[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
[X] Your membership in the Order of the Cauldron and the broader plot against minor talents. Sure it had been stopped this time, but something needs to be done to allow them to organize, to keep themselves safe
Propably the most relevant and least threatening thing.
Even if we are a demonlord turning the minor talents, well the Wizards don't care to much about those.
The point of this discussion in my view is largely to convince Arthur that we're mostly on the same side so that we can subsequently work with the council on actual problems.
The treatment of minor talents is actually a politically difficult issue for the council at large, and frankly most of their leadership feels they have bigger problems right now in the form of the war. They don't want to hear about more work they need to do right now; pressing that angle doesn't advance our goals or really help the situation with people like the Ordo because we can't really push them effectively with our relationship being this new.
Discussing our conflicts primarily covers things that don't need to expend resources on and advances our attempt to lay out a friendlier relationship.
Especially since they're primarily here about the hell. Turning the intro section of this discussion into reasons to be optimistic about Molly's DIY demiurge-ery would be helpful.
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
I don't know if you didn't notice the recent update here but...
After being introduced to the Wardens, none of which match your mental list thank God, the time has come to explain what happened yesterday, to offer proof of the same, and if you are lucky gain some allies.
Because we've been being careful about it and had direct foci available. We've been stonewalled on doing stuff without them directly around. In any case that isn't the point. This can be gamed, it's to our advantage that no one knows to try or what the rules are.
Not really, like they can already very easily guess we have seriously divination powers, the details don't really matter that much. Do you think nemsis won't spread around the word of its discovery.
We are tho, we have seen what the heavy hitters can do in battlegrounds, we could literally walk through either side of that conflict. Especially if we get a few tanks from our world. The stats on those things are insane.
And its not laziness. Its an aversion to giving time to our enemies so they do more damage.
You're making generous assumptions about how they work and how they'd fight us. You're also ignoring that exalts are built to be beatable here.
Mote tapping alone makes us vulnerable to a number of tactics, which makes it a useful example of why sharing information about how your abilities work can screw you.
Right now as far as anyone can tell Molly has 18-22 dice in melee because she's almost never fought bellow that level of skill. They aren't aware she becomes mortal scale again if you press long enough.
Share how her essence/excellency mechanics work and she becomes vulnerable to targeted attacks.
The same applies to every ability anyone has. Even if a particular example can't be directly defeated its rules can be exploited and weaknesses magnified. It just takes some time and effort to make it work.
Guessing we have divination powers isn't the same as exposing data on how they work or the extent to which they reach.
Consider how we'd react if a hostile internal with the crown of eyes started messing with our business and how those tactics would change with varying levels of knowledge of their build. That's the sort of attention we'd be risking from people with significant resources to expend and no obligation to meet us in fights we can trivialize.
On the tank stuff:
exalted vs unCle sam
Generally speaking, World of Darkness games either laugh at you when you ask them for stats for military hard- ware – wrong genre, buddy – or else someone just pulls some oppressively large numbers out of their ass. Alas, given the power of the Exalted, and how new they are to the World of Darkness, and the way they don't have anybody except maybe a horrified Sidereal trying to keep them from making a big public spectacle of themselves, throwing down with the National Guard isn't really beyond the realm of plausibility.
This led some friends of mine to go look up the traits for a tank in M20 and holy shit they're unusable. It's nearly impossible for one heavy tank to so much as scratch another one. Hell, we went and dug up the traits for Huitzilopochtli, a 4th generation Baali Methuselah from a janky old book from 1994 or thereabouts. Dude has Strength 9 and Potence 9. While he was able to pick up the heavy tank, he couldn't put a dent in it otherwise. We then cloned him and threw four of him at the tank. It soloed four Methuselahs at once without suffering even a single level of damage. If you ever want to sort out the Apocalypse, just hijack a heavy tank from M20 and drive it into Malfeas. It should be able to take out the Wyrm with very little trouble. If Lucifer had one of these back at the dawn of time he could have defeated Michael and all the other angels, no sweat.
For the sake of whatever ridiculous game ends up featuring a Solar trying to blast a tank to death, here, on the opposite page, are the revised Exalted vs World of Darkness traits for military vehicles:
Tanks being OP is pretty true to life really. Modern military hardware is extremely powerful. Most people just don't realize that we past the point of being hit by a gun being a quick death over a century ago. And weapons have only gotten more powerful, and effective since then. An fact modern doctrine can include not killing people as desirable, as you can take out 3 people if the enemy is the type to try and save the guy you hit.
There are rituals and there are rituals. There are investitures and there are investitures. Greater Akuma are ascended mortal souls. Changelings who abandon their humanity are fae. White Court whampires are born human. Red Court rhampires are made from humans. Black Court vampires the same. It's not that hard to produce an immortal from a mortal, and Odin would definitely be capable of such.
1)Yes there are rituals.
Empowerment rituals generally arent free, and exact a cost that must be paid by the ritual's target, whether its by themselves or by substituting some poor victim. There is no indication any of that is true for the canon Valkyries. OR this one.
If being a Valkyrie was the equivalent of being a greater akuma of Odin, her rebellion probably wouldnt have even been possible in the first place due to how the akuma thing appears to work. She certainly wouldnt have been able to dodge him for centuries, almost a millenium, after her crime.
And if it was some sort of ritual, we would have had more evil Valkyrie running around, not just one; if Kattrin hadnt made herself a helper or helpers in almost a thousand years, someone else would have gotten the ritual from her, or paid for her to empower someone for them.
2)It really IS that hard to produce an immortal from a mortal.
Greater akuma literally sell their soul in fee simple for power to a Yama King. Black Court vampires are, best as I can tell, a different entity in the corpse of the person who used to be there with the same memories, and require, in this AU, some sort of connection to a Neverborn. Same difference with Red Court vamps, just to a different degree, and they are bound to the Red King.
The Darkhallow requires loads of setup and the sacrifice of gratuitous amounts of human life.
Odin uses soulfire to make the Einherjar, and he's the only god we know in canon that has access to it.
Thats Word of Jim.
We have nothing on his making Valkyries.
1) She was born mortal - a bastard daughter of an English priest. It's possible her mother was supernatural, but I don't get that implication
2) She was made a valkyrie. Valkyries are made.
1)Like I said, the Norse and related tribes were active up and down the coastlines of the Northern Atlantic for much of the first millenium CE, and as far west as Greenland and Newfoundland.
Her being born in what is now Sweden of an allegedly English father is in no way inconsistent with this.
Furthermore, she was called a scion of the Geat in Heorot.
The Geat in question is Beowulf, and in myth he was a hero and king of the Geats. The Dresden Files implies that Beowulf is in some way Odin, or an avatar of him.
IRL? The Geat were a northern Germanic tribe that inhabited southern Sweden and England
The Swedish dialects spoken in the areas that used to be inhabited by Geats form a distinct group, Götamål.
The earliest known surviving mention of the Geats appears in Ptolemy (2nd century AD), who refers to them as Goutai. In the 6th century, Jordanes writes of the Gautigoths and Ostrogoths (the Ostrogoths of Scandza); and Procopius refers to Gautoi. The Norse Sagas know them as Gautar; Beowulf and Widsith as Gēatas.[10]Beowulf and the Norse sagas name several Geatish kings, but only Hygelac finds confirmation in Liber Monstrorum where he is referred to as "Rex Getarum" and in a copy of Historiae Francorum where he is called "Rege Gotorum". These sources concern a raid into Frisia, ca 516, which is also described in Beowulf. C. 551, some decades after Hygelac's raid, Jordanes described the Geats as a nation which was "bold, and quick to engage in war".[11]
The Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain included many North Germanic people who were losers in the brutal tribal warfare of Scandinavia. The place-name -gate marks the site of Geatish settlement, often alongside strategically important Roman roads and nearby Visigothic and/or Jutish settlements.[12] Defeated Jutes like Hengest and his brother Horsa fled to Kent, while Geats defeated by encroaching Swedes moved to Yorkshire where they founded Gillingshire by the Tees, originally the settlement of the Geatlings.[13] It has also been suggested that East Anglia was settled by Geats at this time,[14] or by Wulfings who also came from Götaland, bringing the traditions of Beowulf with them.[15]
2)Some scions breed dominant.
See the grendelkin, who are allegedly scions of a particular War Path Bigfoot, the one who went by the name Grendel.
3)She was selected as a Valkyrie. Nothing we are told suggests she was made.
The power of Sight/Prophecy that Kattrin was dissatisfied with is something she was apparently born with, else she could have trained something new or asked for something else.
Not everyone can apparently be selected as a Valk, just like not anyone can be selected as an Einherjar.
Which is consistent with this AU, where some people have godblood in their ancestry.
And just like how in myth not every kid of Zeus can become a god like Hercules, not every scion can become a Valk.
At least, thats how it appears to work to my eye.
Just my two cents.
The more time we give to the enemies of existence the stronger they get and more damage they inflict. The faster we kill them the less damage they can do.
What does that have to do with my statement?? We don't need to spill the details on our greatest asset to be effective.
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
-[X]Use NWS well we have ATB and Empathy excellency up.
Mote tapping alone makes us vulnerable to a number of tactics, which makes it a useful example of why sharing information about how your abilities work can screw you
The same applies to every ability anyone has. Even if a particular example can't be directly defeated its rules can be exploited and weaknesses magnified. It just takes some time and effort to make it work.
If being a Valkyrie was the equivalent of being a greater akuma of Odin, her rebellion probably wouldnt have even been possible in the first place due to how the akuma thing appears to work. She certainly wouldnt have been able to dodge him for centuries, almost a millenium, after her crime.
Thats because we've gone out of our way to minimize their understanding of how our power works and how they can attempt to game or defend against it.
If for example, we didnt know about Anduriel's ability to spy through shadows OOC, he would be able to spy on us at will even
COMMENTARY
Yay list of traitors. White Council quest line open.
Now we just have to remember to use the Crown on a Warden and get the full White Council roster.
Then we can start doing parallel construction.
Or learn Divination and start using it on them one at a time.
Our hesitation to dictate names to Clippy strongly suggests we should look at making them a formal Familiar.
See if it gives them some protection to be linked more strongly to Molly.
Just 3XP, which is the same cost as an extra dot of Cyberdevils.
Noting that Michael calls Langtry a good man, even though Dresden generally has a less charitable view of him.
Interesting difference of opinions.
But we can generally trust Michael's judgement of people.
Looking sharp Artie. Cool beard.
And once again Mentor 5 is earning its keep big time.
Lol Harry.
Arthur rolls 9 dice on Charisma + Subterfuge + Intimacy, getting 7 successes.
That means that his Subterfuge is at least 3, and his Charisma is at least 3.
Not maximum human dicepool, but upper tier.
On the other hand, 12 successes on Molly's initial Perception + Empathy roll.
If we can keep this up, this is going to be a crushing series of rolls.
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
White Council basically ignores lesser talents, so us being a member of Order of Cauldron and a plot against them is unlikely to make an impression.
Soul realm will make an impression, but it is quite an unbelievable story, and not one we should begin with, I feel.
The conflicts Molly had, on the other hand, should be able to not only show her credentials, but also make inroads into Merlin taking her more seriously.
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
The general who outfoxed Emma-O? Yeah, I remember that one.
Only possible because Yama Kings physically store the souls of their greater akuma in their treasury like money. Noone else does.
And even then, the dude had to put together a heist team worthy of Oceans 11.
VOTE [X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
RATIONALE
These are all mostly public actions that we've taken, and can talk about without offending anyone or burning any bridges.
We killed the Outsiders hunting McCoy. We punted Gorfels their way. We stopped Kattrin's black magic ritual.
We killed the Walker at the Raith party in public. We went after the greater akuma with the knowledge of Chinatown's shen, and tossed the lesser akuma that survived to the Library.
The only thing we dont want to mention is Mab and Maeve's shit.
And I dont think we have to specifically write-in that Molly isnt going to blab Mab's business without her permission unless its absolutely necessary; thats just common sense and courtesy.
And a demonstration of our ability to keep confidences.
How do you figure that learning of the crown would make him receptive? What makes you think you know what his reaction will be? Learning that Molly can instantly nab your secrets from thin air could very well have the opposite effect.
Tanks being OP is pretty true to life really. Modern military hardware is extremely powerful. Most people just don't realize that we past the point of being hit by a gun being a quick death over a century ago. And weapons have only gotten more powerful, and effective since then. An fact modern doctrine can include not killing people as desirable, as you can take out 3 people if the enemy is the type to try and save the guy you hit.
The fact that the tanks couldn't kill each other when just sitting there blasting away tells me the rules weren't even play tested, or at least weren't play tested by anyone who'd actually been near a tank before.
They have lots of layered defenses that are good about survivability, especially of the crew, but contemporary tanks not being able to hurt each other at all is ridiculous.
Even past that one tank being able to stop the apocalypse, and incidentally eventually kill any single exalt that doesn't have tech control charms, doesn't make for a good story most of the time even if you do want to go with the mortal tech > anything else plotline.
If they come at Molly it won't be with an army looking to resolve everything in one scene. They aren't stupid, fights that favor us aren't the only way to resolve things.
No, it makes it more manageable. Broken Seeker certainly didn't have any problem finding a way to make us come to him at a time and place of his choosing.
If we turn on god mode, outthink everybody, out produce them, then force a confrontation at a time and place of our choosing we would win. Then we'd have consequences to deal with, but we'd win that fight.
You're dismissing how our enemies get a say in this though. We're not taking about video game grade AI here.
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
[X] The conflicts you have had so far, including against Outsiders, make it clear that you are on the same side as the White Council in the broadest sense
How do you figure that learning of the crown would make him receptive? What makes you think you know what his reaction will be? Learning that Molly can instantly nab your secrets from thin air could very well have the opposite effect
We explain to him that we used that power he is worried about to find traitors. If we need be we call on winter to vouch for us. Spending a favour on cleasing the white council is well worth it.
No, it makes it more manageable. Broken Seeker certainly didn't have any problem finding a way to make us come to him at a time and place of his choosing.
My point is that we shouldn't let a fear or enemies learning of our abilities stop us from being proactive. Thats the same as not having them. If for example tell the merlin here, we get an action next turn that we clean up the council. But if we don't do that they get another turn to grow stronger and prepare more. We should be hitting enemies before they can make strategies for us.
We explain to him that we used that power he is worried about to find traitors. If we need be we call on winter to vouch for us. Spending a favour on cleasing the white council is well worth it.
That doesn't mean much. What else did we use the Crown for? What will we use the Crown for? Just because we used it in a way that benefits them this time doesn't get rid of suspicion by itself.
Spending a favor on that would be extremely wasteful considering we should be able to pull it off without Winter. Also fey aren't exactly trustworthy even if they can't lie directly. When Mab moves she often has more than one goal.
Why would you make that assumption?
NPCs respond to threat level. Their response to the threat of Harry Dresden, 30-something year old mortal wizard is going to be very different from their response to Molly Carpenter, apparent unbound archdevil.
-Combat Excellencies last for (Essence) turns at a time. Not scenelong.
-Teleporting to our Hell is a Wits + Occult roll, not something thats automatic.
If you're being debuffed by a poison, magic wards, wound penalties or the like, shit gets real quick.
Ditto if you've already used up your time in your Hell for the month.
The Denarians can escalate as well. And the Fallen are on a first name basis with Lucifer.
Wanna deal with a couple battalions of hell-demons? Or a Greater Herald of Tophet-equivalent?
We dont have any War charms in our charmset, so we cant extend any protection against some of the exotic shit either.
This is not Westeros. This is modern Earth.
And Molly is not an orphaned scion of a noble house in a medieval setting where there is no supreme Creator God.
The rules are different.
You would need to know what the Accords are first, but after that sure you can ask questions about it as a concept. That said you might want to get your mundane and generally available info first so you do not blow variable subject intelectus on it
Because Usum is a demon and certainly not above paranoia when it comes to gatherings of sorcerers who might want to use him (or in this case you) it should also be said: The Crown will probably scare the hell out of a bunch of people high up in the Council, especially as they have no way to a make you waste questions since they cannot see you using it to check. The moment you lay eyes on them their most shameful secrets are at your fingertips... and I mean that literally. "What is the Merlin's monst shameful secret?" is a valid question
So maybe do not share that widely is the demon's suggestion.
We can't park forces on them sufficient to block the sort of assaults rash action could provoke. Outside of that we also need infrastructure and contacts to influence the world at large, which the FCF only partially covers for. We could be reduced to a wandering monster even if we were actually invincible, which we aren't.
Compare Drakul's ability to influence the world beyond his immediate surroundings before and after the black court fell. That's a concern for us.
My point is that we shouldn't let a fear or enemies learning of our abilities stop us from being proactive. Thats the same as not having them. If for example tell the merlin here, we get an action next turn that we clean up the council. But if we don't do that they get another turn to grow stronger and prepare more. We should be hitting enemies before they can make strategies for us.
This isn't a binary choice. We can use our abilities without being a blunt instrument about it.
I'd say that we're dramatically more effective while people are ignorant about them, for similar reasons to why snipers are more effective when their victims aren't aware they're being targeted.
Your assertions here basically rest on the idea that no one can impose meaningful consequences on us, anyone around us, or exploit the rules of our abilities than you can imagine with a cursory pass.
That seems incredibly implausible to me, but especially when the reason we've avoided significant issues so far has been because we've been so careful about things.
