This is because this is directly relevant to us. With our hell now accessable, people may sneak in and curse us. To prevent this we would need some pretty powerful shaping defenses.
The shaping defense is also 20xp whereas the Craft Charm is 15xp. So if we pick the craft charm this turn, it would be harder to pick shaping def next turn due to xp if we run short.
Also we are literally going against the Red Vampire Princess, who is VERY adept with Curses. As in, kill a bloodline, either all the Reds in the World or an Entire Wizard lineage kind of curses.
Shaping defenses also mean that we can yell out our full name and dare anyone to try anything if they think they're hard enough then show them that they aren't.
Hold up, couldn't we purchase Balance of Chi right now? I mean, we can use what Brother Divsimar taught us combined with our Alchemy to balance our Chi anyways, so is it worth it to learn it as an ability? If I recall right, we were going down that route to find a way to deal with the Nightmares right? Is what we have already sufficient, or should we purchase the Ability, or just buy down the Flaw?
Molly had a huge target on her back before but after creating an entire world things are going to be even worse. The crafting charm would allow us to close some of those gaps given the right materials.
However it may be possible to find those things or have them made by experts in magic and tech from our Hell. At least in reguards to personal defences. They may or may not have needed to make anything subtle that Lydia or otherwise could bring to a casual setting, but I refuse to believe that they in the very least can't give them something to make due for now.
With a population of 5billion they should be able to manage something that we can improve even without the crafting charm.
Shaping defence however covers way to many possible blindspots and attack vectors. We have a shitload of enemies and Molly is no longer such an unknown after this "cosmic" event. People who didn't care to know before will suddenly be very interested in us one way or another.
The entire reason for Molly getting her Hell(or at least the trigger) was not having a safe place to keep her friends. If need be we can compensate with our Hell until we have the 15xp for it.
The Shaping Defence cost 20xp so if we don't get it now we might not have enough after the next arc which could screw us over badly if we get hit and fail the save in that window of several months. [X] Plan Justified Paranoia
[X] Plan Staying In Shape
[X] Plan Justified Paranoia
[X] Plan Staying In Shape
It's not glamorous, but it's what we need. Our defenses need to keep up with our importance or else bad things happen.
And hey, maybe we will get yet another discount for crafting by next time.
As I've repeatedly pointed out, its very important.
However, its not so important as to override everything else yet.
And Exalted Crafting matters to everyone in her party.
Why are we banking 2 XP when we have stuff we can get for 2 XP? First dot of Prayer Eating, second dot of Drive or Academics, a 2-dot Alchemy recipe, something?
It just feels like a waste to let the remaining 2 XP sit there. At least when we have stuff we can buy with it.
Thats being saved so that Molly can buy the Meng/Dream 1 when she finishes training it.
Which will allow her to manage her Nightmares Flaw.
Without having to spend XP for it.
A lot of very relevant concerns all around.
The crafting plan barely wins over justified paranoia for me. Vulcan is good, but if we are going for the crafting plan, we should craft this turn, and thus go all in on crafting.
We dont need Craft 5 right now; we're not yet trying to build greater Wonders and the like, if for no other reason than the fact that we probably dont have the raw materials to do so. For lesser artifacts, Craft 3 works just fine; Molly already rolls a 18 dice Craft pool given Without Honor and a 2-dice stunt; add any assistants and it balloons further.
The 7XP required to max out Craft is better employed filling in our other vulnerabilities, of which there are multiple.
Dont over-commit.
Probably not thematically appropriate for Molly.
And since Molly already has Usum acting as a -2 DC buff for Awareness rolls, its not really mechanically necessary either, which means she's probably better off spending that XP on other things first.
Harry is a wizard, and isn't nearly as interesting a target as we are besides.
We've eaten a mutation based death curse, time magic, and an outsider's mystery murder magic in the last few months. Arguably the leyline thing would also have counted as shaping if it got that far.
If we hadn't threaded the needle on the negotiations we'd already have had our fight with Broken Seeker, who has repeatedly shown a fondness for shaping effects. When we get around to him we'll probably see that in play.
We're seeing shaping events pretty commonly in our notable events, and they're only getting stronger.
1) Harry is a Starborn, and is apparently of significant importance to the current celestial cycle going on.
He's survived two entropy curses I can recall(Death Masks and Blood Rites), and at least one Shroud of Turin-channeled genocide plague ritual (Death Masks). And he ate a death curse around a year ago(Dead Beat).
We are an OCP, but I dont think its a fair characterization to say he's a less interesting target for that sort of shit.
2)Antimagic bracelets are a Sorcery Path 3 effect.
Enchantment 3 said:
-An amulet inscribed with arcane symbols, on a leather thong. When grapsed it will act as a personal ward against sorcery, up to three times a day (number of dice subtracted equals the successes rolled on the Enchantment). This amulet must be kept in a jewelry box carved out of a single crystal when not worn or the Enchantment will fade (one success per night) until it becomes a simple piece of jewelry.
If we equate Kingdom with devil-tiger charm, then I must mention that devil-tigers don't have such things as fetish-souls. Infernals are without such weakness
Shaping defenses also mean that we can yell out our full name and dare anyone to try anything if they think they're hard enough then show them that they aren't.
Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy (•••••)
Whenever the universe dares to mar the Infernal's immaculate and ideal self, she may exert her will to reset herself to her default state of perfection.
System: Whenever the character is the subject of any supernatural power that seeks to transform, infect, taint, transport, or control her body or spirit, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower and roll Willpower against difficulty 7. Success undoes the hostile magic before it can finish affecting the Infernal, protecting her completely, and immunizes her against repeated attempts to exert the same sort of influence for the rest of the scene.
Alternately, the Infernal can spend 1 Essence to radically accelerate her healing for 24 hours. So long as she takes no strenuous activity, the Infernal heals all bashing damage or one level of lethal damage per 15 minutes of rest. An hour of rest mends one level of aggravated damage.
EIPP is a scene long shaping defence, and being mote-tapped is an ongoing hazard.
Scenelong only, then it turns off.
Furthermore, a magical attack that is aimed at you using your Name is only shaping if it tries to directly change you; shit like stopping your heart or giving you a stroke or hanging a curse on you. If it is used to do something like drop a satellite on your head, for example, make a car jump off a bridge to crush you, or mindcontrol people and animals to kill you, its probably not shaping.
Hold up, couldn't we purchase Balance of Chi right now? I mean, we can use what Brother Divsimar taught us combined with our Alchemy to balance our Chi anyways, so is it worth it to learn it as an ability? If I recall right, we were going down that route to find a way to deal with the Nightmares right? Is what we have already sufficient, or should we purchase the Ability, or just buy down the Flaw?
Molly had a huge target on her back before but after creating an entire world things are going to be even worse. The crafting charm would allow us to close some of those gaps given the right materials.
However it may be possible to find those things or have them made by experts in magic and tech from our Hell. At least in reguards to personal defences. They may or may not have needed to make anything subtle that Lydia or otherwise could bring to a casual setting, but I refuse to believe that they in the very least can't give them something to make due for now.
With a population of 5billion they should be able to manage something that we can improve even without the crafting charm.
Shaping defence however covers way to many possible blindspots and attack vectors. We have a shitload of enemies and Molly is no longer such an unknown after this "cosmic" event. People who didn't care to know before will suddenly be very interested in us one way or another.
The entire reason for Molly getting her Hell(or at least the trigger) was not having a safe place to keep her friends. If need be we can compensate with our Hell until we have the 15xp for it.
The Shaping Defence cost 20xp so if we don't get it now we might not have enough after the next arc which could screw us over badly if we get hit and fail the save in that window of several months. [X] Plan Justified Paranoia
[X] Plan Staying In Shape
1) I looked; there's nothing in the Sorcery Path books I have access to that suggests that lowprofile armor/soak effects are available off the shelf. And given our Hell's apparent fondness for implants, any would be cyberware: invasive implants that require surgical implantation and may or may not require ongoing maintenance. Unsuitable.
However, like I've pointed out, antimagic talismans are a Path 3 effect for Enchantment.
Which you can probably pick up in our Hell.
2)There is a misapprehension here about what Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy does.
This is what EIPP defends against:
System: Whenever the character is the subject of any supernatural power that seeks to transform, infect, taint, transport, or control her body or spirit, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower and roll Willpower against difficulty 7. Success undoes the hostile magic before it can finish affecting the Infernal, protecting her completely, and immunizes her against repeated attempts to exert the same sort of influence for the rest of the scene.
Alternately, the Infernal can spend 1 Essence to radically accelerate her healing for 24 hours. So long as she takes no strenuous activity, the Infernal heals all bashing damage or one level of lethal damage per 15 minutes of rest. An hour of rest mends one level of aggravated damage.
Molly is already immune to attempts to control her body or spirit because she bought IPP.
As a Celestial Exalt, she is immune to attempts to possess her.
As an Exalt with Wits+Occult of 7, she is resistant to attempts to transform or taint her body
EIPP is very important. Its not critical.
We already have defenses against some of the things it defends against. If we didnt, we wouldnt have survived this long.
3)We have almost always made more than 20xp in a turn.
Not entirely true, but the general thrust appears accurate.
Picking up Sorcery Path 3 devices from our hell to buffer our antimagic defenses temporarily is entirely within range of possibility; Path 3 is expert-level gear, but its not impossibly rare like you'd expect at Path 5/6.
I think we can acquire it though? It confused me that it didn't show up on this last update, but apparently we can purchase it? Or are we gonna wait and train it again to get more of an XP discount?
I think we can acquire it though? It confused me that it didn't show up on this last update, but apparently we can purchase it? Or are we gonna wait and train it again to get more of an XP discount?
It's our only option for a shaping defense, and the closest we've come to game over was when that knight threw a shaping effect at us. Our three die counterspelling pool from essence level was the only thing between us and whatever his Hail Mary was.
Point of correction:
Exalted native countermagic is Wits + Occult, capped by Willpower.
ExWoD pg 247 said:
The Exalted have an array of Charms with which to protect themselves from various curses and other forms of hostile magic too esoteric to avoid by stepping out of the way quickly. For those who lack those Charms, rules for crude and dirty fighting back against magick can be found on page 546 of M20 (use the rules for vampires and other Willpower-based critters, specifically). This book does recommend that such crude counterspells be restricted to those with at least Occult 2+, and that the character needs to understand they're being targeted by magic and trying to counter it.
Night-Folk can use the equivalent of basic countermagick. Instead of Arete, such entities use their Wits + Occult as a dice pool. However, that dice pool cannot exceed the Gnosis or Rage (whichever is higher, for werecreatures), Willpower (vampires, spirits, wraiths, demons, hunters, and hedge wizards), Glamour (changelings and other fae), Mystic Shield (Bygones), or True Faith (faithful humans) Trait of the Night-Folk character. Essentially, those Traits reflect the metaphysical capacity of the target character. If a werewolf, for instance, has a Wits + Occult dice pool of six but a Gnosis of 4 and a Rage of 3, then she cannot use more than four dice as countermagick.
If the targeted creature does not have a Wits + Occult dice pool, then the Storyteller may rule that the character cannot resist True Magick – see Optional Limits, below. That said, a mage needs certain Spheres in order to harm a member of the Night-Folk. As shown on the Common Magickal Effects chart (p. 508), Life Sphere magick alone cannot affect vampires, werebeasts, ghosts, spirits, or the fae.
For Molly thats Wits 3 + Occult 5 for a dicepool of 8. Her dicepool cap would be (Willpower) 9.
For Lydia its Wits 4 + Occult 1 for a dicepool of 5. Her dicepool cap would be (Willpower) 5.
Not entirely true, but the general thrust appears accurate.
Picking up Sorcery Path 3 devices from our hell to buffer our antimagic defenses temporarily is entirely within range of possibility; Path 3 is expert-level gear, but its not impossibly rare like you'd expect at Path 5/6.
Path 3 effects is something I would expect to be standard product level in our hell. Path 4 is getting into rich level. 5 dot path would be rare but Molly as the basically the head of the entire world can get it if we want.
We know they have permanent Teleportals between all the cities and the capital. That in both Sorcerer Revised, and M20, requires Conveyance Path 5, and a permanent willpower dot cost, and at minimum their are 15 such active portals.
Why not approval vote then? As is, plan Vulcan is not winning but Forge Emp still has a chance.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Aug 25, 2023 at 12:27 AM, finished with 106 posts and 28 votes.
[X] Plan Justified Paranoia -[X] Molly, 22 XP --[X] Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy: 20 XP --[X] Banked XP: 2xp -[X] Lydia, 9 XP --[X] Impervious Skin of Stone Meditation (••) 6 xp --[X] Acute Senses 1 Merit: 3xp -[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm
[X] Plan Forge Empress -[X] Molly, 22 XP --[X] Constructive Convergence of Principles, 15 XP --[X] Craft 5 dots, 7 XP (3+4) --[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm -[X] Lydia, 9 XP
--[X] Quarry Revelation Technique (•••) 9 xp
[X] Plan Staying In Shape
-[X] Molly 22 exp
—[X] Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy 20 is exp
—[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm
—[X] Buy down touch of frost 2 exp
-[X] Lydia 9 exp
—[X] Unimpeded Assault of the Deathless 9 exp
[X] Plan Vulcan -[X] Molly, 22 XP --[X] Constructive Convergence of Principles, 15 XP --[X] Awareness 2: 5 XP (3+2) --[X] Banked XP: 2xp -[X] Lydia, 9 XP --[X] Impervious Skin of Stone Meditation (••) 6 xp --[X] Acute Senses 1 Merit: 3xp -[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm
[X] Plan Justified Paranoia plus prayer-eatting -[X] Molly, 22 XP --[X] Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy: 20 XP --[X] Prayer-eating 1: 2 XP -[X] Lydia, 9 XP --[X] Impervious Skin of Stone Meditation (••) 6 xp --[X] Acute Senses 1 Merit: 3xp -[X] Set The King and the Kingdom: The Thousand and First Hell as the signature charm
The usual big advantage besides the perfect defense of Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy over our natural crude counter magic is that it can be done as a reflective action and therefore can be used against surprise attacks we don't see coming.
However since reflexive actions in this quest have been ruled to require prior knowledge it's much less useful given the ur example of a hostile shaping effect in DF is someone stole some of your blood and makes your heart explode from miles away.
Then again it says that success undoes the hostile effect so maybe our heart would explode then put itself back together.
I agree with buying CCoP for 15xp. However, Plan Forge Empress spends 7xp on increasing our Craft dice pool from 18 dice(Dexterity 4 + Craft 3 + Excellency 7 + Without Honor 2 + Stunt 2) to 22 dice (Dexterity 4 + Craft 5 + Excellency 9 + Without Honor 2 + Stunt 2). Thats only a 22% increase.
Meantime, we have no Awareness dots, the passive notice supernatural shit ability, at a time that a naagloshii and its coven has gotten uncomfortably interested in our business.
And thats not counting whoever pointed Madrigal and the Skavis at us.
Awareness 2 is 5XP, and increases our Perception + Awareness pool by 67% (3 to 5), which is important for all sorts of reasons, from noticing impending magical attack to noticing supernatural stalkers.
We have a pressing need there that is being ignored for symmetry reasons.
Worse? Plan Forge Empress throws all of Lydia's XP into a tracking charm when she's barely survivable on the battlefield as is.
Lydia has Stamina 2. Thats her entire walking around soak at the moment.
That was her entire soak at the Raith party.
If shit pops off without notice, thats all she has.
And her ability to notice stuff is shit: Perception 2, Alertness 2, Awareness 1.
We saw the results of this back at the fight with the Will of Kakuri, where she lost half her HP to a single attack that wasnt even aimed at her. And she STILL couldnt see through the greater akuma's concealment magic.
Thats in part why we sent her away to see if she could get Harry and Michael back from the NeverNever.
She may not be a Celestial Exalt, but she is still supposed to be an Exalt and an asset, not someone Molly has to babysit to keep alive. And the choices made for her in Forge Empress dont treat her that way.
EIPP is very important. Its not critical.
We already have defenses against some of the things it defends against. If we didnt, we wouldnt have survived this long.
Well sure and that works for mind control and whatnot but in reguards to "shaping" attacks specifically(the walker for example) we survived because we got lucky repeatedly not because we have defences in place.
The problem is you can't account for what the enemy may or may not attack us with but we know that we've been attacked with magic we had no real defence against and if I understand the mechanics right(correct me if I don't), leaned on sheer luck to avoid. It has happened multiple times now. It seems like a priority to me.
Maybe your right and Molly won't run into anything strong enough like a Walker with magic enough to overcome her dice but thats a gamble.
Edit: Also I just remembered the Red Court is why we fought a Walker earlier in the first place. We may run into more in the next arc.
It feel like it is worth mentioning that 2 more craft dots giving 4 more dice is likely to regularly be the difference between 10 successes and 15. Or even 20 successes. When you can get the DC as low as we can every extra dice is more impactful and the difference between 10 and 15 is often more dramatic then the difference between 5 and 10.
But having max crafting dice also makes a difference when we aren't doing big projects pulling out all the stops. Cooking a meal, making a paper airplane, or just general tinkering.
Molly has a passive 5x crafting speed bonus even when not spending any essanse. It makes many things more practical that normally wouldn't be.
There is a whole set of projects that we really want CCoP for which make getting it now a priority. In no particular order
1) Daniel - we have been shown twice now that he's on the verge of breaking and running off into NeverNever with basically no prep. We need to prevent that, and the only viable way we have that isn't convincing him to abandon his ideals is to craft him equipment, which requires CCoP
2) Order of Cauldron - they were just attacked. Right now is the best time to redo all their defenses, and that requires CCoP for the maximum effectiveness.
3) Last Station - with Craft 5 we have a chance of finishing this turn, I think, and, again, capping it off with CCoP to make a Wyrmtrain-like construct for our host. This saves as AP next turn, which is always a priority
4) Equipment for everyone. Most of our companions are rather fragile, and with our kingdom right there, we can solve this via craft in a broad utility way
5) Christmas is coming - Molly need to unwind, at least a bit. Making gifts for friends for christmas is a good and productive way to do so
6) Our kingdom's base of operation - certainly requires CCoP
7) City gods. And not just Chicago god, but also Court city gods.
CCoP is the proactive vote, rather than reactive, like shaping defenses are. Shaping defenses are important, but they are a reaction. I'll look into splendors again - I am fairly sure we could craft ourselves some protections. CCoP offers much more utility right now. We'll get shaping defenses next turn.
If we are going for the crafting charm we definitely want to max Craft as well, so we can get the most out of the charm. You are forgetting that while Molly raw dice pool does not increase a lot. It does effect what she can make, not even Exalted get a cheat around ability minimums.
If something takes 5 dots of Craft to make, you need 5 dots base to make it. Same as we had to buy technology 2 to be able to upgrade the last station to modern electronics. Even thou the excellency would have given more dice, it does not allow for building stuff you do not have the stats for.
