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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Aeondrac said:
I am pretty sure they are not rocking Antediluvian levels of power, if Emma-O could just deploy minions that strong he would be ruling most of the nevernever right now. They are certainly very scary but they certainly aren't rocking that much power.
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The other Yama Kings have their own; and in the Nevernever the old pantheons, the Fey Courts, and other powers can use their full abilities unrestricted by the limitations they suffer when operating in the world.

Note that Greater Akuma are very rare and valuable, and probably expensive to make*. The one time one defected Emma-O flipped the fuck out because it was a massive loss.

* one of the treatments requires capturing mortal Bodhisattva just before they transcend and become Buddhas and then using their bodies and souls as living refineries to manufacture the ingredients for it. That's not going to be easy.

This is why I'm saying we have to look for a more sophisticated approach than kicking the door in. A full frontal attack on a dug in enemy of this magnitude is likely to be a disaster. We need to find a weak point to exploit or way to resolve this without fighting the Will of Kakuri. If we're very lucky they're the one that wants to defect, and we have a chance of persuading them to ally with us rather than try to transfer the Exaltation to another vessel. This may be an encounter we can't win by combat, but have to win by diplomacy or intrigue.

There's a reason Emma-O is likely to be confident of his play here. It could well be that the Will is just that powerful.

Remember that ugu keeps saying about Mab, that we can't fight her directly. The Will of Kakuri may well be in the same category.

Artemis1992 said:
That's like a full Antedeluvian.

Not gonnahappen atthis stage of the game.
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They're notably weaker because of their smaller resource pools, but yes; a greater akuma is somewhere between a Methuselah and an Antedeluvian in strength. Even if you don't try to optimise them (and we know the Yama Kings do) they're going to have a couple of ten dot disciplines.

We're facing Mab at some point soon who is the same level of challenge, so why not?

It simply means we can't overcome this challenge with violence, just like we can't solo Winter.

Edit: this means we really need to find a focus to ask how powerful the Will of Kakuri is. The base case based on the rules we know is that they're basically impossible for us to face in combat right now, and for the medium term future.

Edit 2: The only know Greater Akuma to defy the Yama Kings by reclaiming their soul, Tashimoto Hanko, was also in service to Emma-O. Persuading another of his court to defect would be possibly the greatest humiliation we could inflict on his in front of his peers, and fair revenge for trying to steal our Exaltation.
 
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@DragonParadox is old South Works Steel Mill, a steel mill that's about to be torn down, an area of urban blight? It probably is, meaning that we have to fight there - that's the only place we have where we'd be fighting at -4 DC. If Dresden can make their ritual backfire, they'll probably be operating at +1 DC. That... Might be enough. Still, this is a war party that makes me think they weren't that hubristic when thinking they could take us.

There's a chance that, since they are fighting to capture us, the fight would trigger CCC.
 
Yog said:
@DragonParadox is old South Works Steel Mill, a steel mill that's about to be torn down, an area of urban blight? It probably is, meaning that we have to fight there - that's the only place we have where we'd be fighting at -4 DC. If Dresden can make their ritual backfire, they'll probably be operating at +1 DC. That... Might be enough. Still, this is a war party that makes me think they weren't that hubristic when thinking they could take us.

There's a chance that, since they are fighting to capture us, the fight would trigger CCC.
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Transcendent lord of Flies does not improve our ability to fight like that.

If we hunted for food, or build a shelter in that area, it would trigger.
Not if we go there to kill Wan Kuei.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Transcendent lord of Flies does not improve our ability to fight like that.

If we hunted for food, or build a shelter in that area, it would trigger.
Not if we go there to kill Wan Kuei.
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It improves our ability to "defend others". As long as we are not fighting alone, it should trigger because fighting Wan Kuei is protecting our comrades. It triggered when we made Bane, since the motivation was "protect members of Order of Cauldron".
 
Yog said:
@DragonParadox is old South Works Steel Mill, a steel mill that's about to be torn down, an area of urban blight? It probably is, meaning that we have to fight there - that's the only place we have where we'd be fighting at -4 DC. If Dresden can make their ritual backfire, they'll probably be operating at +1 DC. That... Might be enough. Still, this is a war party that makes me think they weren't that hubristic when thinking they could take us.

There's a chance that, since they are fighting to capture us, the fight would trigger CCC.
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TLF does not help with fighting, but if you wanted to scavenge for food there it will be easy. Also if you wanted to defend people from environmental dangers that too will work
 
Yog said:
It improves our ability to "defend others". As long as we are not fighting alone, it should trigger because fighting Wan Kuei is protecting our comrades. It triggered when we made Bane, since the motivation was "protect members of Order of Cauldron".
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It works to "protect" others and it's in the context of shelter, food and evironmental protection.

Going out of our way to attack these guys is not going to bring down our attack-DC.
 
Yog said:
@DragonParadox is old South Works Steel Mill, a steel mill that's about to be torn down, an area of urban blight? It probably is, meaning that we have to fight there - that's the only place we have where we'd be fighting at -4 DC. If Dresden can make their ritual backfire, they'll probably be operating at +1 DC. That... Might be enough. Still, this is a war party that makes me think they weren't that hubristic when thinking they could take us.

There's a chance that, since they are fighting to capture us, the fight would trigger CCC.
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Seriously, reading the rules for creating a Greater Akuma, this is a threat which endgame Molly and allies might find a very tough fight.

This makes me think two things:

1) We're not meant to overcome this challenge in a simple fight, and there's a reason why we were given the hook about some akuma wanting to escape their servitude.

2) We really need to get another Crown question in about their combat capabilities.

Because seriously, with 8-10 dot discipline powers plus the potential ability to cast 8-10 dot rituals (as you can also get treatments that boost ritual skill), the place could be warded and 'blessed' to hell and back, full of horrible traps.

Note that this is a steelworks, and Yin Prana gives power over metal. One of the example elder powers allows a Wan Kuei to 'eat' metal by touching it, corroding it in an instant (whatever size an object is) and recharging the vampire with Chi, giving them effectively infinite energy reserves. I think there are other Yin powers that allow you to merge with and reshape metal objects and ferrokinesis of various kinds would be a very obvious 'custom*' power.

A steelworks is a horrendous environment to fight a Yin aligned Wan Kuei elder. They've chosen their home ground very well.

* the elder powers in the book are just examples.
 
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[x] Yog
DragonParadox said:
TLF does not help with fighting, but if you wanted to scavenge for food there it will be easy. Also if you wanted to defend people from environmental dangers that too will work
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Quite the nerf to only protect against environmental dangers. Ah well sigh. I guess places of desolation are no longer our strongholds. We are not Lord of the flies. Just better are strapping though garbage.
 
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Alratan said:
We're not meant to overcome this challenge in a simple fight, and there's a reason why we were given the hook about some akuma wanting to escape their servitude.
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The issue here is that if this thing is so tough, other akuma rebelling won't matter to it.

A winning strategy could be to let our father deal with it (one on one duels are a thing Knights were built for) while we deal with the rest


Alratan said:
We really need to get another Crown question in about their combat capabilities.
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Agreed. Need to figure out best focus and question. What are the combat capabilities of everyone in the force unser lady Eiko's command?

Edit: I'll be heavily editing the plan in the next two oe three hours. If anyone has any suggestions, please feel free to propose them, or, well, make your own plans, I'll shamelessly steal the ideas I like.
 
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Alratan said:
Seriously, reading the rules for creating a Greater Akuma, this is a threat which endgame Molly and allies might find a very tough fight.

This makes me think two things:

1) We're not meant to overcome this challenge in a simple fight, and there's a reason why we were given the hook about some akuma wanting to escape their servitude.

2) We really need to get another Crown question in about their combat capabilities.

Because seriously, with 8-10 dot discipline powers plus the potential ability to cast 8-10 dot rituals (as you can also get treatments that boost ritual skill), the place could be warded and 'blessed' to hell and back, full of horrible traps.

Note that this is a steelworks, and Yin Prana gives power over metal. One of the example elder powers allows a Wan Kuei to 'eat' metal by touching it, corroding it in an instant (whatever size an object is) and recharging the vampire with Chi, giving them effectively infinite energy reserves. I think there are other Yin powers that allow you to merge with and reshape metal objects and ferrokinesis of various kinds would be a very obvious 'custom*' power.

A steelworks is a horrendous environment to fight a Yin aligned Wan Kuei elder. They've chosen their home ground very well.

* the elder powers in the book are just examples.
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A small reminder that not all greater Akuma have to be min-maxed just as not all Exalted have to be. Just like you Molly knows what the theoretical maximum of a Greater Akuma is (they could murder capital D Dragons) but that does not mean any Greater Akuma you meet will be among the strongest of their kind.
 
DragonParadox said:
A small reminder that not all greater Akuma have to be min-maxed just as not all Exalted have to be. Just like you Molly knows what the theoretical maximum of a Greater Akuma is (they could murder capital D Dragons) but that does not mean any Greater Akuma you meet will be among the strongest of their kind.
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While others studied the blade this akuma studied the art of baking!
 
DragonParadox said:
A small reminder that not all greater Akuma have to be min-maxed just as not all Exalted have to be. Just like you Molly knows what the theoretical maximum of a Greater Akuma is (they could murder capital D Dragons) but that does not mean any Greater Akuma you meet will be among the strongest of their kind.
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True, but there is still a risk of coming up against something well above our paygrade. It wouldn't need to be completely min-maxed to ruin our day, either.
 
Yog said:
The issue here is that if this thing is so tough, other akuma rebelling won't matter to it.

A winning strategy could be to let our father deal with it (one on one duels are a thing Knights were built for) while we deal with the rest
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The thing is, quite a few of the nastiest Wan Kuei combat powers are basically buffs thar take time to activate. A greater akuma is probably in much more danger from several subordinates throwing thermobaric grenades at it when it's in the middle of a ritual than it would be from our entire part charging in and attacking it through its defences.

And Michael isn't on a mission from God here. I wouldn't want to put him against something that has a fair chance of being able to shout at him and make him explode into fine red mist.

Edit: consider that greater akuma can still learn and gain experience. They're also incredibly hard to permanently kill. That means they can have literally centuries or millennia of high intensity experience fighting the enemies of their masters.

DragonParadox said:
A small reminder that not all greater Akuma have to be min-maxed just as not all Exalted have to be. Just like you Molly knows what the theoretical maximum of a Greater Akuma is (they could murder capital D Dragons) but that does not mean any Greater Akuma you meet will be among the strongest of their kind.
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Thing is, I'm not talking about ultra-optimised greater akuma here. Basic greater akuma are enormously dangerous, because the yama kings only accept the best Wan Kuei as greater akuma, and they get a lot extra powers from the sheer amount of Investments they have, with the Treatments on top. Given the way Disciplline levels aren't linear improvements, you'd always give them ten dot powers. That's not min-maxing, just sensible. And given what the Shikome are, you'd basically always give them, say, Yin Prana, which would be very potent in a steelyard.

Also, the Yama Kings literally do min-max their Greater Akuma. They melt them down and reshape them to best fit their new roles.

If you wanted to design a Greater Akuma to kill Molly you could make it much worse. You'd give them custom elder disciplines rather than more generic ones.

Edit: Note, if we piss off a Yama King enough they literally could custom design a greater akuma to kill Molly.

DragonParadox said:
Funny but not quite more like 'you raise up as Akuma what you can get'. It's not like elders of the Wan Kuei give themselves utterly to the Yama Kings on the regular.
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Regular akuma yes, greater akuma no, as I understand it, the Yama Kings are very selective and only recruit the best of the best because it's so expensive. On the flip side, once you've made a greater akuma it's very hard to lose them. I'd expect that Emma-O goes decades at least between making a greater akuma, if not centuries.
 
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Alratan said:
The thing is, quite a few of the nastiest Wan Kuei combat powers are basically buffs thar take time to activate. A greater akuma is probably in much more danger from several subordinates throwing thermobaric grenades at it when it's in the middle of a ritual than it would be from our entire part charging in and attacking it through its defences.

And Michael isn't on a mission from God here. I wouldn't want to put him against something that has a fair chance of being able to shout at him and make him explode into fine red mist.

Edit: consider that greater akuma can still learn and gain experience. They're also incredibly hard to permanently kill. That means they can have literally centuries or millennia of high intensity experience fighting the enemies of their masters.



Thing is, I'm not talking about ultra-optimised greater akuma here. Basic greater akuma are enormously dangerous, because the yama kings only accept the best Wan Kuei as greater akuma, and they get a lot extra powers from the sheer amount of Investments they have, with the Treatments on top. Given the way Disciplline levels aren't linear improvements, you'd always give them ten dot powers. That's not min-maxing, just sensible. And given what the Shikome are, you'd basically always give them, say, Yin Prana, which would be very potent in a steelyard.

Also, the Yama Kings literally do min-max their Greater Akuma. They melt them down and reshape them to best fit their new roles.

If you wanted to design a Greater Akuma to kill Molly you could make it much worse. You'd give them custom elder disciplines rather than more generic ones.

Edit: Note, if we piss off a Yama King enough they literally could custom design a greater akuma to kill Molly.
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There is a reason the thing is in a steel-yard yes and it does have to do with Yin Prana. As for melting them down and min-maxing, that is something the Yama Kings can do, it is not always something they actually do because it takes time and effort, their time and effort specifically, literally decades of sitting on their thrones and going through the steps of spiritual enlightenment and decay alongside/as part of their puppet. There is no such thing as a free lunch, even for the likes of Emma-O.
 
DragonParadox said:
There is a reason the thing is in a steel-yard yes and it does have to do with Yin Prana. As for melting them down and min-maxing, that is something the Yama Kings can do, it is not always something they actually do because it takes time and effort, their time and effort specifically, literally decades of sitting on their thrones and going through the steps of spiritual enlightenment and decay alongside/as part of their puppet. There is no such thing as a free lunch, even for the likes of Emma-O.
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As I read it, yes, that's true, and it's also why greater akuma are so rare and so powerful, because it's a real investment of resources and effort, because that's what you need to do in order to make one. That's what the Treatments are, and in my example the Greater Akuma only gets two because I'm assuming we start with a Dharma 7 mandarin, and then wastes a point because it's not very optimised.

There's a categorical gap between a greater akuma that's signed the Pact of Ebony and Jade and a lesser akuma that's become devil eaten and performed the Rite of Renunciation. The Greater Akuma are basically the peers of the orthodox Wan Kuei's Arhats, and are almost as powerful. They're the generals and senior ministers of the Hells, after all.

See my example of having to kidnap mortal bodhisattva on the edge of becoming Buddhas (although once you have one it seems you can keep using then) before you can start applying the Saint of the Godbody Treatment, and the fact that doing so sometimes makes the greater akuma die in the process. Many Yama Kings presumably can't apply that treatment because they've never caught a bodhisattva.
 
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Alratan said:
See my example of having to kidnap mortal bodhisattva on the edge of becoming Buddhas (although once you have one it seems you can keep using then) before you can start applying the Saint of the Godbody Treatment, and the fact that doing so sometimes makes the greater akuma die in the process.

Many Yama Kings presumably can't apply that treatment because they've never caught a bodhisattva.
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But you don't have to have that specific treatment to become a Greater Akuma.

You don't need any specific treament, just to sign the Pact of Ebony and Scarlet Jade.
 
Alratan said:
As I read it, yes, that's true, and it's also why greater akuma are so rare and so powerful, because it's a real investment of resources and effort, because that's what you need to do in order to make one. That's what the Treatments are, and in my example the Greater Akuma only gets two because I'm assuming we start with a Dharma 7 mandarin, and then wastes a point because it's not very optimised.

There's a categorical gap between a greater akuma that's signed the Pact of Ebony and Jade and a lesser akuma that's become devil eaten and performed the Rite of Renunciation. The Greater Akuma are basically the peers of the orthodox Wan Kuei's Arhats, and are almost as powerful. They're the generals and senior ministers of the Hells, after all.

See my example of having to kidnap mortal bodhisattva on the edge of becoming Buddhas (although once you have one it seems you can keep using then) before you can start applying the Saint of the Godbody Treatment, and the fact that doing so sometimes makes the greater akuma die in the process. Many Yama Kings presumably can't apply that treatment because they've never caught a bodhisattva.
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Why do you keep arguing with the QM about how the enemy should be more powerful?
 
Alratan said:
As I read it, yes, that's true, and it's also why greater akuma are so rare and so powerful, because it's a real investment of resources and effort, because that's what you need to do in order to make one. There's a categorical gap between a greater akuma that's signed the Pact of Ebony and Jade and a lesser akuma that's become devil eaten and performed the Rite of Renunciation. The Greater Akuma are basically the peers of the orthodox Wan Kuei's Arhats, and are almost as powerful. They're the generals and senior ministers of the Hells, after all.

See my example of having to kidnap mortal bodhisattva on the edge of becoming Buddhas (although once you have one it seems you can keep using then) before you can start applying the Saint of the Godbody Treatment, and the fact that doing so sometimes makes the greater akuma die in the process. Many Yama Kings presumably can't apply that treatment because they've never caught a bodhisattva.
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That is true... and sometimes a Wan Kuei elder falls off the wagon hard in a way that resonates with you and you chip away at them again and again, the process of their Fall making them a fitting if not a perfect vessel so that when the last domino falls you can send them on their way. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
 
Artemis1992 said:
But you don't have to have that specific treatment to become a Greater Akuma.

You don't need any specific treament, just to sign the Pact of Ebony and Scarlet Jade.
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That's a massive waste of a Greater Akuma. They get a point value of Treatments up to their Endurance, the lower of Dharma and Willpower - which basically means Dharma. They don't have to get any particular Treatment, but a Greater Shikome is likely to get Graceful Reed Angel Treatment, and Beatifically Enlightened Tutor Treatment is likely to be given as a secondary treatment, as it can be applied at the same time as another one, saving the Yama King time. Also, because if you're sending a greater akuma to catch an Exaltation, you probably want them to be the best hey can at Rituals.

fictionfan said:
Why do you keep arguing with the QM about how the enemy should be more powerful?
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Because I don't want it to be more powerful, but for its powers and limitations to make sense.

Also because I want to pirate the techniques for making greater akuma down the line.

DragonParadox said:
That is true... and sometimes a Wan Kuei elder falls off the wagon hard in a way that resonates with you and you chip away at them again and again, the process of their Fall making them a fitting if not a perfect vessel so that when the last domino falls you can send them on their way. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
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Remember that you don't have to apply the conversion process and treatments right away. You can give the prospective Wan Kuei various forms of training/challenges or the lesser investments first.

I think it mentions that the Yama Kings don't just target elders but also prodigies for conversion, and that the process of grooming a potential greater akuma can take a very long time.

fictionfan said:
Well if we perma kill one greater Akuma Yama Kings are very unlikely to want to send more.
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Remember that if they work out what's going on in advance they can probably suicide. We have to personally murder them to apply Murder is Meat, as it's the act of murder that is critical.
 
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So why can some beings have beyond 5 dots and we can't? Like I'm not even talking gods and super demons we saw a white court vampire with beyond 5 dot stuff.
 
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