- Location
- washington
I mean definitely mab does sort of have to deal in well deals though so its not all bad. At least directly that is we are a strategic asset so we have a lot of leverage.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
She would have a very hard time holding us.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, holding an Exalt captive to try to force them to do Ancient Sorcery for you is kind of insane, because in order for them to do the ritual you want, they have to 1) be able to move and act and 2) not be mote-tapped. Trying to hold us captive when we can move around enough for an exorcism and have at least 5 motes left in the tank is a very bad idea, for a number of reasons. And Mab should know enough by the time she finds out about this to realize that that won't work in anything remotely resembling long-term. Her only option is to offer us something we want for it, or otherwise convince us to agree.
Punking (non-permanently most likely, we didn't use MiM) some minor outsiders and directly opposing Nemesis in a way no one else can are very different things.
Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden doesn't have the ability to demantle people.
It's a very bad thing.
You are either misunderstanding or distorting my position. I never said "ignore outsiders". I said "do not make yourself the primary target of Nemesis".
- Location
- washington
I mean if anything knows what an exaltation is its outsiders. So since they obviously know about us a bit its kinda safe to assume that they know shit already. Also for Mab well fuck shes not stupid shes not gonna just kidnap us she knows it wouldn't work long term. Also she literally cannot break her word like all fae just watch the wording.
1) Assuming all outsiders know everything their Neverborn masters know is dangerous. As is assuming that all outsiders are a hivemind. So far we have been seen by several mook outsiders. Who we have killed (we don't know if it was a permakill).
2) They might know what an exaltation is, but not what charms we have or can get access to. A single exalt is very dangerous, but not necessarily a primary target among all others.
3) It's impossible to trust Mab for the simple reason that she cannot trust others (among other reasons). Just watching the wording is not enough, as almost any word can be twisted into almost any meaning.
- Location
- washington
For 1 and 2 oh totally no disagreement there just fair assumption that some do and some know while not a full list some charms and such.
for 3. Uh being able to twist the word into almost anything no just no she cannot do that shes not gonna be able to pull diction magic on us. Say for example she tells us she wont kill us into meaning in some ancient language that yes she can totally kill us. Not that she'd ever agree to not being able to kill us probably. But, she can't twist anything to mean anything. She cannot turn that no I won't kill you into yes I can totally kill you. She can trick us plenty, she can make word games, she can have hidden meanings. She cannot say something once we've read it and mean something entirely else. hidden meanings yes. something that seems contrary to what she says no. Also you can absolutely trust mab to keep to what shes told shes never broken any promise and literally can't. None of that ancient word games shit is something shes pulled in canon.
- Location
- washington
By the way its probably safe to assume that outsiders aren't strictly 100% the forces of neverborn from the previous world. Not that they aren't that just strictly not just that. Like belief didn't have anything to do with them being able to have a presence in the world right? If it did then my bad lol. Well or the clear reality rewrite and updates affect everything.
But, in dresden files elimination of memories of them is a valid tactic from keeping them out of the world and weakened while in it. Since they apparently can feed on fear and awareness of them. Also apparently only mortal memories of them since telling Bob apparently doesn't count for the memories. Also only mortal magic can help bring them in. We can obviously side step that being exalted and having old previous reality code bullshit and still technically being mortal. Also no idea how much dp runs with these facts.
Can neverborn even die? I'm guessing since in dresden files it said the old gods once ruled and can't truly die whatever they are probably to a certain degree won the war in the previous reality and still couldn't die. Their probably understandably pissed about that and are taking it out on everyone else. Well that or they never fully won.
Edit: Any ideas on this guys? Think we could eventually kill or banish the sleeper?
But, in dresden files elimination of memories of them is a valid tactic from keeping them out of the world and weakened while in it. Since they apparently can feed on fear and awareness of them. Also apparently only mortal memories of them since telling Bob apparently doesn't count for the memories. Also only mortal magic can help bring them in. We can obviously side step that being exalted and having old previous reality code bullshit and still technically being mortal. Also no idea how much dp runs with these facts.
Can neverborn even die? I'm guessing since in dresden files it said the old gods once ruled and can't truly die whatever they are probably to a certain degree won the war in the previous reality and still couldn't die. Their probably understandably pissed about that and are taking it out on everyone else. Well that or they never fully won.
Edit: Any ideas on this guys? Think we could eventually kill or banish the sleeper?
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
So, Sapphire Circle Exorcism casts out the spirit from the body in a form that can supposedly fight... Which means we can probably use MiM on anything we exorcise. What does that mean if we exorcise a Nemesis victim and use MiM on whatever pops out? Would that, if not kill, then permanently weaken Nemesis? Since it's limited in the number of bodies it can infect, does that mean that using SCE + MiM would permanently reduce that number by 1? Or weaken it in some other way?
Just needed to share the speculation so it would stop knocking around in my head.
Just needed to share the speculation so it would stop knocking around in my head.
- Location
- Germany
Souls regenerate in DF, so if we cut of a small part of Nemesis, it can propably grow back.
- Location
- washington
well I honestly doubt outsiders have what we'd call souls here though? They probably have something. But, I mean even exalted has soulless things I think so I very much doubt outsiders have souls.
"I can't kill you" can mean "I can't kill you, but I can order you killed". Saying "I can't kill you and can't order anyone to kill you" can mean "I can post bounties for your head". Saying "I can't kill you and can't order or entice others to kill you" can mean "I can lead your enemies to your location, or withhold help when needed in order for you to die". Etc. Dealing with Mab, at least in my mind, runs into the core issue of "Mab is fundamentally incapable of ever trusting anyone". There are other issues, like "she's a sadist who derives what little pleasures she still has from torments of others", but they are secondary to the core one. Because Mab can't trust anyone, she always expects and plans for betrayal. This means that any deal Mab agrees to (unless she has no other choice at all) will be structured in such a way that the power disparity between Mab and the other party either remains the same, or increases in Mab's favor. Anything else would make her more open to being betrayed than she was prior to the deal and, thus, would be unacceptable because it endangers her core mission (Mab is close to a paperclip optimizer in this regards, I feel). And since Mab, while necessary, is still an insane sadistic monster, even if one directed towards something needed, increasing the power disparity between us and Mab in Mab's favor is not something I would abide. Even if, in absolute terms, both parties might become stronger from the deal.
Essentially, all Mab's coins are poisoned.
If I recall correctly, if Neverborn let go of their hate and achieved perfect zen, they might be able to slip into Oblivion and escape their torment.
- Location
- Germany
Propably not souls in the traditional sense, but spirits regenerate their Essence too and Raksha are not permanently dimished by wounds either.
- Location
- washington
I mean none of that is actually rewriting of the word though. Like I don't disagree that we can never fully trust her she's not gonna break her word though. Also while what she does won't be in good faith she's still gotta follow her own laws, the accords stuff, and often times common sense. If she betrays us which she totally wou—well no she wouldn't betray us so much as never fully be in our side. But, if she works to oppose us it'd be for a good reason well a thought out reason. Also do things we don't like that's pretty much a 100% thing though doesn't necessarily need to be in opposition of us just not on the same lines as us.
Also not everything she does is poisoned mutual benefit things are something she can do and has done. Heck she can even technically make deals from a position of less than an equal. Given that's only by appealing to her logic and usually when she has no other choice.
True though it's probably safe to assume their stuff likely won't work in the same ways soul stuff does.
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- Location
- washington
So we've gotta give the old gods therapy
Man is dangerous and at her very best not particularly nice.
That said, she doesn't maintain her position by being an untrustworthy asshole in all things.
She simply couldn't maintain the soft power she has if she went full "screw you on the technicalities" with everyone all the time.
Note that in canon we only see her do stuff like that after provocation. Like when Nicodemus decided to break the accords.
She's not safe, but if we aren't enemies and we start trading we can be somewhat sure she'll fill it without a full court press of this sort of thing.
Again, I think I was misunderstood. Let's do this point by point. My opinion is:
1) Mab is capable of making deals where both parties objectively benefit
2) Mab is fundamentally incapable of trusting anyone and always expects betrayal
3) Mab is wholly dedicated to her mission / goal / function, to the point where calling her a paperclip maximizer is, while not strictly correct, isn't totally wrong either
4) Outside of her mission-related actions and behavior, Mab is, at best, a broken nearly insane woman worthy of pity. At worst she's a sadist actively deriving pleasure from suffering of others.
5) Because of point 2, any deal Mab makes (barring exceptional circumstances where she is forced to act otherwise) has to benefit Mab no less than the other party. So, for example, if we gain X units of "power" out of a deal, Mab also has to gain X or more units of power out of said deal. To do otherwise would be to make herself more open to betrayal than she was prior to the deal, and to risk her mission / goal / purpose. Because she expects everyone to betray her and can't trust anyone.
While, at the moment, Mab seems to be a net benefit to reality, or at least necessary (we have no idea why the celestial host isn't guarding the Outer Gate, or why modern mortal armies numbering in the trillions from a number of parallel universes wouldn't be more effective, or why a hiveminded being can't defend it, where the loss of bodies wouldn't be a loss of a person, and a whole other list of questions), in the long term I fully expect her to turn against us. As such, I consider dealing with her a strategic net loss.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Yeah, she can 'just' play all manner of fuck-fuck word games, which if she pushes it far enough, can get her close enough to the same result. Linguistic drift, among other things, could be used against us. As could picking and choosing what definitions of a word, even if said definition is not in common use any more or perhaps never was in *common* use, playing games with intent/manipulating others into doing stuff to hurt us without 'technically' any intent to do us harm (say, if she mentally formats it as 'defence of reality' like almost everything else she does), and many other things that I'm probably not thinking of at 8 in the morning.
Frankly, she wouldn't even require particularly tortured mental gymnastics to go from 'Molly is a potential threat to me' to 'Molly is a potential threat to the continued defence of reality' to 'Molly is a threat to reality' to 'Molly delenda est.'
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What would be the point? Whampires are a very good type of bakemono. Stable, able to sustain themselves in a society, with a decently high achievable power level.
- Location
- Germany
Agreed, Vampires are objectivly better than any Bakemono or maybe our Dhampyr-variant with awakened P'o could be.