Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Something that could make life easier for minor practitioners? Aside from training charms.
What minor practitioners probably need more than anything else is a method to disguise themselves as wholly mundane. IIRC, they're more often preyed upon by supernatural critters because they have enough power to be an attractive meal/victim/plaything but not enough power to adequately defend themselves.

Something simple, like a ring or amulet, which could be worn to hide one's magic from cursory detection would probably be popular. If it worked for full practitioners as well, that would just be gravy.

I have no clue if creating anything like that would be possible for us, though.
 
Oh and since you guys were talking earlier about solars having an unfair advantage in surviving, I'm just going to leave this charm here

Splintered Gale Incarnation (•••••)
The Infernal flays herself apart, creating duplicates of herself.
Yes, yes. I could absolutely believe that Molly would acquire that charm for reasons entirely unrelated to her canon 'Seduce Uncle Dresden' kick that we barely averted here. *Cough*

Moving on.
 
Im pretty sure he's looked on her with True Sight and suffered no damage back during the events of Dead Beat, when she was masquerading as Sheila. Thats a lot closer to what the Fallen are in metaphysical weight than the naagloshii.

Sheila was a hallucination Lash was inducing, not an avatar. Looking at her with the sight would show him the room without her in it. His eyes look at what's on front of him, so he can't use it to get information on things that are entirely within his own head. The best he could do is use it on a coin, which he never attempts.
 
Yes, yes. I could absolutely believe that Molly would acquire that charm for reasons entirely unrelated to her canon 'Seduce Uncle Dresden' kick that we barely averted here. *Cough*

Moving on.
I hope we can lessen Molly's romantic interest in Dresden, and hopefully, put a stop to it entirely, or at least divert it to other targets and leave the poor good wizard alone. I'd even accept something like a relationship with one of the White Court, as a normal member can't do much for the Infernal's amount of life force (it should fall under the same rules as the Vampires from Exalted Vs Word of Darkness).

Can someone who's actually read the books tell me if Molly really didn't realize the obvious problems with this relationship (the big age difference, he doesn't want a relationship with her, he already has a daughter and has been burned several times by different relationships, he not wanting a relationship with her, the possible strain that such a relationship could put on the working relationship between her father and Dresden, him not wanting a relationship with her) or hormones had made her ignore everything and think that if she managed to conquer him would all turn out well in the end?

(As you can see I really can't stand people who don't understand many tips and keep thinking "if I try harder he/she will eventually fall in love with me")

If she weren't a teenager, and it went against her character, I would vote to abandon this pursuit of a specific romantic relationship and focus on magically/influently/socially developing in the supernatural world. But things being what they are at least with her reaction to knowing what Thomas is about and her interest at the time, we have a hope of diverting her interest to something that causes less trouble (and makes me feel less like banging my head on a wall)
 
Molly had a strong crush and while she did suppress it other than the utter disaster of her initial attempt to impress and seduce him, it stayed with her long after she stopped showing signs. She just got good at pretending.

As far as I can tell the affection is genuine in canon, it was just simply never a good time for it ever due to power dynamics issues. First age, then the Teacher-Student relationship, then the whole mess with Suicide By Apprentice and then Winter.

Canon Harry's love life was practically cursed:
-Elaine - He thought he killed her, then later became and stayed at arm's length.
-Susan - It started out as just a reporter charming more info out of a source, and then some lust potion and vampires later it became genuine, until her death.
-Luccio - Literally mind controlled into it while vulnerable.
-Murphy - Baggage from past relationships, and then it was never a good time due to the Susan situation, followed by his attempted suicide.
-Molly - See above.
 
On the subject of Permadeath, in Exalted Infernals have access to a charm (either Malfeas or Cecylene) that lets them permakill situationally. If I recall it applied to spirits, gods, mortals, and raksha. Not sure about Creatures of Death though. It cannot apply to anything above 1st circle in a hierarchy.

However, in our Kakuri charms we have something that while it technically isn't permadeath it is equivalent in that it eternally sends victims to Gay Baby Jail, and should apply to nearly everything.
 
Is it necessary for Molly's Shintai form to be 'monstrous' or at least obviously inhuman? With her upbringing and cultural influences, including anime and science fiction, along with memories of her father the Knight of the Cross in his armor, could her Shintai form appear to be a form of power armor? Or maybe something bio-mechanical, like a Guyver's armor?
I think it does have to be inhuman. In the Devil-Tyrant Avatar it doesn't have to be big and it is recognisable as Molly, but still.
Here's the description of Shintai in general:
A monster sleeps within the Essence of each of the Infernal Exalted: the shadow of the Demon Emperor they might become should they ascend to a throne above the Earth with the dawning of the Sixth Age. This is the Shintai form, a god-body state that the Infernal can assume with a great expenditure of energy and will.
This does not say that the Shintai is the Infernal's idea of a powerful new form made manifest, it is a shadow of our future god-body should we follow the path of the Infernal Exaltation to the very end.

And here's the description of the most human shintai-form:
Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai
The character assumes a modified version of her own human form, studded with inhuman features and surging with demonic power, but still fundamentally recognizable as the Infernal. She may wear an ever-burning crown of flames upon her brow and grow wicked blades from her forearms, or sprout a lashing tail and venom-dripping wings, or extend all of her limbs into barbed and segmented nightmares, but her face remains her own and her general shape is still humanoid.
Speaks for itself, IMO.

I think we should lean into the eldritch or demonic themes that Infernals have anyway, rather than trying to design something maximally human.
Ultimatly we are the heir of the Yozi and transhumanism is the point and the fun of going full Infernal.

If you want to be human but better and in a shiny armor, that's what Solar's are for.
If you want human but with a goth-look and edgy names for all their tricks, that's Abyssal.

We are becoming the silent killing wind, or the brazen city-monster, or the acid-tentacle sea, or the living shadow and cold, or the endless desert (now filled with burrowing maggots because the new aesthetics for Cecyline-Charms suck).
Which does not mean we have to fully become either of these things, eventually the Infernal can choose their own aesthetics in accordance to their own Hell, but that too should not be human.
 
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The trick is to make magic nerd things involving extreme detail craftsmanship and sell it to him for his enchantments.
True.
She can do it 5-10x times faster as well. Remains to be seen if she can do it without imprinting her magic on it.

The Fallen slapped him out of the Gaze. I assume as part of the Rules, the Fallen cannot intervene directly, or it might have done more.
No idea.
The Fallen regularly cheat whenever they can so Im not so sure thats what happened there.
Speaking of the Fallen, you'll see a lot of overlap between what Nicodemus can do, and the Infernal charms in the sourcebook.

Harry specifically makes a note that distance and that their attention was directed to the battle helped a lot. Even at great distance he was knocked off balance, even if he managed to recenter himself afterwards.

The main issue, IMO, is the memory component. You cannot let it erode with time, what you have Seen cannot be unseen. You have to figure out a way to fit it into your brainpan.
The Naagloshi is both far closer and specifically fucking with him under the veil
Huh, I was right.
The naagloshii was deliberately weaponizing its impact. :)
Something that could make life easier for minor practitioners? Aside from training charms.
Nothing that requires a baby Demon-Emperor of Hell to pull off.

What minor practitioners probably need more than anything else is a method to disguise themselves as wholly mundane. IIRC, they're more often preyed upon by supernatural critters because they have enough power to be an attractive meal/victim/plaything but not enough power to adequately defend themselves.

Something simple, like a ring or amulet, which could be worn to hide one's magic from cursory detection would probably be popular. If it worked for full practitioners as well, that would just be gravy.
I have no clue if creating anything like that would be possible for us, though.
As a rule, supernatural predators dont routinely hunt even minor mages.
If anything, they avoid the magically aware, for the same reason that animal predators preferentially hunt the young, the weak and so on; the unaware are easier targets, and there's much less risk of a fatal surprise.

Until the Fomor, nobody preyed on minor talents, and the Fomor were kidnapping them to make soldiers instead of just food.

The most important thing minor talents need is information.
Curated list of best practices. Safehouses in major cities. Updated watchlist of dangerous entities, and contacts for safe harbor. Tracker for deaths and disappearances, rapid alert system for emergencies, and a phone number to call for backup from heavyhitters.

This is stuff that any bunch of funded and motivated normals can do. No superpowers needed.
Thats why the ParaNet was set up.

Sheila was a hallucination Lash was inducing, not an avatar. Looking at her with the sight would show him the room without her in it. His eyes look at what's on front of him, so he can't use it to get information on things that are entirely within his own head. The best he could do is use it on a coin, which he never attempts.
Remind me to find you references tomorrow if you want them.

I hope we can lessen Molly's romantic interest in Dresden,
Let me preface this by saying I dont really care very much. Crushes are crushes, and a lot of people have them and outgrow them.
That said?

Molls is a teenager.
17 year olds are allowed to be foolish; adults like Dresden are supposed to know better.
And iirc Dresden was unaware of her crush at this point in time.

From Molly's perspective, Harry Dresden is only ~13 years older than she is according to the Dresdenverse timeline.
Thats about a year or two more than the age gap between her parents. He's not her teacher, a family member, or anything similar; there isnt any grounds from her perspective to consider him inappropriate.

His daughter Maggie is 2, and right now the only person who knows she exists is Susan.

You arent grokking the timescale of wizard lives here.
Wizards who customarily live hundreds of years barring death by misadventure. They will outlive their greatgrandchildren.
Morgan held a torch for Anastascia Luccio for more than a hundred years, from the nineteenth century into the twenty-first.

Unless one of them dies early, they are going to know each other for a very long time.


Soulgaze and True Sight are essentially the same thing, btw, only that one is two-way.
Grave Peril chapter 35
But even if that gaze hadn't trapped me, hadn't gone all the way over into hypnosis, it made something occur to me: Susan's memories of the soulgaze hadn't been removed. My godmother couldn't have touched those. I was such an idiot. When a mortal looks on something with the Sight, really looks, as a wizard may, the memories of what he sees are indelibly imprinted on him. And when a wizard looks into a person's eyes, it's just another way of using the Sight. A two-way use of it, because the person you look at gets to peer back at you, too.

Susan and I had soulgazed more than two years before. She'd tricked me into it. It was just after that she began pursuing me for stories more closely.

Lea couldn't have taken memories around a soulgaze. But she could have covered them up, somehow, misted them over. No practical difference, for the average person.
But, hell, I'm a wizard. I ain't average.
 
Question here is:
Does treatment affect those healing times at all?

I think they should proportional to what they do for mortals. I mean if you have a gaping wound in your stomach as an Exalted it should be easier to heal if you stitch it up. I'll have to look up the wound times in the rules, probably in vampire since that is what I am using as a base rule book

Let me preface this by saying I dont really care very much. Crushes are crushes, and a lot of people have them and outgrow them.
That said?

Molls is a teenager.
17 year olds are allowed to be foolish; adults like Dresden are supposed to know better.
And iirc Dresden was unaware of her crush at this point in time.

I am going to say this much because Molly is good enough at socials now to get a read on him, there is no way on God's Green Earth Dresden does not know she is flirting with him. It has probably been obvious since the shower borrowing episode, which Molly now thinks may have been going a little too fast. Again this is not canon Molly, she has been gifted by the dark powers out of deep time with transcendent powers, the self-confidence building demon and a level of willpower few mortals can match she may have a crush but that does not mean she will try to pursue it the same way.
 
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[X] Plan 'Totally Normal Girl Having Totally Normal Reactions'
-[X] Hug your dad. Gently. Ask if he's OK.
-[X] Clarify that you're OK.
-[X] Thank McCoy and introduce yourself (politely).

Let me preface this by saying I dont really care very much. Crushes are crushes, and a lot of people have them and outgrow them.
That said?

Molls is a teenager.
17 year olds are allowed to be foolish; adults like Dresden are supposed to know better.
And iirc Dresden was unaware of her crush at this point in time.
I know, who cares about a teenage crush or two, and I also know she can't know right now about how Drsden's romantic life is cursed and he's been burned multiple times for that, my desire to begin to change Molly's target of interest is (I haven't read all the books so I'm going by what I was told and what veekie said) that she, even knowing all these problems and finding out a little bit of his bad past, still kept sighing for himself her knowing he didn't want any relationship with her. It gives me a "I can fix him" feeling and I really don't like it.

If she had accepted that nothing would happen between them for several reasons, totally valid, if she was sad and then decided to keep a relationship of friends with him I would not say anything, and not remain the same over the years and new information.

As far as I can tell the affection is genuine in canon, it was just simply never a good time for it ever due to power dynamics issues. First age, then the Teacher-Student relationship, then the whole mess with Suicide By Apprentice and then Winter.

Canon Harry's love life was practically cursed:
-Elaine - He thought he killed her, then later became and stayed at arm's length.
-Susan - It started out as just a reporter charming more info out of a source, and then some lust potion and vampires later it became genuine, until her death.
-Luccio - Literally mind controlled into it while vulnerable.
-Murphy - Baggage from past relationships, and then it was never a good time due to the Susan situation, followed by his attempted suicide.
-Molly - See above.
Thats about a year or two more than the age gap between her parents. He's not her teacher, a family member, or anything similar; there isnt any grounds from her perspective to consider him inappropriate.
As I indicated above my problem is that even when there were several indicators that the relationship was inappropriate/unwanted she continued to desire him, which leads me to believe that even if she knew this in the beginning it would not change her performance at all.

You arent grokking the timescale of wizard lives here.
Wizards who customarily live hundreds of years barring death by misadventure. They will outlive their greatgrandchildren.
Morgan held a torch for Anastascia Luccio for more than a hundred years, from the nineteenth century into the twenty-first.

Unless one of them dies early, they are going to know each other for a very long time.
And about the age difference I didn't focus too much on it because my big problem remains that Molly ignores Dresden's will not to have that kind of relationship with her when he finds out her crush on him, as if his will doesn't matter/ he didn't know anything, which detonates one of the personal mines.

But going into it anyway, even though I don't see a huge problem, even though mages can live longer Molly wasn't raised in that aspect of their culture but in the modern one where the estimated time is 80-90 years so it shouldn't be this variable enters into her consideration that they still have many, many years to try in my opinion. In addition Harry, who grew up in these situations, has as one of his reasons for not wanting this relationship because he thinks she is too young, and if one of the parties in a possible relationship thinks that, we should respect their opinions instead of saying that just because both can living a long time is not a problem, ignoring their opinion.

And I wouldn't compare this situation with Morgan/Luccio because I don't remember the possible relationship between them having as many red flags as Harry/Molly would have in my view.

TLDR: Harry has too many personal issues to be in a relationship with and when he found out that Molly had a crush on him he made it clear he wanted nothing to do with it. Molly still wants him even though she gets a clear no, knowing a little more about the curse that was his romantic life, and the various possible problems between them like power dynamics etc.

As the situation here in the quest didn't get serious because Molly is more contained here than in the books, it's not really something super important, and I won't talk about it anymore until it becomes a real problem. But I wanted to leave my opinion on the situation anyway.
 
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Vote closed. Reunion Time.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 19, 2022 at 2:30 AM, finished with 231 posts and 21 votes.
 
And about the age difference I didn't focus too much on it because my big problem remains that Molly ignores Dresden's will not to have that kind of relationship with her when he finds out her crush on him, as if his will doesn't matter/ he didn't know anything, which detonates one of the personal mines.
I'd note once he made it clear he didn't want it, there was no further attempts on her part until he possessed her as a ghost and found she just hid it very well.

She knows how to take a refusal. It just didn't change the feelings
 
I think they should proportional to what they do for mortals. I mean if you have a gaping wound in your stomach as an Exalted it should be easier to heal if you stitch it up. I'll have to look up the wound times in the rules, probably in vampire since that is what I am using as a base rule book
As far as I can see medical attention does not speed up healing for mortals, it is necessary for healing to happen at all after a certain point:
Any lethal damage past Hurt requires medical treatment to prevent further harm.
Untreated lethal wounds worsen by one level of lethal damage per day. When a mortal sustains lethal damage down to Incapacitated, he's one health level away from death. If he takes one more wound (whether bashing or lethal), he dies.
If the individual is at Maimed or higher, he may recover with rest over the times listed below.
However, if the mortal is Crippled or Incapacitated, no recovery is possible unless he receives medical attention. Indeed, at Incapacitated the individual is comatose at worse and delirious at best, and could still die
Which makes sense.
Medical attention does not actually make wounds heal faster, it prevents infections, bad healing and various complications.
No doctor can heal a broken arm or an open cut, they can only set things up so that the body can do its own healing without messing up.

So I guess for Exalted medical treatment (aside from poison and disease) should not matter at all, since they always heal fast and perfectly?

Edit: Also going by V20 I don't think aggravated damage instantly kills humans.
They merely can't heal it without magic, which sucks, but sometimes crippled is better than dead.
 
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Edit: Also going by V20 I don't think aggravated damage instantly kills humans.
They merely can't heal it without magic, which sucks, but sometimes crippled is better than dead.
Wouldn't this mean that due to mortal health requires treatment to not get worse, that in the event of supernatural wounds such as GSNF or whatever magic, that there is no mortal treatment and they slowly die as the wound gets worse and worse like untreated Lethal but even worse?

Edit: Also, the text in Sinner Boiling Stare is unclear. It says a mortal suffering even one Agg dies, if it matters.
 
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Does it say that in crown of Flames?

I believe the mortal killing part might be a flavor thing. Like "Oooh look how easily I dispose of the chaff!"
Crown of Flames just does Lethal.

Sinner-Boiling Stare (•••)
Concentrating her ire upon one she feels has
wronged her, the Infernal causes all of the liquids in
the target's body to come to a boil.
System: Spend a turn in concentration, spend 1
Essence, and roll Willpower against a difficulty of the
target's (Stamina + 2). The target must be within the
Exalt's line of sight, and must be someone that the
Infernal feels has wronged her in some way, be it grand
or petty; even such a minor offense as cutting the Ex-
alt off in traffic or leaving her hanging on a high-five
is sufficient. The target suffers one level of aggravated
damage for each success rolled as they cook from the
inside out; mortals are instantly killed outright if even
a single success is rolled.
This is mostly relevant for us because all our Agg damage is nuclear fire which should be as bad or worse trauma than this. GSNF even erupts from the inside just like this.

especially with fluff being as important as text.
 
I don't think a single point of agg damage killing someone is reasonable.

If they don't get medical attention? Sure they'll bleed out.

People survive absolutely ridiculous injuries all the time. They die too, but a lot of them survive.
 
People survive absolutely ridiculous injuries all the time. They die too, but a lot of them survive.
People can survive a lot, or die from falling and jostling their brain a bit.

Having the fire of Lanka injected into you is ...not good for a body.

Also, GSNF does 4 Agg at this point.

Edit: Not much of a difference but I can't really agree with being easy to survive.
 
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Wouldn't this mean that due to mortal health requires treatment to not get worse, that in the event of supernatural wounds such as GSNF or whatever magic, that there is no mortal treatment and they slowly die as the wound gets worse and worse like untreated Lethal but even worse?

Edit: Also, the text in Sinner Boiling Stare is unclear. It says a mortal suffering even one Agg dies, if it matters.
One point from that particular charm, not one point agg in general.
 
People can survive a lot, or die from falling and jostling their brain a bit.

Having the fire of Lanka injected into you is ...not good for a body.

Also, GSNF does 4 Agg at this point.

Edit: Not much of a difference but I can't really agree with being easy to survive.
People survive extreme chemical burns, intense flame, electrocution.

Often with medical attention and horrific scaring, but they do survive.
 
Arc 1 Post 2: A Meeting and a Message
A Meeting and a Message

7th of July 2006 A.D.

"Are you OK?" you ask your dad rushing in for a one armed hug. Probably not a good idea to sheathe your sword without a warning given that it looks like stabbing yourself in your heart. As he gingerly puts his arms around you you realize what the problem is. "Oh, my back, one of the vampires got me a a little but it hardly hurts, I heal fast now."

"Now?" he asks softly and you let out a relieved breath. "There is no anger in his voice, a lot of worry sure, but you had expected that." The flickering balefire eyes peering at him, at Harry, at his teacher and at the corpses of every single vampire are probably not helping.

"That's a long story," you shake your head a little leaning into his shoulder. The minty smell of the polish he uses in his armor reminds you of all the other times he had come home. Then you remember metal is a really good heat conductor, you're probably freezing him inside his armor. "Oh...um... sorry I'm cold now. "

Also you just lost another jacket and you are not sure the T-Shirt under it is salvageable. Mom is going to freak out if you go home looking like this.

"It's alright I know some of it," he says quietly.

"How?" you ask surprised. Dad is a lot of things, but able to make sense of weird magic powers at a glance is not one of them.

He looks around at Harry and the elder wizard, nodding a little at the latter before replying. "I had a visitation. I was not told much and nothing that you do not already know because that is forbidden, but enough to set my mind at ease."

"Like from an... angel?" The word almost gets stuck in your throat as your your heartbeat hammers your chest. Calm down Molly, you knew this thing was important, you knew.

"Pardon my intercession Mighty Bearer of Cleansing Flame, but did not the one named Lasciel find you of note, one of the same nature as these messengers, though Fallen from their tasks?" Usum interjects.

"Yeah." Speaking of things you aren't going to talk to your dad about no matter how much you might want to. The shadow's presence is not your secret to share. Instead you ask. "What did the angel say?"

Your father stops a little, thinking back so he would get the words right. "Uriel said you found an old treasure and took it up in a place of darkness and cold, that it is a weapon and a crown which has lain long in an even fouler place but which could not be twisted from its purpose. It seeks to do your will upon the world for good or for ill. There was something else, but which he asked I say to you alone."

"Wow... that's wow. I did know all that, I could feel it, but it's really good to have confirmation you know." You wave a hand at the twisting balefire aura and the eyes looking every which way.

"That's your daughter?" the old wizard asks shaking his head a little. "See that Hoss, don't let anyone tell you God doesn't hav' a sense of humor."

Dad glares at him a little over your head, but you can't help it you laugh and laugh until the pain in your back finally gets you to stop. It's not really that funny, but he does have a point and you are just relieved to see your dad again, to have won the fight and killed the vampires and whatever those things were.

"What... what were those...?" you start to ask, but Harry cuts you off.

"We need to get off the street, the Reds might try to hit us again and with you glowing like that who knows that kind of eyes we'll draw."

"If only someone had thought to put up a veil," the older wizard says with a mischievousness gleam in his eye. Now that he mentions it you can kind of feel a faint hum of magic in the air just the edges of your anima, bending and scattering the light before it can escape.

Harry kind of ducks his head a little. "I'd introduce all of you both to Ebeneezer McCoy, my teacher and the finest wizards I know, but he's already done that better than I could." He nods in the direction of your dad. "You already know Michael, this is Molly.., the one I talked to you about."

"Ayup and ain't that a right mess," the old man says, turning serious on a dime. "That's usually the way with auld powers, even when they're being helpful. They come in their time and not in ours."

"Er, thank you for the help," you say. You are not sure what the proper form of address is for a Senior Council member, but you have seen enough of this one to know that he isn't inclined to stand on formalities with the vampire corpses still bubbling away into junk three feet away.

"Call it an even balance," he shrugs. "I'd have also called is a damn fool thing to do before I saw you fight, but you know what you can do better than I did so it's just a regular fool thing. Fighting Outsiders is always that."

"Even when you do it?" Harry asks, getting his own back a little and looking more relaxed.

"There's no fool like an old fool as my joints keep reminding me every morning," he replies without missing a beat. "Come on let's not be jabbering too much in the middle of town, veil or not." He heads off towards the cars with no evidence of any trouble in his sure stride.

You are quiet on the way back to Harry's though your mind is anything but. It's good to have dad in the car with you, good to know he will be there to help, but any arguments you make to McCoy, to the White Council will have to be your own. Should you just focus on not being a danger or something more? Apparently those things and creatures like that had been the reason for the Seventh Law and some of the most dangerous foes the White Council faced and you had cut them down sure as Amoracchius and unlike your dad who goes where the Spirit leads him you are beholden to no choices but your own. How would the White Council take an offer of aid? How would your parents?

Well OK you know the answer to that last one for sure one. Mom would have kittens and dad would be really worried, but should that stop you? Harry's Spiderman line may have been as corny as a super-sized bucket of popcorn, but it had not been wrong. You have a lot of power, so where are you responsible to use it.

What do you argue to Ebeneezer McCoy?

[] Simply that you are not a danger and that you can no longer wield mortal sorcery and thus not under the mandate of the Seven Laws

[] Offer to help as you can in the war the Council is fighting, you have no qualms that the Red Court is an evil that must be defeated at all costs after what you have seen today

[] Write in


OOC: For the record Harry is thinking about how to make the case to Ebeneezer himself, but at this point it would be out of character for Molly to just leave it to others to deal with what is her fate and the consequences of her actions. Between her resolve to take responsibility earlier and being an Infernal Exalted which inclines her to 'master of my own fate' that is what it comes out to. What arguments you make is up to you guys. Oh and that second hand message from Uriel is part of the five dot Mentor Background you guys bought for Michael, the rest of it will come out when he can speak to you in private.
 
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