Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

sounds more like you are just angry we made the promise, and trying to shoehorn in a definition of the promise that we can't keep because of that.

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Angry? Nope. My dude, I opposed it back then with precisely this argument.
But we chose otherwise. Im pretty much for keeping commitments we make, so Im calling out the commitment we made so we keep it.

Promises are important in this setting, and nascent Powers that waffle on their word are deeply alarming.
We dont get hit with the magical consequences of breaking our word because Exalted, but the social and reputational consequences are just as bad, and potentially worse.

So yes, sophistry? Look in a mirror. Better yet, look at Murphy's speech prior to us making the promise.

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*rolls eyes*
Read the full thing again, including the vote options and what Molly voted for.

Clear and present danger. If Murphy is so completely childish as to disregard the spirit of the promise

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If we establish a reputation for requiring a legal advocate to draw up the minutaie of deals with us because we'll weasel word at our convenience? We will suffer significant diplomatic and social issues going forward.
And we already are at a malus being what we are.

We keep our word and agreements. Or we dont make them.
One or the other.
Better to keep. Less bad to formally withdraw.

First line of the accords "There is no spirit of the law, only its letter." In dresden files nobody cares about the spirit of a deal, only the letter, and save for the Fey the latter is optional as well.

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Citation very much needed.
We very much see Dresden make verbal agreements with people, from Hendricks to Gard to Winter Lady Maeve, and the spirit of the agreement is law.

 

[Nyarky]

Im pretty much for keeping commitments we make, so Im calling out the commitment we made so we keep it.

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You are calling out your particular reading of this promise that nobody agree with, including the one that made the promise and almost certainly the one who we made the promise to.

Nowhere in the promise was it said that we had to tell her about each little happenings in Chicago, and this is not a major new development, which is what she wants to learn about, this is a bartender who makes absolutely sure to not make waves not making waves.

 

[OctarineShrike]

Regarding the promise:

Murphy's Terms:I'd like your word at least that when some trouble comes into town, even if it's the kind SI can't handle you'll give me a call.

What we say in the next update: Yes

Do I trust the woman in front of you, all five feet of professional aplomb and human candor? Knowing what you do about what she's done, understanding 'why' with arcane insight it is easy to say 'yes', you do so with a light heart. Special Investigations should know when monsters are in town, even monsters too powerful for them to fight or else they might get caught in the crossfire.

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I just think @DragonParadox didn't feel the need to get legalistic with the voting options.

However I am willing to get behind warning Murphy about the possibility of one of Mab's retinue causing trouble or a third party. My earlier vote has the gist of that notification.

 

[DragonParadox]

^^^
One of the characteristics of adulthood is knowing when to keep your mouth shut.

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Elder Solar: What is this a-doo-lut-hud you speak of? Can be it be crafted into an abomination against nature/bound to eternal service?

[X] Normally, order a root beer


[X][Stunt] "Ah heavenly, this tastes divine".


@DragonParadox : Shouldn't we get back 2 essence for finding out a supernatural secret?

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You should yeah, I'll put it in next update.

 

[OctarineShrike]

@DragonParadox Sorry to tag you again like this but what is the intended reading of the promise to Murphy?

A. When some trouble comes into town, even if it's the kind SI can't handle you'll give [Murphy] a call.
B. To give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago in exchange for Murphy listening to your advice in such matters carefully
C. When some trouble comes into town, even if it's the kind SI can't handle, you'll call Murphy in exchange for her listening carefully to our advice in such matters.
D. Something else?

 

[DragonParadox]

@DragonParadox Sorry to tag you again like this but what is the intended reading of the promise to Murphy?

A. When some trouble comes into town, even if it's the kind SI can't handle you'll give [Murphy] a call.
B. To give a heads up of any major supernatural happening in Chicago in exchange for Murphy listening to your advice in such matters carefully
C. When some trouble comes into town, even if it's the kind SI can't handle, you'll call Murphy in exchange for her listening carefully to our advice in such matters.
D. Something else?

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A. Murphy is not interested in things that are just powerful, but in things that are both powerful and trouble. I mean think about it this way do you imagine that Murphy a devout Catholic would demand that you tell her if Uriel is in town? She is not curious about these things for their own sake but in so far as they relate to the people she has a duty to protect.

 

[A_Somebody]

[X] Hint at what you noticed (Charisma+ Subterfuge)
[X] Normally, order a root beer

Mostly approval voting to not blab it out openly.

 

[SCO]

[X] Normally, order a root beer

 

[Azais]

[X] Normally, order a root beer

 

[Alectai]

[X] Normally, order a root beer

Don't be dumb, he wants to be incognito, respect that.

 

[firefrog600]

All else aside, it's kind of hilarious that using his vast cosmic powers to automate cleaning his bar is what gave Mac away.

I bet he put considerable effort into proverbially forging his fake ID, and then we pick it apart immediately because he didn't think to skip on his old hygiene routine.

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In fairness there are those who clearly know what mac is out there. Heck even some senior council wizards might know. Not like they'd tell harry lol.

 

[fictionfan]

Elder Solar: What is this a-doo-lut-hud you speak of? Can be it be crafted into an abomination against nature/bound to eternal service?

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Well twilights also trigger essence gain from sharing the secrets. Wish we had that instead of binding unwholesome beings into our service. Much easier to share secrets on demand.

 

[Yog]

Yes we are.
We made a commitment that we didnt have to; I quote:
Letter and spirit of the promise we made.
A freaking ex-angel setting up shop in the Chicago area is very much germane to the letter and spirit of the promise.

We're also obliged to tell Murphy that Mab is coming to town by the letter and spirit of that promise.

EDIT
We had the opportunity to refuse. To request caveats and carve outs. We didnt take it.
That brings us down to breaking our word or potentially pissing off supernaturals.
Or going back to renegotiate or tell her we cant keep it.

This isnt a surprise.
I pointed it out during the vote.

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If Mac was just setting up shop, yes, maybe I could see your point. He isn't. He has been here for a long time. He isn'nt trouble. We are under no obligation to inform Murphy.

About meeting Mab? Yeah, sure, we should tell her. And even that isn't covered by under our promise. Mab comes and goes to Chicago as she pleases, and this is a private meeting, not "trouble".

You are very much stretch and twisting the letter and the spirit of the promise. It was very clearly about giving Murphy heads up about potential trouble for the city and its population. Something that SI might hear about, if not be able to interfere with. Neither Mab nor Mac fall under that.

 

[DragonParadox]

If Mac was just setting up shop, yes, maybe I could see your point. He isn't. He has been here for a long time. He isn'nt trouble. We are under no obligation to inform Murphy.

About meeting Mab? Yeah, sure, we should tell her. And even that isn't covered by under our promise. Mab comes and goes to Chicago as she pleases, and this is a private meeting, not "trouble".

You are very much stretch and twisting the letter and the spirit of the promise. It was very clearly about giving Murphy heads up about potential trouble for the city and its population. Something that SI might hear about, if not be able to interfere with. Neither Mab nor Mac fall under that.

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To give a hypothetical if Mab had just announced that for her 1000th birthday (not actually her age) they are going to have the Chicago Mortal hunt and Ruby Red Ice Cream Competition where the Winter Court hunts a thousand mortals and makes ice cream out of their blood that would fall under what Murphy asked you to give her a heads up about. Mab just coming to town to talk to Molly does not.

 

[Goldfish]

It's pretty simple to determine when we should share news of supernatural visitors with Murphy.

If we expect we'll need to kill them before they leave town, that's enough to warrant telling her they're in town.

Same if we expect they'll maliciously kill people while in town.

Or eat people, since eating and killing don't always go hand in hand

Or kidnap them for later eating or victimization.

Otherwise, it's none of her damned business and not worth our time to share it or hers to take our call.

 

[Artemis1992]

It's pretty simple to determine when we should share news of supernatural visitors with Murphy.

If we expect we'll need to kill them before they leave town, that's enough to warrant telling her they're in town.

Same if we expect they'll maliciously kill people while in town.

Or eat people, since eating and killing don't always go hand in hand

Or kidnap them for later eating or victimization.

Otherwise, it's none of her damned business and not worth our time to share it or hers to take our call.

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I feel like Mab coming to town is big enough that we might want to tell her, even if we assume that violence is very unlikely to occour.

It's true that we don't think things will escalate, but if we tell Murphy "I was 99% sure things wouldn't escalate" after the great blizzard of Halloween '06, I don't think she'd be understanding about the situation.

 

[fictionfan]

I feel like Mab coming to town is big enough that we might want to tell her, even if we assume that violence is very unlikely to occour.

It's true that we don't think things will escalate, but if we tell Murphy "I was 99% sure things wouldn't escalate" after the great blizzard of Halloween '06, I don't think she'd be understanding about the situation.

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If we were planning on ambushing Mab or otherwise starting a fight then it might be Murphy's business. As if Mab is less likely to cause trouble in Chicago the day of our meeting then she is most days.

 

[DragonParadox]

I feel like Mab coming to town is big enough that we might want to tell her, even if we assume that violence is very unlikely to occour.

It's true that we don't think things will escalate, but if we tell Murphy "I was 99% sure things wouldn't escalate" after the great blizzard of Halloween '06, I don't think she'd be understanding about the situation.

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That does give you guys an incentive to either make sure that blizzard does not happen or tell her. Promises you make are subject to interpretation and that interpretation is subject to change.

 

[bengalqueen]

[X] Normally, order a root beer

Is it wrong that I want to tell Charity about this when we get home, just to see her reaction? Because I would absolutely love to see her reaction to Mac being an angel.

 

[OctarineShrike]

I'd consider this on the edge for what the promise demands but if we're feeling particularly interested in keeping to it a message like this may be in order.

[Trial Balloon message to Murphy]This is probably more of a precautionary alert than anything serious. I will be having a diplomatic meeting [Say with Mab depending on thread preferences regarding infosec] on [Insert date here]. I do not expect trouble from the person I'm meeting with. However I cannot discount the possibility of third parties seeking to cause trouble or that a member of the person I'm meeting with's retinue may decide to cause trouble of their own initiative in the event they decide to bring one.

 

[Goldfish]

I feel like Mab coming to town is big enough that we might want to tell her, even if we assume that violence is very unlikely to occour.

It's true that we don't think things will escalate, but if we tell Murphy "I was 99% sure things wouldn't escalate" after the great blizzard of Halloween '06, I don't think she'd be understanding about the situation.

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I disagree.

Also, if we're hoping to have a cordial, productive meeting with Mab, tattling to the muggle police that she's coming to town isn't going to earn us any points.

 

[Nemonowan]

[X] Normally, order a root beer
[-Stunt] In a clean glass please. Cleanliness is next to godliness.

 

[OctarineShrike]

I disagree.

Also, if we're hoping to have a cordial, productive meeting with Mab, tattling to the muggle police that she's coming to town isn't going to earn us any points.

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We made no promise of secrecy. We did not set them against her. Depending on how we tell Murphy we don't even have to say Mab explicitly.

So can you expand on your logic? Is it about the mortal authorities are nuclear weapons in supernatural disputes thing? Or is it something else?

 

[Blockamus]

[X] Normally, order a root beer

 

[Goldfish]

We made no promise of secrecy. We did not set them against her. Depending on how we tell Murphy we don't even have to say Mab explicitly.

So can you expand on your logic? Is it about the mortal authorities are nuclear weapons in supernatural disputes thing? Or is it something else?

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It's just simple courtesy. It's literally none of Murphy's business that Mab is coming to town. Mab isn't coming to kill, rob, rape, or otherwise inconvenience the citizens of Chicago.

At the same time, while Mab's movements are not necessarily secret to many of the other beings in her relative weight class, it's not our place to go about spreading that information.

Who is to say that telling Murphy won't lead to her telling her LoC handlers? That's quite likely, all things considered. If so, then how difficult is it to believe that someone at the LoC, or someone who has influence with the LoC, wouldn't see this as an opportunity to advance some agenda? Maybe they want to send a representative to our meeting, maybe they want to spy on it? Maybe someone wants to sabotage our meeting? Unlikely doesn't equal impossible, and we should always take into account the chance for bad actors to move against us or those around us.

There is nothing good that can come of sharing that information with Murphy, only bad.