Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

On the whole "they might get targeted if we give their names to the cops" - they have already been targeted

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It took time and effort to get those names.
And there's a suggestion that part of the reason they tried to kidnap Dr Jackson was to interrogate her for names and info to approach Cauldron with.

That's a very different matter when you pool that info in one known unprotected location. Like I said earlier, the Nightmare walked into Murphy's office in the daytime wearing Dresden's face, mindfucked her, KO'd a bunch of responding officers, and walked out. Police departments aren't particularly secure in-universe. They rely on the certainty of retaliation for fuckery

And this isn't accounting for human greed.
If a contact offered $10k for all the names that Lt Murphy is so interested in, can you swear to all 50x SI members being able to resist temptation ? What of the 911 operators who have to recognize these names and phone numbers? We already know Rudolph sold out Murphy and SI for a transfer to a different department, so it's not a hypothetical scenario.

Journalists get cops to talk without waving a month's salary around. I dont have all that much confidence in the idea that spreading their names around CPD will make them safer.

If you are worried about that then we can offer to put a cyber d in her phone. It can keep an eye on her let us know if she is being put under any mind whammy. In fact it can also let her know if she has been put under any mind whammy.

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All that does is let us know after the fact that she was whammied. It doesn't prevent it.
And it assumes she's carrying her phone always.

And frankly, we consider it intrusive for parents and spouses to put monitoring software on the phones of their spouses and children. I dont see how you can expect an adult police officer who deals in confidential info to carry around a recording device that answers to a third party that shes not mandated to by law.

 

[Acolyte]

Nah man, i don't trust murphy Acab and all that. Also she js relatively powerless, she needs to get good.

 

[fictionfan]

And frankly, we consider it intrusive for parents and spouses to put monitoring software on the phones of their spouses and children. I dont see how you can expect an adult police officer who deals in confidential info to carry around a recording device that answers to a third party that shes not mandated to by law.

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A cyber devil in your phone at least offers you as much benefits as google does in return for spying on you and we aren't going to sell the information to third parties.

 

[Yog]

I'm pretty sure he wrote the letters

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This doesn't detract from my point at all, even if we can't be sure about that.

It took time and effort to get those names.

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Doesn't matter - the information is there already. Who says other factions hasn't spent time and effort to acquire similar information? Even if they don't, the bad guys have the information already.

And there's a suggestion that part of the reason they tried to kidnap Dr Jackson was to interrogate her for names and info to approach Cauldron with.

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That's speculation at best. And one very unlikely to be true - if they spent enough time to monitor her, they'd find her other associates through simple observation.

My point is that order of Cauldron's information security can be, at the most generous, described as "amateur hour". At worst it's "completely non-existent". Any government agency worth its money should be able to find them all easily enough.

 

[OctarineShrike]

Idea for crafting project. Get Murphy some kind of mind-shield.

 

[uju32]

A cyber devil in your phone at least offers you as much benefits as google does in return for spying on you.

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Not everyone considers Google a good trade.

And Cyberdevils are way more intrusive than Google.
They literally surveil everything that goes on around them, from conversations to activities to phonecalls. It's like carrying a constantly recording multispectral bodycamera everywhere you go, whose data is accessible to other people.

Do you want a second presence with you in the bedroom? In the toilet? When youre eating? Talking to family or a confidential informant? Having sex?

 

[uju32]

Doesn't matter - the information is there already. Who says other factions hasn't spent time and effort to acquire similar information? Even if they don't, the bad guys have the information already.

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Does matter.
Information needs to be gathered and collated by multiple people without being detected. Significant difference between doing weeks or months of footwork and suborning one person.

Other factions such as who?
Odin, Winter and Summer won't share for free, assuming they have it. The Black and Red Court has no presence in Chicago, and neither do the Fomor. The White Council doesnt know because Dresden doesnt know.

That's speculation at best. And one very unlikely to be true - if they spent enough time to monitor her, they'd find her other associates through simple observation.

My point is that order of Cauldron's information security can be, at the most generous, described as "amateur hour". At worst it's "completely non-existent". Any government agency worth its money should be able to find them all easily enough.

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Speculation supported by evidence.

The manner of her attempted abduction implies an effort to keep her alive and conscious instead of just going for incapacipation. And given that there was an active attempt to keep this operation secret not just from outsiders but from the White Court, they had limited people to call on. They cant just follow everyone she meets around.


Governments have vast but limited resources and have to try to prioritize between competing demands. Nor are they unified hiveminds; there are individual fiefs that often have different, sometimes clashing priorities.

The FBI for example employs less than 40k people nationwide for all its duties.
Obscurity matters.

 

[Yog]

Obscurity matters.

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But they are not obscure. Not that obscure at least. They actively seek out new members of the community and offer advice. Rose of Autumn maintains online presence on relevant platforms and responds to inquiries about magical topics.

And they are also our known associates. If anyone thinks that by now LoC hasn't obtained our phone records (and likely internet search history, unless Clippy is using good VPN services) over the last year at least, and pulled on those threads, I have a bridge to sell you.

Helen (the one from Sells case, I might be mistaking the name) was likely on a Daedalus watchlist through her connection with Dresden already. The moment she came in contact with us, that likely pinged some responses.

 

[Yog]

Idea for crafting project. Get Murphy some kind of mind-shield.

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I certainly hope that we can get some police or special forces gear from out kingdom for Dresden, Murphy and others. It would probably include at least minor protective enchantments.

 

[uju32]

But they are not obscure. Not that obscure at least. They actively seek out new members of the community and offer advice. Rose of Autumn maintains online presence on relevant platforms and responds to inquiries about magical topics.

And they are also our known associates. If anyone thinks that by now LoC hasn't obtained our phone records (and likely internet search history, unless Clippy is using good VPN services) over the last year at least, and pulled on those threads, I have a bridge to sell you.

Helen (the one from Sells case, I might be mistaking the name) was likely on a Daedalus watchlist through her connection with Dresden already. The moment she came in contact with us, that likely pinged some responses.

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Molly spent two or three years after learning she had magic looking for instruction and never stumbled across them in this AU. Canon Dresden knew one or two on sight in passing at Mac's but never figured out the organization existed. Theyre obscure. Their membership is obscure. Their collective profile is going to rise, but its currently obscure.


Cauldrons membership isnt public either.
Neither is it's governance structure.


I'll take that bet.
I dont see the LoC being quite so reckless as to attempt to spy on someone who got a contract off Odin at short notice and solo'd a greater emissary of Yomi Wan. While trying to cultivate a relationship. They haven't survived two hundred years by being reckless. It is as unlikely as assuming they have copies of Dresden's phone records.

Not to mention theyd actually need a warrant to pull your phone records, and the SCD is not law enforcement, and generally dont want to come to the notice of the court system.


Daedalus are spectacularly ill-informed. Or rather underinformed if you prefer.
I would make no such assumption. Especially since Helen Beckitt went to jail on drug trafficking charges, not anything to do with magic. Victor Sells being a sorcerer would be in no CPD files.


Furthermore, Helen currently works for John Marcone, the known head of the Chicago Outfit in her day job as a brothel madam health gym manager. She is likely known to the Organized Crime divisions of both the CPD and FBI. Which you can see would be a problem for a police department to see her phone number and that of her associates receiving special service. The sort of problem that involves detailed explanations to Internal Affairs, suspensions and possibly a grand jury.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Doesn't matter - the information is there already. Who says other factions hasn't spent time and effort to acquire similar information? Even if they don't, the bad guys have the information already.

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How do you know that? For that matter how does someone like Madrigal know that?

It's not like they get full confirmation of all their information as they would with a list. Even if they have it, one faction having it doesn't mean anyone else does.

They do actively recruit and do stuff in the community, but that highlights individuals. An attacker still has to pick them out, pick them up, and convert that into more information.

That's work that takes resources from other things and gives an opportunity to notice and reply. Arguably the gap between one member getting hit and another being exploitable is the fundamental defensive tool of the Ordo.

All of which is secondary, because regardless of any other factor they have the right to make the choice themselves.

 

[the DragonBard]

[X] You cannot share any names with her at this time
-[X] Earning the Order's trust was no small matter, so we won't risk damaging that by handing out their information without first learning whether they wish to share it. If they do, then we'll reach out and give Murphy the contact details for someone.

 

[fictionfan]

Speculation supported by evidence.

The manner of her attempted abduction implies an effort to keep her alive and conscious instead of just going for incapacipation. And given that there was an active attempt to keep this operation secret not just from outsiders but from the White Court, they had limited people to call on. They cant just follow everyone she meets around.

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You don't need elaborate justifications for why a white court vampire that feeds on fear might try and play with it's food.

 

[uju32]

You don't need elaborate justifications for why a white court vampire that feeds on fear might try and play with it's food.

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The point of this was kidnap and murder, not feeding. Even if the point was to feed, kidnapping the person to torture at leisure was far greater payoff than looming in an alleyway.

Besides, predators only play with their food when they are teaching their young to hunt. Or when they are already full. And even then, they try to disable the victim first because a potential victim can still fuck you up.

Case in point.

 

[fictionfan]

The point of this was kidnap and murder, not feeding. Even if the point was to feed, kidnapping the person to torture at leisure was far greater payoff than looming in an alleyway.

Besides, predators only play with their food when they are teaching their young to hunt. Or when they are already full. And even then, they try to disable the victim first

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I know what the point was, but when feeding on fear playing with food is part of the hunt. And wc ego trip all the time. You keep ascribed super competence to our enemies, but often their mistakes can be ascribed to sadism or ego it is how more then half of Harry's enemies lose in the end.

 

[uju32]

I know what the point was, but when feeding on fear playing with food is part of the hunt. And wc ego trip all the time. You keep ascribed super competence to our enemies, but often their mistakes can be ascribed to sadism or ego it is how more then half of Harry's enemies lose in the end.

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You are ascribing incompetence to our enemies in the absence of any corroborating evidence.

They stalked and researched their victim for days if not weeks, to find her and her schedule.
They set up a cover story pointing at religious nutjobs.
They brought a getaway driver, and a clean burner phone.
They brought a backup firearm instead of relying on vampiric supremacy.
There is no personally identifiable information on their person or in their wallet.

They have demonstrated better than basic task competence here.


The onus is on other people to demonstrate that in spite of all this, they were so fucking incompetent as to stop to indulge on that particular kidnap victim.
Instead of feeding on someone else before this and not showing up to a snatch job while hungry.

Yes, a lot display hubris and arrogance.
But it's not guaranteed, and many of them are quite competent.

 

[fictionfan]

There is a reason Nicodemus is such a threat. About none of the bad guys ever have his sense of professionalism or competence.

And now you are saying that they did all that without finding out who the other members of the Ordo are. That would require extreme incompetence.

 

[uju32]

There is a reason Nicodemus is such a threat. About none of the bad guys ever have his sense of professionalism or competence.

And now you are saying that they did all that without finding out who the other members of the Ordo are. That would require extreme incompetence.

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Nicodemus is a threat because he's professional AND he has the intelligence feed of a senior Fallen specialized for intelligence gathering. And as was demonstrated in Small Favor and Skin Game, even he has his moments.


This is a brutally Darwinian deathworld. Many bad guys can't rely on other baddies not to shank them if they falter. Many a bad guy would not even survive long enough to become a Dresden problem if they werent competent within their specialty.


Yes?
Because a snatch job and interrogation tells them the IDs of everyone else in Cauldron, after which they can disappear her or stage her death. Entirely reasonable maneuver, especially since they know fuckall about Molly's ability to gather information.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I know what the point was, but when feeding on fear playing with food is part of the hunt. And wc ego trip all the time. You keep ascribed super competence to our enemies, but often their mistakes can be ascribed to sadism or ego it is how more then half of Harry's enemies lose in the end.

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Kidnapping to get information isn't exactly super competence. Sure this guy feeds on fear, but he was on the clock not hunting for sport.

If he was screwing around like that when running a job that'd be a sign of incompetence more than anything else.

I also haven't seen a good answer from you on the other part of this.

The Ordo are allies, not minions or enemies. Making decisions for them to serve our agenda, even if it's probably beneficial to them, is unethical and actively counterproductive.

Why do you think it's necessary to push here and in this way instead of taking a more measured approach to the same end?

It's not like SI giving priority to Ordo calls will help them here and now. We've seen vampiric assault squads literally eat their way through buildings full of them, a few squad cars aren't stopping shit.

There are benefits, but this isn't time critical because almost none of what they can rush into service will actually make a difference.

 

[fictionfan]

This is a brutally Darwinian deathworld. Many bad guys can't rely on other baddies not to shank them if they falter. Many a bad guy would not even survive long enough to become a Dresden problem if they werent competent within their specialty.

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They respect each other, but not human prey. There is a reason that M dieing from a victim was entirely believable.

 

[Goldfish]

The biggest reason we should assume competence in our enemies, at least in this latest situation, is because we already know how well it worked in canon. Without the butterflies we've introduced, the BBEG plot lasted for months longer and saw dozens of minor practitioners killed before it ever came to light exactly what was happening.

 

[firefrog600]

The biggest reason we should assume competence in our enemies, at least in this latest situation, is because we already know how well it worked in canon. Without the butterflies we've introduced, the BBEG plot lasted for months longer and saw dozens of minor practitioners killed before it ever came to light exactly what was happening.

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Though we've really gotta question the thought process of this being a proof of concept for war with the white council. Since they are hunting mostly minor talents who you know don't have the long history and practice of the white council, the numbers, the training, the expertise, and the talent that the council can demand from its members.

its like killing a rookie marine as proof of concept for killing seal team six. But, on a far larger scale. Given I'm sure the ones on the plan are not all doing it for the same reason, are probably taking into account the red court war and an alliance with them against the white council, and some probably know it sounds doomed to fail or at least a lose lose situation. I kinda expect some might be nemesis infected since this sounds like a great plan to weaken realities defenses at least tangentially for future plots.

 

[fictionfan]

Good thing white court vampire don't count as human or we would have to be talking about the lawbreakers problem.

 

[uju32]

They respect each other, but not human prey. There is a reason that M dieing from a victim was entirely believable.

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You can't turn your back on other bad guys.
The Black Court's downfall was engineered by the White Court back when Lord Raith ran. Baddies will happily take advantage of other baddies whenever possible.

 

[uju32]

Though we've really gotta question the thought process of this being a proof of concept for war with the white council. Since they are hunting mostly minor talents who you know don't have the long history and practice of the white council, the numbers, the training, the expertise, and the talent that the council can demand from its members.

its like killing a rookie marine as proof of concept for killing seal team six. But, on a far larger scale. Given I'm sure the ones on the plan are not all doing it for the same reason, are probably taking into account the red court war and an alliance with them against the white council, and some probably know it sounds doomed to fail or at least a lose lose situation. I kinda expect some might be nemesis infected since this sounds like a great plan to weaken realities defenses at least tangentially for future plots.

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They're immortals. They think longterm.

Magic, to the best of IC knowledge is inherited from mothers. The point was to kill off the female minor talents who are the parents and grandparents of the next generation of wizards, preventing the White Council from recovering its casualties from the war with the Reds.

Essentially, they tried to demonstrate that the White Court could do to the White Council what they did to the Black Court of vampires.


I suspect it wouldn't have worked the way they planned, given as Humanity keeps sexing all sorts of magical entities. Their understanding of magic heredity might even be wrong. And the White God and his agents probably would have an opinion, as would other factions in the setting who know why the White Council is important.

But it would have certainly gotten thousands of female talents killed, and kicked off an even bigger war. Naturally, the sort of thing the Black Council and the Walkers wanted.