Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Aeondrac]

Secondly; this isn't a spirit, it's part of the greater akuma's P'o that is usually basically indestructible

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It is absolutely a spirit as far as Exalted permadeath Charms are concerned, the same way astral projections, chimerical creatures, ghosts, memophores (Digital Web natives) and deathcycle Amenti are all "spirits", despite all of those not being native to the Middle Umbra and using different stats.

Also since when have exalted cared about indestructible, spirit killers are literally capable of offing Primordials if the Primordial doesn't defend, the idea they can't damage a small part of a soul is laughable.

 

[uju32]

Aggravated damage does nothing special to a wayang. There is nothing that is listed as being able to even interact with the spark of P'o that controls it or prevents it returning to its source. Us doing something that destroys it is a giant red flag that we might be able to similarly prevent a greater akuma's soul from returning to its master.

Spirit killing charms also do nothing, as I recall, to things produced by Exalted charms that allow projecting their consciousness or part of their soul.

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That is probably inaccurate in a setting where people sell chunks of their soul for power and where its explicit that the Hellweaving Discipline allows akuma to devour Po souls for power.
Hellweaving 8

8 · Gift Of P'o · [ Kindred of the East Companion — Page 72 ] When the akuma invokes this power, he calls upon a Yama King or his demonic mentor to grant him naked P'o souls from the Yomi World. He may then use these souls to create servants, or simply consume them for power.

System: The akuma spends two points of Demon Chi and rolls Intelligence + Rituals (difficulty 8). For every success obtained, the Yama Kings grant him one P'o soul to do with as he wills. He may fuse that P'o into a corpse, thus creating a primitive, yet powerful chih-mei that serves him slavishly (but which can never advance beyond chih-mei state to greater enlightenment) for a night. Alternately, he can consume the soul, gaining two temporary Demon Chi for every soul consumed (maximum of 10 Demon Chi). These temporary points of Demon Chi remain for one night per success, after which they dissipate if not already spent. Sacrifice: Eight corpses.

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Exalted arent spirits though?
They're still human. And the clone charms of Adorjan produced entities without souls anyway.

 

[Aeondrac]

The 5th dot power of the Chi'iu Muh Discipline also allows Wan Kuei to straight up rip souls out of people and eat them and that isn't even an elder power.

There are loads of things in WoD that can mess with and harm souls and it is not like DF is exactly lacking them either.

Spirit killing charms also do nothing, as I recall, to things produced by Exalted charms that allow projecting their consciousness or part of their soul.

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Celestial Exalted get possession immunity, innate counter magic and perfect defenses, but if they face something that gets though all that they aren't any more immune to soul death than any other powerful being. The Exaltation is invulnerable but the rest of the Exalt isn't.

 

[Artemis1992]

They're still human. And the clone charms of Adorjan produced entities without souls anyway.

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Pretty sure DP explained that Molly Prime and her Clones would still be part of the same entity.

 

[DragonParadox]

Pretty sure DP explained that Molly Prime and her Clones would still be part of the same entity.

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They would be yes, Molly just would not be conscious of that fact, she would experience it as two distinct Mollys because of her fundamentally human mindset. That said she also does not have that charm now so she has no idea IC what a spirit killer would do to one of her clones, how that may be the same or different from the shadow in front of you. Right now she has a sense that murder is meat would do... something to the being before her, something it would not do to say one of Lydia's reanimated puppets.

 

[TonedMite]

[X] A Shadow is part of the soul is it not? A hunger stirs within (Kill the wayang and try to use Murder is Meat on it)

 

[Aeondrac]

Extra selves from SGI are fully living material creatures, their interaction with spirit/soul targeting effects is going to be rather different to an immaterial entity's.

Incidentially SGI clones are only seperate until they remerge, when that happens both Mollys become a unified Molly again (well it's a bit more complex as she likely wouldn't be remerging with all clones at once). They aren't just one entity at a metaphysical level, they also experientially mingle as well. That would result in Molly becoming used to remebering multiple overlapping experiences over time.

Actually what would happen if you actually directly target the soul of a SGI self is rather interesting to think about as they are sharing a single unified soul. Which means the full exalt defensive package is likely in place as their isn't actually a difference between Molly's selves at that level.

 

[uju32]

The 5th dot power of the Chi'iu Muh Discipline also allows Wan Kuei to straight up rip souls out of people and eat them and that isn't even an elder power.

There are loads of things in WoD that can mess with and harm souls and it is not like DF is exa

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Oh certainly. I quote:

• • • • • Spirit-Eating With this awesome power, the vampire may physically remove the soul from a victim's body. Hun-dominated vampires use this ability to work healing magic or set a tormented soul right, while P'o-dominated vampires use the art to devour souls outright. The vampire must be within 10 feet of the victim and must stare into the victim's eyes with his third eye. The vampire, and anyone else using Chi sight, can actually see the ghostly soul flow from the victim's body and enter the vampire's eye. System (Hun): To remove a soul from the body, the vampire must look into the eyes of her target. If the target is unwilling, the vampire must roll Hun (difficulty 6) in an extended roll and garner three successes; the target resists with Willpower. Success enables the vampire to pull the soul or spirit through her third eye and into her body. The victim lapses into a catatonic state and must be told to eat, avoid harm, etc. The victim's soul joins with the vampire's own, and the vampire can begin a process of purgation on the soul. For each point of Willpower spent, the vampire may restore one point of lost Hun or Humanity to the victim. For five Willpower points, the vampire may attempt to set a fellow Kuei-jin back on his Dharmic path. This feat requires a roll of Wits + Enigmas (difficulty of the victim's P'o); if successful, the victim regains the Dharmic point he lost. System (P'o): The vampire removes the victim's soul, then gives it to her P'o as a "chew toy." To do so, the vampire rolls P'o (difficulty of the victim's Willpower). Success wrenches the soul from the body which then lapses into a comatose state, as above. This power may never be used on Kuei-jin of a higher Dharma. • The vampire may choose simply to torture the soul. This act lasts for an entire night and scars the victim's soul, which returns to its body with a permanent Derangement. While tormenting the soul, the vampire may implant any commands desired or even go so far as to change the victim's Nature. • The vampire may eat the soul, thus fusing it to her own. This act automatically costs a point of permanent Dharma, unless the vampire follows the Howl of the Devil-Tiger Dharma or is in service to a Yama King. A vampire who eats a being's soul gains access to that being's memories and Knowledge Abilities for one day per point of the vampire's P'o. The victim immediately dies.​

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So yeah.

Celestial Exalted get possession immunity, innate counter magic and perfect defenses, but if they face something that gets though all that they aren't any more immune to soul death than any other powerful being. The Exaltation is invulnerable but the rest of the Exalt isn't.

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Oh sure.
You still have to burn through all the clones of an Infernal and their Essence levels to kill them though.
At least thats my understanding.

Pretty sure DP explained that Molly Prime and her Clones would still be part of the same entity.

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Oh sure.
I was talking about Exalted 2E's Adorjan and the Spintered Gale Shintai of that charmset.

 

[Nyarky]

Spirit Killer shouldn't work, or we are opening up our Clone-Charm to a world of problems.

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Look at it this way, whether or not our Clone-charm interacts with spirit-killers is not dependent on our decision here, but having information on this fact is, since the QM already confirmed that it will do something anyway, I think it's better to test to see what than stay ignorant.

 

[BronzeTongue]

In WoD terms, a wayang absolutely isn't a spirit. It doesn't have Rage and Gnosis and isn't made of essence.

It's another kind of semi-corporeal entity. Spirit is a specific system term for a type of entity.

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That's being pretty myopic about it. The point of spirit killers is to allow you to properly kill things that can't otherwise be killed. To my understanding in base exalted they basically work on anything supernatural ranging from wyld critters to gods and elementals.

MiM was homebrewed into a spirit killer so that we wouldn't immediately and constantly push towards homebrewing one and never bother with the base equivalent.

Taking your approach here just means we back to doing that anyway.

[X] A Shadow is part of the soul is it not? A hunger stirs within (Kill the wayang and try to use Murder is Meat on

If it works we could really use the essence.

Edit:

shoulder. If it comes down to it you're pretty sure you can stitch them back on later.

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As an aside, did stabbing these guys tell us if they taste like chicken?

I'm still curious if lesser Akuma count as essence rich energy supplements or junk food by the standards of Molly's horrific new hell-maw MiM.

 

[Alratan]

Celestial Exalted get possession immunity, innate counter magic and perfect defenses, but if they face something that gets though all that they aren't any more immune to soul death than any other powerful being. The Exaltation is invulnerable but the rest of the Exalt isn't.

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Murder is Meat would still do nothing to Exalted as they're invalid targets for the charm. Murder is Meat only has a special effect on spirits and ghosts (beyond the act of murder feeding the infernal). Things that aren't spirits or ghosts can't have that additional effect activated.

That is probably inaccurate in a setting where people sell chunks of their soul for power and where its explicit that the Hellweaving Discipline allows akuma to devour Po souls for power.
Hellweaving 8


Exalted arent spirits though?
They're still human. And the clone charms of Adorjan produced entities without souls anyway.

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Sparks of the P'o aren't P'o souls either though.

Extra selves from SGI are fully living material creatures, their interaction with spirit/soul targeting effects is going to be rather different to an immaterial entity's.

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Wayang aren't immaterial though. They're semi-tangible, not immaterial. They have to squeeze through gaps, they can't walk through walls.

The 5th dot power of the Chi'iu Muh Discipline also allows Wan Kuei to straight up rip souls out of people and eat them and that isn't even an elder power.

There are loads of things in WoD that can mess with and harm souls and it is not like DF is exactly lacking them either.

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The spark of P'o that directs a Wayang isn't a soul. And Murder is Meat can't target most souls, only spirits and ghosts.

It is absolutely a spirit as far as Exalted permadeath Charms are concerned, the same way astral projections, chimerical creatures, ghosts, memophores (Digital Web natives) and deathcycle Amenti are all "spirits", despite all of those not being native to the Middle Umbra and using different stats.

Also since when have exalted cared about indestructible, spirit killers are literally capable of offing Primordials if the Primordial doesn't defend, the idea they can't damage a small part of a soul is laughable.

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In the context of Murder is Meat they aren't. This is made clear by how the charm targets spirits and ghosts, making it clear that ghosts aren't a subcategory of spirit, and so that other non-spirit entities aren't either.

That's being pretty myopic about it. The point of spirit killers is to allow you to properly kill things that can't otherwise be killed. To my understanding in base exalted they basically work on anything supernatural ranging from wyld critters to gods and elementals.

MiM was homebrewed into a spirit killer so that we wouldn't immediately and constantly push towards homebrewing one and never bother with the base equivalent.

Taking your approach here just means we back to doing that anyway.

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To be precise; spirit killers aren't actually spirit killers, what they do is make sure that when you kill a spirit it can't resurrect, enforcing the no-take-backs principle. If you can't kill something in the first place, the primacy of defence applies and the spirit killer does nothing.

And we can stop the wayang from coming back without Murder is Meat. We kill the Greater Akuma. Just as the way you stop a 2nd Circle Soul being recreated isn't a spirit killer, it's killing the 3rd Circle Oversoul.

 

[Yog]

Did the ritual Harry hijacked go off? I missed this.

 

[DragonParadox]

Did the ritual Harry hijacked go off? I missed this.

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As far as you know no ritual has been invoked so far, but it has been literally 1 round since you engaged.

 

[BronzeTongue]

As an aside from the angle of infernals being infant primordials, where does using MiM on random things map to developmentally?

Is it that stage where babies try to stick anything they can reach into their mouths just because they can, or where teething kids compulsively chew on things as their teeth grow in?

To be precise; spirit killers aren't actually spirit killers, what they do is make sure that when you kill a spirit it can't resurrect, enforcing the no-take-backs principle. If you can't kill something in the first place, the primacy of defence applies and the spirit killer does nothing.

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You're still missing the point. Spirit killer is a term inherited from exalted where, to my knowledge, the intent was something much more general.

The intended role of the charm is so that things that otherwise have a get out of death free card can have it revoked. So once you can hurt it a spirit killer is supposed to make sure it dies. Primacy of defense doesn't passively eliminate an active effect of something after it's defeated your trick for avoiding harm.

Exalts are designed to kill things that couldn't die, that the idea didn't even make sense in context to attempt. Being able to do this specific kind of impossible is a core function for them.

 

[Acolyte]

So away from the speculative thing about mim.

Two things
@DragonParadox
First, i think you should definitely keep the thing about charms only using our base stamina. 17 soak is too much, like its exactly the kind of needless power escalation that i am afraid of. It will warp the world more as most things won't be able to harm us. So stick to the no boosted rolls for charms please.


Secondly, since we will be awakening our operatives p'o will they be able to be eligible to get the nushi background. Which is essentially a totem that let them access its power for more versatility. It would be a great way to emphasis the group nature of humanity.

 

[DragonParadox]

So away from the speculative thing about mim.

Two things
@DragonParadox
First, i think you should definitely keep the thing about charms only using our base stamina. 17 soak is too much, like its exactly the kind of needless power escalation that i am afraid of. It will warp the world more as most things won't be able to harm us. So stick to the no boosted rolls for charms please.


Secondly, since we will be awakening our operatives p'o will they be able to be eligible to get the nushi background. Which is essentially a totem that let them access its power for more versatility. It would be a great way to emphasis the group nature of humanity.

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1. It is only so high because you rolled well for that willpower
2. Yes... once you get your Hell, no other spirits would trust the artificial pseudo-vampires who swirl with the mark of elder darkness.

 

[Yzarc]

First, i think you should definitely keep the thing about charms only using our base stamina. 17 soak is too much,

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Take it up with holden. He designed this. Besides which, this is working as jntended. There is a quote from Holden on this exact thing.

 

[Acolyte]

Yes... once you get your Hell, no other spirits would trust the artificial pseudo-vampires who swirl with the mark of elder darkness.

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We will have our own spirits by that point then. So its a fair exchange.

Take it up with holden. He designed this. Besides which, this is working as jntended. There is a quote from Holden on this exact thing.

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It is only so high because you rolled well for that willpower

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If a mechanics is going to ruin the game, we can change it to be more reasonable no matter what holden says.


We will always roll decently with difficulty adjusters. Please try out about 10 different rolls and see what the average would be. Its potentially adding 6 extra soak on average if my back of the napkin math is correct. 3 succes on average which are doubled.

 

[Alratan]

As an aside from the angle of infernals being infant primordials, where does using MiM on random things map to developmentally?

Is it that stage where babies try to stick anything they can reach into their mouths just because they can, or where teething kids compulsively chew on things as their teeth grow in?


You're still missing the point. Spirit killer is a term inherited from exalted where, to my knowledge, the intent was something much more general.

The intended role of the charm is so that things that otherwise have a get out of death free card can have it revoked. So once you can hurt it a spirit killer is supposed to make sure it dies. Primacy of defense doesn't passively eliminate an active effect of something after it's defeated your trick for avoiding harm.

Exalts are designed to kill things that couldn't die, that the idea didn't even make sense in context to attempt. Being able to do this specific kind of impossible is a core function for them.

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Spirit killers never let you kill things that wouldn't die. They only ever let you stop things you killed coming back to life (or 'life' in the case of ghosts). Someone with an efficient enough perfect defence could and would be literally indestructible. The Exalted killed some Primordials but they didn't kill them all, presumably because they had good enough defences that they couldn't manage it.

And actually, based on the evidence we have, solar spirit killing techniques don't actually destroy souls. From Books of Sorcery V: Gods and Demons:

Certain Exalted Charms are also capable of completely destroying a ghost, eliminating any possibility of reformation. Generally, such Charms send the ghost directly into Lethe, except for Abyssal Charms, which usually send them into Oblivion.​

This is explicitly talking about Ghost Eating and similar. Things slain with Abyssal charms are probably actually destroyed through.

This is also explain why the slain Primordials became Neverborn. They had spirit 'killing' charms used on them and were sent directly to Lethe without the chance of resurrection, but didn't fit, so becoming Neverborn, as the Primordials hadn't built Lethe to be able to process them.

Also, not all spirit killer charms necessarily work on all categories of being. You could easily have charms that only prevent ghosts from reforming, or elementals, or demons, of fey folk, or whatever.

Otherwise you very quickly run into the question of why you can't perms-kill Exaltations with spirit killers, as they're certainly just as much in the spirit category as various other entities in WoD/Dresden Files.

 

[BronzeTongue]

First, i think you should definitely keep the thing about charms only using our base stamina. 17 soak is too much, like its exactly the kind of needless power escalation that i am afraid of.

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To be fair, being a soak monster is sort of a key bit of the infernal kit. It's also relevant because of how multi-action works here. Super soak looks great at first blush, but any serious opponent with multi-attack is going to seriously reduce that.

There's also the matter that for exalts essence economy is their key combat weakness. Super soak is something we buy with our mote pool and per turn bottleneck.

Buying the wrong things or spending too much at the wrong time is the sort of mistake that gets an exalt killed even through the defensive buffs.

If you read the story teller guide in the ExWoD book that's functioning as intended:

all that poWer
Cutting straight to the chase: the Exalted are pow- erful. A group of Exalts can reasonably expect to fight a pack of werewolves and come out on top, throw down with an elder vampire with no prep, and otherwise run roughshod over most anything that gets in their way. This is by design. Celestial Exalts, in particular, fly above the standard power curve of the world into which they've been reborn.
It's not limitless power, mind. Essence is easier to come by than most supernatural resources, but it's hard to make more of it show up when you need it. In Exalted, it's not hard to rig up a Dawn Caste to be able to literally cut down armies of lesser opponents. In Exalted vs World of Darkness, a Dawn Caste cut- ting loose on full blast can be effectively invincible and unstoppable for one or two scenes, and then their Es- sence supply is going to falter and they're going to have problems. It's a lot easier to run an Exalt ragged.

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[Nyarky]

If a mechanics is going to ruin the game, we can change it to be more reasonable no matter what holden says.

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Do you have proof of that happening though? It's far too soon to begin telling that, besides, it's a personal charm, there are ways around it that don't require any deaths stars on the antagonists sides, the QM can use the fact that our allies are vulnerable, he can change the type of *conflict* we face, it's way too soon to say *game ruined* or anything.

Spirit killers never let you kill things that wouldn't die. They only ever let you stop things you killed coming back to life

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Huh:

The Exalted killed some Primordials

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You do know that you just contradicted yourself there? Primordials aren't in the *ressurect when killed* category, in fact, the neverbron are entirely due to the fact that they couldn't die and so didn't design their recycling system to handle them dying. The exalted hosts didn't kill all primordials because they surrendered and killing them wasn't necessarily making things better, not because they couldn't, they absolutely could've.

 

[Alratan]

Huh:

You do know that you just contradicted yourself there? Primordials aren't in the *ressurect when killed* category, in fact, the neverbron are entirely due to the fact that they couldn't die and so didn't design their recycling system to handle them dying. The exalted hosts didn't kill all primordials because they surrendered and killing them wasn't necessarily making things better, not because they couldn't, they absolutely could've.

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By RAW, Primordials aren't even valid targets to activate Ghost Eating Technique on (Primordials themselves aren't spirits). It was used in the process of killing Primordials, but the details of how that happened isn't made clear. For example, perhaps it was used to kill critical 3rd Circle souls that represented parts of their nature responsible for their defences and so left them vulnerable to being killed before the Primordial could recreate them. That part of the Primordial War isn't described. GET and its friends could well have been necessary but not sufficient.

The key counter-example is, as I said above, Celestial Exaltations. By the definitions for spirit people are using, Exaltations are most certainly spirits. They're described as Exalt's third souls, they're incorporeal constructs of essence, and they have something strongly resembling sentience (although not sapience). However, spirit 'killing' charms can't destroy them, and they don't even seem to be valid targets for things like GET.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Spirit killers never let you kill things that wouldn't die. They only ever let you stop things you killed coming back to life (or 'life' in the case of ghosts). Someone with an efficient enough perfect defence could and would be literally indestructible.

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The mechanism of action is that you destroy the target once you manage to hurt it enough to stop it from resisting. Perfect defenses counter it because they stop you from getting hurt in the first place, but no perfect is actually infallible. By the time MiM or similar come into play you aren't capable of using them anymore.

Your quote says generally, but when you read the charms they specifically call out destroying souls and scattering the remains. Maybe sending the undifferentiated scraps to the Lethe counts as making them move on, but for all practical purposes you're deleting the entity.

This is also explain why the slain Primordials became Neverborn. They had spirit 'killing' charms used on them and were sent directly to Lethe without the chance of resurrection, but didn't fit, so becoming Neverborn, as the Primordials hadn't built Lethe to be able to process them.

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Or they blended them into soup and let it drain away without thinking about what would happen to the energy afterwards.

Remember that the exalts thought that the dead primordials were gone entirely, which is why they weren't on the lookout for anything. So did Autobot and the gods for that matter.

Given how the neverborn place so much emphasis on rejection of identity in Abyssals and how different they themselves were I think they were arguably right.

The issue was that the exalts thought the energy would turn into wyld juice or something, but no one had ever seen a primordial die before and didn't know that the husks left behind would eventually congeal into something loosely capable of action again.

Otherwise you very quickly run into the question of why you can't perms-kill Exaltations with spirit killers, as they're certainly just as much in the spirit category as various other entities in WoD/Dresden Files.

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Because exaltations are bullshit, always have been. Spirit killers don't work on them because they're the transcendent work of a primordial with a specific hack on reality that plays silly games with normal rules.

 

[Acolyte]

Do you have proof of that happening though

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Yeah, the entire sword without a hilt thread. Escalation of ever more optimized casting classes was one of the major classes was one of the bigger problems towards the end. I am willing to be weaker so that DP doesn't have to build ever more optimized WOD creatures for us to fight.

that our allies are vulnerable, he can change the type of *conflict* we face, it's way too soon to say *game ruined* or anything.

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That happed in Sword too, doesn't mean that the enemy doesn't have to be physically threatening as well.


Just look at ethniu debate we had a few days ago, like she could have solved all her problems by killing anyone in combat, we will soon approch those problems at this rate.


I rather we be weaker than have the story be warped by our personal combat skills. Because ultimately all problems are solvable if you have enough force.

 

[Alratan]

The mechanism of action is that you destroy the target once you manage to hurt it enough to stop it from resisting. Perfect defenses counter it because they stop you from getting hurt in the first place, but no perfect is actually infallible. By the time MiM or similar come into play you aren't capable of using them anymore.

Your quote says generally, but when you read the charms they specifically call out destroying souls and scattering the remains. Maybe sending the undifferentiated scraps to the Lethe counts as making them move on, but for all practical purposes you're deleting the entity.

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Solars only had one ghost killing charm at that point. It can only be referring to GET.

And it doesn't send undifferentiated scraps. It pretty explicitly sends complete souls which Lethe then erases the memories of and reincarnates, as that's what Lethe does.

There are perfect defences out there; they for example, trigger only to prevent a creature losing their last health level. You can be hurt to the point of almost dying but the perfect defence means you cannot be killed.

As you can't be killed, spirit 'killing' charms can't be activated. There's no 'unable to resist clause'. GET, for example, can only be activated after killing a spirit. It can't be activated if you can't kill them. It also can't be activated if an Exalt is using a resurrection charms or spell, which exist, as they're not valid targets. For example, the canon spirit killers couldn't be used stop an Infernal resurrecting in a Splintered Gale Shintai clone. Arguably no charm could be; as it has the Imperfection of the Silent Wind it is itself a perfect defence to which the Primacy of Defence applies.

Because exaltations are bullshit, always have been. Spirit killers don't work on them because they're the transcendent work of a primordial with a specific hack on reality that plays silly games with normal rules.

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By the principles people are using here spirit 'killers' should work on them. As they don't it's evidence that this isn't as simple a category as people are making out.