Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 · Sep 12, 2023

Yog said:
on the other hand, making her trust us is a tall order.

Dont need trust, just for them to be willing to talk in the future, and stay out our way now.
Give them time, and they will probably talk with the White Council and figure out who we are; they're allies in the ongoing war.
Trust is a stretch goal; great to have, but not essential under these circumstances.

Arianna Ortega's accident will probably burnish our credentials with them.
And to be honest, having them trust a strange supernatural on first encounter would probably raise alarm bells up the chain of command about their being compromised.

DragonParadox said:
Like it says in the update, just above the vote yes, they are all Creatures of Darkness, indeed not only does DPE apply but also MiS as they are beings capable subject to frenzy due to the dark powers they host, though that is not likely to come up in this conversation. They do not look in the mood to obey Molly

Just as well.
Obedience would also raise questions with their bosses.
Such a thing as succeeding too much

uju32 · Sep 12, 2023

Iron Roby said:
It's not like she doesn't know what they would be testing for, and Red Court vamps have easy tells to test for with something holy.

If she thinks it would make it less likely she has to hurt innocent people, it's plenty plausible. And failing to convince them without a test (it would make sense for that to be a more difficult roll) - meaning needing to fight/escape or simply just having it take longer are also impediments.

She doesnt know what they are testing for.
Red Court vamps arent Blampires. Holy water does work on them, but garlic doesnt, and symbols of faith, relics of faith and the holy are a maybe depending on the Rampire, the faith of the wielder and the occasion.

Holy objects dont necessarily mean Christian objects either; Dresden has wielded his pentacle against them, I think.
Catholicism is dominant in Mexico, but the Fellowship is ecumenical and multiracial, because the victims are. There are a fair number of religions and faiths out there, and we dont know how their relics or symbols react to Molly.

This is no venue for Molly to want to experiment, a couple hours before a pitched battle.

Iron Roby · Sep 12, 2023

uju32 said:
Holy objects dont necessarily mean Christian objects either; Dresden has wielded his pentacle against them, I think.

Exactly. Nothing in Dresden Files has made it seem like Holy symbols and faith are not interchangeable in such effects, at least when it comes to beings inherently vulnerable to Holy (which you either are to all or you aren't).

And we might end up in a pitched conflict now, if we overplay our hand in dominance games.

powergoat · Sep 12, 2023

uju32 said:
There are a fair number of religions and faiths out there, and we dont know how their relics or symbols react to Molly.

While there is always room for uncertainty with unknowns, there is no real precedent for an infernal exalt to be repelled by any generic holy symbol that would ward off a red. There are some defense charms of the night realm in which 'holy' attacks can penetrate, but we don't have any of those.

BronzeTongue · Sep 12, 2023

uju32 said:
The quote wasnt since we entered Leon, it was since we entered Mexico.

I was reading that as the forces in the area were operating in rolling well, not a coordinated effort. I can see your point though.

uju32 said:
It is plausible for an organization that we know is more than two hundred years old as of the events of canon Changes, especially if they have access to any minor talents with sensory or predictive capabilities. Especially if they are half-Reds.
Or even someone got a heads up from an oracular spirit.

The problem I have with this is that it requires them to have nation spanning coverage accurate enough to pick us up pretty accurately but not actually determine we're not a big league vamp. Guys that old are known quantities or should be if they're seriously running that scale of scanning.

The divinatory angle is highly unlikely in my opinion. The crown has failed against more tightly bound planning than we engaged in here.

Assuming for a moment they weren't warned in advance and they do somehow have a detection grid across the country the scenario you're describing sounds roughly like this to me:

1) Organization sees a ping on their evil radar big enough to look like a major vampire, but for some reason they can't distinguish it from the creatures their group exists to fight.

2) It hangs around an airport alone.

2a) In the time it takes us to get in and out of the server room they make and commit to a plan without any further information, and scramble their people to do so at the risk of exposing them to hostile observation.

3) The big signature teleports 400 km into their perfectly positioned team/the net of agents they've activated across the country for this.

4) They enact their cunning plan, having 6 people with guns and holy weapons jump the big dot while surrounded by innocent people. Innocent people who are mana/health potions as far as the typical red vamp is concerned even if they don't care about it on an ethical level.

Even if they're certain they have the perfect weapon to end this in a single attack talking to us would have been a stupid idea.

This is a lot of rapid decision making with very little information and significant commitment to the follow through. If they reacted like this to an actual lord of the outer night I'd expect the red court to notice the activity and kill everyone involved.

The competence levels vary wildly and in weird places, and their risk assessments make very little sense. Rushed plans are one thing, but I have a hard time believing that an organization like St. Giles would deliberately put themselves in this sort of situation.

It seems more reasonable that we've just run into something they already had cooking, possibly arriving just ahead of an alert sent to everyone in the region.

Yog · Sep 12, 2023

[X] Explain you aren't a one of the red court
-[X] Attempt to convince them that you aren't something that feeds on mortals and today you're just making use of the airport, not going after the people in it.
-[X] [Stunt]: Snorting, Molly all but rolls her eyes " You should get your eyes checked. Dark I may be, but a leech I most certainly am not. A catfish, maybe a heron depending on your metaphor, but not one of those squirming little creatures."
—[X] Taking a more serious tone, she continues "Out of sincerely held respect for your organization I will allow you to test my nature with items of whatever faith you follow, but you of all people should know that choice makes monsters of men before nature does. I have no taste for and even less interest in ending mortal lives"

uju32 · Sep 12, 2023

Iron Roby said:
Exactly. Nothing in Dresden Files has made it seem like Holy symbols and faith are not interchangeable in such effects, at least when it comes to beings inherently vulnerable to them (which you either are to all or you aren't). Both Christianity, Dresden's elementalist occultism or whatever you call it, even Sanya's atheism - that's more than enough samples to not be worried over nothing.

And we might end up in a pitched conflict now, if we overplay our hand in dominance games.

That they have an effect? Sure.
I am much less confident about what said effect is likely to be. We know what Christian holy water does, and presumably blessed oil would do much the same thing.

How would illumination from a holy Zoroastrian flame react for example? The bones of a Buddhist saint?
It would be very inconvenient if a spirits showed up and started screaming bloody murder, like with Mouse's special bark.

powergoat said:
While there is always room for uncertainty with unknowns, there is no real precedent for an infernal exalt to be repelled by any generic holy symbol that would ward off a red. There are some defense charms in which 'holy' attacks can penetrate, but we don't have any of those.

Repelled? No.
What if you start to glow in response? Or whatever they pulled begins to scream at you?
It doesnt have to harm us to wreck our mission.

BronzeTongue said:
I was reading that as the forces in the area were operating in rolling well, not a coordinated effort. I can see your point though.

Fair enough.

BronzeTongue said:
The problem I have with this is that it requires them to have nation spanning coverage accurate enough to pick us up pretty accurately but not actually determine we're not a big league vamp. Guys that old are known quantities or should be if they're seriously running that scale of scanning.

The divinatory angle is highly unlikely in my opinion. The crown has failed against more tightly bound planning than we engaged in here.

Assuming for a moment they weren't warned in advance and they do somehow have a detection grid across the country the scenario you're describing sounds roughly like this to me:

1) Organization sees a ping on their evil radar big enough to look like a major vampire, but for some reason they can't distinguish it from the creatures their group exists to fight.

2) It hangs around an airport alone.

2a) In the time it takes us to get in and out of the server room they make and commit to a plan without any further information, and scramble their people to do so at the risk of exposing them to hostile observation.

3) The big signature teleports 400 km into their perfectly positioned team/the net of agents they've activated across the country for this.

4) They enact their cunning plan, having 6 people with guns and holy weapons jump the big dot while surrounded by innocent people. Innocent people who are mana/health potions as far as the typical red vamp is concerned even if they don't care about it on an ethical level.

Even if they're certain they have the perfect weapon to end this in a single attack talking to us would have been a stupid idea.
This is a lot of rapid decision making with very little information and significant commitment to the follow through. If they reacted like this to an actual lord of the outer night I'd expect the red court to notice the activity and kill everyone involved.

The competence levels vary wildly and in weird places, and their risk assessments make very little sense. Rushed plans are one thing, but I have a hard time believing that an organization like St. Giles would deliberately put themselves in this sort of situation.

It seems more reasonable that we've just run into something they already had cooking, possibly arriving just ahead of an alert sent to everyone in the region.

1)Prophecy or precog or an oracular spirit.
It could be as simple as "One of these <<NUMBER>>locations will see a major dark figure of significance" or "an international airport will be the scene of a major event involving a Red Court elder" to see multiple covert action teams activated in multiple cities.

Its not like its unprecedented; the Knights all coming to Chicago in Death Masks was explicitly the result of a prophecy.
We see Lydia in Grave Peril: a minor talent with a gift for prophecy called Cassandra's Tears.

Furthermore, we know that Hannah Ascher and her talent for Senior Council-tier fire magic is currently uninfested by Lasciel and working with the Fellowship right now, so its hardly unprecedented for magic users to end up in the Fellowship.

2)I think @firefrog600 was the one who pointed out that Fellowship members arent exactly trained soldiers.
The people who make them dont select them for their ability to run an urban guerilla campaign. They are self-selected for their ability to resist the Hunger and survive the enmity of the Red Court, not their military competence or ability to follow orders.

Survival does tend to select for competence, mind. But whether these guys have been around long enough to learn that competence, I cant say.

Yog · Sep 12, 2023

So, a thought - maybe lean into "you can be mistaken for a jade court bodhisattva" thing?

Can Rhampires levitate while in their skinsuits? If not, why not hover a bit to prove our point? And finish it all off with a MiS trigger to demonstrate our benevolence.

uju32 · Sep 12, 2023

Yog said:
So, a thought - maybe lean into "you can be mistaken for a jade court bodhisattva" thing?
Can Rhampires levitate while in their skinsuits? If not, why not hover a bit to prove our point? And finish it all off with a MiS trigger to demonstrate our benevolence.

Not many people know what a Jade Court boddhisattva looks like, since they are seldom outside the Far East.
These people would have no reason to know what one looks like. Its a distinction that would be lost on these people anyway, who would focus on the vampire part of that description.

Not to mention that they might assume a Jade Court elder in Mexico is here to visit the Red Court and offer them aid during their war. Which would make you an even higher-priority enemy than a Night Lord.

BronzeTongue · Sep 12, 2023

uju32 said:
1)Prophecy or precog or an oracular spirit.
It could be as simple as "One of these <<NUMBER>>locations will see a major dark figure of significance" or "an international airport will be the scene of a major event involving a Red Court elder" to see multiple covert action teams activated in multiple cities.

Its not like its unprecedented; the Knights all coming to Chicago in Death Masks was explicitly the result of a prophecy.
We see Lydia in Grave Peril: a minor talent with a gift for prophecy called Cassandra's Tears.

Furthermore, we know that Hannah Ascher and her talent for Senior Council-tier fire magic is currently uninfested by Lasciel and working with the Fellowship right now, so its hardly unprecedented for magic users to end up in the Fellowship.

The crown has shown itself to be unable to get information that detailed when we've tried to ask questions gates behind free will. I don't buy the idea that these guys can get better fidelity than that. We just saw this in action with Broken Seeker, where we couldn't ask past when a decision had to be made.

The white god I'll buy some of that from, if only because Uriel doesn't need to see the future to make useful guesses, but the white god is bullshit anyway.

On a meta level playing divination games like this is nearly as much of a headache as time travel, especially when the players have them. It seems unlikely that DP would make divinations accurate enough to do this at a level we should arguably be able to achieve.

If this is a thing we're going to need to worry about then we need to put kitbashing a mind blank item from CCoP and the Incantation of Spiritual Discretion on our priority list, because there's no reason every major player on the planet wouldn't have their own network.

Incidentally this includes the red court, which would make this whole ambush thing effectively impossible.

uju32 said:
2)I think @firefrog600 was the one who pointed out that Fellowship members arent exactly trained soldiers.
The people who make them dont select them for their ability to run an urban guerilla campaign. They are self-selected for their ability to resist the Hunger and survive the enmity of the Red Court, not their military competence or ability to follow orders.

Survival does tend to select for competence, mind. But whether these guys have been around long enough to learn that competence, I cant say.

Individual agent competence at the low level is one thing, but if the organization could be prodded to spasm like this I don't think they would have lasted this long as a coherent group capable of diplomacy.

firefrog600 · Sep 12, 2023

uju32 said:
That they have an effect? Sure.
I am much less confident about what said effect is likely to be. We know what Christian holy water does, and presumably blessed oil would do much the same thing.

How would illumination from a holy Zoroastrian flame react for example? The bones of a Buddhist saint?
It would be very inconvenient if a spirits showed up and started screaming bloody murder, like with Mouse's special bark.

Repelled? No.
What if you start to glow in response? Or whatever they pulled begins to scream at you?
It doesnt have to harm us to wreck our mission.

Fair enough.

1)Prophecy or precog or an oracular spirit.
It could be as simple as "One of these <<NUMBER>>locations will see a major dark figure of significance" or "an international airport will be the scene of a major event involving a Red Court elder" to see multiple covert action teams activated in multiple cities.

Its not like its unprecedented; the Knights all coming to Chicago in Death Masks was explicitly the result of a prophecy.
We see Lydia in Grave Peril: a minor talent with a gift for prophecy called Cassandra's Tears.

Furthermore, we know that Hannah Ascher and her talent for Senior Council-tier fire magic is currently uninfested by Lasciel and working with the Fellowship right now, so its hardly unprecedented for magic users to end up in the Fellowship.

2)I think @firefrog600 was the one who pointed out that Fellowship members arent exactly trained soldiers.
The people who make them dont select them for their ability to run an urban guerilla campaign. They are self-selected for their ability to resist the Hunger and survive the enmity of the Red Court, not their military competence or ability to follow orders.

Survival does tend to select for competence, mind. But whether these guys have been around long enough to learn that competence, I cant say.

I don't think I did not recently at least. Though it's true of course other than a handful of potential members the vast majority are not highly trained personnel.

Yog · Sep 12, 2023

But, seriously. @DragonParadox as far as Molly knows, can Red Court vampires levitate in their skin suits?

BronzeTongue · Sep 12, 2023

Yog said:
So, a thought - maybe lean into "you can be mistaken for a jade court bodhisattva" thing?

Can Rhampires levitate while in their skinsuits? If not, why not hover a bit to prove our point? And finish it all off with a MiS trigger to demonstrate our benevolence.

Not sure it would help. Even if the things Uju mentioned don't come up we'd still be claiming to be a vampire. Not being local doesn't mean these guys wouldn't hate our guts on principle anyway.

uju32 said:
Repelled? No.
What if you start to glow in response? Or whatever they pulled begins to scream at you?
It doesnt have to harm us to wreck our mission.

We just told them we're something dark, and they can sense that themselves. An item that reacts uniformly to all creatures of darkness doesn't tell them anything they don't already know; if they're so incompetent that they're fooled by their own equipment this is probably destined to explode horribly one way or another.

My guess is they're going to "test" us using anti-red items that aren't universally harmful to everyone like us, such as holy water.

Even if they do blast us with something that does damage to all CoDs the part where we don't burst out of a flesh mask to reveal a horrible bat monster is proof enough.

If they try anything more exotic than that we bounce it off our shaping defense.

uju32 · Sep 12, 2023

BronzeTongue said:
The crown has shown itself to be unable to get information that detailed when we've tried to ask questions gates behind free will. I don't buy the idea that these guys can get better fidelity than that. We just saw this in action with Broken Seeker, where we couldn't ask past when a decision had to be made.

The white god I'll buy some of that from, if only because Uriel doesn't need to see the future to make useful guesses, but the white god is bullshit anyway.

On a meta level playing divination games like this is nearly as much of a headache as time travel, especially when the players have them. It seems unlikely that DP would make divinations accurate enough to do this at a level we should arguably be able to achieve.

If this is a thing we're going to need to worry about then we need to put kitbashing a mind blank item from CCoP and the Incantation of Spiritual Discretion on our priority list, because there's no reason every major player on the planet wouldn't have their own network.

Incidentally this includes the red court, which would make this whole ambush thing effectively impossible.

=The Crown, as I understand it, works under a different set of limits. At-will activation, extreme accuracy in time and space, ignores opposition, and is undetectable by its target, but only works once for a given focus, and is exceedingly power-hungry by mortal sorcery standards, and interacts badly with free will-modulated decisions, and cant be learned.

Divination is less absolute, can be opposed by active and passive effects depending on the modality, but is much broader in scope, and can be learned. And can be repeated with the same focus.

=Divination as a thing is very much part of the setting.
Both prophecies, and at least one wizard canonically specializes in Divination Magic: the British warden Chandler, who is described by Butcher as specializing in Divination and Time magics. Which is why the White Council keep him very close.

Remember that Molly was offered the opportunity to learn Divination as one of the first seven or so Paths available in Arc 4 Post 9(with the others being Hellfire, Summoning/Warding, Oneiromancy, Healing, Shadowcasting and Alchemy). Yes, we chose to start with Alchemy, but we can learn it as soon as we get done with Alchemy, and should.

I dont expect to get access to the same sort of effects with Divination that NPCs do, though.
Whether its because it works differently for Exalts and their effects on fate just due to their intrinsic nature, whether Exalted Essence fucks with divinations, or just QM fiat.

Exalts often fuck with divination effects anyway.

Yog said:
But, seriously. @DragonParadox as far as Molly knows, can Red Court vampires levitate in their skin suits?

Rampires did not fly in canon, but you have to think that the ability exists somewhere in their charmtree in this AU.
No point looking like a man-bat and not getting some benefit out of it, you know?

fictionfan · Sep 12, 2023

[x]Yog

Yog said:
But, seriously. @DragonParadox as far as Molly knows, can Red Court vampires levitate in their skin suits?

Doesn't really make sense for them to. If they can fly it's going to be because they are monster bats using wings.

Yog · Sep 12, 2023

uju32 said:
Rampires did not fly in canon, but you have to think that the ability exists somewhere in their charmtree in this AU.
No point looking like a man-bat and not getting some benefit out of it, you know?

This is why I specified levitation and "while in the skinsuit". They canmost likely fly using wings. But can they levitate without moving? If not, this is a good way to demonstrate that we are something different.

uju32 · Sep 12, 2023

BronzeTongue said:
We just told them we're something dark, and they can sense that themselves. An item that reacts uniformly to all creatures of darkness doesn't tell them anything they don't already know; if they're so incompetent that they're fooled by their own equipment this is probably destined to explode horribly one way or another.

My guess is they're going to "test" us using anti-red items that aren't universally harmful to everyone like us, such as holy water.
Even if they do blast us with something that does damage to all CoDs the part where we don't burst out of a flesh mask to reveal a horrible bat monster is proof enough.

If they try anything more exotic than that we bounce it off our shaping defense.

Given as they dont know what we are?
We have zero basis for any idea about what the reaction is likely to be. And we have no indication that they have anything in circulation thats so granular that it only reacts to Reds, or that there is no cross-sensitivity.

What if it reacts to us as a creature of Yomi Wan?
We have zero idea about what the Fellowship's reaction to a creature of Yomi Wan would be; they could shrug, or flee, or attempt to kamikaze us, or promptly ally with the Reds to keep the hellspawn out, like we reacted upon running into Iku-Turso.

And frankly?
We are entirely too liberal with allowing random strangers test shit on us, and could well learn to be more reticent about that shit.
IMO.

Yog said:
This is why I specified levitation and "while in the skinsuit". They canmost likely fly using wings. But can they levitate without moving? If not, this is a good way to demonstrate that we are something different.

A Rampire with Investments can fly, and the Reds have had truck with demons and Outsiders for years.
A Rampire with sorcery can probably levitate.

All that implies is that you have other powers.
It doesnt say you arent a Red.
It doesnt say you arent an ally of the Reds.

OctarineShrike · Sep 12, 2023

[X]Plan Seize The Day
-[X] Explain that you are not one of the Red Court, but an enemy of theirs. Do NOT allow yourself to be tested by whatever holy things they may possess (Charisma+Etiquette; will open you up to further questioning)
--[X]Crown Question: Table of organization/membership of the Fellowship of St Giles. Focus: Current situation.
--[X]Address her by her name
--[X]Give them an email address/electronic dead drop if they want. Plus or minus St Mary's
--[X]STUNT: With more than a little whimsy, you murmur. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." At the woman's look of confusion, you add "Hamlet. Act 1 Scene 5. My English teacher loves that play." Continuing, you say "Respectfully, Ms [NAME], if you and your associates go around picking fights with unknowns at an international airport" you stress the words slightly, emphasizing your American accent in the process "on no better identification than <<feels dark>>, you will do your organization and its backers a lot more harm than good." And end up dead, you dont say, imagining the consequences if they had run into Seeker instead.

fictionfan · Sep 12, 2023

We could try and bring them in on our current hunt?

uju32 · Sep 12, 2023

fictionfan said:
We could try and bring them in on our current hunt?

1)They cant fly
2)We dont know who they are, who their commanders are, and if there are any Reds infiltrators among them

BoredMan · Sep 12, 2023

[X]Plan Seize The Day

fictionfan · Sep 12, 2023

uju32 said:
1)They cant fly
2)We dont know who they are, who their commanders are, and if there are any Reds infiltrators among them

I didn't mean the end part I don't want them within a mile of Broken Seeker. But this part. Also we have HellScry Charka going right now if there any infiltrators among them they are going to stand out like neon light to our empathy.

BoredMan · Sep 12, 2023

Meh. I don't think letting people try random magic shit on us is a sensible idea. I also want to get a mote essense back.

uju32 · Sep 12, 2023

fictionfan said:
I didn't mean the end part I don't want them within a mile of Broken Seeker. But this part. Also we have HellScry Charka going right now if there any infiltrators among them they are going to stand out like neon light to our empathy.

Nope.Hellscry picks up on possession, magic and the like.
A mundane dhampir traitor who is working for the Reds whether for money or loyalty or ambition or blackmail or whatever?
Wont show up on Hellscry.

BronzeTongue · Sep 12, 2023

uju32 said:
=The Crown, as I understand it, works under a different set of limits. At-will activation, extreme accuracy in time and space, ignores opposition, and is undetectable by its target, but only works once for a given focus, and is exceedingly power-hungry by mortal sorcery standards, and interacts badly with free will-modulated decisions, and cant be learned.

Divination is less absolute, can be opposed by active and passive effects depending on the modality, but is much broader in scope, and can be learned. And can be repeated with the same focus.

DragonParadox said:
Divination is considerably less reliable than the already not very impressive standard of the material realm

DragonParadox said:
OOC Divination has the issue of being too strong in ways that are not that fun, a narrative headache

IC the more I thought about her circumstances the more it made sense for her to be dreamseeing. She specifically saw Arctis Tor and Molly's Exaltation while dreaming not the future, not the past, events in the Nevernever as they happened that night. Plus it has more potential for future hooks relating to Molly's own nightmares and [REDACTED FOR SPOILERS]

DragonParadox said:
At the very lest I am going to have to take a serious nerf bat to it before I hand it to you guys. I do not like retroactive nerfs, I feel it cheapens the experience for the players so I want to be sure it is reasonably balanced before I let divination out of the bag.

It's been very clear from very early on that divination was getting major nerfs, and that the reasons involved are very similar to the reason the crown had additional limitations added in this area.

I see zero reason to assume this is a matter of different limits.

uju32 said:
Divination as a thing is very much part of the setting.
Both prophecies, and at least one wizard canonically specializes in Divination Magic: the British warden Chandler, who is described by Butcher as specializing in Divination and Time magics. Which is why the White Council keep him very close.

Remember that Molly was offered the opportunity to learn Divination as one of the first seven or so Paths available in Arc 4 Post 9(with the others being Hellfire, Summoning/Warding, Oneiromancy, Healing, Shadowcasting and Alchemy). Yes, we chose to start with Alchemy, but we can learn it as soon as we get done with Alchemy, and should.

I dont expect to get access to the same sort of effects with Divination that NPCs do, though.
Whether its because it works differently for Exalts and their effects on fate just due to their intrinsic nature, whether Exalted Essence fucks with divinations, or just QM fiat.

Divination barely had any sort of tactical impact on anything in the Dresden Files. Information games were definitely a thing, but nobody was looking into the future to avoid getting gassed or assassinated.

I doubt that the divination path will work like that. Giving everyone else the ability to screw with us like this and then homebrewing a limit like that doesn't seem in line with how anything else is being handled.

uju32 said:
Given as they dont know what we are?
We have zero basis for any idea about what the reaction is likely to be. And we have no indication that they have anything in circulation thats so granular that it only reacts to Reds, or that there is no cross-sensitivity.

What if it reacts to us as a creature of Yomi Wan?
We have zero idea about what the Fellowship's reaction to a creature of Yomi Wan would be; they could shrug, or flee, or attempt to kamikaze us, or promptly ally with the Reds to keep the hellspawn out, like we reacted upon running into Iku-Turso.

And frankly?
We are entirely too liberal with allowing random strangers test shit on us, and could well learn to be more reticent about that shit.
IMO.

We don't have zero basis, just something less than concrete. I doubt they're going to join up with the reds for anything at all. Their hate is way too personal.

If they're going to have that negative a reaction I don't see why they wouldn't do the exact same thing if we go with your plan.

I'm not enthused about playing test subject, but in this case I'm expecting more saint's knuckle bones than magic ray guns.

If they try anything more significant and aggressive than testing symbols of faith then we bounce it with our shaping defense. If it's direct damage then we soak what we have to and go from there. I'm a lot less concerned about that sort of thing than I am about the effects we're now basically immune to.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Avatar of Mandos

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

It seems there was some brain damage after all

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

It seems there was some brain damage after all