Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Marcone knows. Gard explicitely told him:
Yes, Marcone knows that Molly has a relationship with knowledge/technology spirits.
Not that Molly can do divination on her own, or that her personal divination is particularly good.

There's a difference between scrying/divination, and asking spirits to get information for you.
He "noticed the tail" within minutes of us coming in contact with Hank. Broken Seeker is not stupid and should be able to put two and two together.
He does not know that.
Like I said, this is Harry's life. The man has survived multiple assassination attempts, and explicitly is aware that there has been a naagloshii in Chicago ever since Molly captured Skinwalker Bob three weeks ago. He went to their previous camp.

Seeker would expect him to be twitchy.
We do not have or use Sight, though. And given how strong Hank was, the only way to use MHM in combat would be to add Occult Excellency to the mix. MHM's primary purpose here should be to get Izzy and Alec out of the way.

Plus, MHM inflicts bashing damage, which we cannot upgrade to lethal or aggravated. Broken Seeker and likely its followers would shrug it off.
1)If we're using HC, Im expecting much the same.
Aura reading is essentially seeing a part of the thing's soul after all.
One of the occasions where I would rather be safe than sorry.


2) When used as a weapon, MHM can benefit from Occult or Melee Excellency:
With 3+ successes, the Infernal can "fly" by moving herself around telekinetically. She may also grapple or strike her opponents using telekinesis, using a dice pool of Intelligence + (lower of Occult and Brawl or Melee). These attacks inflict bashing damage, and the Infernal's Temporary Willpower acts as her effective Strength value.
And given as the naagloshii is both supernaturally fast and can use ranged spells, MHM as weapon use will probably be essential.
I wouldnt have been interested in a fight without it.


3) Bashing damage takes time to regenerate.
Regenerating 1HL per turn still clocks out to 5 combat turns to replenish 5HLs that you receive from a significant MHM strike.
Nevermind if it does something like pop an eye.

Plus, I am not sure the naagloshii actually has regeneration.
Healing magic to use on itself, yes.
But not automatic regeneration. Not judging from its fight with Listens to Wind.

It may have installed regen in its servants, but it doesnt mean it has itself.
Just like Cowl had no regen but his uberghoul minions did.
 
There's a difference between scrying/divination, and asking spirits to get information for you.
That being? Marcone knows that Molly can obtain information from thin air, including real time information like enemy's positions. What is the functional difference?
He does not know that.
What? No, seriously, what? He knows we spotted Hank, hence the attempt to kill Hank with a curse. He knows when Harry broke contact. So, yes, he knows that Harry broke contact within minutes of us noticing Hank.
Plus, I am not sure the naagloshii actually has regeneration.
Healing magic to use on itself, yes.
But not automatic regeneration. Not judging from its fight with Listens to Wind.
Not all naagloshii are exactly the same. If his minions have the capability, it's reasonable to expect and prepare for it being able to do everything they can, but better.
2) When used as a weapon, MHM can benefit from Occult or Melee Excellency:
And given as the naagloshii is both supernaturally fast and can use ranged spells, MHM as weapon use will probably be essential.
I wouldnt have been interested in a fight without it.
If we are not locked into the lowest of the three (i.e. Brawl, i.e. one withh zero dots) abilities like the rules would read, and can use Melee, that's a bit better. The attacks would still be ineffectual, I feel. If we go by canon, naagloshii can shrug off firearms easily enough. At best we will have 6 willpower dice, 8 with WHWH. I don't expect us to do any meaningful damage at all with MHM. It's better to preserve essence for Wind-Born stride and the like.
 
Okay, true.But the seperation is purely technical.
Wether Molly learns things from spirits or scrys herself makes no praktical difference, the result is still Molly having access to relativly secret and protected information by supernatural means.
How the information is acquired matters, because it makes a difference about the immediacy and access that you can assume she has, and what countermeasures if any you can take.

Molly is known to use spirits, lives in a home with a man whose Calling is known to get divine prophecies and messages from archangels, and associates with a wizard who literally advertises his ability to find things in the Yellow Pages.
There's a lot of ambiguity there.

I mean, there's a reason why divination and summoning/spiritcalling are different.
Possible, but with all Lara knows and has survived I'm guessing she'd rather overestimate us than underestimate us.
And we did definitly show that we knew about a Nemesis infection that nobody else saw before, or that everyone who knew kept perfect secrecy about.
1) She's a head of state.
She isnt going to make decisions based on maximalist assumptions about other power players. She cant afford to.
Reasonable margin for error sure, but no more.


2) Lara, and everyone else, have no way of knowing when we figured it out.
Could even have been way back in Arctis Tor when we had access to Winter's heartspring, or when we saw Mab for the first time in the museum, or literally any time since.

We certainly didnt break composure after getting the note from Lara via Lydia, so there's no datapoint there either.
The only person who knows that we figured it out in the bathroom is probably Lydia.
 
How the information is acquired matters, because it makes a difference about the immediacy and access that you can assume she has, and what countermeasures if any you can take.

Molly is known to use spirits, lives in a home with a man whose Calling is known to get divine prophecies and messages from archangels, and associates with a wizard who literally advertises his ability to find things in the Yellow Pages.
There's a lot of ambiguity there.

I mean, there's a reason why divination and summoning/spiritcalling are different.
Molly was able to acquire real time information on Lydia's location in Gard's presence, if I recall correctly. And about Katrina's car's location and passengers. Gard told about that capability to Marcone.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Aug 4, 2023 at 7:10 AM, finished with 100 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Usum's plan, get line of sight on the van, put a spirit in it and make it stop working to get them off their loop
    [X] Answer the phone the next time it calls, get some answers as to what Broken Seeker wants before engaging, maybe you can shake him up
    -[X]Give Harry some of your hair to track you, just in case
    -[X]Have Clippy pull up a map of the local electrical substations for Chicago, find the one for the local district, fly over and HMP a key transformer: 1m
    [X] Usum's plan, get line of sight on the van, put a spirit in it and make it stop working to get them off their loop
    -[X] Use Harry's veil as a crown focus for a question "How can this be improved to hide magical emanations from the senses of a naagloshii known as Broken Seeker"
    --[X] Use Occult Excellency to better explain the results to Harry
    -[X] If Crown data doesn't give us essence, ask Harry or dad to share whatever arcane secret they can to do so.
    [X] Usum's plan, get line of sight on the van, put a spirit in it and make it stop working to get them off their loop
    -[X] Use Harry's veil as a crown focus for a question "How can this be improved to hide magical emanations from the senses of a naagloshii known as Broken Seeker"
    --[X] Use Occult Excellency to better explain the results to Harry
 
That being? Marcone knows that Molly can obtain information from thin air, including real time information like enemy's positions.
Which essentially says she has a spy network of spirits.
Divination/scrying is distance sensing.

What? No, seriously, what? He knows we spotted Hank, hence the attempt to kill Hank with a curse. He knows when Harry broke contact. So, yes, he knows that Harry broke contact within minutes of us noticing Hank.
Uh, no? Its not a couple minutes, its a good fraction of an hour.
Its been at least twenty minutes since Hank broke contact.

  • The couple minutes that the initial chase and fight, interrogation, and final fight with Molly took,
  • The several minutes to actually destroy the body and get back with Piotr
  • Eight minutes flight time across the island
  • The trip across the Atlantic and the Great Lakes,
  • Then the phone calls
  • At least ten minutes before Harry was done with his client , tried to leave, noticed his tracker, tried to lose him and failed, then eventually had to go home and have Mouse chase the dude off

Maybe its an idiom thing.
Not all naagloshii are exactly the same. If his minions have the capability, it's reasonable to expect and prepare for it being able to do everything they can, but better.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no such assertion in the Dresdenverse lore.
Harry had explicitly spoken to Native Americans with the expertise to know about these things, and to Bob, and to Donald Morgan,and none of those sources gave any indication that true naagloshii varied much, if at all.

There certainly is nothing in Dresdenverse lore that suggests that naagloshii can regenerate.
Heal yes; we see that onscreen.
Not regen.
If we are not locked into the lowest of the three (i.e. Brawl, i.e. one withh zero dots) abilities like the rules would read, and can use Melee, that's a bit better. The attacks would still be ineffectual, I feel. If we go by canon, naagloshii can shrug off firearms easily enough. At best we will have 6 willpower dice, 8 with WHWH. I don't expect us to do any meaningful damage at all with MHM. It's better to preserve essence for Wind-Born stride and the like.
No, we got that house-ruled. Melee Excellency applies.

Our demonsword does 6 Agg damage.
At 7 Bashing, MHM does more damage. It can just be healed.

Naagloshii can put up magic shields against firearms.
No idea whether its just that they can shrug off mortal weapons, which is a thing in WoD.
Or that firearms only do half damage and bashing, which is also a thing in WoD.
 
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Molly was able to acquire real time information on Lydia's location in Gard's presence, if I recall correctly. And about Katrina's car's location and passengers. Gard told about that capability to Marcone.
1) Molly said she knew the shoe tracks, then delayed elaborating on this for several minutes.
Which is the sort of time frame that a suspicious mind would consider it would take for a spirit, or a bunch of spirits, to check something and report back.

2) Molly tells them about Holts car coming this way after pulling out her phone underground and reading a message.
Arc 2 post 35 said:
Just as the thought passes through your mind Clippy starts to vibrate, subtle of her since faking a call down here would be about as believable as a water park in the Sahara.
You flip it open, as though cheeking it for damage from the fight. On the screen is a simple message:

Black Rider is Moving, destination the tattoo parlor. Passenger on left side of car not exhibiting ordinary signs of life yet there is motion. Entrance potentially compromised.
What do you argue for?
Arc 2 post 36 said:
22st of July 2006 A.D.
"Holt's car's coming this way. Forty five minutes out at current speeds. And she's bringing a friend." Abrupt silence meets your declaration, and you take a moment to dust off your knee. "Cant tell what it is, just that its human shaped and fits in a car seat, but has no life signs. Time we get Cindy..." you nod towards her... "out of here." Then you pause, mind racing, as you finally make a connection. "Wait....Holt's a seer isnt she?" you say slowly. "Could she predict the Ankou's daughter would...." The expression on Gard's face gives you your answer. "Fff...udge. Alright everyone, change of plans.

There's a reason why Gard's report to Marcone is to assume that she's got access to spirits with an affinity for tech and to assume networked technology is compromised.
 
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1) Molly said she knew the shoe tracks, then delayed elaborating on this for several minutes.
Which is the sort of time frame that a suspicious mind would consider it would take for a spirit, or a bunch of spirits, to check something and report back.

2) Molly tells them about Holts car coming this way after pulling out her phone underground and reading a message.



There's a reason why Gard's report to Marcone is to assume that she's got access to spirits with an affinity for tech and to assume networked technology is compromised.
This is still effectively scrying, which Marcone knows about.
 
Bashing is much easier to soak than Aggravate though, for everyone we met so far, except Exalted.
Point of correction:
Bashing is universally easier to heal as far as we know.
Some creatures CAN soak bashing more easily, but we dont know if the naagloshii is one of them.

This is still effectively scrying, which Marcone knows about.
No, thats a spy network. There's a distinct difference, and its not just semantics.

Someone getting information from a network of spirit spies opens the prospect that you can block her from her information sources, or that wards against spirits will deny her information.Or that there are situations too dangerous to send her spies into, or which cost too much for whatever her arrangement with the spirits is.

Its something we've seen with divine prophecies in the Dresden Files, where in Death Masks, Nicodemus had the messenger attacked and the prophecy tampered with before it could reach the Knights.


If, on the other hand, she's literally just looking in a bowl of water, or shaking bones, or something similar? Or an archangel is sending her prophetic visions or whispering in her ear?
You have no offensive options.

You just hope your wards can deny them information, if at all possible.
 
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Ok naaglosh are power stealers if one somehow gets an ability to give a servant a power like regeneration but not the power themselves, they will just give it to a servant then eat them.
 
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Point of correction:
Bashing is universally easier to heal as far as we know.
Some creatures CAN soak bashing more easily, but we dont know if the naagloshii is one of them.
Everyone can soak bashing.

Most supernaturals can soak lethal.

Very few people can soak aggaravated, most of them only partially, through Fortitude or Gifts or armor, not with the full normal soak.
 
No, thats not how it works.
Naagloshii steal magic power when they kill people, they dont steal magic abilities.
@DragonParadox, can we get some clarification on this ability?

Uju is correct, AFAIK, but the exact mechanic of this has never really been well defined, IIRC.

Does it work like this (I'm using the term 'mana' for ease of reference):

A) A Skinwalker has a personal mana pool, along with a mana pool consisting of stolen power. Their personal mana recovers normally, but any used from their pool of stolen mana can only be replenished through more wizard murder. This stolen power is also slowly depleted when they are outside of their home territory.

Or

B) A Skinwalker only has a single mana pool consisting of their own power and what they've stolen. Stealing mana permanently increases their base pool, but this base pool is also permanently depleted when mana is lost outside of their territory.
 
Everyone can soak bashing.
Most supernaturals can soak lethal.
Very few people can soak aggaravated, most of them only partially, through Fortitude or Gifts or armor, not with the full normal soak.
Everyone can soak bashing. BUT some people soak bashing at a bonus.
For example, WoD vampires halve bashing damage after soak; if they were dealt, say, 6 bashing damage after soak, its halved to 3.They also treat gunfire as bashing damage. No regen.

Garou dont halve bashing, but when changed, they heal 1HL of bashing or lethal damage /combat round.
If you incapacitate them, though, they get one chance per scene to rage-heal at DC8 and remain active, or they fall unconscious, revert to normal shape and dont heal that Incap HL for around 8 hours, I think.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Aug 4, 2023 at 9:12 AM, finished with 111 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Usum's plan, get line of sight on the van, put a spirit in it and make it stop working to get them off their loop
    [X] Answer the phone the next time it calls, get some answers as to what Broken Seeker wants before engaging, maybe you can shake him up
    -[X]Give Harry some of your hair to track you, just in case
    -[X]Have Clippy pull up a map of the local electrical substations for Chicago, find the one for the local district, fly over and HMP a key transformer: 1m
    [X] Usum's plan, get line of sight on the van, put a spirit in it and make it stop working to get them off their loop
    -[X] Use Harry's veil as a crown focus for a question "How can this be improved to hide magical emanations from the senses of a naagloshii known as Broken Seeker"
    --[X] Use Occult Excellency to better explain the results to Harry
    -[X] If Crown data doesn't give us essence, ask Harry or dad to share whatever arcane secret they can to do so.
    [X] Usum's plan, get line of sight on the van, put a spirit in it and make it stop working to get them off their loop
    -[X] Use Harry's veil as a crown focus for a question "How can this be improved to hide magical emanations from the senses of a naagloshii known as Broken Seeker"
    --[X] Use Occult Excellency to better explain the results to Harry
 
@DragonParadox, can we get some clarification on this ability?

Uju is correct, AFAIK, but the exact mechanic of this has never really been well defined, IIRC.

Does it work like this (I'm using the term 'mana' for ease of reference):

A) A Skinwalker has a personal mana pool, along with a mana pool consisting of stolen power. Their personal mana recovers normally, but any used from their pool of stolen mana can only be replenished through more wizard murder. This stolen power is also slowly depleted when they are outside of their home territory.

Or

B) A Skinwalker only has a single mana pool consisting of their own power and what they've stolen. Stealing mana permanently increases their base pool, but this base pool is also permanently depleted when mana is lost outside of their territory.
I would assume Option B.
At least, thats my working hypothesis based on the comments by Dresden and Morgan in Turn Coat after Shagnasty killed Kirby.
 
@DragonParadox, can we get some clarification on this ability?

Uju is correct, AFAIK, but the exact mechanic of this has never really been well defined, IIRC.

Does it work like this (I'm using the term 'mana' for ease of reference):

A) A Skinwalker has a personal mana pool, along with a mana pool consisting of stolen power. Their personal mana recovers normally, but any used from their pool of stolen mana can only be replenished through more wizard murder. This stolen power is also slowly depleted when they are outside of their home territory.

Or

B) A Skinwalker only has a single mana pool consisting of their own power and what they've stolen. Stealing mana permanently increases their base pool, but this base pool is also permanently depleted when mana is lost outside of their territory.

A skinwalker does not steal just abstract power, this thing is old and it is powerful, Harry describes it as 'its own leyline'. What it is more interested in is stealing abilities in much the same way that its servants steal shapes (technically it can also steal shapes by eating people, but it is skilled enough that for most humanoid shapes Broken Seeker can just work off trace DNA or even footage)
 
So what's the immediate reaction expected to be in either leading case?

Even the bad luck isn't going to stop Broken Seeker from launching contingencies to deal with the exposure.

We need some more details for step 2 on both plans.
 
Everyone can soak bashing. BUT some people soak bashing at a bonus.
For example, WoD vampires halve bashing damage after soak; if they were dealt, say, 6 bashing damage after soak, its halved to 3.They also treat gunfire as bashing damage. No regen.

Garou dont halve bashing, but when changed, they heal 1HL of bashing or lethal damage /combat round.
If you incapacitate them, though, they get one chance per scene to rage-heal at DC8 and remain active, or they fall unconscious, revert to normal shape and dont heal that Incap HL for around 8 hours, I think.
I know these things, they don't detract from the point that the vast majority of targets take more damage from aggravated over bashing, after all soaking is done.
 
A skinwalker does not steal just abstract power, this thing is old and it is powerful, Harry describes it as 'its own leyline'. What it is more interested in is stealing abilities in much the same way that its servants steal shapes (technically it can also steal shapes by eating people, but it is skilled enough that for most humanoid shapes Broken Seeker can just work off trace DNA or even footage)
Huh. Thats very interesting.
I am now intensely curious about talking to this dude before trying to cut its head off. The timing of its coming to Chicago to try its hand at Dresden is peculiar. Who is pulling that string?

Though I suspect that we wont get to kill it before it runs away.
Too many mobility options, too much preptime, too much risk of collateral damage.

I know these things, they don't detract from the point that the vast majority of targets take more damage from aggravated over bashing, after all soaking is done.
Thats overselling it.
The only people we're reasonably sure who would do that are Black Court vampires. Everyone else is up in the air.
 
Thats overselling it.
The only people we're reasonably sure who would do that are Black Court vampires. Everyone else is up in the air.
Almost every enemy we met so far soaks bashing better than aggravated.

The Will could only soak aggravated damage with Iron Mountain, while soaking bashing either full or full and then halved, with reduced DC from Iron Mountain.

The Raksha could only soak aggravated with his armor, not his full stamina+armor like her would soak bashing.

I don't know how Katrina soaked, admittedly.

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files) Crossover - Fantasy

This is what I have for the vampires and wizards, the fey I'll have to think about how to break it up Creature: White Court Vampire Soak: -Bashing: Full Stamina -Lethal: Half Stamina -Aggravated: Only through Disciplines or equipment/magic Specialities on Soak: Bullets deal full lethal damage...
Look at the mechanics post, everything in it soaks more bashing than aggravated.

I'm not saying bashing is useless, but it is certainly better to try and apply our flaming sword in most imaginable situations.
 
[X] Usum's plan, get line of sight on the van, put a spirit in it and make it stop working to get them off their loop
 
Think we could play circle games here?

Containment on short notice is a bust, but a powerful one tuned to magic popping up while they're driving would hit like a brick wall for everyone but the proper mortals until it got burst.
 
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