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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BronzeTongue said:
As a thread Christmas present, here's some sketchy WoJ transcriptions that are pretty hilarious:


Cite

Cite

I haven't actually watched the cited interviews and there's weird contradictions with other stuff from prior WoJs, like lord Raith not actually having immunity to mortal magic*, but Morgan causing Roswell by unknowingly catching aliens in his AoE while fighting a Naagoloshi and DF factions actually being made with the 5 dot scale in mind is too funny not to share.



* and apparently the nevernever does actually go everywhere instead of being concentrated around the solar system. No one has made it past the moon yet but apparently Margaret, probably meaning Harry's mom and not the other ones, was hardcore enough to have potentially make something work in that direction if she'd lived longer.
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Huh... So, WoD crossover is pretty close to canon canonically, and there are actual aliens in Rosewell. And Morgan is responsible for their deaths (I wonder how that squares with the Laws). Maybe we should tug on the alien thread?

And magic seems to be pretty limited outside Earth. Interesting.
 
Yog said:
Huh... So, WoD crossover is pretty close to canon canonically, and there are actual aliens in Rosewell. And Morgan is responsible for their deaths (I wonder how that squares with the Laws). Maybe we should tug on the alien thread?

And magic seems to be pretty limited outside Earth. Interesting.
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It probably does the exact same thing knowingly killing humans does with mortal magic make it easier and easier to believe its the right thing to do. Mind you if its the actual laws on paper then it probably doesn't count. Lastly they don't actually know they did that lol.
 
So Vegas is a place rife with opportunity and due to a supernatural force playing peacekeeper factions that normally wouldn't live under the same roof gather to do business and collectively take advantage of the human culture and whatever else makes the place such a hotspot.

That's the general vibe I'm getting as of now. It seems like the kind of place we can't afford to brute force without potentially massive blowback. I say we get in, get out and come back at a later date when we start eradicating the vampires enmass.

Merry Christmas everyone!
 
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BoredMan said:
So Vegas is a place rife with opportunity and due to a supernatural force playing peacemaker factions that normally wouldn't live under the same roof gather to do business and collectively take advantage of the human culture and whatever else makes the place such a hotspot.

That's the general vibe I'm getting as of now. It seems like the kind of place we can't afford to brute force without potentially massive blowback. I say we get in, get out and come back at a later date when we start eradicating the vampires enmass.
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That is a good way to put it. There is a Sin Eater containing Something from Outside, Molly does not know the details, but according to Maeve Vegas is its playground, one in which the larger factions of the supernatural world do not meddle. The city is a factory is Sin, but it can't just be Hell, a place where you only lose and never win since then they would just stop coming and the demon would starve, you have to be able to win.

If this sounds like a casino, it should. ;)
 
Yog said:
Huh... So, WoD crossover is pretty close to canon canonically, and there are actual aliens in Rosewell. And Morgan is responsible for their deaths (I wonder how that squares with the Laws). Maybe we should tug on the alien thread?

And magic seems to be pretty limited outside Earth. Interesting.
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There's another transcript where it claims Butcher said the comparison to WoD annoys him, so I don't think it's meant to be similar in most respects - just that there was some influence in how he framed some things.

Some of this stuff is also obscure enough that it could tread on DP's toes in terms of quest world building so I wouldn't assume the super niche things apply unless we get an indication on them.

If the Roswell thing did happen here my assumption would be that it's too indirect. Doing something like burning down a building without knowing people are inside still gets you backlash, but Morgan presumably wasn't trying to hex a minor god of torture who'd been asleep since before the widespread use of guns.

The Dresden Files are big on choice and consequence but techbane is like wizard body heat; Morgan didn't choose to deploy it and he didn't choose to ignore the risk to others and proceed casting anyway.

In terms of other potential impacts in context of the quest, earth being significantly more magical has some interesting implications.

We've already seen IC that reality is "thinner" now. What if that's literal?

This whole universe is Creation, not just earth, and if it's inheriting from exalted then that suggests the elemental poles may have some role. What if earth is more magical because it's sitting on one of them with the others being on opposite corners of the physical universe?

Which could also explain the gates being here, the primary armies defending reality being here, and vast gods poking around the neighborhood. Whatever pillar DF!earth is either the outermost one relative to the wyld now, or each pole has a gate and we only see the local one. As opposed to every planet being an entry point.

If this tenuous line of reasoning is close to correct then I'm tempted to further speculate that it's the pole of wood. Dresden keeps calling magic the power of life after all, and a lot of things are livelier than they should be.
 
BronzeTongue said:
There's another transcript where it claims Butcher said the comparison to WoD annoys him, so I don't think it's meant to be similar in most respects - just that there was some influence in how he framed some things.

Some of this stuff is also obscure enough that it could tread on DP's toes in terms of quest world building so I wouldn't assume the super niche things apply unless we get an indication on them.

If the Roswell thing did happen here my assumption would be that it's too indirect. Doing something like burning down a building without knowing people are inside still gets you backlash, but Morgan presumably wasn't trying to hex a minor god of torture who'd been asleep since before the widespread use of guns.

The Dresden Files are big on choice and consequence but techbane is like wizard body heat; Morgan didn't choose to deploy it and he didn't choose to ignore the risk to others and proceed casting anyway.

In terms of other potential impacts in context of the quest, earth being significantly more magical has some interesting implications.

We've already seen IC that reality is "thinner" now. What if that's literal?

This whole universe is Creation, not just earth, and if it's inheriting from exalted then that suggests the elemental poles may have some role. What if earth is more magical because it's sitting on one of them with the others being on opposite corners of the physical universe?

Which could also explain the gates being here, the primary armies defending reality being here, and vast gods poking around the neighborhood. Whatever pillar DF!earth is either the outermost one relative to the wyld now, or each pole has a gate and we only see the local one. As opposed to every planet being an entry point.

If this tenuous line of reasoning is close to correct then I'm tempted to further speculate that it's the pole of wood. Dresden keeps calling magic the power of life after all, and a lot of things are livelier than they should be.
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I doubt it simply cause there are a lot of things on earth that would trend towards more than just wood stuff.
 
I remember thinking that bringing that member of the Ordo who is great at turning unnoticed would be a good idea. She wants to help and can stay under the radar.
 
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Not a lot of votes. I'd ask if something was unclear, but I've been doing this for long enough to know what's going on. Pure write in options tend to lead to choice paralyses. Sorry about that guys, I was in a rush with Chrismas stuff
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 25, 2023 at 11:49 AM, finished with 22 posts and 2 votes.
  • [X] Tiffanny and Lydia
    -[X] Isabella and some Five Court agents rent rooms in a hotel and act unsuspicious and unconnected to you in case you need backup
    [X] Lydia, Tiffany, Isabela
    -[X] Ask Murphy for contacts with LVPD
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firefrog600 said:
I doubt it simply cause there are a lot of things on earth that would trend towards more than just wood stuff.
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Wood being present wouldn't necessarily imply pure primacy of obvious spirits. Things like earth elementals being exposed to wood energy would become livelier because that's what wood is beyond the obvious.

Though I would point out that DF earth has a lot of entities that work around life energy and abstract wood/life themes.

The fey courts for example are about natural wilds and are elementals of aspects of mortal souls. Which are solid wood concepts for exalted. Every vampire type works on moving around life energy, with the phobophages doing of all types doing so in a particularly on brand way, too.

So even independent of things like heavy life saturation making other things more active DF earth is dominated by what're arguably wood dominate entities.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Wood being present wouldn't necessarily imply pure primacy of obvious spirits. Things like earth elementals being exposed to wood energy would become livelier because that's what wood is beyond the obvious.

Though I would point out that DF earth has a lot of entities that work around life energy and abstract wood/life themes.

The fey courts for example are about natural wilds and are elementals of aspects of mortal souls. Which are solid wood concepts for exalted. Every vampire type works on moving around life energy, with the phobophages doing of all types doing so in a particularly on brand way, too.

So even independent of things like heavy life saturation making other things more active DF earth is dominated by what're arguably wood dominate entities.
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In fairness winter is also about entropy or at least some of the stuff is.

Edit: Also as far as I know there's basically infinite shit in the nevernever plenty of which is like directly contrary to life stuff. Like fuck Hades also all the pantheons and shit. Even if their not much explored cause their explicitly not allowed to act at least in the normal world.
 
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firefrog600 said:
In fairness winter is also about entropy or at least some of the stuff is.

Edit: Also as far as I know there's basically infinite shit in the nevernever plenty of which is like directly contrary to life stuff. Like fuck Hades also all the pantheons and shit. Even if their not much explored cause their explicitly not allowed to act at least in the normal world.
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The Nevernever is the spirt realm, it is connected to places other than earth, for all it is very hard to travel to them.
 
[X] Tiffanny and Lydia
-[X] Isabella and some Five Court agents rent rooms in a hotel and act unsuspicious and unconnected to you in case you need backup
-[X] Ask Olivia if she would assist in the recon and target acquisition.
 
BronzeTongue said:
This whole universe is Creation, not just earth, and if it's inheriting from exalted then that suggests the elemental poles may have some role. What if earth is more magical because it's sitting on one of them with the others being on opposite corners of the physical universe?

Which could also explain the gates being here, the primary armies defending reality being here, and vast gods poking around the neighborhood. Whatever pillar DF!earth is either the outermost one relative to the wyld now, or each pole has a gate and we only see the local one. As opposed to every planet being an entry point.

If this tenuous line of reasoning is close to correct then I'm tempted to further speculate that it's the pole of wood. Dresden keeps calling magic the power of life after all, and a lot of things are livelier than they should be.
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It could also be that Earth / Solar system is the remnant of previous Ages, with some stuff surviving in it and in its adjacent realms. The other stuff is more original.
 
firefrog600 said:
In fairness winter is also about entropy or at least some of the stuff is.

Edit: Also as far as I know there's basically infinite shit in the nevernever plenty of which is like directly contrary to life stuff. Like fuck Hades also all the pantheons and shit. Even if their not much explored cause their explicitly not allowed to act at least in the normal world.
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No it isn't, not really. WoJ is that the fey are essentially elemental spirits of the components of the human soul/mind. Winter isn't entropy, it's hungry. The difference between Winter and Summer is the difference between instinct and intuition, calculation and inspiration. Another way to draw the line is the as inhumane expressions of the extremes of mortal reaction to satisfaction and deprivation. Winter claims to be cold logic, but even in that can be excessively and pointlessly cruel for the sake of their own satisfaction. Summer claims to be passion, and cares about the higher order fruits of peace and plenty, but are given to irrational extremes of emotion and excess within their indulgences.

And again, being the life pole wouldn't mean that no other entities are present. Reality is a mix of all of them everywhere; it would mark most things, but not displace them. Things running around feeding on the products of life; living, moving, feeling things that strive forward.

Death also doesn't have a separate element at this level. Killing, eating, and dying are part of life*.

It's entirely possible I'm wrong, but Hades being around or Genus Loci being present on earth don't actually demonstrate that. Especially when pretty much every faction that matters on earth and the reaches of the nevernever closest to it is in some way playing with Wood's tools.

*Which is incidentally is a distinction Butcher also seems to draw with necromancy:

Where is the thin gray line between necromancy and ectomancy? What is the most an ectomancer can legally do?

The thing about ectomancers is he is not actually doing anything that's anywhere close to necromancy, an ectomancer is working with, communicating with an energy field that happens to be shaped like a human being and to have a human's memories. Necromancy is actually using life force and doing things with it, it's not the same thing at all. It's one of those things that could edge over real quick and you could cover necromancy with ectomancy really good so it's something the wardens are still suspicious about but it's not something that they just go- I mean talking to ghosts is one of the most common things you can do in the supernatural world, that's why seances are a thing
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Cite.
 
BronzeTongue said:
No it isn't, not really. WoJ is that the fey are essentially elemental spirits of the components of the human soul/mind. Winter isn't entropy, it's hungry. The difference between Winter and Summer is the difference between instinct and intuition, calculation and inspiration. Another way to draw the line is the as inhumane expressions of the extremes of mortal reaction to satisfaction and deprivation. Winter claims to be cold logic, but even in that can be excessively and pointlessly cruel for the sake of their own satisfaction. Summer claims to be passion, and cares about the higher order fruits of peace and plenty, but are given to irrational extremes of emotion and excess within their indulgences.

And again, being the life pole wouldn't mean that no other entities are present. Reality is a mix of all of them everywhere; it would mark most things, but not displace them. Things running around feeding on the products of life; living, moving, feeling things that strive forward.

Death also doesn't have a separate element at this level. Killing, eating, and dying are part of life*.

It's entirely possible I'm wrong, but Hades being around or Genus Loci being present on earth don't actually demonstrate that. Especially when pretty much every faction that matters on earth and the reaches of the nevernever closest to it is in some way playing with Wood's tools.

*Which is incidentally is a distinction Butcher also seems to draw with necromancy:


Cite.
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I'mma note winter doesn't claim to be pure logic Mab mostly claims that about herself. But, we and even she knows for a fact that isn't true of the whole court. Given of course from Mab's mindset she is being logical but she can only see things in certain ways she may be incapable of thinking things from certain view points which would arguably be more logical.

If you can find it and I know this is stretching there's a word of god that the black staff which we believe is mother winters walking stick radiates the end of things and stuff from it and isn't good for mccoy to use. I can't find the relevant wog though its not in the wog repository which hasn't been updated in years its relatively recent as in sometime last two years. Also you know pure doylist we know for a fact that dresden files isn't just a wood pillar thing in canon and has other symbolic shit surrounding it. Mind you could make it so in this quest of course. Also not saying winter is just death your absolutely right about the elemental thing I'm saying its not just that.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Hades is/was a holding space for the dead, those have to be relatively close so the dead can get there.
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Though ngl this is a weird take since your basically inferring this is how soul traffic works. Like I'm fine with the interpretation but like you say it so matter of fact thats how souls work. Wouldn't heaven and the various afterlives be easy to traverse to then? Like Valhalla doesn't seem an easy place to travel given fuck it might be heaven at least isn't. But, by the soul logic that can be justified by angels delivering souls to heaven and being the delivery guys.
 
firefrog600 said:
Though ngl this is a weird take since your basically inferring this is how soul traffic works. Like I'm fine with the interpretation but like you say it so matter of fact thats how souls work. Wouldn't heaven and the various afterlives be easy to traverse to then? Like Valhalla doesn't seem an easy place to travel given fuck it might be heaven at least isn't. But, by the soul logic that can be justified by angels delivering souls to heaven and being the delivery guys.
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That is assuming heaven is an accessible part of the Nevernever which it does not seem to be. Hades famously has Orpheus who almost managed to bring Eurydice back from the land of the dead, but when Dresden contemplates getting on a train in Ghost Story it is treated with a certain finality. I'd say there are Afterlives and Afterlives and the rules are not consistent between them. Molly does not really know more, but Lydia can say that her father's domain too held the near dead, not those who have gone Beyond.
 
DragonParadox said:
That is assuming heaven is an accessible part of the Nevernever which it does not seem to be. Hades famously has Orpheus who almost managed to bring Eurydice back from the land of the dead, but when Dresden contemplates getting on a train in Ghost Story it is treated with a certain finality. I'd say there are Afterlives and Afterlives and the rules are not consistent between them. Molly does not really know more, but Lydia can say that her father's domain too held the near dead, not those who have gone Beyond.
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This seems a fair interpretation even in canon.
 
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