Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

For the social/infiltration vampires? That is precisely the sort of thing I would expect them to prioritize over the combat Disciplines.

Especially since its canon that Lara spent a significant portion of her earlier years travelling; she spent several years in Tokugawa Japan back when Japan was still isolated from the outside world between the seventeenth and nineteenth century. And then after that was a porn star for a while.

But Lara did not have it.
I dont find it particularly plausible this dude, at his age, with a Charisma + Etiquette pool of 4 dice, has Obfuscate 6: Soul Mask when she doesnt. Certainly not on his own mojo.
Again, Soul Mask (or any other protection from Aura-sight) is very much a niche power for things that want to hide their true nature as a Vampire.

Lara has a lot to hide, but in the vast majority of cases high Subterfuge and some social powers are more useful.

I agree that Vittorio's mastery of some trick in that direction is weird.
I'd even combine it with OOC knowledge to assume he might be having it to hide a possession or some basic change of his nature compared to other Whampires.

But it does not somehow make him more dangerous than Lara or our current targets here.
 
Even if we go for a crown question the occult excellency is wasteful.

Sure it makes us better at processing the answer, if it turns out to be related to supernatural phenomena directly which isn't guaranteed or even particularly implied by the situation, but we're still in the first scene of the party and haven't even gotten inside yet.

Do we really want to enter social combat with actual specialists like Lara and the diplo spec high nobles with one essence to spend before flaring?

Edit: error
 
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I'm willing to meet halfway on this. If the crown question is being given priority I'll add that to my plan, but leave the excellency off to preserve pre flare essence.

Fair warning on name voting though; I'm approval voting my initial plan as well.

[X] Plan Under the Gun
-[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
-[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: How is the owner of these items protected from your powers?
--[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
—-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".


[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
-[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".

I'm trying to figure out a plausible metaphysical workaround that could allow Vittorio to avoid some of the effects of our powers.
It's worth considering precisely what the charm does and how that interacts with the rest of the system.

hellsCry ChaKra (••)
Opening her inner eye and attuning it to spiritu-
al desolation, the Infernal gains the ability to detect potential servants or rivals, and to weigh the souls of those she meets.
System: Reflexively spend 1 Essence. For the rest of the scene, the Infernal becomes aware when she stands in the presence of any creature of darkness, though she doesn't inherently know what sort of su-
pernatural being any given individual may be. Further- more, by concentrating on a specific individual for a few moments and making a successful Perception + Occult roll against difficulty 6, she can behold the sub- tleties of their anima and learn their current emotional state, as well as some clues about their nature. If you wish to embellish this with aura colors and the like, a chart can be found on page 136 of V20.
The absolute part is Molly's awareness of CoDs she has to roll for the rest, which means it's possible for it to fail. That makes it being opposed a lot more reasonable. It also per the fluff is basically just enabling regular aura reading, which is an established ability that there are rules for resisting.
 
Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
Does that really matter? I was under the impression we weren't exactly subtle with the ancient magic and all. No doubt we have a shitload of people and creatures spying on us from every direction by now. Even if you want to cover up holes in security they could just use normal people besides. We have too many enemies and they have too many options for it to matter at this point.

I'll vote for it because I don't see a need to use Hellscry Chakra a second time on the same guy when we rolled so high firstly, but I really don't like asking about something so seemingly inane.
[X] Plan Under the Gun
 
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Does that really matter? I was under the impression we weren't exactly subtle with the ancient magic and all. No doubt we have a shitload of people and creatures spying on us from every direction by now. Even if you want to cover up holes in security they could just use normal people besides. We have too many enemies and they have too many options for it to matter at this point.

I'll vote for it because I don't see a need to use Hellscry Chakra a second time on the same guy when we rolled so high firstly, but I really don't like asking about something so seemingly inane.
[X] Plan Under the Gun
Yeah, it doesn't really matter itself. I'm using it as a vehicle to further needle Vittorio because he basically pulled baby's first intimidation play on us. He might as well have tried to threaten us with the contents of Molly's friends list on Facebook.

The extra dig may get us more information, but even if it doesn't it does make this situation hurt worse for him. Which is worth the minimal effort required in my eyes since he did just try to play the "I'm not touching you" game with threatening our dudes.
 
Replies will take a bit.
Does that really matter? I was under the impression we weren't exactly subtle with the ancient magic and all. No doubt we have a shitload of people and creatures spying on us from every direction by now. Even if you want to cover up holes in security they could just use normal people besides. We have too many enemies and they have too many options for it to matter at this point.

I'll vote for it because I don't see a need to use Hellscry Chakra a second time on the same guy when we rolled so high firstly, but I really don't like asking about something so seemingly inane.
[X] Plan Under the Gun
The point of doing so is because the guy's defenses degraded Hellscry Chakra, so we couldnt actually see what his aura looked like.

We rolled 11 successes on Hellscry Chakra.
Vittorio Malvora rolled 7 successes on a defense of some sort.
The difference we got is 4 successes.

Very Good, but not Legendary.

We didnt hit the 5 successes or better difference to see through his defenses properly.
Burning an Occult Excellency and repeating the Hellscry Chakra roll guarantees that we punch through at a difference of 5 successes or greater. Which should show us what he's hiding.

And we really need to see what he's hiding here.
Especially since the QM has confirmed we only get 1 secret from our Crown question.

This dude is heir to command of roughly a third of the White Court. It matters.
 
Again, Soul Mask (or any other protection from Aura-sight) is very much a niche power for things that want to hide their true nature as a Vampire.
Lara has a lot to hide, but in the vast majority of cases high Subterfuge and some social powers are more useful.

I agree that Vittorio's mastery of some trick in that direction is weird.
I'd even combine it with OOC knowledge to assume he might be having it to hide a possession or some basic change of his nature compared to other Whampires.

But it does not somehow make him more dangerous than Lara or our current targets here.
1)We dont actually know that this is Soul Mask. Furthermore, Soul Mask is Obfuscate 6. An Advanced/Elder Discipline.
Its in no way a niche power in this AU setting where supernaturals who see your soul/spirit abound, and its certainly eyeraising for a relative whipper snapper like Vittorio to be walking around with.

For comparison, see how many Kueijin or akuma are walking around with Level 6 Disciplines.


2)We dont know what he's hiding, so I cant say, which is why we want to see through his disciplines.
He doesnt need to be a personal combat threat to be dangerous.
If he can, say, whistle up a couple squads of Cornerhounds.

There's a reason why the deadliest military weapon is supposed to be a radio.


3)Vittorio Malvora canonically knocked out everyone in the Raith Deeps with one spell.
Including Lara, her sisters, Thomas, Dresden and Carlos Ramirez, as well as a bunch of Einherjar. Simultaneously.
Lash had to sacrifice herself to free Dresden temporarily from that spell.

Yes, he was channelling the power of an Outsider to do so. But he was given that power to wield.

It demonstrates that there's canon precedent for him to be the single deadliest thing in the room besides Molly and Lydia.
And like @Goldfish said, this might not even be Vittorio Malvora; might be an imposter. Or he could be dead and something else is driving his body. We dont know.
 
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[X] Try to push, find out where he knows the name of your vampires from
-[X] [Stunt]: With something almost playful leaking into her eyes Molly replies "Well if we're sharing idle speculation, then perhaps she just didn't feel the need to be so blunt about it".
-[X] Something in her tone shifts, just the right mix of not-quite-condescension and amusement to come off like she wanted to reach out and ruffle his hair "It was a cute little ice breaker, but I hope you don't mind me saying your technique could use some work".
 
Even if we go for a crown question the occult excellency is wasteful.

Sure it makes us better at processing the answer, if it turns out to be related to supernatural phenomena directly which isn't guaranteed or even particularly implied by the situation, but we're still in the first scene of the party and haven't even gotten inside yet.

Do we really want to enter social combat with actual specialists like Lara and the diplo spec high nobles with one essence to spend before flaring?

Edit: error
It isnt wasteful.
The Occult Excellency is for boosting our Hellscry Chakra. I quote:
Rolls
Hellscry
Discipline Eating your successes
Molly Charisma+Etiquette
Vampire Retort (He is not a social build as far as White Court Vampires go, but he is the heir to one of the Houses which means he gets +2 specialty dice in this)
We already tried the cheap way.

We activated Hellscry Chakra and rolled 9 dice(Perception 3 + Occult 5 + Stunt 1) for 11 successes.
Vittorio rolled 8 dice as a defence and got 7 successes.
That depleted our successes so we only got 4 threshold successes.

The result was, and I quote:
The aura you can see wrapped around him proves as oily as his words, a thing half seen and blurry, not that you are entirely sure you want to see deeper. The ruby-red of lust spreads and pools shot through with lines of green flame wiggling like maggots in flesh, obsession. Strangest of all their heads burn... gold. Even having never seen the color with this sight before you instinctively know it to be the fruit of deep insight, spiritual insight, revelation. To see it bloom from such unwholesome stock makes your stomach clench, to see it gleam in eyes that are so utterly fixed upon you makes you want to reconsider bowling him over.
The sentence use is very clear that there is more to see, but we didnt get enough threshold successes to see it.
The Occult Excellency is supposed to blow through whatever is obscuring our sight so we can see clearly; Hellscry Chakra goes from rolling 9 dice(Perception 3 + Occult 5 + Stunt 1) to rolling 17 dice(Perception 3 + Occult 5 + Stunt 1 + Excellency 8).

And given that we are familiar with the auras of White Court vampires, from the fledgelings of the Jade Dogs to the aura of Lara Raith herself, the fact that this one is giving us bad vibes is ominous.

So, briefly: Yes. Its necessary.
 
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Or you're dramatically overestimating HC again, as you have been since before we got the charm.
He's clearly sketchy, but in terms of our immediate concerns he isn't necessarily a drop everything problem.
.....
Vittorio Malvora canonically nuked everyone in the room during the climactic battle scenes of White Night with one Outsider-boosted spell.

Lara, Lara's sisters, Dresden, Carlos Ramirez, Marcone, Murphy, a couple squads of Einherjar, surviving White Court vampires and thralls? Vittorio took them all out with one spell. And still had the control to exclude his allied uberghouls from the effect.
Lash DIED to free Dresden from that spell.

And thats not even counting the fact that he had access to the Backgrounds: Allies 4 Uberghouls, Totem 5 Outsider and Mentor 5 Cowl. You are underestimating the potential problem here.

No it hasn't, we got WoQM a while back that Chicago was the first city they tried this in.
We also have more recent text a couple updates ago that they have been using murder as an initiation rite.
So retcon.

The white court is 80% secrets and intrigue by volume. Seriously, it's a major supernatural nation we'll be here for months if we can have no mysteries in our combat zone before starting. For all you know - and as far as your question can reach - the secret he considers most important is completely irrelevant to this situation.
Intrigue yes. Secrets less so, especially when pretty much every human minion is vulnerable to mindwhammy by random Whites. Literally one of the reasons Lara employs Justine is because she's one of a very few humans with protection against that sort of thing due to True Love.

Secrets have tiers.
A dude who is next in line for control of a third of the White Court's power giving us bad vibes right before a fight is very much a relevant feature to be investigated in our combat zone.

Or she doesn't care to, didn't know we could accurately read auras, or any of a dozen other things. You're jumping to conclusions on a single data point and a fistful of assumptions.
Most Dresdenverse spirits can read auras to greater or lesser extent.
Ulsharavas could read auras. Bob can read auras.
The Sight among other things, interprets auras, and Mab sure as hell knows that Molly was a wizard-tier before Exalting.

You are assuming a degree of incompetence on the part of Mab at a diplomatic meeting she called for that I find improbable.
 
You are assuming a degree of incompetence on the part of Mab at a diplomatic meeting she called for that I find improbable.
OOC, maybe the QM didn't consider Auravision-blocks for Mab so far?

As far as I know DP is not really a veteran of the system, such things can be overlooked, particularly since Mab isn't easy to portray in any WoD system, so a lot of effects have to be handcrafted for her, or for higher Winter Fey in general.
 
No, propably not.
But I seem to remember that you argued quite a bit that Thomas might have them?
Yes, combat Disciplines based on the displayed feats in the series.
But Thomas is supposed to be one of the strongest Whites of his generation we see in the series, even if he's almost never running on a full tank.

Vittorio has some canonical combat feats that arent all that far off what Dresden claims for Thomas.
And we know he's invested in magic mojo, with a human archmage mentor.
Where he's supposed to find the time and XP to triple-spec becomes an issue

EDIT
Seriously, in most situations Thomas would be a Mary Sue.
White Court vampire son of the royal family who is also the grandson of the Blackstaff and a spellworker in his own right, who survived being tortured by a naagloshii and running into the Wild Hunt, and is also a candidate for White Knight.
 
OOC, maybe the QM didn't consider Auravision-blocks for Mab so far?

As far as I know DP is not really a veteran of the system, such things can be overlooked, particularly since Mab isn't easy to portray in any WoD system, so a lot of effects have to be handcrafted for her, or for higher Winter Fey in general.
Yes, its possible the QM didnt consider it.

But literally Mab's first appearance in the series is in disguise as someone else in Dresden's office as a client.
So we know she can hide that if she wants to, even from a wizard across a table.
As long as you dont have the Sight open, at least.

Its the same sort of thing for other big hitters, like the Dragon Ferrovax that Dresden met at Bianca's party.
 
[X]Plan Double Take
-[X]Take another, closer look at the Malvora as he walks away, burning power to see what he's trying to hide
--[X]Repeat look with Hellscry Chakra + Occult Excellency + Stunt, then Crown question on his outfit
--[X]Occult Excellency: 1m
--[X]Crown Focus: Suit and accouterments. Question: What secrets is the owner/wearer of these items hiding?: 1m
-[X]Go speak to someone else in the crowd
--[X] A dark haired vampire with a familiar resemblance to Thomas who seems to have found your put down particularly funny
-[X]STUNT: Your senses, and those of your companion, follow the whampire as he walks away from you, a little faster than would be accounted normal. "Whats his deal?" Lydia asks, frowning at his retreating back, even as her hand traces out a different question on your wrist. "Not sure" is your reply, eyes intent as you consider, then dismiss calling after him.
Let's ask.

SPENT: 2m

STATUS
Essence: 12/15 Essence
Willpower: 8/9 Willpower
Essence spent so far this scene: 3/4

EFFECTS

Demonic Primacy of Essence: -2 DC to social interactions with lesser Creatures of Darkness
All Things Betray: -3 DC to all Perception rolls for the rest of the scene
Hellscry Chakra: See aura of Creatures of Darkness
Occult Excellency: Essence*minutes
 
Vittorio Malvora canonically nuked everyone in the room during the climactic battle scenes of White Night with one Outsider-boosted spell.

Lara, Lara's sisters, Dresden, Carlos Ramirez, Marcone, Murphy, a couple squads of Einherjar, surviving White Court vampires and thralls? Vittorio took them all out with one spell. And still had the control to exclude his allied uberghouls from the effect.
Lash DIED to free Dresden from that spell.
Never read the books so I didn't realize he was this dangerous. Dresden is no pushover in terms of will, and he knocked him out with a single spell? Thats scary Power right there. That makes this guy max priority.
[X]Plan Double Take
 
Never read the books so I didn't realize he was this dangerous. Dresden is no pushover in terms of will, and he knocked him out with a single spell? Thats scary Power right there. That makes this guy max priority.
[X]Plan Double Take
To be fair, Vito was hopped up on Outsider juice at the time, IIRC. That's probably not something he can use casually or without preparation.
 
I'm going to take the secrets question to be 'what is the most important secret the person is hiding'. Secrets plural would be more than one question
Fair. That works for me.

There's a big assumption here - that he is actually hiding things, rather than his shielding being a side-effect of his condition. Ie that there's a conscious effort to hide things, rather than his aura being shielded because of something else, like an effort to protect him from our influence, or him reaching golconda analogue, etc.
1) There's no condition Im aware of that he's suffering.
Besides possibly being possessed by an Outsider/having an Investiture by an Outsider or Old God.

2) He's hiding things.
There's no passive effect in the Dresden Files that obscures your own soul from observation, and from what I understand of VTM, you actually need to actively choose to learn those Advanced Discipline powers; they dont spontaneously pop up.

The interesting part is that he cant possibly have this up for Molly, since Molly only arrived on the scene less than half a year ago. Which suggests this was designed to hide him from other vampires, as well as other supernaturals.
Maybe wizards as well


2) The colors we can see in his aura make it clear that Golconda is not likely, shall we say.


3)Molly only Exalted less than six months ago
We saw his social rolls against Molly, and he isnt rocking any of the buffs or modifiers we know that Leinth had access to, so its safe to assume there's no protections there.
Never read the books so I didn't realize he was this dangerous. Dresden is no pushover in terms of will, and he knocked him out with a single spell? Thats scary Power right there. That makes this guy max priority.
[X]Plan Double Take
This was the scene where he cast the spell:
"That's all of ours!" shouted the soldier to Marcone. "Two minutes, fifteen seconds!"
He had to shout. The nearest of the ghouls were about ten feet away, doing battle against, for lack of a more cliched term, a thin white line of Raith, including my brother with his two blades spinning.
"Go!" Marcone said, and the soldier went through. Marcone, a fresh shotgun in hand, stepped up next to me. "Dresden?"
"What are you hanging around for?"
"If you recall," he said, "I agreed to extract you alive. I'm not leaving until I have done so." He paused and added, "Provided, of course, that it happens in the next two minutes."
From where I was standing, I could see three two-brick bundles of C4, detonators thrust into their soft surfaces, each fitted with old-fashioned precision timepieces. They were simple charges on the floor. The other three must have been shaped charges affixed to the cavern walls. I had no idea how much destruction was going to be wrought by them, but I didn't suppose it would be much fun to be there when they went boom. Alas, that the poor ghouls would most likely be staying for the fireworks.
"Thomas!" I called. "Time to go!"
"Go!" Thomas shouted, and the other vampires with him broke from their line and fled for the gate, except for one, a tall female Raith who…
I blinked. Holy crap. It was Lara.
The other vampires fled past me, through the gate, and Thomas and his sister stood alone against the horde of eight-foot ghouls. Stood against it, and stopped it cold.
Their skin gleamed colder and whiter than glacial ice, their eyes blazed silvery bright, and they moved with blinding speed and utterly inhuman grace. His saber fluttered and slashed, drawing a constant stream of blood, punctuated by devastating blows of his kukri.
(Ah, right, that was the name of that inward-bent knife. I knew I'd remember it eventually.)
Lara moved with him, trailing her damp, midnight hair and shredded silk kimono. She covered Thomas's back like a cloak hung from his shoulders. She was no weaker than her younger brother, and perhaps even faster, and the wavy-bladed short sword in her hand had a penchant for leaving spills of ghoulish entrails in its wake. Together, the pair of them slipped aside from repeated rushes and dealt out deadly violence to one foe after another.
Ultimately, I think, their fight was futile—and all the more valiant and astonishing for being so doomed. No matter how lethal Thomas and Lara proved to be, or how many ghouls went screaming to the floor, their black blood continued to slither back into their fallen bodies, and the ghouls that had been taken down continued to gather themselves together to rise and fight again. Most of those who reentered the fight with renewed vigor and increased fury remained hideously maimed in some way. Some trailed their entrails like slimy grey ropes. Others were missing sections of their skulls. At least two entered the fray armless, simply biting with their wide jaws of vicious teeth. Beside the beauty of the brother and sister vampires, the ghouls' deformed bodies and hideous injuries were all the more monstrous, all the more vile.
"My God," Marcone said, his voice hushed. "It is the most beautiful nightmare I have ever seen."
He was right. It was hypnotic. "Time?" I asked him, my voice rough.
He consulted his own stopwatch. "One minute, forty-eight seconds."
"Thomas!" I bellowed. "Lara! Now!"
With that, the pair of them bounded apart, apparently the last thing the ghouls had been expecting, and dashed for the gate.
I turned to go—and that was when I felt it.
There was a dull pulse, a throb of some power that seemed at once alien and familiar, a sickening, whirling sensation and then a sudden stab of energy.
It wasn't a magical attack. An attack implies an act of force that might be predicted, countered, or at least mitigated in some way. This was something far more existential. It simply asserted itself, and by its very existence, it dictated a new reality.
A spike of thought slammed into my being like a physical blow—it wasn't any one single thought. It was, instead, a melange of them, a cocktail of emotions so heavy, so dense, that it drove me instantly to my knees. Despair flooded through me. I was so tired. I had struggled and fought to achieve nothing but raw chaos, rendering the whole of my effort useless. My only true friends had been badly injured, or had run, leaving me in this hellish cavern. Those who currently stood beside me were monsters, of one stripe or another—even my brother, who had returned to his monstrous ways in feeding on other human beings.
Terror followed hard on its heels. I had been paralyzed, while surrounded by monsters of resilience beyond description. In mere seconds, they would fall on me. I had fallen with my face toward the gate, and though physical movement was beyond me, I could see that everyone, everyone had also pitched over onto the ground, vulnerable to the attack while the gate remained open. Vampires, thralls, and mortal warriors alike, they had all fallen.
Guilt came next. Murphy. Carlos. I had gotten them both killed.
Useless. It had all been useless.
Marcone's stopwatch lay on the ground near his limply outstretched hand. He'd fallen next to me. The second hand was sweeping rapidly downward, and the watches on the charges of C4, the nearest of them about ten feet away, did the same.
Then I understood it. This was Vittorio Malvora's attack. This hideous, paralyzing brew of everything darkest in the moral soul was what he had poured out, as the Raith administered desire, the Malvorans gave fear, and the Skavis despair. Vitto had gone beyond them all. He had taken all the worst of the human soul and forged it into a poisonous, deadly weapon.
And I hadn't been able to do a damned thing to stop him.

I lay staring at Marcone's stopwatch, and wondered which would kill us all first: the ghouls or the explosion.
Like @Goldfish said, he was mainlining Outsider mojo at the time by word of Lash.
But the Outsiders dont give power to just anyone either.
 
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To be fair, Vito was hopped up on Outsider juice at the time, IIRC. That's probably not something he can use casually or without preparation.
Something to keep in mind to be sure but we don't know if he's high on "Outsider juice" as we speak or what constitutes as prep to pull bullshit like that off.
 
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Something to keep in mind to be sure but we don't know if he's high on "Outsider juice" as we speak or what constitutes as prep to pull bullshit like that off.
This is true.

Borrowing power to elevate your threat level is a well-established tactic in the Dresden Files.
Dresden didnt murder the Red Court in canon with his own magical muscle, after all, but channeled the Winter Knight Mantle, in addition to gathering all three Swords to his side, and an array of allies.

And even such heavy hitters as the Denarians didnt take down the Archive with their own power, but had to borrow mojo and technical expertise from Hell.

I think that in general, its a mistake to evaluate the threat-level of people who are backed by/have access to the resources of a major supernatural power or nationstate purely on the basis of their personal combat threat.
When they can summon allies or channel a powerup or download skills and knowledge.

For example, Vittorio could be the scrawniest Whampire around, but if he was bonded to a squad of Cornerhounds as on call familiars, or a couple mistfiends, it doesnt matter. At that point, if you cant manage some sneaky endrun to cap him, you need elder wizard-equivalent firepower and expertise on your side.
 
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