General Exalted Thread
It's not so bad, if you believe some of the art it's not trireme vs junk, it's just trireme vs the HMS Victory. Because this is the kind of enemy that triremes are good at fighting, right? I personally don't see any problem matching that up against a single square sailed super-canoe.
Generally when I want an interdictor I tend to want things like "actually capable of fighting" and "not a really bad design with a 30% annual attrition rate in peacetime" but maybe it's just my inability to comprehend warfare as well as the most exalted Dragonblooded generals and admirals which is the issue here
Aren't you assuming late period sailing ships here?
Less sophisticated sailing ships( like carracks, say) carried significantly less..
And even in the East, Wikipedia suggests that expeditions like those of Zheng He in 1405 had 300 junks and ~30k men.
Then again, with Excellencies and Craft charms being what they are, there really is no reason why even Dragonbloods shouldn't have fleets of 18th century equivalent galleons and clippers in the water.
Dragonbloods, war charms and mass combat.
Or so it seems to me.
Of course, one would think that they had the resources to optimize for their environment.
Lack of peer equivalent rivals, perhaps?
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
You don't even need Triremes to have rowing and boarding.
As my previous post showed (and anyway with halfway-decent knowledge of naval history knows) oars were used for propulsion and steering for a really long time.
Galleys were the main warships (not trading vessels, mind) in the mediterranean until well into the 17th century. They had a lot of variety to them and were used for boarding and ramming, but also for carrying artillery that was even able to engage coastal forts.
Longships were a very succesful design that was capable of crossing the Atlantic, and perfect for small military forces (for raiding and other purposes).
There were galleys with high freeboard which allowed them to survive the open seas.
The famous turtle ships used oars for in-battle propulsion.
Several types of junks used oars for tight maneuvers.
Galiots or half-galleys were essentially small, agile galleys armed with cannons and using oars in battle.
All these were far, far better designs than the trireme, which was really vulnerable to bad weather and outright unusable outside of calm coastal waters or the Mediterranean. Given that the realm is controlling parts of the west - an ocean far larger than the pacific - and the north - where bad weather is commonplace - they simply have to have a ship design that is better than the trireme. And the trireme basically offers no advantage over all of those designs, unless maaybe ease of construction, which is hardly an argument.
And obviously, the realm has the technology and tools to build such ships. They have a large enough, educated enough population. More importantly they have people with literary supernatural design skills. You'd think someone would have invented some better design over the centuries. Or at the very least maintained a better design that was invented during the first age.
If you want boarding - well, that happened all the time too. Age-of-Sail ships of the line engaged in boarding on occasion. Boarding happens for a ton of reasons, including rather obviously wanting to capture the enemy ship. You don't need triremes to justify boarding at all. And if you want to justify boarding as a main tactic - hey, having better troops lead by supersoldiers should be enough reason for that.
So we don't need triremes. Putting triremes prominently into the game - as opposed to a more generic "military ship that uses oars in battle" (which you can justc call a galley if you want to) - just robs us of all the richness of maritime warfare.
And that richness would be great. The realm wouldn't have the strongest navy because they have a few surviving artifact ships. No, they'd have the strongest navy since they're building 18th-century ships of the line. Ships that sail better, carry more troops, and have heavier armament and sturdier hulls purely by being well-designed, not by using magic materials. Ships that a dragonblooded captain can use to smash through the simple junks and galleys their opponents use, never mind repurposed coastal merchant vessels.
If you don't want to take age-of-sail ships directly - hey, there were such ships that had oars, if rather rarely. You could add turtle-ship features such as the enclosed roof, and a dragon-head of jade-steel that can channel a dragonbloods elemental attacks, as well as being used for ramming. Put more jade-steel into the construction because it's needed to survive a dragonbloods anima banner. You could use the smaller designs, such as third- or fifth-rates and change the rigging if you want it to look more "asian" (this would be a drawback, but eh). Or just add long silk-paper banners all over the rigging that are inscribed with old-realm text to ward off spirits that cause bad weather, and to maybe entice some weather spirits into providing good wind. You can add exotic features for boarding, such as maybe some of the openings for oars being able to have a man exit through them when opened properly, so that water-aspects can directly fight inside the water more easily (though a ladder would be objectively better).
So yeah. Fuck triremes. They're not even as cool as what we could have instead.
As my previous post showed (and anyway with halfway-decent knowledge of naval history knows) oars were used for propulsion and steering for a really long time.
Galleys were the main warships (not trading vessels, mind) in the mediterranean until well into the 17th century. They had a lot of variety to them and were used for boarding and ramming, but also for carrying artillery that was even able to engage coastal forts.
Longships were a very succesful design that was capable of crossing the Atlantic, and perfect for small military forces (for raiding and other purposes).
There were galleys with high freeboard which allowed them to survive the open seas.
The famous turtle ships used oars for in-battle propulsion.
Several types of junks used oars for tight maneuvers.
Galiots or half-galleys were essentially small, agile galleys armed with cannons and using oars in battle.
All these were far, far better designs than the trireme, which was really vulnerable to bad weather and outright unusable outside of calm coastal waters or the Mediterranean. Given that the realm is controlling parts of the west - an ocean far larger than the pacific - and the north - where bad weather is commonplace - they simply have to have a ship design that is better than the trireme. And the trireme basically offers no advantage over all of those designs, unless maaybe ease of construction, which is hardly an argument.
And obviously, the realm has the technology and tools to build such ships. They have a large enough, educated enough population. More importantly they have people with literary supernatural design skills. You'd think someone would have invented some better design over the centuries. Or at the very least maintained a better design that was invented during the first age.
If you want boarding - well, that happened all the time too. Age-of-Sail ships of the line engaged in boarding on occasion. Boarding happens for a ton of reasons, including rather obviously wanting to capture the enemy ship. You don't need triremes to justify boarding at all. And if you want to justify boarding as a main tactic - hey, having better troops lead by supersoldiers should be enough reason for that.
So we don't need triremes. Putting triremes prominently into the game - as opposed to a more generic "military ship that uses oars in battle" (which you can justc call a galley if you want to) - just robs us of all the richness of maritime warfare.
And that richness would be great. The realm wouldn't have the strongest navy because they have a few surviving artifact ships. No, they'd have the strongest navy since they're building 18th-century ships of the line. Ships that sail better, carry more troops, and have heavier armament and sturdier hulls purely by being well-designed, not by using magic materials. Ships that a dragonblooded captain can use to smash through the simple junks and galleys their opponents use, never mind repurposed coastal merchant vessels.
If you don't want to take age-of-sail ships directly - hey, there were such ships that had oars, if rather rarely. You could add turtle-ship features such as the enclosed roof, and a dragon-head of jade-steel that can channel a dragonbloods elemental attacks, as well as being used for ramming. Put more jade-steel into the construction because it's needed to survive a dragonbloods anima banner. You could use the smaller designs, such as third- or fifth-rates and change the rigging if you want it to look more "asian" (this would be a drawback, but eh). Or just add long silk-paper banners all over the rigging that are inscribed with old-realm text to ward off spirits that cause bad weather, and to maybe entice some weather spirits into providing good wind. You can add exotic features for boarding, such as maybe some of the openings for oars being able to have a man exit through them when opened properly, so that water-aspects can directly fight inside the water more easily (though a ladder would be objectively better).
So yeah. Fuck triremes. They're not even as cool as what we could have instead.
Bursting Eagerness Soul
Threadwalking Rating Machine
- Location
- Wisconsin
Don't you know? That's not considered 'magic' enough for 3E. It almost resembles *gasp* useful thaumaturgy!
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
@Serafina Basically, Exalted was at its strongest when the writers were well-researched and had relevant education or interests outside of Exalted, its surface inspirations, or game design. Borgstrom brought computer science and mythology, for example.
So... I really enjoy your post on maritime technology, but it's a bittersweet appreciation. We have writers who do not want to research.
So... I really enjoy your post on maritime technology, but it's a bittersweet appreciation. We have writers who do not want to research.
Serafina Homebrew: The Resplendent Dragon's Claw
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
Eh, let me just write this monstrosity up real quick.
I'm not an expert in ship design, so if I screw anything up too badly just tell me.
The Resplendent Dragons Claw - Dragon-class Warships
To most people of Creation, the sight of these ships is as representative to the Realms might as the sight of a Dragonblood in all it's glory. This ship type has been the mainstay of the imperial navy since the Scarlet Empress took her throne, and it has been in use even before that ancient time. It is this type of ship that ensures the Realms naval dominance, for most navies can not even hope to defeat a single vessel of this construction.
With a length of almost a sixty meters and three masts that stand almost as tall, the sheer sight of this ship is impressive. Constructed from trees that grow in wood-demenses, this vessel is supported by a keel of black jade-steel. This solid construction forms a long, sleek hull with narrow beam which allows for great speeds.
The upper-most deck features a single row of artillery. Originally designed to house essence cannons, these days most dragon-class ships carry twenty-two ballistas. However, an enemy must always expect the searing beam of an essence cannon if they fight a Resplendent Dragons Claw, as the Realm still maintains a great many of them.
Most striking is the enclosed roof above the uppermost deck. This concex structure is made from made from numerous serracted scales. It does not covered the raised deck at the the stern, which serves as a command deck for improved visibility. However, this structure is surrounded by a steel-forged thorn hedge. Any boarding sailor is more likely to be sliced apart by these than to have any chance to fight this ships crew.
The prow of this ship is heavily reinforced and is often used for ramming. The long, metal dragons head on the prow serves not just as a ram, but is reinforced partially with red jade-steel that can channel a dragon-bloods elemental powers into devastating long-range attacks, dooming any vessel chased by this ship. Often, this is instead replaced with a firedust-cannon. Several hatches and boarding ramps in the prow allow the troops onboard the ship to assail any vessel that survives getting rammed by this sturdy ship.
Since these ships are meant for dragonblooded captains, the topmost deck, prow and several other areas also feature metal plating on their floor and roofs, with patches even being reinforced with blue jade-steel. This is simply a necessity to avoid heavy damage to the ship from anima flare.
The tall reinforced masts are reinforced with green jade-steel and feature cleverly designed rigging, with a great many mechanical parts that form perhaps the greatest advantage and secret of this type of ship. They allow the ship to rapidly change it's rigging even in combat, when the crew takes shelter under the reinforced roof. This is further improved by the sails, which are constructed in the same manner as most junks, with wooden battens that allow the sails be be rapidly turned. This makes the sail less efficient, but is ideal for a fighting ship.
To make them capable of fighting in any wind conditions Dragon-class warships have oar-ports just slightly above the waterline. In rough weather, these are tightly sealed to protect the vessel from the battering sea, but in combat or the absence of wind this propulsion they are often used by the crew to outmaneuver enemy shops with ease. Due to the ships great weight this is an exhausting endeavor and offers little additional speed, but the maneuverability and independence from the weather is considered worthwhile.
A Resplendent Dragons Claw only needs a small crew to sail effectively, and there are tales of them being sailed by only a dragonblooded captain and a handful of sailors. However, these ships carry a crew of over 300, with almost 100 of them being dedicated soldiers from the imperial legions. In typical naval combat, these soldiers man the ships oars while the sailors man the weapons and rigging. Such roles can be reversed if boarding actions are expected, though often the soldiers are also employed in lookouts and platforms on the masks to rain arrows down upon enemies.
Being the pride of the Realms navy, these ships often feature elaborate decoration. The raised deck at the ships stern features most lavish quarters, though their heavy weight is carefully integrated into the ships balance which makes them far from useless. The same goes for the often lavishly painted hull and the colored silken sails, as well as the meters-long charms that hang from its rigging, which send a strong message to the elementals, gods and other spirits of the world that this ship is sailed by the princes of the earth and must be blessed by all of them.
Overall, the Dragon-class Warship is a versatile, extremely durable ship. It's solid construction and shielded deck make it resistant to both naval artillery, arrows and boarding. It carries enough artillery to defeat most ships with ease, and enough soldiers to engage in boarding actions or attack a coastal target. Still, it's sails are vulnerable to artillery and it's shielded deck reduces it's visibility, both of which can be exploited by clever enemies. However, should such a ship be sailed by a prince of the earth, these weaknesses often all but vanish.
As I said, this may contain glaring errors - it might easily be too heavy, the oars may not make any sense or it may be something I haven't even thought off.
Basically, I took a heavy fleet frigate, slapped on the features of a turtle ship, and then added a few things that fitted well with Exalted.
Partial-steel construction just made sense to resist anima-banner, and jade-steel can actually offer several elemental advantages (red to channel elemental attacks and firedust, green to enhance the masts wood, blue for being lightweight, black because it interacts well with water).
They probably have some really good wood, what with wood being an element and wood-demenses on the blessed isle probably producing very sturdy wood.
I also used the advanced rigging of a windjammer, and junk sails to make it require less crew.
It's probably not as fast as possible, but a frigate of this construction could get 13 knots. Reduce that a bit for additional weight (though I already halved the artillery complement to compensate for that) and call it ten knots, that's still faster than most galleys which made 8 knots or less. Being faster than the enemy is fast enough, after all.
It's just a shame that I can't draw at all, much less ships, and am too poor to afford any commissions. Oh well, still nice to write about.
I'm not an expert in ship design, so if I screw anything up too badly just tell me.
The Resplendent Dragons Claw - Dragon-class Warships
To most people of Creation, the sight of these ships is as representative to the Realms might as the sight of a Dragonblood in all it's glory. This ship type has been the mainstay of the imperial navy since the Scarlet Empress took her throne, and it has been in use even before that ancient time. It is this type of ship that ensures the Realms naval dominance, for most navies can not even hope to defeat a single vessel of this construction.
With a length of almost a sixty meters and three masts that stand almost as tall, the sheer sight of this ship is impressive. Constructed from trees that grow in wood-demenses, this vessel is supported by a keel of black jade-steel. This solid construction forms a long, sleek hull with narrow beam which allows for great speeds.
The upper-most deck features a single row of artillery. Originally designed to house essence cannons, these days most dragon-class ships carry twenty-two ballistas. However, an enemy must always expect the searing beam of an essence cannon if they fight a Resplendent Dragons Claw, as the Realm still maintains a great many of them.
Most striking is the enclosed roof above the uppermost deck. This concex structure is made from made from numerous serracted scales. It does not covered the raised deck at the the stern, which serves as a command deck for improved visibility. However, this structure is surrounded by a steel-forged thorn hedge. Any boarding sailor is more likely to be sliced apart by these than to have any chance to fight this ships crew.
The prow of this ship is heavily reinforced and is often used for ramming. The long, metal dragons head on the prow serves not just as a ram, but is reinforced partially with red jade-steel that can channel a dragon-bloods elemental powers into devastating long-range attacks, dooming any vessel chased by this ship. Often, this is instead replaced with a firedust-cannon. Several hatches and boarding ramps in the prow allow the troops onboard the ship to assail any vessel that survives getting rammed by this sturdy ship.
Since these ships are meant for dragonblooded captains, the topmost deck, prow and several other areas also feature metal plating on their floor and roofs, with patches even being reinforced with blue jade-steel. This is simply a necessity to avoid heavy damage to the ship from anima flare.
The tall reinforced masts are reinforced with green jade-steel and feature cleverly designed rigging, with a great many mechanical parts that form perhaps the greatest advantage and secret of this type of ship. They allow the ship to rapidly change it's rigging even in combat, when the crew takes shelter under the reinforced roof. This is further improved by the sails, which are constructed in the same manner as most junks, with wooden battens that allow the sails be be rapidly turned. This makes the sail less efficient, but is ideal for a fighting ship.
To make them capable of fighting in any wind conditions Dragon-class warships have oar-ports just slightly above the waterline. In rough weather, these are tightly sealed to protect the vessel from the battering sea, but in combat or the absence of wind this propulsion they are often used by the crew to outmaneuver enemy shops with ease. Due to the ships great weight this is an exhausting endeavor and offers little additional speed, but the maneuverability and independence from the weather is considered worthwhile.
A Resplendent Dragons Claw only needs a small crew to sail effectively, and there are tales of them being sailed by only a dragonblooded captain and a handful of sailors. However, these ships carry a crew of over 300, with almost 100 of them being dedicated soldiers from the imperial legions. In typical naval combat, these soldiers man the ships oars while the sailors man the weapons and rigging. Such roles can be reversed if boarding actions are expected, though often the soldiers are also employed in lookouts and platforms on the masks to rain arrows down upon enemies.
Being the pride of the Realms navy, these ships often feature elaborate decoration. The raised deck at the ships stern features most lavish quarters, though their heavy weight is carefully integrated into the ships balance which makes them far from useless. The same goes for the often lavishly painted hull and the colored silken sails, as well as the meters-long charms that hang from its rigging, which send a strong message to the elementals, gods and other spirits of the world that this ship is sailed by the princes of the earth and must be blessed by all of them.
Overall, the Dragon-class Warship is a versatile, extremely durable ship. It's solid construction and shielded deck make it resistant to both naval artillery, arrows and boarding. It carries enough artillery to defeat most ships with ease, and enough soldiers to engage in boarding actions or attack a coastal target. Still, it's sails are vulnerable to artillery and it's shielded deck reduces it's visibility, both of which can be exploited by clever enemies. However, should such a ship be sailed by a prince of the earth, these weaknesses often all but vanish.
As I said, this may contain glaring errors - it might easily be too heavy, the oars may not make any sense or it may be something I haven't even thought off.
Basically, I took a heavy fleet frigate, slapped on the features of a turtle ship, and then added a few things that fitted well with Exalted.
Partial-steel construction just made sense to resist anima-banner, and jade-steel can actually offer several elemental advantages (red to channel elemental attacks and firedust, green to enhance the masts wood, blue for being lightweight, black because it interacts well with water).
They probably have some really good wood, what with wood being an element and wood-demenses on the blessed isle probably producing very sturdy wood.
I also used the advanced rigging of a windjammer, and junk sails to make it require less crew.
It's probably not as fast as possible, but a frigate of this construction could get 13 knots. Reduce that a bit for additional weight (though I already halved the artillery complement to compensate for that) and call it ten knots, that's still faster than most galleys which made 8 knots or less. Being faster than the enemy is fast enough, after all.
It's just a shame that I can't draw at all, much less ships, and am too poor to afford any commissions. Oh well, still nice to write about.
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Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Lets be fair here, and this is coming from someone that wants to whack certain members of the third edition team with the Orichalcum edition (and is quite curious whether or not I'm one of the fans they badmouth to other fans).
Eric Minton and Dean (not sure if they are both still associated, I haven't gone to the forums properly since the Onyx Path move) were both fairly good at doing the research and using what they read to expand upon certain things and make them more historically accurate. Its Holden and Morke that tend to be more dedicated to legacy code such as Triremes and the BP/XP divide (though Triremes weren't as much a thing in first edition.
Though at this point I honestly believe that Morke/Holden intend to keep Triremes in to fuck with us (not the fan base, the Triremes haters in this thread).
Its amusing, I might actually be the main cause of the hatred for triremes (or at least started the bitch fests in this particular thread). A few years ago a few of us got sick of waiting for third edition and decided to do a swashbuckling age of sails style adventure in the West. Only for us to collectively rediscover not only how bloody boring the west was, but because of how shitty creations vessels was, it was completely impossible to do any swashblucking or iron men and wooden ships actions.
I mean sure the lack of cannons was also a pain, but its kind of hard to have a cool fight in the rigging of a Trireme.
So I came here and had a little rant, and it ended up being a thing that came up every few months since.
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- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
That's really the thing, isnt' it? 3E's approach to magic is just so... generically reductionist. No, you're not allowed to understand how things work, what kind of heretical freak are you?! You'll damage the elegant, sacred mystery of magyk with your heathen ravings!
While trying to 'preserve the essential mystery of magic' or whatever braindead claptrap they were rushing to enforce, the designers seem to have instead stripped out Exalted's established ideas and themes in exchange for - well, not much that's worth having. When magic is some woobly enigma-force that follows no rules, not even its own, and has no non-arbitrary limitations, then you haven't given your customers a living, breathing perspective on the arcane. All you've done is live down to the old Quesada meme of "It's magic; I don't have to explain it", and in the process made the entire setting run on fiat and handwaving instead of any coherent in-universe system.
At that point, replacing the interesting hybrid of mythic overtones and all-too-human corruptibility of 1E and 2E's First Age with, well, Generic Storied Past #513413087, is just pissing on the ashes. Instead of building on what came before, they bulldozed everything and set up a bunch of fog machines and showy light projectors which they claim is just as good as actual physical matter you can interact with.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Because adding/keeping an element specifically because people dislike it is good game design.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Because adding/keeping an element specifically because people dislike it is good game design.
*shrug*
I want Sail the ablitiy to mean something.
Which means we need a naval combat system and vessels that don't suck.
This is my completely biased self talking, but there is more room for Age of Sails style vessels to show the true magnificence of an Exalted Captain whose specialized in their craft rather then flimsy poking vessels.
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- Location
- Gladstone, OR
I should point something out re: Sail
Exalted goes out of its way to allow for Sail (or Ride) to be used in all Directions. It's just... lack of imagination, honeslty. Like- yes the books are to blame for not properly giving us enough to inspire, but well. Rivers in the East are wide enough to sail on, mundane skyships, ice ships and sandships are a thing, as are full on land-ships as an artifact.
Exalted goes out of its way to allow for Sail (or Ride) to be used in all Directions. It's just... lack of imagination, honeslty. Like- yes the books are to blame for not properly giving us enough to inspire, but well. Rivers in the East are wide enough to sail on, mundane skyships, ice ships and sandships are a thing, as are full on land-ships as an artifact.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
The problem is that the full on artifact land-ships quite frankly suck, especially when balanced against both exotic mounts (through survival and ride) and non-artifact air-ships.
I mean yes, owning a collapsible land ship is cool, but it comes under the same issue a lot of cool magical artifacts have... they are waste of dots to start with, and time to craft/steal in universe.
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FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
Thanks to input from @HMS Sophia I modified the ship a bit.
The oars are now described as being purely for maneuverability and in cases of having no wind.
The junk rigging is acknowledged as an explicit weakness, at least if the enemy shoots out the battens (though if there's a sturdy leightweight wood, or feathersteel or anything, that might be less of a weakness. ordinary steel would be too heavy).
There's now a command deck which isn't roofed over, for visibility. Add some fancy metal razor-wire like stuff around it that's probably stylized in some dragon-like manner for boarding-protection, but it's still not quite as protected.
And I reduced the crew a bit too.
The oars are now described as being purely for maneuverability and in cases of having no wind.
The junk rigging is acknowledged as an explicit weakness, at least if the enemy shoots out the battens (though if there's a sturdy leightweight wood, or feathersteel or anything, that might be less of a weakness. ordinary steel would be too heavy).
There's now a command deck which isn't roofed over, for visibility. Add some fancy metal razor-wire like stuff around it that's probably stylized in some dragon-like manner for boarding-protection, but it's still not quite as protected.
And I reduced the crew a bit too.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
Exalted, where they are sophisticated enough to build articulated full plate but not masts.
- Location
- The end of all things
That's not entirely true. For all it's considerable drawbacks, the trireme is substantially faster than all of the later "better" designs. This extra speed was important for successfully ramming. As artillery improved, ramming became less important—and less safe—so the design compromises necessary to achieve that speed no longer had to be made, resulting in more sturdy and seaworthy ships. How this would play out in a world where magic is real and gunpower is a lie I have no clue, but fleet level engagements are going to involve a lot of magic. The wind may be a natural phenomenon in our world, but in theirs it is merely another battleground.
So if ramming is a viable naval combat tactic(not entirely implausible), trireme-esque designs might be useful, if you can keep the damn things from sinking in at least some places of interest. You wouldn't use them in the high seas of the far West, but perhaps you might in the unnaturally calm waters around the Blessed Isle or in the various inland waterways.
To be honest, I always assumed that the Realm's "triremes" were more or less what you'd get if you gave a bunch of superhuman 18th century shipwrights an impossibly sharp and strong jade-steel ram and told them to use it to design vessels optimized for ramming. Given material constraints, it was an obvious approach. Besides, the more advanced vessels from previous ages had rams.
If that seems crazy, it's because Shogunate ships were what you'd get from 19th century shipwrights. The ones who IRL stuck rams on everything...
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Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
"Oh, no, ye don't want to be building your palace in the Wailing Fen. 'tis a cursed place."
"I see. Thank you for the warning, old man! I shall have my architect draw up plans for a palace a few miles to the south of the fen's borders."
"Oh, no, ye don't want to be building your palace there. 'tis also cursed."
"Well, then, I'll have to try the hills to the west."
"I don't mean to be sounding like a parakeet, but the hills, they also be cursed."
"...the north?"
"Pretty well cursed, indeed."
"East?"
"Sorry."
"Is there anywhere around here that isn't cursed?!"
"Hey, now, were I of a younger temperament I'd be taking offense to that! We're a cursing people, ye know. My father was cursed, and his father before him was cursed, and my great-grandmother was a dab hand with curses who was cursed herself, by my aunt. 'twas how she won my uncle's hand in the first place. We're proud of our curses, around here – they're not the mass-produced flimflam ye get in your fancy cities. 'tis cursing country."
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, Elemental Bolt Attack is a Tier 1, Essence 2, Lore 2 Dragonblooded Charm. Literally every Realm Dragonblooded can start with it. It's functionally artillery, and that's before you take sorcerers into account.
So, I've been playing around with some thoughts about the lack of "golem" effects in sorcery, and that's feeding into my end goal of rebuilding parts of sorcery so the sorcerer who summons demons, the necromancer who binds the dead into long-dead bodies and the sorcerer-engineer who builds golems are all roughly equal in capacity and valid choices.
This is basically a prototype produced with the spell rules I'm still playing over. The basic idea for what the sorcerer will do, though, is the first step for golems and automata is building the body, and then the sorcerer animates it. A better body makes them better - but even if it's not built as an artefact, they should still be competitive with Do1C, because what you lose in raw power, you gain in perfect loyalty and less "dealing with demons" micromanagement.
For artefact bodies - and working in accordance with what I'm working towards as sorcery's thing - they're fuelled by "committed" backgrounds, generalising from some of the existing hearthstone rules. So one of the easiest ways to fuel your construct is by fuelling it with hearthstones, but that's not the only way. Maybe you commit a Resources rating to it, representing how it burns through lots and lots of rare ingredients as fuel. Maybe it requires a committed Ally, indicating at you need some powerful supernatural helper to keep it repaired. Or maybe it has a committed demesne, meaning it only works within the demesne where it can draw essence from the environment and shuts down if you take it away from the place.
This is compatible with any form of Essence - at least that's my intent. For people who've read the Protector of the Small books, by Tamora Pierce? The iron golem things are what I see as a path for channeling necrotic essence into animating an automaton - though, of course, by intent sorcerers are encouraged to find a shortcut by animating their things using ghosts, elementals or demons which give you more power at the cost of making them more unpredictable and less loyal than a pure automaton.
So, anyway, here's a prototype of what I intend for the rules to let you do. I'm using my Fast Demon quick NPC rules for this, because my Fast Demon rules are way, way easier for making NPCs than statting them up normally.
The Red Bronze Hounds
Fire-Aspected Terrestrial Automaton
Forged by Sinasana Jihibalani
Pot-bellied bronze humans whose faces are of a lion-dog, the Red Bronze Hounds stand only a metre and a half in height - but are almost as broad as they are tall. Their massive forearms are as long as their legs. When they exert themselves, their bellies glow a cherry red and smoke vents from their mouth. A bonfire burns in their rounded gut, and it is the fire in there that gives them their semblance of life.
Red Bronze Hounds are no great thinkers, limited by the skill of their maker. Nevertheless, they serve their role well They are unfailingly loyal, endlessly protective of anything they are set to guard and have no moral protestations at anything they are set to do - all admirable qualities. A graduate of the Heptagram might mock them for a certain crudeness in their forging, clumsiness in their limbs and the limitations of their mind, but their maker shaped them well for their role.
They were forged by one of the members of the House Sinasana, a Cadet House of the Realm that rules over the sweltering city of Saata in the far South West, with the purpose of guarding their palaces and treasure houses. Sinasana Jihibalani was an outcaste blacksmith and self-taught sorcerer found by the Sinasana family, and adopted to be their house's armourer. She works in metal by choice, and is is thanks to her that the family has many strange creatures made from living metal within their gardens and palaces. There are perhaps thirty Red Bronze Hounds currently in service to the house, made by her and her newly trained sorcerous assistant.
The Red Bronze Hounds are not built from an artefact chassis, Sinasana Jihibalani instead going for ease of construction and maintenance over quality. As a result, their requirements for maintenance and fuel are easy enough for the Cadet House to meet - they need only be kept clean and have wood shoveled into the furnace in their bellies. Should the fire go out, they perish, though the chassis will be salvageable. Their unenlightened senses are blind to essence and they cannot wield it themselves, but they serve entirely well to smash mobs and those who would protest against rule of House Sinasana without forcing them to leave their smoking rooms.
Physical: 4; Physical Styles: Thief-Smashing Lion-Dog 10, Floor-Shaking Pursuant 6
Social: 1; Social Styles: Unwaveringly Loyal Guardian 10, Booming Herald 4
Mental: 1; Mental Styles: Watchful Sentinel 6
Enlightenment: 0;
Arms: SPD 6, ACC -4, DMG 10B, DEF -2, Rate 2 (Thick Heated Bronze Arms)
Armour: 10 (Thick Cast Bronze Skin)
Join Battle 3; DV 4
Accuracy: 6; Damage: 15B
Soak 12; Health Levels; 4
MDV 5; Urge: Safeguard The Treasures Of My Masters
Principles: Loyalty to House Sinsana (5), Keep My Fires Burning (4), Clean Floors (3)
Fast Charms: None (Enlightenment 0)
This is basically a prototype produced with the spell rules I'm still playing over. The basic idea for what the sorcerer will do, though, is the first step for golems and automata is building the body, and then the sorcerer animates it. A better body makes them better - but even if it's not built as an artefact, they should still be competitive with Do1C, because what you lose in raw power, you gain in perfect loyalty and less "dealing with demons" micromanagement.
For artefact bodies - and working in accordance with what I'm working towards as sorcery's thing - they're fuelled by "committed" backgrounds, generalising from some of the existing hearthstone rules. So one of the easiest ways to fuel your construct is by fuelling it with hearthstones, but that's not the only way. Maybe you commit a Resources rating to it, representing how it burns through lots and lots of rare ingredients as fuel. Maybe it requires a committed Ally, indicating at you need some powerful supernatural helper to keep it repaired. Or maybe it has a committed demesne, meaning it only works within the demesne where it can draw essence from the environment and shuts down if you take it away from the place.
This is compatible with any form of Essence - at least that's my intent. For people who've read the Protector of the Small books, by Tamora Pierce? The iron golem things are what I see as a path for channeling necrotic essence into animating an automaton - though, of course, by intent sorcerers are encouraged to find a shortcut by animating their things using ghosts, elementals or demons which give you more power at the cost of making them more unpredictable and less loyal than a pure automaton.
So, anyway, here's a prototype of what I intend for the rules to let you do. I'm using my Fast Demon quick NPC rules for this, because my Fast Demon rules are way, way easier for making NPCs than statting them up normally.
The Red Bronze Hounds
Fire-Aspected Terrestrial Automaton
Forged by Sinasana Jihibalani
Pot-bellied bronze humans whose faces are of a lion-dog, the Red Bronze Hounds stand only a metre and a half in height - but are almost as broad as they are tall. Their massive forearms are as long as their legs. When they exert themselves, their bellies glow a cherry red and smoke vents from their mouth. A bonfire burns in their rounded gut, and it is the fire in there that gives them their semblance of life.
Red Bronze Hounds are no great thinkers, limited by the skill of their maker. Nevertheless, they serve their role well They are unfailingly loyal, endlessly protective of anything they are set to guard and have no moral protestations at anything they are set to do - all admirable qualities. A graduate of the Heptagram might mock them for a certain crudeness in their forging, clumsiness in their limbs and the limitations of their mind, but their maker shaped them well for their role.
They were forged by one of the members of the House Sinasana, a Cadet House of the Realm that rules over the sweltering city of Saata in the far South West, with the purpose of guarding their palaces and treasure houses. Sinasana Jihibalani was an outcaste blacksmith and self-taught sorcerer found by the Sinasana family, and adopted to be their house's armourer. She works in metal by choice, and is is thanks to her that the family has many strange creatures made from living metal within their gardens and palaces. There are perhaps thirty Red Bronze Hounds currently in service to the house, made by her and her newly trained sorcerous assistant.
The Red Bronze Hounds are not built from an artefact chassis, Sinasana Jihibalani instead going for ease of construction and maintenance over quality. As a result, their requirements for maintenance and fuel are easy enough for the Cadet House to meet - they need only be kept clean and have wood shoveled into the furnace in their bellies. Should the fire go out, they perish, though the chassis will be salvageable. Their unenlightened senses are blind to essence and they cannot wield it themselves, but they serve entirely well to smash mobs and those who would protest against rule of House Sinasana without forcing them to leave their smoking rooms.
Physical: 4; Physical Styles: Thief-Smashing Lion-Dog 10, Floor-Shaking Pursuant 6
Social: 1; Social Styles: Unwaveringly Loyal Guardian 10, Booming Herald 4
Mental: 1; Mental Styles: Watchful Sentinel 6
Enlightenment: 0;
Arms: SPD 6, ACC -4, DMG 10B, DEF -2, Rate 2 (Thick Heated Bronze Arms)
Armour: 10 (Thick Cast Bronze Skin)
Join Battle 3; DV 4
Accuracy: 6; Damage: 15B
Soak 12; Health Levels; 4
MDV 5; Urge: Safeguard The Treasures Of My Masters
Principles: Loyalty to House Sinsana (5), Keep My Fires Burning (4), Clean Floors (3)
Fast Charms: None (Enlightenment 0)
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
I always figured those killing devices were a pure example of Necrotech myself.
Admittedly, when I first look at these ideas I admit my first thought was making a death essence infused Mordicant from Sabriel. Would likely be more of an 'artifact' one though, especially with its handy barrier bypassing effects.
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Yes, but I'm basically scrapping the word "necrotech" - and necromancy is "spells that need necrotic essence as the fuel source", just as infernal sorcery is "spells that need (Yozi) essence as the fuel source" and, quite possibly, astrology is "a subset of the spells that need (Maiden) essence as the fuel source".
So an Abyssal animates a golem made from iron-covered bones using the ghosts of murdered children, a water-aspect animates a golem using a carefully designed array of glass tubing within its guts which pump water from a sacred pool, a Solar animates a golem by carefully and beautifully writing the true name of the Unconquered Sun on its forehead - but when it comes down to it, those options are all roughly competitive with each other... and are also competitive with summoning a 1CD, adjusted for relative time investment, risk, and the time you'll need to spend managing the servant. And they all use the same basic spell mechanics for the animation, just using different essence sources from a different caster.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
About the issue I'd see with Astronomy becoming sorcery is that its meant to be a major part of Sidereal charmset (even if its a mostly trash), so having them all forced to use it doesn't sit right with me.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
Actually, speaking of Abhorsen...
One idea from that series I liked was that Dead spirits gradually corrupt and warp their physical vessels - after a year or so, your average Abhorsen zombie is going to have, at the very least, some seriously fucked-up proportions, and probably obvious signs of the skin being pulled, twisted, and stretched in places as the underlying musculature and bone are mutated as a byproduct of being a corpse unnaturally forced to act out a semblance of life by a malignant undead spirit. Particularly old examples of such will probably look Cthulhu tried to possess a cadaver.
Is there anything like that in the fluff for Underworld/necromancy-related horrors in Exalted?
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Not in canon, but EarthScorpion uses the series (and the greater dead in particular) as a rather large inspiration for both his version of the Greater Dead (second circle equivalents that could be summoned) and the underworld in general. I know hes written a bunch of that in this thread if I can find it.
Now I'm not saying his version of Free Magic involves Yozi Essence or Necromancy in his world might have a heavy musical component but...