fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Paranoia is going to make him less likely to kill the hostages not more. They are worse then useless dead.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Let me try one more time:
This asshole has had his minions running around town for months.
He's been collecting information. He's had setup time. He even has the details of Molly shanking a Walker less than three weeks ago in the White Court.
We dont know what contingencies it has in play.
Like you yourself pointed out, having an auto-trigger death spell on our friends is fairly straightforward, and from where we are we wouldnt know unless we stumbled over it.
We dont know what its motives are;.
We know it wants Dresden, but we dont know if it wants to eat him, or capture him for other reasons, let alone why.
And we killed the only person we had who we could have asked.
We dont know whose behest its acting on.
There surely are a lot more wizards closer to its base in Nevada; its right next to California, yet it came to Illnois, so someone has to have pointed it in this direction. And its a powerful incentive for it to be messing with Molly, in the same city as a Sword.
And we currently have no preparations with regards to the masquerade, to boot.
We are at the wrong end of an information asymmetry.
And our resources are limited; Lydia is out of town right now.
Our best option for mitigating this is talking to him in order to get information from him
Its the same as when Dresden has to talk to Nicodemus. Or the Red Court.
You dont have to like someone to profit from talking to them before taking action
Else we can end up investing effort in one direction and find out too late that we should have been doing something else
Molly wont die.
But there's other lives on the line here, our friends and potentially that of surrounding civies.
Dont commit us to a particular course of action before intelligence gathering by talking to him.
Their being useless dead doesnt stop him killing them.
He's a naagloshii, a fallen divine messenger/ god of pain and sadism.
He tends to default to torture-murder.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Best to act quickly then every second is a risk.
Acting quickly in the absence of information is like blundering into a minefield blind and without a map.
Haste is not speed.
- Location
- Germany
I refuse to negotiate with things that should die.
The Naagloshii is pretty close to leading that category, doubly so for abducting our friends.
I found this list of Spells Harry used at some point in the books, but it's unfortunatly not properly quoted:
wntrknghtdresden.wixsite.com
The Naagloshii is pretty close to leading that category, doubly so for abducting our friends.
Not sure now, actually.
I found this list of Spells Harry used at some point in the books, but it's unfortunatly not properly quoted:
Spells | harry-dresden
Harry has negotiated with everything from hitmen to black magic users to Kemmlerites to Denarians.
Michael has talked to everything from Red Court to Denarians.
Harry has outright talked to two Walkers, both Nemesis and Sharkface.
Never be too proud to get information.
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- Location
- Germany
I'm not against talking.
We've had a nice chat with the Walker, or with Hank.
I just don't see the point in negotiating with him.
We won't act against Harry, we won't let him get away with our friends, this can only end in our or his death.
We can talk on the battlefield.
The spell you are looking for is probably this one, from Turn Coat, where he uses it on a mind-controlled lawyer:
Evelyn Derek stared at me and whispered, "Who are you?"
I said, "Harry Dresden."
She blinked slowly and said, her voice dazed, "She ran from you." Tears started forming in her eyes. "What is happening to me?"
Magic that invades the thoughts of another human being is just about as black as it gets, a direct violation of the Laws of Magic that the Wardens uphold. But there are grey areas, like in any set of laws, and there are accepted customs as to what was or was not allowed in practice.
There wasn't much I could do for Evelyn. It would take a hand lighter and more skilled than mine to undo the harm that had been done to her mind, if it could be undone at all. But there was one thing I could do for her, a bit of grey magic that even the White Council acknowledged as an aid and a mercy, especially for those who had suffered the kind of psychic trauma Evelyn had.
I called up my will as gently as I could, and reached out with my right hand. I passed my fingertips gently over her eyes, causing her to close them, and as I passed my palm from her forehead down to her chin, I released that will with as much care as I possibly could, murmuring, "
Dorme, dormius , Evelyn. Dorme, dormius."
She let out a little whimpering sound of relief, and her body sagged to the floor in sudden and complete relaxation. She breathed in deeply once, exhaled, and then passed into simple and dreamless slumber.
I made her as comfortable as I could. With luck, when she woke, she would pass most of our confrontation off as a bad dream. Then I turned and left the law office behind me, quiet anger growing inside me with every step. I went by the security guard at the door as the anger started nudging over into fury. I slapped the receipt down on his desk, and with a gesture and a muttered word caused my staff to leap from where it leaned against the wall and into my hand.
I said, "Harry Dresden."
She blinked slowly and said, her voice dazed, "She ran from you." Tears started forming in her eyes. "What is happening to me?"
Magic that invades the thoughts of another human being is just about as black as it gets, a direct violation of the Laws of Magic that the Wardens uphold. But there are grey areas, like in any set of laws, and there are accepted customs as to what was or was not allowed in practice.
There wasn't much I could do for Evelyn. It would take a hand lighter and more skilled than mine to undo the harm that had been done to her mind, if it could be undone at all. But there was one thing I could do for her, a bit of grey magic that even the White Council acknowledged as an aid and a mercy, especially for those who had suffered the kind of psychic trauma Evelyn had.
I called up my will as gently as I could, and reached out with my right hand. I passed my fingertips gently over her eyes, causing her to close them, and as I passed my palm from her forehead down to her chin, I released that will with as much care as I possibly could, murmuring, "
Dorme, dormius , Evelyn. Dorme, dormius."
She let out a little whimpering sound of relief, and her body sagged to the floor in sudden and complete relaxation. She breathed in deeply once, exhaled, and then passed into simple and dreamless slumber.
I made her as comfortable as I could. With luck, when she woke, she would pass most of our confrontation off as a bad dream. Then I turned and left the law office behind me, quiet anger growing inside me with every step. I went by the security guard at the door as the anger started nudging over into fury. I slapped the receipt down on his desk, and with a gesture and a muttered word caused my staff to leap from where it leaned against the wall and into my hand.
The Gatekeeper also uses mind magic to knock out Molly and try to knock out Harry later in the book, but thats the Gatekeeper; what he can and cannot do is unclear, as are the rules he operates by.
Might not even have been a spell; might have been a voice-activated artifact.
I climbed down from the bridge and was just about to hop to the dock when a tall, slender figure in a black robe, black cape, and black hood appeared from behind a veil, standing at the very end of the dock. He lifted his old rune-carved staff, muttered a word, and then brought it smashing down onto the wooden planks.
A disk of sparkling blue light washed out from the point of impact. I had time, barely, to draw in my will, cross my arms at the wrists, holding them against my chest, and slam will into both my shield bracelet and into strengthening my mental defenses.
Smears of deep blue, purple, and dark green appeared like puffs of smoke where the expanding ring struck Molly, Will, and Georgia, and the three of them simply collapsed, dropping into sprawling heaps on the dock and the deck of the boat. My vision darkened and for an instant I felt unbearably tired—but in a panic I forced more energy into my defenses, and the instant passed.
The robed figure stood staring at me for a few seconds. Then it spoke in a deep voice. "Put the staff down, Dresden." Swirling narcotic colors gathered around his staff, and he pointed it at me like a gun. "It is over."
The rain came down steadily. I risked a glance at the others. They were all down, but breathing. Molly's head, shoulders, and arms hung off the side of the boat. Wet, her sapphire-dyed hair looked like a much darker hue. Each rock of the boat made her hands swing. She was in danger of falling into the water.
I turned back to the cloaked figure and peered at him. Big billowy cloaks and robes are nicely dramatic, especially if you're facing into the wind—but under a calm, soaking rain they just look waterlogged. The outfit clung to the figure, looking rather miserable.
The rain also made the cloth look darker than it was. Looking closer, I could see faint hints of color in the cloth, which wasn't actually black. It was a purple so deep that it was close.
"Wizard Rashid?" I asked.
The Gatekeeper's staff never wavered as he faced me. He lifted a hand and drew back his hood. His face was long and sharp-featured and weathered like old leather. He wore a short beard that was shot through with silver, and his silver hair was short, stiff brush. One of his eyes was dark. The other had a pair of horrible old silver scars running through it, from his hairline down to his jaw. The injury had to have ruined his natural eye. It had been replaced with something that looked like a stainless-steel ball bearing. "Indeed," he said calmly.
A disk of sparkling blue light washed out from the point of impact. I had time, barely, to draw in my will, cross my arms at the wrists, holding them against my chest, and slam will into both my shield bracelet and into strengthening my mental defenses.
Smears of deep blue, purple, and dark green appeared like puffs of smoke where the expanding ring struck Molly, Will, and Georgia, and the three of them simply collapsed, dropping into sprawling heaps on the dock and the deck of the boat. My vision darkened and for an instant I felt unbearably tired—but in a panic I forced more energy into my defenses, and the instant passed.
The robed figure stood staring at me for a few seconds. Then it spoke in a deep voice. "Put the staff down, Dresden." Swirling narcotic colors gathered around his staff, and he pointed it at me like a gun. "It is over."
Chapter Thirty-nine
The rain came down steadily. I risked a glance at the others. They were all down, but breathing. Molly's head, shoulders, and arms hung off the side of the boat. Wet, her sapphire-dyed hair looked like a much darker hue. Each rock of the boat made her hands swing. She was in danger of falling into the water.
I turned back to the cloaked figure and peered at him. Big billowy cloaks and robes are nicely dramatic, especially if you're facing into the wind—but under a calm, soaking rain they just look waterlogged. The outfit clung to the figure, looking rather miserable.
The rain also made the cloth look darker than it was. Looking closer, I could see faint hints of color in the cloth, which wasn't actually black. It was a purple so deep that it was close.
"Wizard Rashid?" I asked.
The Gatekeeper's staff never wavered as he faced me. He lifted a hand and drew back his hood. His face was long and sharp-featured and weathered like old leather. He wore a short beard that was shot through with silver, and his silver hair was short, stiff brush. One of his eyes was dark. The other had a pair of horrible old silver scars running through it, from his hairline down to his jaw. The injury had to have ruined his natural eye. It had been replaced with something that looked like a stainless-steel ball bearing. "Indeed," he said calmly.
We are talking to him to elicit information from him and protect the lives of the hostages. Thats the point.
When the police send negotiators to talk to hostage takers, the goal is to talk them into freeing their hostages, or to finesse them and get information from them so a SWAT team can resolve the issue.
Same concept in play.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Problem is that talking to him gives him information that we don't want him to have.
@Artemis1992
He also uses the same sleep spell back in Grave Peril to put Murphy to sleep after the Nightmare mindfucks her:
So yeah, therapeutic spell.
In both circumstances, its not something you can use in combat or without a fair bit of contact.
He also uses the same sleep spell back in Grave Peril to put Murphy to sleep after the Nightmare mindfucks her:
I turned back to Murphy, taking the plastic sack of sand out of the lunch box. I got out a piece of chalk and pushed Murphy's chair back from the desk so that I could draw a circle around us both and will it closed. It took more effort than it usually did, leaving me dizzy for a second.
I swallowed and began to gather up energy, to focus it as carefully and precisely as I could. It built slowly, while Murphy continued to inhale, and to exhale whispered screams. I put my hand on her cold fingers, and thought about all the stuff we'd been through, the bond of friendship that had grown between us. Good times and bad, Murph's heart had always been in the right place. She didn't deserve this kind of torment.
A great fury began to stir in me—not some vaporous, swiftly dissipated flash of anger, but something deeper, darker, more calm and more dangerous. Rage. Rage that this sort of thing should happen to someone as selfless and caring as Murphy. Rage that the creature had used my power, my face, to trick its way close to her and to hurt her.
From that rage came the power I needed. I gathered it up carefully and shaped it with my thoughts into the softest-edged spell I could conceive. Gently, I sent the power coursing down my arm into the grains of sand I pinched between a single fingertip. Then I slowly lifted my arm, the spell holding in a precarious balance as I sprinkled a bit of sand over each of her eyes. "Dormius, dorme," I whispered. "Murphy, dormius."
Power coursed out of me, flowed down my arm like water. I felt it fall with the grains of sand. Murphy let out a long, shivering breath, and her staring eyes began to flutter closed. Her expression slackened, from horror to deep, silent sleep, and she slumped into her chair.
I let out my breath as the spell took hold, and bowed my head, trembling. I reached out and stroked my hand over Murphy's hair. Then I composed her into something that looked a little more comfortable. "Down where there's no dreams," I whispered to her. "Just rest, Murph. I'll nail this thing for you."
With an effort of will, I smudged the circle and broke it. Then I stepped outside it, used the chalk to close it again and willed it closed around Murphy. I had to strain, this time, more than I'd ever needed to since I was barely more than a child. But the circle closed around her, sealing her in. A small haze, only an inch or two high, danced around the chalk lines, like heat waves rising from summer roads. The circle would keep out anything from the Nevernever—and the enchanted sleep would hold until the dawn came, keep her from dreaming and giving the Nightmare a way to further harm her.
I swallowed and began to gather up energy, to focus it as carefully and precisely as I could. It built slowly, while Murphy continued to inhale, and to exhale whispered screams. I put my hand on her cold fingers, and thought about all the stuff we'd been through, the bond of friendship that had grown between us. Good times and bad, Murph's heart had always been in the right place. She didn't deserve this kind of torment.
A great fury began to stir in me—not some vaporous, swiftly dissipated flash of anger, but something deeper, darker, more calm and more dangerous. Rage. Rage that this sort of thing should happen to someone as selfless and caring as Murphy. Rage that the creature had used my power, my face, to trick its way close to her and to hurt her.
From that rage came the power I needed. I gathered it up carefully and shaped it with my thoughts into the softest-edged spell I could conceive. Gently, I sent the power coursing down my arm into the grains of sand I pinched between a single fingertip. Then I slowly lifted my arm, the spell holding in a precarious balance as I sprinkled a bit of sand over each of her eyes. "Dormius, dorme," I whispered. "Murphy, dormius."
Power coursed out of me, flowed down my arm like water. I felt it fall with the grains of sand. Murphy let out a long, shivering breath, and her staring eyes began to flutter closed. Her expression slackened, from horror to deep, silent sleep, and she slumped into her chair.
I let out my breath as the spell took hold, and bowed my head, trembling. I reached out and stroked my hand over Murphy's hair. Then I composed her into something that looked a little more comfortable. "Down where there's no dreams," I whispered to her. "Just rest, Murph. I'll nail this thing for you."
With an effort of will, I smudged the circle and broke it. Then I stepped outside it, used the chalk to close it again and willed it closed around Murphy. I had to strain, this time, more than I'd ever needed to since I was barely more than a child. But the circle closed around her, sealing her in. A small haze, only an inch or two high, danced around the chalk lines, like heat waves rising from summer roads. The circle would keep out anything from the Nevernever—and the enchanted sleep would hold until the dawn came, keep her from dreaming and giving the Nightmare a way to further harm her.
In both circumstances, its not something you can use in combat or without a fair bit of contact.
The vote is pretty close and the conversation is ongoing. I am inclined to let this go until tomorrow. In any case I will be pretty busy tomorrow so a morning update would be good for me because the day after tomorrow (the 6th) I'll be traveling most of the day so I will not be able to post at all.
He has been scouting us for months.
We will get proportionately more information from him than he will get from us because right now, we know nothing about him.
If we kick off festivities, and start taking action without recon, without any attempts to gather further information on the situation?
We run an elevated risk of shit going badly wrong for our friends, and for the people walking around oblivious in what could very well become an active warzone.
This is Bad.
There is no honor or glory in going into a situation half-cocked without information.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It gives him the most important information mainly that we aren't still in the never-never when he has good reason to think that we will have an hour travel back.
- Location
- Germany
Okay, thanks for the info.
At least for Harry that spell's out then.
Could be because he's shit with mental magic, could be that White Council Wizards in general don't use sleep-spells aggresivly to avoid getting to close to the Laws.
Still doesn't really clarify the original worry wether this might cause mental damage, but honestly that's pretty secondary compared to the concern that Alec and Izzy will quite possibly die here anyway.
Thats an assumption.
Like I said, its been long established that Molly feels like a mini-Darkhallow.
I would not assume that he cant feel our presence in Chicago.
After all, if we came back to Chicago normally, we wouldnt know that Alec and Izzy had been kidnapped if someone didnt tell us.
Im less worried about mental damage.
The dude who put death spells in his minions is not going to have issues with putting fail-deadly death spells on hostages.
Or even just magical poisons with no mundane antidote.
Layered contingencies.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
In which case all we can do is surrender utterly or focus on revenge. I would rather focus on the chance of saving them and fail deadly is actually a serious risk on his part because if they die he loses all leverage. Now he has every reason to set that up after threatening us or lie about having set it up. But setting it up without telling us just makes more reason to kill him.
Also I am going to level with you if we negotiate to monsters because they threaten our friends we put all our friends in greater danger in general. It's just not a good policy.
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This is not an either/or situation.
And no, he doesnt lose all leverage. How many people are there in Cauldron? Or in Last Station?
What of Rosie?
Izzy and Alec were chosen because they were the most vulnerable, and the lowest-hanging fruit, and because we care.
Not because they are the only people who can be targeted.
In this very quest, we have negotiated with Eiko of the Bloody Chrysanthemum when our minions were kidnapped.
And it was successful, and split the force we had to deal with in half, avoiding a fight in the middle of a civilian area.
Talking works. Thats why we invested so many points in Empathy and Etiquette.
In the greater Dresdenverse mythology? Dresden only survived Death Masks because Shiro negotiated with Nicodemus for his life. He and Thomas only survived Blood Rites because he negotiated with Lara. He only survived Summer Knight because he negotiated and talked to Elaine. He only survived White Night because he negotiated with both Lara and Marcone.
He only got Ivy free in Small Favor because he was willing to talk to Nicodemus and the rest until he saw an opportunity to free her.
You can reject a person's threats and ultimatums and still talk to them.
Refusing to do so gives up the opportunity to both gather intelligence and to throw them off their game.
AND it makes it more likely that the next set of people will escalate further when they want your attention.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Which is the exact reason we don't negotiate. It puts everyone in greater danger.
Although I guess you not wanting to make any friends at all makes more sense now.
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On the matter of circles, if you draw a circle around the van and Harry manages to empower it, that is rolls Arette so do the simplest ward he can you can basically knock some dice off every one violating the circle, mortal and no -1 dice for every two successes he gets. This is a working that would keep running until either they left the area or they killed Harry.
I think at this point it's fairly clear we are going to lose. Not the actual fight, but, if Broken Seeker really prepared this for months instead of five days, we are going to lose something. It almost certainly has access to biological weapons like smallpox or various kinds of poisons, mundane and magical with delayed action (because Intellectus on how to torture people should cover delayed action poisons). If it wants our friends to die then, barring emergency buy of our kingdom, or something similar, our friends are going to die. And this is not only about Izzy and Alec.
Frankly, from game theory perspective, I think it's best to consider Izzy and Alec dead already.
The only thing that might save them, and us, is that Broken Seeker actually seems kinda shit at inspiring loyalty. Fear and obedience yes, loyalty no. We should try and subvert his cult, but I don't see many options on how to do this.
Frankly, from game theory perspective, I think it's best to consider Izzy and Alec dead already.
The only thing that might save them, and us, is that Broken Seeker actually seems kinda shit at inspiring loyalty. Fear and obedience yes, loyalty no. We should try and subvert his cult, but I don't see many options on how to do this.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
There is negotiation and there is making a threat. There is no chance we ever agree to anything Broken Seeker wants in exchange for our friends. Their lives are not worth the potential cost, in the short or long term. We can talk to him, but all it will ever amount to is buying time or fishing for information. We have too many other dependents who could be used as leverage if we ever open that floodgate even once.
What it is going to come down to is the threat of violence and how fearful Broken Seeker is of death, because we can kill him and there isn't a damned thing it can do to stop us if we decide to devote the time and energy necessary to accomplish the task. At best, it can delay the inevitable by running and hiding and hoping something distracts us from vengeance for a while.
I don't want Alec and Izzy to suffer or die here, but the followup retribution could at least be good example to the supernatural community about what happens when anyone messes with our people.
But we have to talk to him first, because that is literally our only chance to resolve this without violence that will almost certainly end with our friends' deaths. If that doesn't work, at least we will have made the attempt.
What it is going to come down to is the threat of violence and how fearful Broken Seeker is of death, because we can kill him and there isn't a damned thing it can do to stop us if we decide to devote the time and energy necessary to accomplish the task. At best, it can delay the inevitable by running and hiding and hoping something distracts us from vengeance for a while.
I don't want Alec and Izzy to suffer or die here, but the followup retribution could at least be good example to the supernatural community about what happens when anyone messes with our people.
But we have to talk to him first, because that is literally our only chance to resolve this without violence that will almost certainly end with our friends' deaths. If that doesn't work, at least we will have made the attempt.
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Basically this, yeah. Broken Seeker seeks to avoid confrontation. Problem is, giving him Harry in exchange for Izzy and Alec does not work on multiple levels, even if we could be assured that he would actually let them go undamaged, and without keeping something like a jar of their blood so they could be remote-killed later. Accepting any sort of geas also doesn't work. Hell, with IPM anything it wants just doesn't work at all. Basically we can't trust it, and it can't trust us. There's no actual negotiations to be had here.