Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Sort of interested in the interactions between lore of flesh and Inner Darkness Unchained. Inner Darkness Unchained obviously doesn't use and isn't limited by biology, but most Fomor transformations do have a fairly fleshy theme to them.
 
Hmm, if Tiffany-Lash could work with insects than Molly may be able to help dealing with the Masquerade. If it's possible to make an amulet storing the "battle form" than you can just bind it to chosen bearers so that they can ride them in combat while their body swaps with the insect in the amulet.

Were-murdermachine amulet.
 
1) Dont make offers you dont want people to take.
I replied to this already. "Don't expect her to take us up on this" =/= "don't want her to take us up on this". It's important to make an offer, even if I expect it to be rejected in favor of other options.
2) No it isnt.
The Denarians are still restricted by both the Accords(which they signed) and the Rules of Heaven which have limits to how much power they are willing to display in public without freeing Heaven to take countermeasures, Mouse specifically scares Nicodemus, and Michael literally lives in the same city and visits Harry.

By contrast, Last Station is somewhere they can cut loose more comfortably, and I've seen what a Denarian feeling frisky can do with the right host. Its not pretty.
Last Station in particular shares particular geographic vulnerabilities by virtue of being underground.

By putting Lash on the surface, we leverage those elements of the Rules that Heaven enforces that prevents Nicodemus et al from doing shit like hulking out on live TV or attacking the White House in disguise to start a new war.
Y'know, the things we know they can do.

I also think you are strongly overestimating Harry's defenses. Firebombing his place works, we know that. Sending a couple of hit squads with machine guns would likely work too.
As far as I know, there's nothing in the Rules about maintaining the Masquerade. Nicodemius Archleone could theoretically descend on the shadowy wings in the middle of Times Square and Magog could fight our shintai form on prime TV, and it wouldn't violate the rules.

And it's also arguable how much more free they would be when attacking Last Station.
3)That is not true, any more than anyone has tried to attack Molly blatantly with supernatural powers in public
We havent seen anyone come rampaging into school, have we?
So far, yes. Broken Seeker and his minions were pretty damn blatant, I want to point out.
We're not leaving her on the street.
Harry has lived with her in his head for three years; he can and will put her up for a month at least, and we can make new arrangements starting from January.
We are, essentially, forcing her to do that, if we don't make an offer. I have very strong feelings about "yeah, it was your completely free choice of X or death" types of chicanery.
 
I replied to this already. "Don't expect her to take us up on this" =/= "don't want her to take us up on this". It's important to make an offer, even if I expect it to be rejected in favor of other options.
I will rephrase: Dont make offers you cannot guarantee you can keep.
This is the supernatural world. People dont casually make offers here; your word matters. And while Lash has lived with Harry long enough to assimilate some human custom, she still has hundreds of years of supernatural custom.

As far as I know, there's nothing in the Rules about maintaining the Masquerade. Nicodemius Archleone could theoretically descend on the shadowy wings in the middle of Times Square and Magog could fight our shintai form on prime TV, and it wouldn't violate the rules.

And it's also arguable how much more free they would be when attacking Last Station.
So why hasnt he?

Nicodemus literally tried to kill Chicago and a chunk of the Midwest four years ago in Death Masks by starting a magical bioplague using the Shroud of Turin, when he could have done it a lot faster and easier by walking into one of the missile bases in Montana or Wyoming, slaughtering the crews and launching some ICBMs. He could have solo'd them himself; still can.

Ergo, there are Rules restricting what he can do and how without drawing extraordinary Heavenly response.



They would be at least as free as they were in Small Favor. At the Shedd Aquarium, there were warform Denarians operating openly because there were no mortals or non-supernatural witnesses. A when he took the Archive to Demonreach, they had warform Denarians, custom warbeasts and armed minions all walking around openly, with sorcery in full combat use around.

So far, yes. Broken Seeker and his minions were pretty damn blatant, I want to point out.
No they were not.
They were shapeshifted into normal animals, and explicitly stayed in openly civilian areas because it would force us to also stay lowprofile.

We are, essentially, forcing her to do that, if we don't make an offer. I have very strong feelings about "yeah, it was your completely free choice of X or death" types of chicanery.
That is not true.
Harry is the default. She was already living with him until a couple months ago.
 
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So why hasnt he?

Nicodemus literally tried to kill Chicago and a chunk of the Midwest four years ago in Death Masks by starting a magical bioplague using the Shroud of Turin, when he could have done it a lot easier by walking into one of the missile bases in Montana or Wyoming and launching some ICBMs.
Because ICBMs actually have more protections than that in general*. That much magic in the area is likely to turn the computers launching them to scrap. He would almost certainly have coincidental opposition Knight based or otherwise. And a miliary base might actually manage to kill him not likely, but Nick only goes for long odds on big payouts.

*Just the people on base can't launch nukes without higher authority unless the cold war is running super dam hot. One of the reasons given for kidnapping the Archive was getting nucellar codes.
 
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Because ICBMs actually have more protections than that in general. That much magic in the area is likely to turn the computers launching them to scrap. He would almost certainly have coincidental opposition. And a miliary base might actually manage to kill him not likely, but Nick only goes for long odds on big payouts.
1) Denarian magic does not fuck with technology unless they want it to. Because motherfucking Denarians.

2) A Denarian under a veil can literally walk in and out of a military base unseen; we've seen the Ursiel!Genoskwa do it, and its a nine foot tall freak of nature with a one-ton plus warform.

3) Nicodemus is literally unkillable unless you strangle him with the noose around his neck or stab him with a Sword.
Military cant do shit.
Like I've said, there are clear restrictions he appears to be operating under. Until and unless he tries to cheat

4) This is where I remind you that in Dresdenverse canon, Nicodemus Archleone and his wife were responsible for the Black Death that killed a third of Europe.
Opposition does not necessarily work against someone like him.
 
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I will rephrase: Dont make offers you cannot guarantee you can keep.
This is the supernatural world. People dont casually make offers here; your word matters. And while Lash has lived with Harry long enough to assimilate some human custom, she still has hundreds of years of supernatural custom.
We can keep this promise.
Nicodemus literally tried to kill Chicago and a chunk of the Midwest four years ago in Death Masks by starting a magical bioplague using the Shroud of Turin, when he could have done it a lot faster and easier by walking into one of the missile bases in Montana or Wyoming, slaughtering the crews and launching some ICBMs. He could have solo'd them himself; still can.

Ergo, there are Rules restricting what he can do and how without drawing extraordinary Heavenly response.
Perhaps he wanted to do it this way for some reason, like inflicting maximum suffering. Perhaps it correlated with some other plan of his. Perhaps it isn't about body count at all, but a state of mind. Perhaps, it would have provoked a response of the Knightly kind. There are many options. Deriving "Rules include masquerade maintenance" from such thin evidence is a really, really big leap.
That is not true.
Harry is the default. She was already living with him until a couple months ago.
Again, this is sophistry of the worst kind "you stay here, or on the street with zero support or resources, while being a target" is not a meaningful choice. She had no choice in staying with him.

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3) Nicodemus is literally unkillable unless you strangle him with the noose around his neck. Military cant do shit.
MIlitary can brick the missiles.
 
To be clear - I am fully prepared for her to take us on our offer. I just don't expect her to. It's still an important gesture.
Being prepared to help facilitate a bad decision we prompt doesn't seem that helpful.

Since the Will of Kakuri stuff we have vastly improved the protections.
The problem is that our defense improvements aren't enough to take serious supernatural assaults made by people who don't have to give shit about being subtle and can pick their battles. It's better than nothing, but I don't trust it to stand up to anyone with a name worth knowing.

We're not leaving her on the street.
Harry has lived with her in his head for three years; he can and will put her up for a month at least, and we can make new arrangements starting from January.
Do you think the Ordo would be freaked out by having a place too close to Dresden?

If we end up buying property going small would make sense if it's just for Lash's sake (and possibly as a safe house and similar minor uses) but if they would be comfortable with it we could save some money by making one larger purchase.

… granted they would probably dislike Lash at first, but baby steps.
Hmm, if Tiffany-Lash could work with insects than Molly may be able to help dealing with the Masquerade. If it's possible to make an amulet storing the "battle form" than you can just bind it to chosen bearers so that they can ride them in combat while their body swaps with the insect in the amulet.

Were-murdermachine amulet.
That seems like an idea with a lot of moving parts, it'd probably be expensive to get each piece in place.

Ergo, there are Rules restricting what he can do and how without drawing extraordinary Heavenly response.
Might just be that he's not willing to eat the interference and retaliation of the rest of the supernatural world.

If he pisses in the public pool everyone would be pissed at him and have cause to do something about it since he'd be messing with their business.

I will rephrase: Dont make offers you cannot guarantee you can keep.
?

We can totally support the offer, we just can't make it reasonably safe. For the purposes of what we'd be promising here losing wouldn't be the same as oathbreaking.

Edit: error
 
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Just the people on base can't launch nukes without higher authority unless the cold war is running super dam hot. One of the reasons given for kidnapping the Archive was getting nucellar codes.
1) Denarian magic does not fuck with technology unless they want it to. Because motherfucking Denarians.
Which is used by mortal free will.
 
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Just the people on base can't launch nukes without higher authority unless the cold war is running super dam hot. One of the reasons given for kidnapping the Archive was getting nucellar codes.
Anduriel is literally Master of Shadows.
Do you think he doesnt have them already?

No, thats not true.
The Archive was not kidnapped for nuclear codes.
Might just be that he's not willing to eat the interference and retaliation of the rest of the supernatural world.
If he pisses in the public pool everyone would be pissed at him and have cause to do something about it since he'd be messing with their business.
Could be.
But like I said, he's done this before. The Black Death, which killed a third of Europe over a hundred and fifty years, plus who knows how many people in China and Central Asia? Him and his wife.

And he certainly wasnt worried about blowback when he tried to kill off Chicago four years ago, along with a chunk of the Midwest.
 
Just the people on base can't launch nukes without higher authority unless the cold war is running super dam hot. One of the reasons given for kidnapping the Archive was getting nucellar codes.

Which is used by mortal free will.
They do have the shadow scrying from Anduriel, yes?
Also, FWIW, I wouldn't necessarily bet on being able to hold Last Station from a full-scale, no-holds-barred Denarian attack even with Molly there. If only because the only people likely to be able to contend with Denarian warforms would be Molly, and potentially Porter and/or Lash. That would still leave us facing up to 30 Denarian Warforms, plus however many squires and other servants.
 
Just the people on base can't launch nukes without higher authority unless the cold war is running super dam hot. One of the reasons given for kidnapping the Archive was getting nucellar codes.

Which is used by mortal free will.
Yeah, a lot of effort goes into those systems and subverting them with magic may be possible but it wouldn't be simple.

Especially since the Library exists here and if they have two brain cells to rub together putting whatever security they could in place to make that hard would have been at the top of their priority list once world ending weapons popped up.
 
Could be.
But like I said, he's done this before. The Black Death, which killed a third of Europe over a hundred and fifty years, plus who knows how many people in China and Central Asia? Him and his wife.

And he certainly wasnt worried about blowback when he tried to kill off Chicago four years ago, along with a chunk of the Midwest
That was "just" mass death and a lot of people wouldn't actually know what he did anyway. Breaking the masquerade is a lot more of an immediate problem for supernaturals and a lot harder to conceal his involvement in.
 
They do have the shadow scrying from Anduriel, yes?
Also, FWIW, I wouldn't necessarily bet on being able to hold Last Station from a full-scale, no-holds-barred Denarian attack even with Molly there. If only because the only people likely to be able to contend with Denarian warforms would be Molly, and potentially Porter and/or Lash. That would still leave us facing up to 30 Denarian Warforms, plus however many squires and other servants.
30 denarians with full war forms working together roll over Dresden, Mouse, and most likely Mab. It's pointless to discuss "what do we do if enemy rolls with overwhelming power" because we can't do anything. Dresden can't do anything either in this situation.
 
If all 30 denarians roll in then both Knights are going to be there as well. Likely other help too.
 
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30 denarians with full war forms working together roll over Dresden, Mouse, and most likely Mab. It's pointless to discuss "what do we do if enemy rolls with overwhelming power" because we can't do anything. Dresden can't do anything either in this situation.
30 denarians aren't really on the table, if only because the church does keep some out of circulation.

The more reasonable numbers they can bring to bear are the sort that could roll the last station, but have balked from hitting Dresden's wards.

Edit: error
 
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30 denarians with full war forms working together roll over Dresden, Mouse, and most likely Mab. It's pointless to discuss "what do we do if enemy rolls with overwhelming power" because we can't do anything. Dresden can't do anything either in this situation.
Despite being taken by surprise, the Archive was taking 8 to 10 Denarians until she got punked by sedative gas, and she's supposed to be Winter Lady-tier.
Mab eats them alive.

Nicodemus is explicitly scared of Mouse. We see it in Small Favor.
Mouse is part-Temple Dog, and has Power in a very focused area against magical opposition; in defense of his home and his chosen people, he's terrifying.

There's a reason why Mab greets him with more respect than she greets Dresden.
And why he gets to threaten the Leanansidhe.
 
30 denarians with full war forms working together roll over Dresden, Mouse, and most likely Mab. It's pointless to discuss "what do we do if enemy rolls with overwhelming power" because we can't do anything.
Not entirely true. Molly can do some pretty destructive things that could take out at least a chunk of Denarians by starting to ferry soldiers and explosives from Five Courts at maximum speed. Though Last Station still would be toast.

There's a reason why Mab greets him with more respect than she greets Dresden.
And why he gets to threaten the Leanansidhe.
Mouse is also much more polite than Harry.
 
Might as well talk about the Denarians setting fire to Harry's apartment which they can totally do. I don't know why you think it is so much safer then the Last Station which has active guards, kill zones and safe rooms.
 
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VOTE
[X] Plan Brass Tacks
-[X] Offer something
--[X] Some money to get herself on her feet
--[X] Some supplies to get her started
--[X] Documents to legalize her identity
-[X] Make a point to socialize with her regularly over the next month at minimum.
[X] STUNT: You catch Harry's eye "She can stay with you right?" At his affirmative nod, you sigh in relief and take over the conversation, turning to his companion. "I cant currently offer you a place to stay yet" you begin apologetically. "Last Station's got better fortifications" you ignore Harry's strangled squawk of protest " But it doesnt have Mouse. And I dont think Last Station's location is secure enough to guarantee your security against your clone-mother's associates" you ignore Charity mouthing clone-mother silently in favor of tossing your car keys at Harry. "Also, there may have been complications if I'd offered Sanctuary as an option" As you pause, Lash - Tiffany- interjects "Complications?". To her question, you waggle a finger at the floor."Rules lawyers". At her look of comprehension, you continue, even as she helps herself to more gingerbread. "There's a couple labelled bags in Rider's trunk; some sets of clothes, personal items, groceries, burner phone, that sort of thing. Some cash in there as well. Rider can drive you both back to Harry's apartment. We'll work on getting you documents after Christmas. Anything you want to talk about tonight?
 
Might as well talk about the Denarians setting fire to Harry's apartment which they can totally do. I don't know why you think it is so much safer then the Last Station which has active guards, kill zones and safe rooms.
Because with Harry, Mouse and Lash present, arson is hard.
Dresden's home was only burned down in Changes after he'd taken down his wards to save the Feds from running into his defenses and dying.
 
Because with Harry, Mouse and Lash present, arson is hard.
Dresden's home was only burned down in Changes after he'd taken down his wards to save the Feds from running into his defenses and dying.
And with The Vamps, security bots, Ghouls, Porter, Lash and whatever other help comes to help with a blatant attack attacking Last Station is also hard.

Also we really need to get around to bringing in a security team from our kingdom.
Anduriel is literally Master of Shadows.

Do you think he doesnt have them already?
Yes I do in fact think that he doesn't have them. I don't know all the security on them for obvious reasons, but I know that they change regularly and that the Library at least exists enough to include very basic information security. Also do you think that the codes are just a password or something? They are multi factor. Come on expect more security than your bank account has.
 
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Again, this is sophistry of the worst kind "you stay here, or on the street with zero support or resources, while being a target" is not a meaningful choice. She had no choice in staying with him.
She can easily get her own money.

She can heal someone, make them look better, give them any skill (worth 10 freebies, which can buy a lot), give them a supernatural ability like reading people's emotions from her own arsenal and various more tricks.

She's a demon meant to seduce a very stubborn Wizard into damnation, seducing normal people into giving her money is utterly trivial.

Edit: given her skill she could probably scam her way into money and a place to stay without actually offering a fair deal too, but I was assuming she would actually offer something in return.
 
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