As a little example of this particular phenomenon: the fic *The magus in training* on SB, pretty good writing, interesting and novel premise, almost no comments, guess who the protagonist isn't?
Gestalt, A Worm x PMMM Faux-quest
- Thread starter Dalek Ix
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy Superhero
As a little example of this particular phenomenon: the fic *The magus in training* on SB, pretty good writing, interesting and novel premise, almost no comments, guess who the protagonist isn't?
I like Gestalt. I haven't been commenting on it because I don't comment on most things that I read; ditto with reactions, actually. I'm in the habit of defaulting to "total secrecy" when online. So, to a significant extent, the fact that I personally haven't been engaging with Gestalt is a fact about me, not about Gestalt.
That said, there are some ways in which Gestalt is ... difficult to engage with, and I think the biggest one is how sporadic the updates are. I re-read the fic just now in preparation for writing this comment, and as a whole, the fic is actually great. Everything is well-written, the characters are interestingly developed and have compelling plotlines, there are hooks for future events here and there ... it's really fun to read. About the only complaint I have is that Rachel's blue text early on is one step away from being invisitext.
The problem is that when updates are as spread out as they are, we (the readers) tend to forget all but the broad outlines of things. For example, when I read the most recent Gestalt chapter, I remembered that Rachel, Sarah and Taylor had fought a television-related witch recently, and I remembered approximately who Sarah was, but I'd completely forgotten about the Clinic, about Mami showing up and ominously saying she'd like to talk to Rachel, about Kyubey contacting Dinah ... you get the idea.
To some extent, this isn't something that you can do anything about - I know from my own experience that you can't just say "write faster" and expect that to work. What I do to compensate, though, and what might (conceivably) be useful for you, is as follows; instead of posting chapters as you finish them, be in hiatus and build up a reserve of chapters. Then, post those chapters at regular intervals (in my case, weekly) until you run out - or, ideally, until you reach a plot-appropriate stopping point. That way, people still have to remind themselves of the plot, but they only have to do it once each cycle instead of pretty much every update. Plus, that lets you have a regular schedule, which means people can think "Ah, today is Gestalt update day!" and be looking forward to it instead of getting a notification out of the blue.
Anyway, I have no idea if that's actually helpful, but I thought I'd at least suggest the idea.
Second-last thing; what I find interesting about the faux-quest structure is the way the faux-votes give us insight into Rachel's character, showing us what options she considers, what she wants; it really helps flesh her out as a character, for me, but I don't feel any particular urge to vote. I don't think the structure is alienating, just that people not voting is not an indication that it's not enjoyable to see.
Last thing; I enjoy reading Gestalt. Even as spread-out as it is right now, it's still fun to read. I think the most important question to ask, though, and one which wasn't quite addressed in your post, is; do you enjoy writing Gestalt?
If you do, then rest assured that there are a lot of people out here who enjoy reading it and want it to continue. If you don't, though, then don't feel that you have to continue. We are not paying you for this; you are providing excellent writing to us for free, and you are under no obligation to carry on doing it if it's no longer fun for you.
I hope at least some of this is useful/supportive/not-massively-presumptuous; I just ... thought it ought to be said, I suppose. Thank you for writing Gestalt; whether you choose to continue it or not, it has been great, and I have confidence that if you do continue it it will continue to be.
MWKillKenny84
Lurking from the Trauma Switch.
- Location
- Vado Ligure
Everyone else already said the most salient points, I can only add my take: the problem is that the Worm fandom (as others have said) is mildly toxic for anything that is not non-stop escalation and firmly Taylor-centred narrative, so slice-of-life that take the FRAKKING TIME to develop things instead of fast-paced neck-breaker timing tend to get... let's say overlooked unless the writer manages to firmly take front and centre of the readership's attention span.
Second, on the PMMM side... Rebellion, Wraith Arc and Magia Record messed with the fans. The first by shitting on the ending of the main serie, the second by being a "You expected worldbuilding, but instead it was I, the Rebellion Prequel no one asked for, all along!" declaration, and the third by railroading the Main Series Status Quo (at least in game terms).
Those hits IMO caused a general apathy among the fans. The news of a new movie do not help, because it will either a mild success or it will tank the rest of the fandom at this point in time.
On the other hand, you put the new chapter as I was reading myself for bed (not your fault), and I tend to do quick replies at that hour because I lack the energy to do more.
And I will not lie by saying that your work was among the reading material that rekindled my interest into the PMMM fandom (see my signature), even if I cannot honestly said that it had helped inspire my newest work.
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The fact that we have had almost no news about said movie for years really doesn't help, it feels like vaporware at this point (actually, do you have any news about it?), I personally had absolutely no problem with rebellion, howewer, and am against Magireco mostly because it's a fucking gatcha waifu mobile game, which I think should all burn in hell, I don't even know its story, except that's it's an AU of canon that Madokami is not erasing because *Doppels could be interesting*.
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Also, you forgot a not here:
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CharlieKing
Pure of Heart, Dumb of Ass
- Pronouns
- They/Them
uh, am i missing something here? romance?
i've been getting different vibes, like taylor using rachel to fill the void that emma left and a lifeline to the possibility of what she sees as agency and control over her life through powers, and rachel using taylor as an emotional stand-in for the boy she bullied into suicide so she can vicariously redeem herself.
none of these points exclude romance but i cant see where it points to romance here. more of a toxic codependance
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I usually just lurk and read without interacting much because, normally, I can't really add to the discussion with anything besides "Hey I liked your last chapter, please keep going" which, well, I think would get old after a while.
But to say what I like about this fic, well, I like the slow pace of it, I like reading the inner monologues of every main character, I enjoy the way you describe things in a way that feels in-character for the POV we're currently reading.
So yeah, I liked your last chapter and would continue reading for as long as you feel like writing.
But to say what I like about this fic, well, I like the slow pace of it, I like reading the inner monologues of every main character, I enjoy the way you describe things in a way that feels in-character for the POV we're currently reading.
So yeah, I liked your last chapter and would continue reading for as long as you feel like writing.
The fandom is pretty much unable to admit the very possibility of Taylor not being a closeted lesbian, or at least bisexual.
Also, this is partially what I'm talking about when I say I hate *pairing* or more commonly *shipping* (they aren't that different), any positive interaction is automatically romance, because the idea that girls can be friends without being girlfriends is anathema to some, no matter what the actual characterization or anything else is saying, they looked at each other for more than 1 second, they are obviously in love! *Insert giant flaming rant here*
Not sure that's quite a fair characterization? Quotes like this one:
would seem to suggest that there's at least some interest from Taylor's end. It's not much evidence, and the closest thing I can think of for Rachel's end is the winning "ambush hug" vote and the possible "Carry her." vote, which could well just be Rachel's lack of subtlety playing up. Still, I don't think it's fair to say that there's nothing indicating that Taylor might have some degree of romantic interest in Rachel, or that the only way to come to that conclusion is reading too much into platonically-motivated actions.
That might not be strictly nothing but that definitely isn't The gay Taylor-OC Romance Arc, and at this point, I am so tired of the fans clamoring for "ships! ships! ships! ships! ships! ships!" that I'm not really going to view any of their remark with an objective eye.
It's very much there, and I'm just as tired of it as you are. The moment I read about Taylor blushing was the moment I checked out of caring about this Taylor. This definitely seems like a Taylor-In-Name-Only, and the signs of the Taylor-OC romance arc are written on the walls.
Taylor was never exactly prone to big displays of emotion, and fanfics having them serve as the main character's blushing waifu while harping on about how great she is, is one of my least favorite hallmarks of the Worm fandom.
I... What?
I feel as if we didn't read the same story and have no idea on how to answer to you, so I guess I won't besides this.
Seriously, what?
I enjoy this story, I watch it, but I only check back this website every couple of weeks to look for updates. I don't engage in conversation about stories for the most part because I'm socially awkward and don't like to engage with other readers - it always ends in fights that put authors off.
But don't think that means there's nobody appreciating it. I understand your pain, comments are rare when I post as well, but follows and active reader counts are far more noteworthy in terms of whether people are reading.
What? She was blushing because she was embarrassed about making a tit out of herself, not because she was suddenly all out of context gaga.
And don't give me that crap about her being emotionally unreactive. Taylor had loads of visual and somatic tells, she just expressed them through bugs instrad of on her face. She doesn't have that option here. This is the same girl who cried openly in chapter 1 of canon.
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MWKillKenny84
Lurking from the Trauma Switch.
- Location
- Vado Ligure
But craploads of 'instant feels' D-list shipping fics gives the ones that do not give a crap to shipping/wants for ships to develop at more realistic paces knee-jerk reactions to the mere mention of blushing on anyone's part.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't usually comment much on fics I follow but at this point I feel obligated to chime in and say I've really enjoyed this one. I like Rachel a lot as a main POV, I'd even say I like her more than canon Taylor.
I'd love for this story to continue, but if it's just not fun for the author anymore that's fine too, I understand.
I'd love for this story to continue, but if it's just not fun for the author anymore that's fine too, I understand.
...Good to now I'm not the only one, I seriously was wondering.... Seriously, blushing can happen for other reasons than *love*, funnily enough, it is what most of the cases probably are, something else, like, well, you said it, embarrassment.
I only discovered this in the last few days and just finished reading, so I have no connection to the past discussion or lack.
Zero objection to the apparent ship on my side. Main concern having binged through is whether the various hanging plots will actually manifest.
Only ambient knowledge of PMMM, but then I'm currently reading a crossover between a property I haven't watched and a property I have never wanted to so that's not really a concern to me...
Zero objection to the apparent ship on my side. Main concern having binged through is whether the various hanging plots will actually manifest.
Only ambient knowledge of PMMM, but then I'm currently reading a crossover between a property I haven't watched and a property I have never wanted to so that's not really a concern to me...
The_Turncoat
MLG200
- Location
- A Dry Desert
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Might as well chime in, I've been enjoying it. I don't really care about ships one way or another, so as long as it doesn't distract from the story. Also, it's a PMMM story. It's almost an obligation.
Q&A 5: Problems
Dalek Ix
Verified Dalek
Considering I spent a substantial amount of time establishing how Rachel is a Magical Girl and how this affects her, I'll have to disagree with you on that point. I also think that constantly reminding the reader that "Oh yeah, Rachel's a magical girl, remember?" can get repetitive.
I do agree that I haven't been establishing what the stakes are. I blame the lack of planning on my part ---I have a terrible habit of writing by the seat of my pants, when I'm the sort of person who really ought to have some outline for what ought to be happening next. That will be adressed moving forward.
And as for the pacing... Well, most of that is my writing style; while throwing the plot down a cliff is basically Wormfic Tradition at this point ---and who am I to argue with that?--- I prefer to not do it immediately.
(That being said, I'll be the first to admit that a tendency to write 10-20-30k words and not get anywhere at all is a rather large problem I've been known to have.)
Still, thanks for the criticism.
Let's see...
Regarding the lack of fights: First, would you rather I detail every single time Rachel got into a fight with ABB thugs? Because that would've gotten very boring, very quickly. Second: Even Rachel needs a reason to get into a fight with someone; they don't happen out of nowhere. Third, the lack of people punching each other in the face doesn't mean there's a lack of conflict.
Fourth: Rachel is a Magical Girl. For her, fighting means spending magic. Magic she might need later; be it when hunting a Witch, when fighting a more serious threat, or when waiting out a dry spell. PMMM-style Magical Girls simply cannot afford to get into constant fights like Capes (or, hell, like Magical Girls from other series).
So they don't. They intimidate. They posture. They try, using as little magic as possible, to show the other party ought to back the fuck off. It's only when all of that fails that they escalate ---and if the stakes are high enough, they'll escalate right up to murder. It'll be something that will be expanded upon in the next chapter.
Could I still have displayed the conflict better? Are there scenes I could've included in full rather than imply they happened? Yes, absolutely. There's days where I have to resist the urge to re-write whole chunks of the story, but if I started doing that I'd never get anything else done.
And I'm not even gonna bother with you calling the fight against Katarina "generic".
Regarding the lack of narrative depth and plot: I won't discard the possibility that that might be a problem this fic has. Although, if it is, I would've loved to have known about it about... thirty thousand words ago?
And as for the romance... Well, that's a UXO big enough that I'll have to address it separately.
Mostly in the sense that Wormfics have Taylor's new OP powerset stomping all over both, yes.
Still, even though I don't particularly like what you had to say, I'm thankful that you took the time to come out and say it.
I'll admit that I knew that there would be a few risks involved by not having Taylor be the main POV from the start, and that it might be the main sticking point for a lot of people who would've otherwise read it. I stuck to it partly due to creative reasons, and partly to skirt around a certain problem.
Creatively speaking: First, Rachel's concept as a character (Could-Have-Been-A-NeoNazi MG) meant that I had to spend a substantial amount of time with her at the start, since otherwise getting readers to find her sympathetic would've been an uphill fight the whole way. Second, since this is a cross with PMMM, I felt it prudent to start by showing, well, the PMMM side of the crossover.
And the problem I skirted around was that, at the start, I was frankly more than a little unsure on how I'd write Taylor. Again, this was due to me going into this with no plan at all (as I am wont to do) and figuring things out as they came. I knew that the way I approached her would make or break the fic, especially with how... well, mythologized she is on this site and on SB. Queen of Escalation, anyone?
Looking back, there were plenty of ways I could've avoided that. It's another reason I really, really want to re-do the start of Gestalt but, again, I think it would be a better idea to finish first, before going back and re-writing that.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "not Taylor Hebert".
And thank you for your your insight.
The long waits between updates are partly because of my IRL schedule, and partly, to be honest, due to me wasting a massive amount of time doing other things. The first I have no control over, but the latter...
...Let's just say that the bolded section made me almost headdesk. Because it's the sort of solution that's so obvious only I couldn't see it from miles away. I'll definitely be doing that from now on.
I've also discovered that about the Quest-like format; the choices not taken say almost as much as the ones that were, in the sense that they're the things that one wanted to do, but didn't.
And yeah; I do enjoy writing Gestalt. I do have some low spots from time to time, but writing it really gets me in a good mood!
Thank you very much for that.
I wonder just how much of the E S C A L A T I O N meme is down to... well, this board's character.
And as for PMMM, Rebellion nearly did in my interest for PMMM as a whole, not gonna lie. First, undoing the very satisfying ending and message of the anime. Then the fact that, in order to do so, the midly assasinated Homura's character (IMO).
And then going for a cycle of prequels and AU and a god-damned Gacha game and-... Yeah. Let's just say I've been out of that fandom for a while.
Still, thanks for your insight.
Magireco did manage to get an anime based on it after the game went kaput, at least. And as for the movie, it keeps threatening to happen, and if it doesn't involve Madoka doing the Living Concept equivalent of slapping Homura upside the head, I'll pretend it doesn't exist.
Thank you!
If you do, just... remember that the first few chapters are especially weak. But thanks, nonetheless.
I think one of my strengths is being able to get in someone's headspace and give each character a unique "mental voice", so to speak, and I'm happy you like that! Thank you.
Well, I'm glad that you've been liking the way it's been developing, messy start and all. Thank you.
And thank you, all of you. For being here. I'm... I won't get into it, but I occasionally have significant issues in my personal life. Knowing that people enjoy what I write has gotten me through more than I'm confortable with mentioning here. Thank you.
And now, the romance. And for that, I think I'll need a whole other post...
DeclanDSI
Touhou 「 」 Youkai of 「Akasha」
- Location
- the Boundaries betwixt Fact and Fiction
- Pronouns
- ???
I like the story, but I don't have much to say about it. I think some sort of overarching mystery would do well to generate discussion. Maybe more interaction with the magical girls and capes, with some sort of incoming conflict, like new magical girls moving in, or something like that. Perhaps longer updates so that there's more to talk about? I'm just spitballing random ideas here.
I think we've got at least a couple candidate mysteries. What is it that the Catrabbits are doing in response to the Shards? Is Dinah specifically part of that? What are the PMMM canon characters here to do? Oh yeah, and what the deal is with Rebecca's father, which I hadn't thought would actually matter besides 'gone' but I think there's an authorial post suggesting it does.
However, I'm not sure we've got much for mysteries that have been developed yet as opposed to being introduced. Maybe 'what is Sarah's deal' counts though.
Q&A 6: Romance?
Dalek Ix
Verified Dalek
While there are a few things that I'd rather not say due to spoiling future plotlines, I can say that @CharlieKing is closer to the current situation than @MilitantBird .
I've also said some of this before, but considering how long I've let this thread sit at times, I think a repeat (and some added info) is in order:
From Rachel's side: There's two aspects about her character that get in the way of her getting within shouting distance of romantic attachments.
First, her belief that she needs to justify her continued existence by doing good things, in order to make up for all the bad things she did, could have done, and might still be doing. In her own head, she's a horrible person by nature and has no business looking for people that might love her.
Second, is that she's accepted her status as a Magical Girl to an extent that other Puella Magi find disturbing. She's a crystlized soul driving around a meat puppet, and she knows she'll be dead sooner rather than later, so even if she wasn't a horrible person, looking for someone to form a romantic attatchment with is only going to end in tears.
You'll note that none of this is very mentally healthy. But the end result is that, even though Rachel will admit to being pretty, the idea that someone might be genuinely attracted to her ---and especially someone who's been told all her dirty laundry--- is completely ludicrious. As far as she's concerned, any romantic relationship with her is doomed from the start, she doesn't deserve it in the first place, and any evidence to the contrary is just wishful thinking.
Of course, that doesn't stop her from wanting things she believes she can't/shouldn't have. Well, part of her, at any rate.
(I repeat myself, but thank you all.)
And as for Taylor...
First: Taylor's orientation. I'd like to point out that Wildbrow said that he'd written Taylor as being heterosexual, since he wasn't 100% sure how to write a lesbian and didn't want to fuck it up.
But this is fanfic, and so, we can interpret things... differently. As I said before:
Furthermore: Taylor pre-Locker isn't an emotionless automaton of E S C A L A T I O N (nor is she afterwards; she just dumps her emotional responses into her swarm). So she feels embarassed at being carried around in public by her absolute knucklehead of a friend.
And as far as her feelings for Rachel herself go... Well, as I said, that's where things get complicated. And they're not looking to be getting any less complicated anytime soon.
I enjoy this story, I watch it, but I only check back this website every couple of weeks to look for updates. I don't engage in conversation about stories for the most part because I'm socially awkward and don't like to engage with other readers - it always ends in fights that put authors off.
But don't think that means there's nobody appreciating it. I understand your pain, comments are rare when I post as well, but follows and active reader counts are far more noteworthy in terms of whether people are reading.
Just so long as the mods don't have to get involved, I'm not against a friendly e-scuffle or two. You know, just so long as things remain mostly civil.
And thanks for commenting.
Well, if that's the case, I'm honored that you like this regardless. Thank you.
And as for what is next: I'm gonna try to do what was suggested previously and get a few chapters written so I can keep some form of consistent schedule for releasing them. It won't be the One Chapter A Day schedule I had at the start, but It'll be consistent.
*Look at the two informationals that appeared while I was sleeping*
Well, looooooooonnnnnggggggggg post incoming.
I prefer when it doesn't happen, it is a boring cliche in wormfics at this point, not even counting the fact that it kills them most of the time. On the same vein, be very careful about Endbringer fights and Slaughterhouse arcs, they are one of the main cause of death of fics that manage to begin at least a little, then they get bogged down in these and just... stop.
Repeat after me:
-One: Social conflict is conflict
-Two: No, conflict is NOT necessary
-Three: Cooldown arcs enhance the rest and are very much a good thing
-Four: You want TENSION, not conflict, tension can be created by conflict but not necessarily
I would indeed argue against this idea, this is a fic killer, I know of precisely one, ONE, fic that managed to ressurect from this, Outcry, and even then, it stayed dead for years before it began the rewrite.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! The protagonist is an OC. (And not an SI, who are one of the few *exceptions* to the no Taylor rule but are also mostly garbage by their very nature)
I will reiterate against going rewrite. And, yeah, the queen of escalation is nothing but a boring cliche at this point, no matter how much it is clamored for.
Remember, hindsight is 20/20, no matter how obvious the solution can seems when you have it, not having it doesn't make you stupid, it just means you didn't think of it, which is normal.
Thank you for remembering this.
Even once a month feel far less long when it's every month. And don't worry too much about some of us stopping reading because of long inactivity, I am watching the PMIM quest, for example, and it tends to drop dead for far longer than this story, why, it even is currently!
Well, looooooooonnnnnggggggggg post incoming.
I prefer when it doesn't happen, it is a boring cliche in wormfics at this point, not even counting the fact that it kills them most of the time. On the same vein, be very careful about Endbringer fights and Slaughterhouse arcs, they are one of the main cause of death of fics that manage to begin at least a little, then they get bogged down in these and just... stop.
Repeat after me:
-One: Social conflict is conflict
-Two: No, conflict is NOT necessary
-Three: Cooldown arcs enhance the rest and are very much a good thing
-Four: You want TENSION, not conflict, tension can be created by conflict but not necessarily
I would indeed argue against this idea, this is a fic killer, I know of precisely one, ONE, fic that managed to ressurect from this, Outcry, and even then, it stayed dead for years before it began the rewrite.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! The protagonist is an OC. (And not an SI, who are one of the few *exceptions* to the no Taylor rule but are also mostly garbage by their very nature)
I will reiterate against going rewrite. And, yeah, the queen of escalation is nothing but a boring cliche at this point, no matter how much it is clamored for.
Remember, hindsight is 20/20, no matter how obvious the solution can seems when you have it, not having it doesn't make you stupid, it just means you didn't think of it, which is normal.
Thank you for remembering this.
Even once a month feel far less long when it's every month. And don't worry too much about some of us stopping reading because of long inactivity, I am watching the PMIM quest, for example, and it tends to drop dead for far longer than this story, why, it even is currently!
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MWKillKenny84
Lurking from the Trauma Switch.
- Location
- Vado Ligure
No problem, and thanks for the reply.
Not every spin-off of MadoMagi is garbage, I point out. I read Tart Magica, Oriko Magica, and Kazumi Magica, and I used them as help to have a wider range of options while writing (oh God you have no idea how many problems having an Oriko that is not going for the 'Kill Madoka Before She Contracts' Route solves for me as an author and everyone else in-story.
I use the idea 'the events of Oriko Magica was Oriko seeing one way she could have died' with my adding as 'here she has chosen to kick her so-called Destiny in the balls and do everything to not become what she saw').
Suzune Magica... I reference it, some of the things they appear there are a good showing, but... nope.
As for MagiRecord, it has interesting tools and is a good sandbox from where to farm ideas from, but... gacha? Nope^3. Perhaps I will seek the anime adaptation (that at least as an Acceptable Ending as far as I have heard), but I use more Word of Mouth to gather info.
Counter: WB wrote the TayXBrian 'relationship' so badly that the fandom either redoes it from scratch or tends to ignore it and go for any other pairing, but sadly (as I said previously) in canon there are so few decent males in Taylor's age range that the F/F options are more widely (and better) used.
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