Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

This keeps triggering me, and is a hill I'll die on. The description of overpopulated feature goes like this:

It's a negative effect that's worth 1 point. What else is worth 1 point? Eternal Suffering is also one point; the one that makes everyone essentially immortal inside our hell. A perfect defense around the whole of our realm with only one controllable chokepoint as the flaw of defense is also worth one point. Meaning that it's actually signficiant. It's not flavoring at all. And what does the description say? It says that "there are too many inhabitants for the ecosystem to support". The ecosystem is not just the wildlife. In an urban system, the city itself is an ecosystem. And "too many to support" by definition means that the ecosystem cannot support so many people indefinitely. Meaning that the system is unstable and is going to collapse. No ifs and no buts. It's going to break down. I am not building something that will break down as part of the design of our soul. This is abhorrent to me.

And let's look at the second part: space is at a premiym, privacy is nonexistent, violaence is probably common. Does it sound like a society that we'd want to interact with? Not to me.

No, Overpopulated is not something to take, even if it means letting go of Lord of the Land (I still hope that we'll be allowed homebrew later to add more features; at least here it makes sense).
Yes, but the issue could be quick solved by moving most of the people out of our hell to somewhere with more room. Of course if we took vaste size then the earth wouldn't be big enough.
 
And the Gnosis caern directly gives people magic points, which would be amazing for minor talents assuming it counts as mana.
If Gnosis=Essence for the purpose of bonuses, it would be great for Molly and Lydia, too. In ExWoD, +3-4 Essence points is pretty decent.
InauspIcIous benedIctIon of endeavor. An Infernal charm grants auto successes 2-4 to everything an organization does. And you can be a organization of you so can apply to every roll.
Exalted charms typically need adjustment before being ported to ExWoD, and IBoE is no different. +4 sux to everything to everyone in a [Magnitude goes here] sized social unit is some absolutely busted fuckery by ExWoD standards.

That's better than Terrestrial excellency ever gets in ExWoD.
 
If Gnosis=Essence for the purpose of bonuses, it would be great for Molly and Lydia, too. In ExWoD, +3-4 Essence points is pretty decent.

Given where Caern powers come from, I'd assume they work like a Totem Spirit's blssings:

• When a totem would grant or reduce Renown, assume that Exalts following the totem are more generally well-regarded or mistrusted by spirits who embody that type of renown, and raise or lower the difficulty of social interactions with them by +1 or -1.
• When a spirit grants extra Rage or Gnosis, replace it with extra Essence.
• When a spirit grants some Ability the Exalt doesn't normally use, treat it as a Secondary Ability. It may not be terribly useful, but then, the Exalt was the one who chose to accept the patronage of a spirit whose interests didn't align perfectly with her own, after all.
• If a spirit grants the Exalt a Gift, she gains the ability to use that Gift for so long as her pact with that specific spirit endures. Replace any Rage or Gnosis costs with an equal Essence cost.​
 
It would almost certainly be vastly more pwoerful than Ivy. At the very least it would probably be able to constantly tap into all leylines and dragon nests in its borders, have local intellectus covering its area, will be able to teleport within the city, etc. Might have perfect defences along the lines of Ablation of Brass and Fire.

Demonreach is a specialized powerful guardian god of a local area. I would expect that god of Chicago as raised by us would be significantly more powerful than Demonreach.
An important thing to note in this sort of discussion is what exactly we mean by power.

A lot of this is very task and context specific. Demonreach for example could imprison Mab, but even if it could take its power elsewhere it couldn't do her job. It's just really good at a specific slice of tasks.

The god of Chicago would probably have significant power within the context of its themes, but I wouldn't expect it to be able to do what demonreach does.

Personally my assumption is that it would be best at defending, preserving, and enhancing the functions of a mortal city. That's fundamentally what we're seeing in the base energy field we'd be using to make it.

Really my bet is that the most important impact would just be things working right all the time, and "lucky" coincidences keeping things on track.

Infrastructure not breaking, traffic somehow getting routed in the most efficient patterns, financial markets crashing less. Background stuff that wouldn't be obvious, but would make the titanic machinery of a major modern city significantly stronger.

If Chicago ends up the only city with its own personal wakeful god I wouldn't be surprised if over the decades it just comically outcompetes other cities until it has an outsized global presence relative to any of its actual properties.
I've tried finding it, and there's nothing that says it was the White God directly acting to change the metaphysics rather than the simple rise of worship of the white god displacing worship of those other pantheons.
The white god and his archangels are orders of magnitude stronger than anything else in the setting. Human worship is great an all, but Uriel has been a galaxy buster since before humans crawled out of the mud.

I'm not trying to make this some veiled jab at anyone's faith in real life here, just point out that it's very very obvious what Butcher is doing in his setting.

I'd need to dig it up, but I think some of the specifics here are hinted at when Harry talks to Hades.
 
Overpopulated is great because it ensures we'll get a vast population. And just because most of the world is overcrowded doesn't mean the elites we'd usually interact with would be...

Wow, so you are ok with having a system where only the rich have space and all the rest are toiling in horrible conditions it seems.

Seriously *the elites we'd usually interact with*, Molly is not the kind of person who will only meet the elites and ignores the masses, case in point, just look at the last update.

We just need to send out our legions of war-devils to conquer and settle some of the Nevernever...
Yes, but the issue could be quick solved by moving most of the people out of our hell to somewhere with more room. Of course if we took vaste size then the earth wouldn't be big enough.

You are both forgetting one very important thing here: as written, there is absolutely no way to get several demons out of our hell, nevermind armies, what you're proposing is not possible.
 
The white god and his archangels are orders of magnitude stronger than anything else in the setting. Human worship is great an all, but Uriel has been a galaxy buster since before humans crawled out of the mud.

I'm not trying to make this some veiled jab at anyone's faith in real life here, just point out that it's very very obvious what Butcher is doing in his setting.

I'd need to dig it up, but I think some of the specifics here are hinted at when Harry talks to Hades.

It doesn't say why it happened in that conversation. Hades doesn't get new souls in his realm, but it's left completely unclear whether that's because the rise of Christianity means the Greek pantheon has no worshippers and that's why, or whether it's some other reason.

You are both forgetting one very important thing here: as written, there is absolutely no way to get several demons out of our hell, nevermind armies, what you're proposing is not possible.

As written, our Hell follows the rules for Hells in The Thousand Hells book, and so is connected to the rest of the spirit world by paths you can walk on.

We need a special feature to restrict those paths:

Bottleneck (Cost: 1 point): Your Hell doesn't have natural boundaries which can be used to leave the Realm. Perhaps it's a sphere, or perhaps it is an island floating in a sea of infinite flames. The Realm has only one exit, in the form of a fairly obvious and prominent portal of some sort​

As written, unless DP changes it, the default is that the Hell has natural boundaries which if crossed allow leaving the Hell.
 
You are both forgetting one very important thing here: as written, there is absolutely no way to get several demons out of our hell, nevermind armies, what you're proposing is not possible.
We discussed this with DP before; we don't have a definitive mechanic, but he promised that we'll have some way to get at least some minor amount of people out of it before needing additional investment.

So like, it isn't entirely locked. No armies, tho, sure.
 
Wow, so you are ok with having a system where only the rich have space and all the rest are toiling in horrible conditions it seems.

Seriously *the elites we'd usually interact with*, Molly is not the kind of person who will only meet the elites and ignores the masses, case in point, just look at the last update.
That it's pretty screwed up, but I think we should get a firm understanding of what overpopulated actually means in the context before making decisions.

I see a lot of fear mongering about it being a lethal calamity or horrible social ill dragging everyone down, but it doesn't actually say that and it'd be significantly worse than every other flaw on the sheet if it works that way.

If overpopulation is closer to being uncomfortably cramped, but equitably manageable through the advanced society and technology perks then the extra point for it could be a net benefit for everyone involved.

It could still be really awful, in which case I wouldn't want to vote for it, but if it's to scale with issues like "the animals in the wilderness around the city are surprisingly lethal" then it might be worthwhile.
 
None of that shit you're talking about is a given.
Intellectus is not something most gods get in this setting; Perfect defenses are as rare.
You cant just write up a wishlist and assume that it will receive all that by fiat.
Intellectus might or might not happen, but it would almost certainly be immortal. Bane is, and it's a least god, far lower on the totem pole than a potential god of Chicago.
Overpopulated is great because it ensures we'll get a vast population. And just because most of the world is overcrowded doesn't mean the elites we'd usually interact with would be...
I am not interested in the type of character that would do this. Molly is right now in the sewers (or near enough) ministering to the weak and impoverished. Making a world like the described one would be very OOC for her subconsciousness.
Yes, but the issue could be quick solved by moving most of the people out of our hell to somewhere with more room. Of course if we took vaste size then the earth wouldn't be big enough.
Not something easily done at all, requires way too many assumptions to be proven true to work, and still basically riles on "yeah, it's going to break, we need to fix it before it does" at the design stage, which I am unwilling to do. Designing Locust Crusade is not a good idea.

Overall, and for me personally, I'll just sacrifice the Lord of the Land (which is of situational, if great use).
The white god and his archangels are orders of magnitude stronger than anything else in the setting. Human worship is great an all, but Uriel has been a galaxy buster since before humans crawled out of the mud.
To be fair, if we take indian mythology at face value, this isn't actually that outstanding, if I understand correctly.
 
I am not interested in the type of character that would do this. Molly is right now in the sewers (or near enough) ministering to the weak and impoverished. Making a world like the described one would be very OOC for her subconsciousness.

Note really. It's making problems for her to solve...
 
If we go for human residences and overcrowded we might be able to quickly solve the overcrowded issue by mass moving them out. Maybe take over South America.
My Hell proposal takes Overcrowded as a core element.
Its an excellent plot hook on which to hang a couple things IMO.
I just have to finish writing it.

I've tried finding it, and there's nothing that says it was the White God directly acting to change the metaphysics rather than the simple rise of worship of the white god displacing worship of those other pantheons.
Cant recall the exact quote at the moment, and a brief look at the WoJ collection isnt turning it up.
But I think it was stated.

Remember that a city god would be something very new to any of the current actors in the setting, and when we've seen such traps, they've been built based on accumulations of centuries of knowledge.

For any supernatural predator, they'd have to worry that the City God would eat them. Which given the way cities historically operated, as population sinks sucking in people and wealth from outside and consuming and assimilating it to be part of themselves, is a quite reasonable fear.
I doubt that very much. Just something old come again.
The mythological basis of a lot of the Dresdenverse is replete with place-gods; gods of rivers, gods of towns, household gods. Athena and Poseidon competing over becoming the patron god of Athens is a well known part of Greek mythology.

Intellectus might or might not happen, but it would almost certainly be immortal. Bane is, and it's a least god, far lower on the totem pole than a potential god of Chicago.
Not dying of natural causes is easy.
Actual, no-shit cannot be permakilled is a very different matter. Watchful Bane does not have that, and I doubt a city god of Chicago would either.
 
White God could be using the same mechanisms that allow Odin to be Santa Claus and a couple of other people besides, I suppose.

It is prolly not a thing in the books, but if you really need to interact with Brahma or whoever without that whole "btw, White God is like, bazillion times stronger than you" well. It is an ugly fix, but there you go.
 
If overpopulation is closer to being uncomfortably cramped, but equitably manageable through the advanced society and technology perks then the extra point for it could be a net benefit for everyone involved.
The issue is that it expliciely says that it's not manageable. It says "the ecosystem can't support this". And the difference of opinion and interpretation comes here. I take "ecosystem" to mean "a the current technological and sociological level of development of our hell, the population cannot be sustained". Otherwise it doesn't make sense at all. Since we developed farming, our population wasn't sustainable on "no technology" level. The description only makes sense to me if ecosystem includes technological food production, pollution cleaning, etc.
Actual, no-shit cannot be permakilled is a very different matter. Watchful Bane does not have that, and I doubt a city god of Chicago would either.
It does:
Immortal: You are a god, bound to your domain, while it endures so shall you. Being slain simply sends you into deathhly slumber while you recover your strength. If you are slain by lethal damage you wake with the next sunset, whereas agravated damage requires nine days.
^^^
This.
Plot hooks are good.
Not like this. Not all plot hooks are good, and this is one of the bad ones. You keep telling me "the juice isn't worth the squeeze". I am telling you here - it's not worth it at all.
 
I doubt that very much. Just something old come again.
The mythological basis of a lot of the Dresdenverse is replete with place-gods; gods of rivers, gods of towns, household gods. Athena and Poseidon competing over becoming the patron god of Athens is a well known part of Greek mythology.

City Gods as a concept yes. Exalted style gods forged with Infernal power, no.

For one thing, those gods need mantles to interact with the material world. Based on the example of the previous god we made, our's don't.

That's a categorical and fundamental change.
 
As written, our Hell follows the rules for Hells in The Thousand Hells book, and so is connected to the rest of the spirit world by paths you can walk on.

We need a special feature to restrict those paths:

Bottleneck (Cost: 1 point): Your Hell doesn't have natural boundaries which can be used to leave the Realm. Perhaps it's a sphere, or perhaps it is an island floating in a sea of infinite flames. The Realm has only one exit, in the form of a fairly obvious and prominent portal of some sort​

As written, unless DP changes it, the default is that the Hell has natural boundaries which if crossed allow leaving the Hell.

Clarification: While our hell must have at least one escape route that could plausibly connect to the nevernever which might make taking bottleneck justifiable, it is inside our soul. I just want to make sure people know we aren't necessarily going to be bordering a hostile Yama King.

Souces: Page 200 which describes our hell's location as inside our exaltation. Page 232 describes it as within our essence.

Tangentially, it is at least somewhat reflective of our personality according to page 200 also, specifically in the geography/physics department.
 
To be fair, if we take indian mythology at face value, this isn't actually that outstanding, if I understand correctly.
The point I'm making is that Butcher himself is strongly Christian and the only person he gives a fair shake that way is Catholic god, with various fig leaves and other stuff happening around it.

I'm not going to complain if we do away with that here, but it's sort of ridiculous to pretend that's congruent with Dresden Files canon when Butcher is less subtle than C.S Lewis with how he set things up.
 
The issue is that it expliciely says that it's not manageable. It says "the ecosystem can't support this". And the difference of opinion and interpretation comes here. I take "ecosystem" to mean "a the current technological and sociological level of development of our hell, the population cannot be sustained". Otherwise it doesn't make sense at all. Since we developed farming, our population wasn't sustainable on "no technology" level. The description only makes sense to me if ecosystem includes technological food production, pollution cleaning, etc.

The ecosystem of the Earth can't support our current lifestyle. That doesn't mean we're doomed or that the population can't be sustained. It just means we need to change faster than ecological degradation occurs. It means the current system can't stay static and has to evolve.

That's a good thing, it keeps the place dynamic.

Clarification: While our hell must have at least one escape route that could plausibly connect to the nevernever which might make taking bottleneck justifiable, it is inside our soul. I just want to make sure people know we aren't necessarily going to be bordering a hostile Yama King.

Souces: Page 200 which describes our hell's location as inside our exaltation. Page 232 describes it as within our essence.

Tangentially, it is at least somewhat reflective of our personality according to page 200 also, specifically in the geography/physics department.

By default, our Hell has open borders all around it that creatures in our hell can walk across. That's the default. To only have one entrance requires expending points to buy a feature.

The default is to follow the rules of the Thousand Hells book, which says they border each other. Just because it's inside our soul doens't mean it isn't also adjacent to other Hells.
 
Clarification: While our hell must have at least one escape route that could plausibly connect to the nevernever which might make taking bottleneck justifiable, it is inside our soul. I just want to make sure people know we aren't necessarily going to be bordering a hostile Yama King.

Souces: Page 200 which describes our hell's location as inside our exaltation. Page 232 describes it as within our essence.

Tangentially, it is at least somewhat reflective of our personality according to page 200 also, specifically in the geography/physics department.
Citations are:
Page 200:
The Infernal shapes her heart, soul, and Essence
into the shape of a realm of her devising, featuring what-
ever oddities of geography or natural law suit her nature.
System: The Infernal crafts a new Hell-realm with-
in her own Exaltation.
page 232:
Infernals who purchase The King and the King-
dom develop a new Hell-Realm within their own Es-
sence.

By default, our Hell has open borders all around it that creatures in our hell can walk across. That's the default. To only have one entrance requires expending points to buy a feature.

The default is to follow the rules of the Thousand Hells book, which says they border each other. Just because it's inside our soul doens't mean it isn't also adjacent to other Hells.
The open borders are "you can escape if you walk out" rule. If Bottleneck is taken, then you can only escape through the Bottleneck. Otherwise, just walking out is fine. It's quite possible that anyone escaping will simply manifest near Molly. Nothing about invading from outside is described at all and will need to be invented (soulgazes are going to be strange).
The ecosystem of the Earth can't support our current lifestyle. That doesn't mean we're doomed or that the population can't be sustained. It just means we need to change faster than ecological degradation occurs. It means the current system can't stay static and has to evolve.

That's a good thing, it keeps the place dynamic.
And we are quite possibly currently heading to a global collapse, yes, with uncertain chances of survival. I don't want that to be Molly's "heart soul and essence" expressed as a world. And the other parts in the description are not something I am willing to take as well. I want a functional and interesting society to interact with.
 
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While we're on the subject, I want to say that one of the things I really like about @Yog 's Fivefold Courts is that it's basically, when you strip it down, "Utopia (or a very good attempt at it) built on top of a hostile wasteland, in blatant defiance of anything that would look at the wasteland and say it would be hard to survive there, much less thrive." That feels very on-brand for the place-incarnation of the soul of an Infernal trying to genuinely make the world a better place and fix things everyone else says can't be fixed, which is what Molly has generally been since Exalting. I hope that whatever ends up winning when we buy our Kingdom charm is at least that fitting.
 
The issue is that it expliciely says that it's not manageable. It says "the ecosystem can't support this".
The ecosystem of a Hell presumably bears little resemblance to that of Earth.
Especially since its not just mundane biology.
But magic as well.

And as has been pointed out, Earth itself is supposed to require change for Humanity to survive.
This does not mean that everything is horrific and doomed to die. It means things have to change.
Which is very much in theme with Molly's coming.
If Watchful Bane's domain is destroyed, it dies. If it gets killed by a spiritkiller, it will die.
A potential Chicago god would bear much the same limits at a minimum.

Not like this. Not all plot hooks are good, and this is one of the bad ones. You keep telling me "the juice isn't worth the squeeze". I am telling you here - it's not worth it at all.
I strongly disagree.
Incentivizing Molly to go out and fix things for her new kingdom is good plot, and it provides plot points on which to hang a bunch of other things, like the Hell's Loyalty status and the Lord of the Land point.

City Gods as a concept yes. Exalted style gods forged with Infernal power, no.
For one thing, those gods need mantles to interact with the material world. Based on the example of the previous god we made, our's don't.
That's a categorical and fundamental change.
One, what made them doesnt matter.
A god under this cosmology is still a god, whether made by Infernal crafting or a necromantic Ascension ritual.
Iku Turso's example suggests we wont be seen as something unheard of. Rare sure, but not unheard of.

Two, gods requiring mantles to interact with the mortal world in a divine manner is new.
As far as we recall, the gods withdrawing, or being made to withdraw was just about a thousand years ago, circa Hastings.
There's wizards that were alive back then, let alone other sorts of supernaturals.

Many of those gods are walking the earth now in their personal capacity; we've seen a maenad of Dionysus in the series, and Thor is supposed to be off in professional wrestling.
 
... Guys, you do know that we are, like, contractually obligated to raise the Spirit of Chicago now, right? I mean, there's just no other choice here. None at all. We have to do it. Let's see... Molly, plus Lydia, plus members of the Order (as many as we can get), in the Dragon Nest, with full essence expenditure at Halloween. Sounds perfect. Would it be 1 AP or more to organize the raising? @DragonParadox ?

Because yeah, ending techbane in the city-wide area and raising a city spirit that should be benevolent to mortals (since most of the city dwellers are mortals)... Even if Harry is instinctively against this idea, I think it's a worthy one. We might want to make lots of preparations, though.

Also, I think Porter meant Warden as in the title of the holder of Demonreach.

[X] Yes
-[X] Empathy excellency
-[X] So, time, plus on call, plus expertise? Ballpark a rough sum. Something like 1k? Or services rendered. Want your consolation on his car, or perhaps a portable phone? You could get a Noika cellphone and make it so durable he could use it as a bludgeon.
-[X] If he doesn't take money, argue for paying him with more knowledge. Papers on how to end techbane in a local area, and how to make soulgazing safer should be more than valuable enough
Keep in mind that an incarnate spirit of Chicago would be a reflection of all the good and bad of Chicago and humans. So in a lot of ways it could look like a classy female version of Gentleman Johnny Marcone. Oh lord the reactions of harry to that especially if the incarnate decides it likes marcone. And talks like a noir detective movie character.
 
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