that would split the difference between visibility and comfort—by choice, obviously, and not because it was totally not my area of natural talent—and as a result, looking out of my veil was only a little easier than seeing into it. The world went dim, and just as it did, Murphy sat up straight, her eyes bright.
"Hey," she said. "Does this spell stop radar?" "Uh," I said. I was already holding on to a veil and driving faster than was strictly safe, and my attention can only split so many ways. "Not mine. Molly's will stop almost everything, but I only bother with visible light becau—"
Murphy reached over while I was still talking and pushed down on my right knee, hard, pressing the accelerator flat again. "Faster."
1)If he isnt utterly incompetent, he would notice the active subversion and misappropriation of resources.
The sheer scope of the coordination required for that ambush, from the rental office surveillance to the GPS data to the weaponry, requires pretty-near total penetration of a crew that cant be more than maybe twenty or thirty people.
If he's not dead, he's in on it.
===
2)The call would matter because it would be confirming our location to someone whose minions have actively attacked us with heavy weaponry, while at the moment they can only make a guess based on which garage we are parked in.
At the moment, for all they know, we parked our cars and went to another location.
And if its a covered garage, there's no GPS signal getting out.
===
3) Assuming your argument no 2 is accurate and he's not involved?
If Sandra has suborned his guys, he has no powerbase. Just liabilities in the things his guys have done in his name. Which makes him a terrible ally.
I will remind you that his crew have staged the murder of a senior police officer; Sergeant Andrews of the Las Vegas PD.
And her squad is going to be out for blood.
Thats a bill that is going to come due, and we have no interest in being in the splash radius when it does.
This really doesnt make sense to me.
If his crew has been subverted out from under him and he didnt notice, he would make a piss poor ally. Most people arent going to buy that he knew nothing about it.
If he's an associate of Sandra's, we risk providing actionable information for a major confrontation in a location with lots of civilians and mortals.
Thats just contra our interests in particular and those of Las Vegas in general.
You want to talk to the dude?
Interrogate his guys first, THEN call him from somewhere there are no squishies who will die if shit goes south.
Dont do it from, and I quote:
Whats essentially a high-end night club on Las Vegas Boulevard.
You risk getting lots of civilians killed to no purpose.
No they arent.
Some veils can be mind magic, usually nonhuman. Most arent.
Most veils used by human magic users are almost exclusively physical.
Murphy explicitly noticed Molly through her veil in White Night because she makes noise and smells, and I quote:
Dresden sees the naagloshii cast multiple veils in Turn Coat, and each time they are visual affairs that get disrupted by getting hit. For example, at the Raith estate assault:
Your description has nothing to do with how veils work, by the way.
I quote:
Magic veils mess with light.
Dresden largely sticks with visible light; Molly could fuck with the entire spectrum of light
Molly gave me a grateful glance.
Murphy's tone softened as she took the cuffs off. "Don't we all."
Molly rubbed at her wrists, wincing. "Um. Sergeant? How did you know I was there?"
"Floorboards creaking when no one was standing on them," I said.
"Your deodorant," Murphy said.
"Your tongue stud clicked against your teeth once," I said.
"I felt some air move a few minutes ago," Murphy said. "Didn't feel like a draft."
This quote literally has Murphy look at her floorboards creaking when no one was standing on which means Murphy looked her in the face and didn't see her now you can say that that's light manipulation but someone standing right in front of you that you can't acknowledge the presence of or move towards but can acknowledge there is someone there because you know about magic just means they're under Veil that you can't see through.
Notice neither of them say that she bumps into them so either using light manipulation to mute all visible light so she's completely blind under that and still somehow managing to avoid touching either them despite following close enough for them to hear the clicking of her tongue, feel the movement of the air on their skin and smell her deodorant or that is obviously a mind affecting Veil.
On the point of little Tommy not noticing two of his guys go missing. Mafias are smaller operations but they are still hierarchical organizations. Munitions especially for mercs rely on clearance to take out it doesn't matter the size of the organization. Also Sandra having mind affecting magic let's say she doesn't despite being able to teach someone how to use mind magic more effectively. Does she personally need that to be able to make two non-magical mafiosos take out munitions, not really.
Also I have no clue where you're getting the numbers for the mafia in Las Vegas maybe your pulling it from the ttrpg but mafia's can number in the low hundreds of members whether that be from essentially incoming family to people on the streets Las Vegas is a major city full of money making opportunities there is no way there's only 20 to 30 guys in his Mafia are you insane. Especially if he's meant to be a mercenary company there's no way it's only 20 to 30 guys. The level of penetration can be three people because unless you are an army literally that is the level of access that is needed a lieutenant with the right clearance or two Schmucks and a administrator that's willing to turn a blind eye that's all she would need on the infiltration front.
You are both over and underestimating the competency of little Tommy the ability to micromanage an organization is directly correlated to its size a mercenary company that has weapons like rocket launchers is definitely above the size of a singular Supernatural no matter which one you're talking about to directly manage like that. That is supposing He even could directly notice that the either one or two of his men have been subverted by the enemy that can hide from our vision on a lucky roll.
[X] Ask Arlene about the general goings on in Vegas of late so you have context for all this
-[X] If she can, have her call Tommy to come under some urgent pretext that isn't directly "we have your guys"
This seems like the smartest option presented so far.
This quote literally has Murphy look at her floorboards creaking when no one was standing on which means Murphy looked her in the face and didn't see her now you can say that that's light manipulation but someone standing right in front of youthat you can't acknowledge the presence of or move towards but can acknowledge there is someone there because you know about magic just means they're under Veil that you can't see through.
Notice neither of them say that she bumps into them so either using light manipulation to mute all visible light so she's completely blind under that and still somehow managing to avoid touching either them despite following close enough for them to hear the clicking of her tongue, feel the movement of the air on their skin and smell her deodorant or that is obviously a mind affecting Veil.
Have you actually read the book? Honest question.
Because Murphy tackled Molly when she was under a veil; she had no trouble locating her by sound, or deciding to attack and restrain her:
With no warning whatsoever, Murphy moved, spinning in a blur of motion that swept her leg out in a scything, ankle-height arc behind her. There was a thump of impact, and the sound of something heavy hitting the floor. Murphy—her eyes closed—sprang onto something unseen, and her hands moved in a couple of small, quick circles, fingers grasping. Then Murphy grunted, set her arms, and twisted her shoulders a little. There was a young woman's high-pitched gasp of pain, and abruptly, underneath Murphy, there was a girl. Murphy had her pinned on her stomach on the floor, one arm twisted behind her, wrist bent at a painful angle.
The girl was in her late teens. She wore combat boots, black fatigue pants, and a tight, cutoff grey T-shirt. She was tall, most of a foot taller than Murphy, and built like a brick house. Her hair had been cut into a short, spiky style and dyed peroxide white. A tattoo on her neck vanished under her shirt, reappeared for a bit on her bared stomach, and continued beneath the pants. She had multiple earrings, a nose ring, an eyebrow ring, and a silver stud through that spot right under her lower lip. On the hand Murphy had twisted up behind her back, she wore a bracelet of dark little glass beads.
"Harry?" Murphy said in that tone of voice that, while polite and patient, demanded an explanation.
The citations are clear: Dresdenverse veils bend light.
Thats what they do, and what they have always done.
Some can affect perceptions, but most cant, and dont.
On the point of little Tommy not noticing two of his guys go missing. Mafias are smaller operations but they are still hierarchical organizations. Munitions especially for mercs rely on clearance to take out it doesn't matter the size of the organization. Also Sandra having mind affecting magic let's say she doesn't despite being able to teach someone how to use mind magic more effectively. Does she personally need that to be able to make two non-magical mafiosos take out munitions, not really
They literally fired off RPGs on the Las Vegas Strip.
If they had been successful, it would have made the national news. Not just the FBI, but the CIA would be here digging.
You dont hide that sort of thing.
Sandra did not teach anything.
She planted the suggestion in Molly's head so that Molly would experiment and fuck up; she was never any kind of tutor. We didnt even know that Sandra could USE magic until we saw the veil just now.
Also I have no clue where you're getting the numbers for the mafia in Las Vegas maybe your pulling it from the ttrpg but mafia's can number in the low hundreds of members whether that be from essentially incoming family to people on the streets Las Vegas is a major city full of money making opportunities there is no way there's only 20 to 30 guys in his Mafia are you insane. Especially if he's meant to be a mercenary company there's no way it's only 20 to 30 guys. The level of penetration can be three people because unless you are an army literally that is the level of access that is needed a lieutenant with the right clearance or two Schmucks and a administrator that's willing to turn a blind eye that's all she would need on the infiltration front.
-This is Dresdenverse Las Vegas, where the White Court, Red Court, and multiple Wyldfae and magical factions thrive.
All fostered by the attention of the Sin-Eater's chosen seneschal.
This is not free real estate for mundane organized crime organizations.
-A Mafia family can number in the hundreds or maybe even thousands of people.
A Mafia crew is a subset of a family, led by a lieutenant or sub-boss, and crews never exceed the double digits.
The Fieracelli Mafia family, run by Big Tommy Fieracelli might have hundreds of members and affiliates.
Little Tommy Fieracelli's crew is, and I quote:
Little Tommy worked strictly for the family for a while, but he now operates freelance, head of a squad of trained anti-supernatural hitmen. He's never spoken of where he got his own powers from; he merely says that "the city needs me" and that "I'm never far from where I need to be."
You are both over and underestimating the competency of little Tommy the ability to micromanage an organization is directly correlated to its size a mercenary company that has weapons like rocket launchers is definitely above the size of a singular Supernatural no matter which one you're talking about to directly manage like that. That is supposing He even could directly notice that the either one or two of his men have been subverted by the enemy that can hide from our vision on a lucky roll.
Gunrunning is serious business, and you dont do that shit in the continental US without your whole chest.
Especially when you are not just dealing with small arms, but heavy weapons, which is when not just the ATF, but the DEA and FBI and the CIA and multiple three letter agencies sit up and take notice of you.
If he was incompetent, he would be in Federal penitentiary.
The ability to use a veil does not in any way translate to the ability to take over an organized crime crew without the head noticing.
For that ambush to have been successfully executed, the people involved had to use Little Tommy's Mafia connections to either employ or coerce people at *checks* 91 different rental car offices across 16 different rental companies in Las Vegas in order to keep a look out for our party.
Then they had to further have someone in the office that rented us our car track our rental car so they can stage the ambush.
THEN they have to plan to sanitize their trail by murdering everyone in those offices who sees the news and realizes they were accessories to a high-profile murder that will bring in the FBI and that the shooters might be doing cleanup.
And thats not counting the need to source the weapons from Little Tommy's stocks. Because Little Tommy will sure as fuck notice that someone attempted the RPG use when its reported on the news, and will crosscheck to make sure that he wasnt involved. Because both local police and the FBI and all sorts of black suits will be checking as well.
If he didnt notice this, any of this, he would be deaf, dumb and blind.
And dead, because organized crime is not kind to people who dont notice their underlings scheming.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 11, 2024 at 8:01 PM, finished with 41 posts and 7 votes.
[X] Ask Arlene about the general goings on in Vegas of late so you have context for all this -[X] If she can, have her call Tommy to come under some urgent pretext that isn't directly "we have your guys"
Have you actually read the book? Honest question.
Because Murphy tackled Molly when she was under a veil; she had no trouble locating her by sound, or deciding to attack and restrain her:
With no warning whatsoever, Murphy moved, spinning in a blur of motion that swept her leg out in a scything, ankle-height arc behind her. There was a thump of impact, and the sound of something heavy hitting the floor. Murphy—her eyes closed—sprang onto something unseen, and her hands moved in a couple of small, quick circles, fingers grasping. Then Murphy grunted, set her arms, and twisted her shoulders a little. There was a young woman's high-pitched gasp of pain, and abruptly, underneath Murphy, there was a girl. Murphy had her pinned on her stomach on the floor, one arm twisted behind her, wrist bent at a painful angle.
The girl was in her late teens. She wore combat boots, black fatigue pants, and a tight, cutoff grey T-shirt. She was tall, most of a foot taller than Murphy, and built like a brick house. Her hair had been cut into a short, spiky style and dyed peroxide white. A tattoo on her neck vanished under her shirt, reappeared for a bit on her bared stomach, and continued beneath the pants. She had multiple earrings, a nose ring, an eyebrow ring, and a silver stud through that spot right under her lower lip. On the hand Murphy had twisted up behind her back, she wore a bracelet of dark little glass beads.
"Harry?" Murphy said in that tone of voice that, while polite and patient, demanded an explanation.
The citations are clear: Dresdenverse veils bend light.
Thats what they do, and what they have always done.
Some can affect perceptions, but most cant, and dont.
They literally fired off RPGs on the Las Vegas Strip.
If they had been successful, it would have made the national news. Not just the FBI, but the CIA would be here digging.
You dont hide that sort of thing.
Sandra did not teach anything.
She planted the suggestion in Molly's head so that Molly would experiment and fuck up; she was never any kind of tutor. We didnt even know that Sandra could USE magic until we saw the veil just now.
-This is Dresdenverse Las Vegas, where the White Court, Red Court, and multiple Wyldfae and magical factions thrive.
All fostered by the attention of the Sin-Eater's chosen seneschal.
This is not free real estate for mundane organized crime organizations.
-A Mafia family can number in the hundreds or maybe even thousands of people.
A Mafia crew is a subset of a family, led by a lieutenant or sub-boss, and crews never exceed the double digits.
The Fieracelli Mafia family, run by Big Tommy Fieracelli might have hundreds of members and affiliates.
Little Tommy Fieracelli's crew is, and I quote:
Squad. Double digits max, and low double digits at that.
When I said sub-platoon, I meant it.
Gunrunning is serious business, and you dont do that shit in the continental US without your whole chest.
Especially when you are not just dealing with small arms, but heavy weapons, which is when not just the ATF, but the DEA and FBI and the CIA and multiple three letter agencies sit up and take notice of you.
If he was incompetent, he would be in Federal penitentiary.
The ability to use a veil does not in any way translate to the ability to take over an organized crime crew without the head noticing.
For that ambush to have been successfully executed, the people involved had to use Little Tommy's Mafia connections to either employ or coerce people at *checks* 91 different rental car offices across 16 different rental companies in Las Vegas in order to keep a look out for our party.
Then they had to further have someone in the office that rented us our car track our rental car so they can stage the ambush.
THEN they have to plan to sanitize their trail by murdering everyone in those offices who sees the news and realizes they were accessories to a high-profile murder that will bring in the FBI and that the shooters might be doing cleanup.
And thats not counting the need to source the weapons from Little Tommy's stocks. Because Little Tommy will sure as fuck notice that someone attempted the RPG use when its reported on the news, and will crosscheck to make sure that he wasnt involved. Because both local police and the FBI and all sorts of black suits will be checking as well.
If he didnt notice this, any of this, he would be deaf, dumb and blind.
And dead, because organized crime is not kind to people who dont notice their underlings scheming.
Okay I'm going to need a citation on them using GPS to find our car. Because we were on a major thoroughfare in Las Vegas we're not exactly a subtle group of people one of us is literally supernaturally attractive the one of us is a giant one of us is a teenager and the other one is just a walking bonfire of evil magic. So I'm going to need some proof that they use the GPS because you're really relying on that but it's doesn't seem like it's necessary and it involves mortal agents being involved in a hit literally. Maybe I did miss it in the text but there's seems to be no reason for them to have that.
Again I'm going to say there is no one who has any level of competence who would involve themselves in this operation willingly. There are multiple points where this doesn't make sense for a mafioso to be involved with this. The whacking of cops that aren't in your way and support your own interest, the open firing of Rocket Munitions on a Main Street, the open presence of a nemesis or Outsider infected wizard. You cannot claim that non-magical means are purely what is behind this because no one with any level of sense that cares about the Masquerade or continuing to do business in this city would ever ever commit to this.
There is no way to convince anyone to go along with this there must be magic involved because there's no way she can convince Tommy hey you want to shoot a rocket in your city that you live with your father as a criminal. She would have better luck convincing him to shoot himself in the face because it's functionally speaking the same thing.
There's thing Tommy will probably see it on the news and if he gets his hands on them and he doesn't find enchantments in their brains they're going to be wearing concrete shoes. I do not understand where you get this idea that deep infiltration is necessary or that anyone with common sense would go along with this plan it has way too many Loose Ends way too many absolute attention drawing features for this to be a sensical plan put in place this reeks of nemesis/outsider moves because it is filthy, destructive and worst of all really dumb if you're Tommy.
[X] Ask Arlene about the general goings on in Vegas of late so you have context for all this
-[X] If she can, have her call Tommy to come under some urgent pretext that isn't directly "we have your guys"
You know I wasn't for this at first but I've talked myself into it. Let's do it, let's see if we can hire some Mercenaries.
Okay I'm going to need a citation on them using GPS to find our car. Because we were on a major thoroughfare in Las Vegas we're not exactly a subtle group of people one of us is literally supernaturally attractive the one of us is a giant one of us is a teenager and the other one is just a walking bonfire of evil magic. So I'm going to need some proof that they use the GPS because you're really relying on that but it's doesn't seem like it's necessary and it involves mortal agents being involved in a hit literally. Maybe I did miss it in the text but there's seems to be no reason for them to have that.
We were in a rental Dodge Intrepid.
Its a very common car in the early 2000s; there were 650,000 Dodge Intrepids built between 1993 and 1997 alone, and the car model was built until 2004. You cant pick one out from others without someone telling you.
All rental cars have GPS trackers, and have since at least 2004.
I cant imagine how you think a pair of mundane mortal hitmen would have known which car to shoot at otherwise.
There is no way to convince anyone to go along with this there must be magic involved because there's no way she can convince Tommy hey you want to shoot a rocket in your city that you live with your father as a criminal. She would have better luck convincing him to shoot himself in the face because it's functionally speaking the same thing.
There's thing Tommy will probably see it on the news and if he gets his hands on them and he doesn't find enchantments in their brains they're going to be wearing concrete shoes. I do not understand where you get this idea that deep infiltration is necessary or that anyone with common sense would go along with this plan it has way too many Loose Ends way too many absolute attention drawing features for this to be a sensical plan put in place this reeks of nemesis/outsider moves because it is filthy, destructive and worst of all really dumb if you're Tommy.
I have explained it in detail before, and I will repeat:
In order to pull off this shit, she not only had to have subverted the actual shooters, she had to have subverted the vastly more numerous support network of organized crime affiliates that feed them information and provide support.
That means she either convinced Little Tommy himself, or she convinced his entire organization from under him.
Without his knowledge at that.
Its a lot more likely she convinced him, than that she convinced his entire team and he didnt notice.
We were in a rental Dodge Intrepid.
Its a very common car in the early 2000s; there were 650,000 Dodge Intrepids built between 1993 and 1997 alone, and the car model was built until 2004. You cant pick one out from others without someone telling you.
All rental cars have GPS trackers, and have since at least 2004.
I cant imagine how you think a pair of mundane mortal hitmen would have known which car to shoot at otherwise.
She's a Nephandus analogue. Convincing people is what they do.
I have explained it in detail before, and I will repeat:
In order to pull off this shit, she not only had to have subverted the actual shooters, she had to have subverted the vastly more numerous support network of organized crime affiliates that feed them information and provide support.
That means she either convinced Little Tommy himself, or she convinced his entire organization from under him.
Without his knowledge at that.
Its a lot more likely she convinced him, than that she convinced his entire team and he didnt notice.
They do not convince they lie cheat rape murder lure you into a place where you feel there is no choice and then invert your soul. There is nothing she could have possibly done in convincing to convince them as a that this was a good idea. You have not provided any proof of these things.
The idea that you would need that much support is false. To be frank even the idea that the rocket launchers belong to Little Timmy might be wrong. The idea that they need the GPS to find a powerful wizard a walking bonfire of dark magic death on legs and a demon is also way more than necessary any level of divination magic could tell where we are if we weren't using an anonymity through propriety, no one else in our party has that protection.
In the end you're trying to convince me that someone without magic made a semi competent Criminal organization perform an action with no monetary political or any really benefit on her word. You're trying to say that somehow without magic she is infiltrated and organization that might have a city exigent or very least a major Talent of magic and has done so in such a way that he could do nothing about it rather than just having some Outsiders kidnap and mind rape a couple of thugs off the street with clearances towards the weapons.
Also: read this from the start over the last few days, it's been really fun to watch Molly slowly but surely become a slowly growing primordial, cause it really seems like the Dresden verse could use someone of a species known for building creation to help with all the things picking at the gates<3
Does she have the potential to get there over the course of this quest or is that more of a few ages from now option?
