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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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I wonder if there's some sort of binding oath we could take on a per instance basis that would make them trust it?

I wouldn't want to do that even for most of our good allies like Harry, but we could really screw over some awful people if the stronger and lighter powers could trust us.

Giving the knights Allies: Hell is funny, but giving it* to Uriel is genuine Devil bullying. :V


* Or the highest level of conditional magic we can provide that gives him an even more extreme type advantage against Hell when using anything that qualifies as magic.

Or maybe if of the skill adept merits that gives a -2 diff reduction to anything in the specified area. Uriel is a freaking Celestine, so he's already swole, but at the same time with the number of dice he probably throws at his problems -2 could be very spicy.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I wonder if there's some sort of binding oath we could take on a per instance basis that would make them trust it?

I wouldn't want to do that even for most of our good allies like Harry, but we could really screw over some awful people if the stronger and lighter powers could trust us.

Giving the knights Allies: Hell is funny, but giving it* to Uriel is genuine Devil bullying. :V


* Or the highest level of conditional magic we can provide that gives him an even more extreme type advantage against Hell when using anything that qualifies as magic.

Or maybe if of the skill adept merits that gives a -2 diff reduction to anything in the specified area. Uriel is a freaking Celestine, so he's already swole, but at the same time with the number of dice he probably throws at his problems -2 could be very spicy.
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Molly: "Harry, I've developed a new ability which can, to a limited extent, grant the wishes of others, even warping reality to make necessary changes. How would you like your proficiency with magic to be increased beyond mortal limits? Or immortality?"

Harry: "Sounds too good to be true. What's the catch?"

Molly: "Well, you would be magically obligated to fulfill any one request I might make of you."

Harry: *blink* *blink* *inhales in preparation for a suitable response, likely something about deals with the Devil*

Molly: "I can tell you ahead of time that I'll be demanding a nice long massage. That sounds fair, right? Phenomenal cosmic power or immortality for a backrub?"
 
uju32 said:
VEE is meant to model the classic deal with the devil type stories, where someone does a deal with the devil in exchange for their soul. It even goes as far as having no major consequence until VEE is applied three times, directly paralleling all the stories where the bargain would give the person three favors/wishes, and on the fulfillment of the third the payment comes due.

Attempts to turn it into another minion-making charm that is spammable kinda miss the point of the charm.
At least in this AU.
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Infernals are supposed to be the Minion Exalted. Between demons summoning, and VEE and other charms Infernals stomp on the other exalted ability to quickly turn mortals into 5 in every stat and ability + mutation + merits badasses beyond the other exalted. But by this system the minion masters are the Solars with their ability to grant stunting and turn out mages.

No enemy worth putting into a quest should ever be willing to take a wish. That is just dumb, doubly so in a setting with massive Fey influence where an unrestricted debt is massively bad, and can hang over you forevery granting the fey the ability to mess with you without any restriction, and everybody know it.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
No enemy worth putting into a quest should ever be willing to take a wish. That is just dumb, doubly so in a setting with massive Fey influence where an unrestricted debt is massively bad, and can hang over you forevery granting the fey the ability to mess with you without any restriction, and everybody know it.
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By this reasoning, Greater Akuma couldn't exist.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Conservation of detail, something weak/foolish enough to take a wish, is something that should not be in a quest, as even without VEE they would be no challenge to Molly. Every update needs to matter in a quest or you start taking literally months to hold a simple conversion.
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I find it weird how much you are against things working out for us. We have fought many stupid people who have desperate minions.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Conservation of detail, something weak/foolish enough to take a wish, is something that should not be in a quest, as even without VEE they would be no challenge to Molly. Every update needs to matter in a quest or you start taking literally months to hold a simple conversion.
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Sorry, dude, but this argument doesn't make any sense.

The percentage of people who wouldn't take a wish is just a tiny fraction of humanity, and anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. Just because someone has a price doesn't mean they're useless.
 
Goldfish said:
The percentage of people who wouldn't take a wish is just a tiny fraction of humanity, and anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. Just because someone has a price doesn't mean they're useless.
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If an enemies takes a takes a wish they are done, either they are thrown into hell, or we make them give up everything they have to live the life of a hermit. Taking a wish is lose condition.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
If an enemies takes a takes a wish they are done, either they are thrown into hell, or we make them give up everything they have to live the life of a hermit. Taking a wish is lose condition.
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There are many reasons for someone to be considered an enemy. Many are simply motivated by greed, frustration, lust, anger, etc., which can easily be ameliorated with a wish.

And what's with the focus on using VEE on enemies to begin with? AKAIK, that's not been even slightly behind the motivation to learn the Charm.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
If an enemies takes a takes a wish they are done, either they are thrown into hell, or we make them give up everything they have to live the life of a hermit. Taking a wish is lose condition.
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The service is limited. It has to have an established end point, and that point can't be more than a year and a day away from the start of the task. It cannot be impossible or utterly suicidal. Selling yourself into slavery for a year in exchange for, for example, having a Dragon Nest, or moving up in Hell hierarchy, or removing a death curse? Tons of immortals would be up for that.

A year and a day is nothing.
 
One thing that is made very clear about VEE is the person does not have to ask for the wish of you or with a legitimate expectation of it being fulfilled. If the Merlin says 'God I wish they had some decent tea in this benighted country' and then you gave him the tea (with him either not noticing the chill down his spine or not caring)... well you now have yourself a Merlin in your debt.
 
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Yog said:
The service is limited. It has to have an established end point, and that point can't be more than a year and a day away from the start of the task. It cannot be impossible or utterly suicidal. Selling yourself into slavery for a year in exchange for, for example, having a Dragon Nest, or moving up in Hell hierarchy, or removing a death curse? Tons of immortals would be up for that.

A year and a day is nothing.
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Nice Dragonnest/corporation/artifact collection, everything you own is mine now. So you went up the hell hierarchy, well spend the next year sabotaging all of hell activities, whoops did I let slip you have spend the last year being a traitor to your bosses, have fun being tortured forever. Just because the order cannot be suicidal or impossible, does not mean we can't force them to do things and sell that information to people that will kill them for doing what we said.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
Yog said:
The service is limited. It has to have an established end point, and that point can't be more than a year and a day away from the start of the task. It cannot be impossible or utterly suicidal. Selling yourself into slavery for a year in exchange for, for example, having a Dragon Nest, or moving up in Hell hierarchy, or removing a death curse? Tons of immortals would be up for that.
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Nice Dragonnest/corporation/artifact collection, everything you own is mine now. So you went up the hell hierarchy, well spend the next year sabotaging all of hell activities, whoops did I let slip you have spend the last year being a traitor to your bosses, have fun being tortured forever. Just because the order cannot be suicidal or impossible, does not mean we can't force them to do things and sell that information to people that will kill them for doing what we said.
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I'm pretty sure asking a servant of Hell to spend the next year sabotaging all of Hell activities fails all three criteria.
It's suicidal because it would greatly anger many more powerful entities with direct access to the wisher,
it's impossible because one person wishing to move up the hierarchy does not have the power, the knowledge, or the number of hours in the day needed to sabotage all of hell's activities,
it's an open-ended service without an established end point because Hell might start any number of new activities next year.
 
DragonParadox said:
One thing that is made very clear about VEE is the person does not have to ask for the wish of you or with a legitimate expectation of it being fulfilled. If the Merlin says 'God I wish they had some decent tea in this benighted country' and then you gave him the tea (with him either not noticing the chill down his spine or not caring)... well you now have yourself a Merlin in your debt.
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Do we even have to be physically present? I realize that recording almost certainly won't work, but does remote presence? Like over a phone or on TV (real time transmission)?
 
Yog said:
The service is limited. It has to have an established end point, and that point can't be more than a year and a day away from the start of the task. It cannot be impossible or utterly suicidal. Selling yourself into slavery for a year in exchange for, for example, having a Dragon Nest, or moving up in Hell hierarchy, or removing a death curse? Tons of immortals would be up for that.

A year and a day is nothing.
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But they would have no reason to know about the latter two criteria, or even believe that we're telling the truth when we tell them about the criteria as a whole, would they?
 
TonedMite said:
But they would have no reason to know about the latter two criteria, or even believe that we're telling the truth when we tell them about the criteria as a whole, would they?
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If we are talking about using the crown on hostiles or potential hostiles, they don't need to know anything at all, actually. Or even realize that they are being targeted with a charm.
DragonParadox said:
No, any kind of live communication or transmission will work.
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Not the Crown use, I guess? Because otherwise it's scry and die combo: use the crown to ask "what does this person wish for", then use VEE to grant said wish. Be the perfect demonic Santa.
 
Yog said:
If we are talking about using the crown on hostiles or potential hostiles, they don't need to know anything at all, actually. Or even realize that they are being targeted with a charm.

Not the Crown use, I guess? Because otherwise it's scry and die combo: use the crown to ask "what does this person wish for", then use VEE to grant said wish. Be the perfect demonic Santa.
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No for the same reason it cannot pick out true names.
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on May 25, 2023 at 1:26 PM, finished with 84 posts and 8 votes.
  • [X]Plan Question Time
    -[X] Head off at once to interrogate the prisoner with Lara, save your power for later
    -[X] Clippy/Cyberdevils: Call 911 Emergency for the victims on the road. Use an online anonymizing service
    -[X] Take possession and search through the prisoner's clothes
    -[X] Crown Questions:
    --[X] Chase Scene: Motorcylist/motorcycle: What allies/associates/minions of the entity/sorcerer whose attack injured this person/disabled their bike are in the Chicago area?
    --[X]Arrival Scene: Disabled Van: How long before the associates of the entity who disabled/damaged this van will attack the Raith estate?
    -[X]STUNT: You arrive in a surprisingly well-equipped infirmary with Lara Raith to see the prisoner being attended to, with one of the medics cutting his bloody clothes off and putting him in one of those backless medical gowns even as others hook up a confusing array of medical monitors and tubes. You note, but dont comment on the straps binding him to the bed, or the pair of armed guards by the entrance, choosing to go through the contents of his clothes as Lara talks in low tones to the medics before they adjust some. In what seems only moments, he comes to seeming full wakefulness, his eyes wild. You step into his field of view without preamble as with a thought you are crowned in green light. "Your boss just tried to pull your skeleton out of your" you make a wordless, yet expressive gesture "everything. And then we were attacked on our way here. I would like to know why." You pull a chair up by the side of his bed, his lifeblood still on your chainmail."Start talking."
    [X] Use the crown on the Estate itself to find the timeline of an attack
    [X] Use the crown on one of the security personnel to find the plan of an attack
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Goldfish said:
Molly: "Harry, I've developed a new ability which can, to a limited extent, grant the wishes of others, even warping reality to make necessary changes. How would you like your proficiency with magic to be increased beyond mortal limits? Or immortality?"

Harry: "Sounds too good to be true. What's the catch?"

Molly: "Well, you would be magically obligated to fulfill any one request I might make of you."

Harry: *blink* *blink* *inhales in preparation for a suitable response, likely something about deals with the Devil*

Molly: "I can tell you ahead of time that I'll be demanding a nice long massage. That sounds fair, right? Phenomenal cosmic power or immortality for a backrub?"
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… I'm kind of tempted to share VEE's existence with Dresden by having Molly make a brass lamp, dress up as the genie from Aladdin, and talk Mouse into smuggling us in while Harry is out.

As soon as he picks it up she pops out and starts in on Never Had A Friend Like Me.

It's stupid, but just imagine the look on his face.

Though having said that we should totally do that when we explain it to the Carpenters as a whole. Much less invasive to pull when you already live in the same place.


Earth-Destroyer said:
Nice Dragonnest/corporation/artifact collection, everything you own is mine now. So you went up the hell hierarchy, well spend the next year sabotaging all of hell activities, whoops did I let slip you have spend the last year being a traitor to your bosses, have fun being tortured forever. Just because the order cannot be suicidal or impossible, does not mean we can't force them to do things and sell that information to people that will kill them for doing what we said.
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Still doesn't really work. As was mentioned earlier Akuma are a direct contradiction to your theory.

There's also some weirdness in general expectations here I think.

Turning to the Akuma as an example again there are people like the nubs who hadn't even made it out of their graves before getting bought out, lesser Akuma like Eiko, and big fish like the will of Kakuri.

VEE is clearly optimized to draw someone in from the outside who isn't necessarily hostile with you, and is useful in their own right. The stronger they are the better, though they're naturally also harder to land.

In terms of applicability to our situation, the optimum targets are currently vamps approaching the end of a natural human lifespan up to just shy of their second century and gribblies in that same general power range.

Thomas* fits on the middle-upper end of that because he's a freak of nature.


* Incidentally he's also an example of someone with power and experience who took what by all rights was a bad deal because we had the exact bait he wanted even without VEE.

I bet if it was possible to give him a true live version of this:
Silver Tolerance (7pt Merit):
High Approval Whenever you take damage from silver, you may make a simple test to convert the damage to lethal. Also, it takes a pair of silver items carried to cause you to lose one Gnosis Trait.
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cite

He'd have taken it even if he wasn't already working for us.
 
BronzeTongue said:
… I'm kind of tempted to share VEE's existence with Dresden by having Molly make a brass lamp, dress up as the genie from Aladdin, and talk Mouse into smuggling us in while Harry is out.

As soon as he picks it up she pops out and starts in on Never Had A Friend Like Me.

It's stupid, but just imagine the look on his face.

Though having said that we should totally do that when we explain it to the Carpenters as a whole. Much less invasive to pull when you already live in the same place.
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Let's do this.

And we'll film it from multiple angles with Cyber-Devil possessed cameras.
 
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