Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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I meant that more as an example that we don't generally have to follow metaphysical laws.
From Theion's supremacy down to minor things, like the fact that we can ignor thresholds and our magic doesn't get any weaker in fire or water or any other of the minor issues much of Dresden Files has to deal with.

Haunts are not exactly powerful and if some obscure law allows them to prey on children, we can certainly ignore that and go for MiM against them.


Mouse at least can see them.

So with a mix of magical perception (either Sight or Hellscry Chakra) and mental defence I don't see any reason why we couldn't.
We could hear that annoying sound by enhancing our Perception after all, so the magical equivalent should work too.


I'm not really in favor of immediate killing sprees in most cases, we took the Crown of Eyes, not the Crown of Wrath.
But I definitly don't like the status quo of reality and I can't imagine Molly likes it much more once she knows enough.

Changing it should definitly be our goal.

And I think you are somewhat underestimating our projected powerlevels.

Even aside from personal combat, we can definitly start taking over more Yama-Hells once we have established our own.
Using our already large powerbase in the Nevernever to conquer a huge one is the basic function of Infernals after all, no matter if the Infernal wants to make things better or just rule over the ashes of creation.
I doubt uju is saying he wants the status quo so much as saying the idea of just killing mab cause we don't like her and she does bad things is a stupid idea. Fairly sure he would willingly kill Mab if we had solutions to the problems that come with it.
 
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And we are Exalted. We don't have to give a damn about the laws, just as we don't have to give a damn about thresholds.
Some person wielding our Exaltation an immesurably long time ago saw that the LAW was that Theion was King above all, ruler and master of Creation and well capable of ending any though of dissent with a glance.

They didn't give a fuck, and though that wielder propably died shortly afterwards, as did the next dozens or hundreds of Chosen, today the Exaltation is still there and Theion is not even a memory.

Well Theion is the flame reflected in the prism of your Exaltation, he is the pride you feel in crushing your enemy and in gaining mastery over your subjects

I rather doubt that. Real talk.
This is significantly overestimating our projected maximum power levels.

Molly's projected maximum power levels are not... well knowable. Exaltations are defined by two things:
  • Being unbreakable
  • The capacity to grow to overcome any obstacle
Now might you guys OOC and Molly IC might not want to pay the price for power at certain junctures, but that is not a matter of the exaltation leveling out. Also you know Molly could just die in the attempt.
 
The world needs a solution to Winter not being capable of defending the Outer Gates alone anyway. They are already either overstretched or derelict, killing Mab is more a part of the process.

Breaking the Faerie Courts is a serious part of actually improving the general situation because of how important they are for protecting one of the most prolific groups of supernatural predators and abusers. Especially given that the Fae are literally incapable of not seeking revenge for any "slight". Any attempt to reign then in will run into their literal inability to accept anything they perceive as a loss without repaying the "debt".
 
Well Theion is the flame reflected in the prism of your Exaltation, he is the pride you feel in crushing your enemy and in gaining mastery over your subjects



Molly's projected maximum power levels are not... well knowable. Exaltations are defined by two things:
  • Being unbreakable
  • The capacity to grow to overcome any obstacle
Now might you guys OOC and Molly IC might not want to pay the price for power at certain junctures, but that is not a matter of the exaltation leveling out. Also you know Molly could just die in the attempt.
Are we allowed to build rules for going beyond 5 essence in this quest or is it impossible? I know it would be years from now before that matters have you thought about it before though?
 
The world needs a solution to Winter not being capable of defending the Outer Gates alone anyway. They are already either overstretched or derelict, killing Mab is more a part of the process.

Breaking the Faerie Courts is a serious part of actually improving the general situation because of how important they are for protecting one of the most prolific groups of supernatural predators and abusers. Especially given that the Fae are literally incapable of not seeking revenge for any "slight". Any attempt to reign then in will run into their literal inability to accept anything they perceive as a loss without repaying the "debt".
fairly sure we should find solutions before going to murder the things defending us. Not the other way around.
 
My one argument about how we could beat mab at essence 3 is that dp gave a god damn white court vampire who isn't even the head of their respective branch a 7 dot ability. A WHITE COURT VAMPIRE the generally on average weakest vampires. can you even fucking imagine what heads of respective branches have or god forbid gods and beings of said power?

I'm not familiar with how strong a 7 dot ability is, but I am very familiar with how strong Mab and Titania are. We've seen them go all out in a fight in BG.

And they do not impress. I'm not saying Molly as an Exalted is insanely strong in absolute terms, I'm just saying relative to what we've seen the Queens of the Faerie Court show, Molly won't find it hard to pimpslap them in a fight.

Look at it this way:
Titania's most impressive move, at the height of her power during Midsummer, was making it rain hard enough to shut off the Eye and weaken Ethniu. Guess what water does to Molly?

Mab, though at her weakest, still had to tank the Eye not with a Perfect Defense that costs only 1 or 2 Essence for Molly, but straight out of her power reserves to the point of dropping out of exhaustion. If Molly brings a few MOABs to the fight, Mab will run out of power defending first.

Really, not just relatively but in absolute terms, the Queens at least aren't good at fighting Mano a Mano. And that's okay! They can still have a worldwide influence in terms of the reach of their respective courts and their influence on the climate. But we've seen what they can do when somebody gets within arms reach of them, so we know they're very much glass cannons in a straight fight.
 
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I'm not familiar with how strong a 7 dot ability is, but I am very familiar with how strong Mab and Titania are. We've seen them go all out in a fight in BG.

And they do not impress. I'm not saying Molly as an Exalted is insanely strong in absolute terms, I'm just saying relative to what we've seen the Queens of the Faerie Court show, Molly won't find it hard to pimpslap them in a fight.

Look at it this way:
Titania's most impressive move, at the height of her power during Midsummer, was making it rain hard enough to shut off the Eye and weaken Ethniu. Guess what water does to Molly?

Mab, though at her weakest, still had to tank the Eye not with a Perfect Defense that costs only 1 or 2 Essence for Molly, but straight out of her power reserves to the point of dropping out of exhaustion. If Molly brings a few MOABs to the fight, Mab will run out of power defending first.

Really, not just relatively but in absolute terms, the Queens at least aren't good at fighting mano a Mano. And that's okay! They can still have a worldwide influence in terms of the reach of their respective courts and their influence on the climate. But we've seen what they can do when somebody gets within arms reach of them, so we know they're very much glass cannons in a straight fight.
7 dot abilities are fairly insane depending on which ones the basis of which requires seven fucking dots. We can't do that which is why I'd curb our arrogance when we haven't seen how dp has changed things here and I'm sure he has to make things more powerful. Do shit like yama kings even have stats guys?
 
I think awes a bit much we are not a crafting specialist.
I dispute that. We might not be full exalted crafting specialist yet, but craft is one of our strengths and in many situations a go-to solution to our problems.
Also what do we even want repeat business from Odin for?
Odin should be one of, if not the best possible divination, and possibly enchantment tutors in the setting, as well as a good political ally, and most likely a way to obtain ancient artifacts, crafting materials and lore.
We have neither time nor need to arm his forces. And rule one of weapons selling only sell obsolete stuff so when you go up aginst it your guys win.
Even if we go full-out (CCC, shenaniganing TLF, BSM, WHWH, excellencies galore, with cyberdevil dice adding to the total pool, etc), it'd still be obsolete quickly. We are at craft 3. At craft 5 that's +4 dice effectively. With alchemy dots we have now we can buy ability enhancer for 2 xp, which is +2 dice more. That's +6 more dice. When going all-out we should be rolling against difficulty 5 at most, and likely 3. So, that's +3-4 successes. That's almost surely one degree of "legendarity" more than what we are capable of now.
Seems like the way to go would be vehicles that appear completely mundane to better blend in with the muggles, but incorporating magic for defense, speed, stealth, etc.
Knight Rider cars are entirely possible right now.

Winter and the rest of the fae have paid this price for thousands of years on behalf of everyone else.
If I ever seem a little impatient with people pontificating about how Winter is evil and should be destroyed, this is why.
And that's still stupid. Solutions to this do exist that don't require child trafficking. Especially in the modern world. Mab is operating a conscription based army in the Russian Empire's model, where you essentially take a number of recruits from a settlement and they are in for life. From the looks of it the soldiers, as part of winter, are also subjected to brainwashing by Winter's Law to make them more aggressive. Historically this system has proven itself efficient at a certain point of technological and social development - there's a reason why Russian Empire was called gendarme of Europe at a certain point of history. However, it has since been obsoleted by professional armies and other more modern ways to organize your combat forces.

Winter's military paradigm is an artifact of the past, operated by and shackled by its millenia-old rulers who are in turn thoroughly altered by their millenia-old Law screwing with their minds. They are also very much in the "hard men making hard decisions while hard" trap, where they have a role and consider it is their duty to carry it out without involving others. Especially without involving humanity.

A broken masquerade and a full involvement of modern humanity in defending itself from outsiders would be a net benefit to basically everyone. And that's before you consider aliens in the setting.
I rather doubt that. Real talk.
This is significantly overestimating our projected maximum power levels.
Yes, you have the tendency to severely downplay our potential power levels while strongly overestimating Mab's.
 
I dispute that. We might not be full exalted crafting specialist yet, but craft is one of our strengths and in many situations a go-to solution to our problems.

Odin should be one of, if not the best possible divination, and possibly enchantment tutors in the setting, as well as a good political ally, and most likely a way to obtain ancient artifacts, crafting materials and lore.

Even if we go full-out (CCC, shenaniganing TLF, BSM, WHWH, excellencies galore, with cyberdevil dice adding to the total pool, etc), it'd still be obsolete quickly. We are at craft 3. At craft 5 that's +4 dice effectively. With alchemy dots we have now we can buy ability enhancer for 2 xp, which is +2 dice more. That's +6 more dice. When going all-out we should be rolling against difficulty 5 at most, and likely 3. So, that's +3-4 successes. That's almost surely one degree of "legendarity" more than what we are capable of now.

Knight Rider cars are entirely possible right now.


And that's still stupid. Solutions to this do exist that don't require child trafficking. Especially in the modern world. Mab is operating a conscription based army in the Russian Empire's model, where you essentially take a number of recruits from a settlement and they are in for life. From the looks of it the soldiers, as part of winter, are also subjected to brainwashing by Winter's Law to make them more aggressive. Historically this system has proven itself efficient at a certain point of technological and social development - there's a reason why Russian Empire was called gendarme of Europe at a certain point of history. However, it has since been obsoleted by professional armies and other more modern ways to organize your combat forces.

Winter's military paradigm is an artifact of the past, operated by and shackled by its millenia-old rulers who are in turn thoroughly altered by their millenia-old Law screwing with their minds. They are also very much in the "hard men making hard decisions while hard" trap, where they have a role and consider it is their duty to carry it out without involving others. Especially without involving humanity.

A broken masquerade and a full involvement of modern humanity in defending itself from outsiders would be a net benefit to basically everyone. And that's before you consider aliens in the setting.

Yes, you have the tendency to severely downplay our potential power levels while strongly overestimating Mab's.
I figure slight overestimation is a bit fair given one white court vampire must have a 7 dot ability which doesn't say great things about what the real threats are like.
 
From what we've seen in BG, the Queens are not strong enough in personal combat to fight a combat specced Essence 3 Molly with at least 1 Perfect Defense.

DP may change this in this Quest as is his perogative as QM, so this calculation could be wrong. But so far as one could reasonably tell from BG, Molly stands a decent chance at absolutely murdering Mab/Titania if she finds herself locked in a white room death match with either.
 
I have been generally assuming the Queens powers are similar to what an exalted god of their demonstrated power (essence 7 maybe 8) would be like, as that is fairly consistent with the books (well they outperform BG).

Which is why I was stating at essence 4-5 with full combat suite Molly could directly fight them.

Edit:
And I mean the Queens powers here are equal to exalted gods' powers in Creation not what the gods would be reduced to here.
 
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I have been generally assuming the Queens powers are similar to what an exalted god of their demonstrated power (essence 7 maybe 8) would be like, as that is fairly consistent with the books (well they outperform BG).

Which is why I was stating at essence 4-5 with full combat suite Molly could directly fight them.
that sounds fair in quest considering the bullshit white court can do and white court are on average the weakest vampires isn't looking great for what the real power houses can do.
 
I figure slight overestimation is a bit fair given one white court vampire must have a 7 dot ability which doesn't say great things about what the real threats are like.
At theoretical E5 Molly should have:
20 essence motes to operate at a start. Using Shintai and Unbound Eschaton Shintai from the start that's 17 motes still available to her.
Molly's base stats would be STR 9, DEX 12, STA 9. She'll be moving 4 times as fast that stamina suggests at basis, and up to 20 times when given time. That's movement at any direction at will. She'll be rolling at permanent -2 DC (BSM + kingdom features incorporating stunts), with +4 dice (stunts, WHWH). She'll have several perfect defenses.

This is all before taking into account any additional empowerments, such as ability raising potions, stats raising enchanted objects (Enchantment 2 is explicitly "A more powerful version of a T alisman that could be previously made (adding +2 to an Ability or Attribute or +2 to some task)"), awakened Eye of the Dragon shenanigans with multiple Dragon Nests (including ones inside our own soul), etc. We should be rolling 40+ dice in combat for almost any given task. And adding perfect effects on top of that.

Mab "as she is" rolls 20 dice in social combat + UMI aura which we negate. I am fairly confident that theoretical E5 Molly with full combat panoply should be able to take Mab, Mab's close protection detail, and almost any bystander, and come out of it a winner.
 
That I suspect happened in Battleground, and do not take this as gospel, since we have not gotten to the point where it would be relevant in the quest, is that the 'squishy wizard' of the supernatural heavyweights had to tank a melee weapon with her face. Mab is good at mass destruction and doing titanic damage, but she did not have anyone on her level who could take the hit and cover for her.
 
but off topic in sheer dakka area of affect does an infernal exalt have access to anything in the first 5 essence that does as much dakka as what ebenezar pulled off in starting a volcano or orbital drop? I think I remember others saying no earlier just checking again though cause it's been a while and I'm sure others have looked at the stuff more since then.

Also I know pure dakka isn't the end all be all there are plenty of ways to kill a planet killer with something that can't even harm a sponge.
 
no hes really not the alternative is literal cthulhu level body horror and super slavery. Not to mention repeatedly hes contesting others claims about what they do. Also we can't just ignore parts of the setting like they don't exist.

The fact that the fight is evil vs oblivion doesn't change the fact that the evil side is evil, Winter being evil should not be something to react to with a shrug and a *what can you do?* it's something that should be changed, and if Winter cannot change, then the ideal is to replace it in the oblivion war before purging it's bad elements.

Molly's projected maximum power levels are not... well knowable. Exaltations are defined by two things:
  • Being unbreakable
  • The capacity to grow to overcome any obstacle
Now might you guys OOC and Molly IC might not want to pay the price for power at certain junctures, but that is not a matter of the exaltation leveling out. Also you know Molly could just die in the attempt.

In short: our maximum power level is N/A?

7 dot abilities are fairly insane depending on which ones the basis of which requires seven fucking dots. We can't do that which is why I'd curb our arrogance when we haven't seen how dp has changed things here and I'm sure he has to make things more powerful. Do shit like yama kings even have stats guys?

I think you are conflating several things here: the vampire we fought having an effect that is best simulated via a 7 dot discipline, him having a 7 dot discipline with the full might of what it can supposedly do behind it, that the white courts being the weakest in a sustained fight means they can't do spikes of strength and the fact that if he has this everybody has it.

We have evidence of the former, but not the second, and the guy wasn't a mook but an elder, the white court may be the weakest long term in a straight fight, but they can still punch in similar levels as the others, they just can't keep it up.
 
but off topic in sheer dakka area of affect does an infernal exalt have access to anything in the first 5 essence that does as much dakka as what ebenezar pulled off in starting a volcano or orbital drop? I think I remember others saying no earlier just checking again though cause it's been a while and I'm sure others have looked at the stuff more since then.

Also I know pure dakka isn't the end all be all there are plenty of ways to kill a planet killer with something that can't even harm a sponge.
There are very nasty charm combos. RVD + anything like Gifts of Invisible Flame (The landscape for (Essence x 50) yards around the place where the Infernal activated this Charm remains tainted for one day per success. Characters suffer one level of aggravated damage at the end of each scene spent within the irradiated zone.) area of effect scales hilariously if you are dispersed in an ocean. Erupting Fire Rebuke is only Essence X 10 yards, but it's a perfect effect of "everything crafted by human hands explodes".
 
The fact that the fight is evil vs oblivion doesn't change the fact that the evil side is evil, Winter being evil should not be something to react to with a shrug and a *what can you do?* it's something that should be changed, and if Winter cannot change, then the ideal is to replace it in the oblivion war before purging it's bad elements.



In short: our maximum power level is N/A?



I think you are conflating several things here: the vampire we fought having an effect that is best simulated via a 7 dot discipline, him having a 7 dot discipline with the full might of what it can supposedly do behind it, that the white courts being the weakest in a sustained fight means they can't do spikes of strength and the fact that if he has this everybody has it.

We have evidence of the former, but not the second, and the guy wasn't a mook but an elder, the white court may be the weakest long term in a straight fight, but they can still punch in similar levels as the others, they just can't keep it up.
Oh I'm not saying it's common heck it could even be unique just that the likelihood of each branch member of similar age having similar level abilities is good. Also for the heads to have even more bulltshit abilities.

Also it's not just sustained fights it's more just most general areas they're weaker in both mystical might and physical also with less general fuel. Mind you that's likely cause the other courts can have magic bullshit on their side. Like the white court has advantages like technical free will, emotion based bullshit, being able to blend in better and less weaknesses. Doesn't change the fact 7 dot stuff isn't really something you'd see in the books for white court vampires. Well maybe the white king all we see is him as a cripple and a lot of the other houses haven't been too fleshed out yet.

Also I mean yeah the ideal is to replace winter that's not really an argument. Just the way it's phrased now is basically having a tantrum that the world sucks and retaliating. Not to make things better but because we dislike whose I'm charge. Ultimately everything listed so far to do to them has amounted to things that would cause a lot of casualties and doesn't even begin to cover the glaring downsides that need to be addressed BEFORE we go to murdering anybody important.

Then the argument is you love the winter, or wank the winter, or boo status quo. We aren't arguing for status quo just better planning then killing what we don't like. This doesn't even begin to cover that basically all fae have a human origin to some degree though there are some holes in that butcher basically tells us he's not telling us why those holes exist yet. But, these beings likely didn't start with what they became and did it for what were probably good reasons. Maybe start with Yama kings first before going against one of the defenders of realities existence.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 29, 2023 at 3:48 AM, finished with 157 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] The location of the hostages and J
    [X] The location of the hostages and of the Greater Akuma
    -[X] Split up one Einherjer team and Valkyrie to go for the hostages, the rest of the group is on assault
    -[X] If the hostages are far enough from the majority of their captors, open up with the mortar and heavy-weapon team, expose as much as possible to the sunlight
    -[X] Molly will enter Shintai and use VLE before the opening shot, unless the enemies are far more spread out than we assumed
    -[X] Send Lydia's golems in first in case the nearest entry-points are trapped
    [X]STUNT: You catch yourself with an effort as words of the Lord's Prayer rise unbidden to your mind. Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation. With an effort you bring up J's face "This one was recruited under duress. How much duress, I dont know. Be careful." And while you're at it, you pull up the faces of the four bakemono you know, starting with the ten year old. "And these are mortals they put demons in. Just so you're aware of them."
 
but off topic in sheer dakka area of affect does an infernal exalt have access to anything in the first 5 essence that does as much dakka as what ebenezar pulled off in starting a volcano or orbital drop? I think I remember others saying no earlier just checking again though cause it's been a while and I'm sure others have looked at the stuff more since then.

Also I know pure dakka isn't the end all be all there are plenty of ways to kill a planet killer with something that can't even harm a sponge.
Fundamentally we are not great at area damage, though we could use Principle-Invoking Onslaught to make Davy Crockett nukes or stuff like that.

We can be incredibly deadly in personal combat though and that would be all it takes to kill any major figure in DF.
 
but off topic in sheer dakka area of affect does an infernal exalt have access to anything in the first 5 essence that does as much dakka as what ebenezar pulled off in starting a volcano or orbital drop? I think I remember others saying no earlier just checking again though cause it's been a while and I'm sure others have looked at the stuff more since then.

Also I know pure dakka isn't the end all be all there are plenty of ways to kill a planet killer with something that can't even harm a sponge.
In terms of large scale destruction Infernal charms top out at wiping out the area immediately around the Infernal.

However we can learn Paths of Sorcery that allow mass destruction. Master/Legendary Weather Control, which is the pinnacle of Hedge Magic for raw destruction, allows things like dropping a dozen tornados on a city for a week or creating 100 mile wide hurricanes/blizzards and similar acts of vast destruction.

And with the right craft charms making a nuclear weapon, even a pure fusion device is doable.
 
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