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General Exalted Thread

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landcollector said:
Hmm, wouldn't that result in a bit of Background/Merit (whatever they're called in 3e, I don't know *shrugs*) bloat though?
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Not really, at least not in 2e. It's just two backgrounds, one of which is like the Dragon-blooded Artifact background and another that's like the Solar Artifact background - except they're actually written as separate backgrounds, rather than one that functions completely different for different splats.

I was primarily considering 2e, honestly. I'm not trying to fit things into 3e, and probably won't for a while - if ever.
 
Fenrir666 said:
What the fuck does 'Essence Reactive' actually mean, other than a stupid sciency sounding way to say magical?

I acknowledge that he summed up 2E artifacts fairly well. 3E does not fucking work like that anymore.
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Who in the blazes said I was being 3E exclusive.

As for Essence Reactive Materials being a scientific way to say magical materials..... Good I personally prefer it that way.

Jade, Moonsilver, Soulsteel etc. are all materials that interact with Essence (the essential property of the Exalted Universe) in reliable repeatable ways. Equipping whatever Exalts I play with a regalia of appropriate materials should be a challenge but not an insurmountable one.

Sure its bling, but bling that provides some cool effects without turning into a game shaping artifact.


Actually I do enjoy the term Wonders. Exalts are able to take full advantage of Wonderous materials, and thus often build a regalia of wonders. Most often including some form of weapon or armor with various other tools or devices.



Flipping over to big A Artifacts:

I feel a major part of Exalteds animistic universe is getting ignored here, Least Gods of Weapons.

Imagine if you will a Wondrous Direlance of some small island nation that is the weapon of a long ago hero and for the use of the Islands champion. Secured within a shrine the Direlance itself gets worshipped with prayer, festivals and stories glorifying the weapon.

Over the centuries the Least God gets glutted on the prayer essence and slowly grows and develops powerful Spirit Charms, each new champion of the island has to work with the Direlance's least god to gain access to them. Some Champions are favored while others are not.

The Direlance isn't just a wondrous weapon any longer, with an awakened Least God it is capable of unique feats provided the wielder can win over the Least God and provide it with essence.
 
Query, if I wanted to steal someones weapon in combat and replace it with a fish... would that be be a custom larceny charm based off Iron Wolves' Grasp, or simply a stunt
 
An odd thought occurred to me out of the blue: The fluff text for Effortless (Yozi) Dominance explains that releasing more of your motes into the environment twists the universe to cooperate with your efforts (resulting in cheaper Excellency activations). Would this reasoning mean that, inside their world-bodies, the Yozis have maxed-out discounts on their excellencies at all times? They are suffused with their own essence, after all.

It's an intellectual point since the number of motes a Yozi would have to spend to otherwise max the discount is negligible compared to their total pools, but I'm curious about what the community thinks.

Edit: And it could probably be relevant if an Infernal were to be fighting inside an area already tainted with their essence, such as a personal manse.
 
Peanuckle said:
An odd thought occurred to me out of the blue: The fluff text for Effortless (Yozi) Dominance explains that releasing more of your motes into the environment twists the universe to cooperate with your efforts (resulting in cheaper Excellency activations). Would this reasoning mean that, inside their world-bodies, the Yozis have maxed-out discounts on their excellencies at all times? They are suffused with their own essence, after all.

It's an intellectual point since the number of motes a Yozi would have to spend to otherwise max the discount is negligible compared to their total pools, but I'm curious about what the community thinks.

Edit: And it could probably be relevant if an Infernal were to be fighting inside an area already tainted with their essence, such as a personal manse.
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Huh, that makes sense, and would mean setting up (YOZI)-aspect manses would let you (an Infernal) gets discounts on the like-(YOZI) Excellency, which... You look even more like a final boss for a game (well more like Dungeon), which actually would be a really fun playstyle.

You do your empire building, and you have as your headquarters, a submerged Kimbery-Aspected manse in the middle of a Lake (Water Temple)[1]. The Plucky Young Hero's come fighting through, and when they reach your throne room/hearth-room, you begin the boss fight, you get a discount on your Kimbery-Excellency, and since its underwater, they have to have environmental survival charms, or they are trying to drain the lake to destroy the manse.

On the other hand, if you are the Plucky Young Hero, then your BBEG has a unfair auto discount on his scene long IAM equivalent, and you are at a disadvantage mote-wise, but you are walking onto a prepared killing ground anyways, hmm.

I would use that, because it feels thematic, and it provides plot hooks for everyone.

If Infernal, do you taint the Manse toward a (YOZI) or not. Is it worth the advantage that the Yozi essence would give you, and that might be noticed by your enemies? Or, the Hearthstones, do you risk having a potential fuel source knocked out of commission, or do you keep the normal aspect for the hearthstone fuel.

If not Infernal, if the Infernal has tainted the (de)manse, once you kill the Infernal (if attempting to kill), do you leave the manse standing, do you twist it back to a normal manse? Do you level the Manse and transform the Demanse to one of Creations elements?



[1] Does not have to be Kimbery-Aspected manse, that was what came to mind.
Edit: Finished
 
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Matthew G said:
If Infernal, do you taint the Manse toward a (YOZI) or not. Is it worth the advantage that the Yozi essence would give you, and that might be noticed by your enemies? Or, the Hearthstones, do you risk having a potential fuel source knocked out of commission, or do you keep the normal aspect for the hearthstone fuel.
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Yozi-aspected manses can be really awesome and totally worth the risk of drawing attention. Besides, a regular manse is going to draw attention too- everyone wants a piece of that pie.

Matthew G said:
If not Infernal, if the Infernal has tainted the (de)manse, once you kill the Infernal (if attempting to kill), do you leave the manse standing, do you twist it back to a normal manse? Do you level the Manse and transform the Demesne to one of Creations elements?
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I dunno if non-Infernals can use Infernal essence. In any case, it'd be best to change it back to a regular manse to stop the encroaching hellscape from going any further.

If this pre-discounted excellency were to be a thing, it might be a tad unbalanced because it gives Infernals a big starting dice bonus, whereas the equivalent Solar charm requires two committed motes per die. Though it does make for a thematic boss room fight, and that advantage only lasts for a few rounds (by which I mean the number of rounds it would take for the discount to be reached normally). It would also only apply in fixed locations such as manses or geomantically-altered areas, which are going to be attacked by larger numbers, so the boost might actually be balancing.
 
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Peanuckle said:
Edit: And it could probably be relevant if an Infernal were to be fighting inside an area already tainted with their essence, such as a personal manse.
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No, because fluff text is just fluff text. You need to take the actions it specifies, you can't short cut the mechanical limitations of the Charm like that.

Matthew G said:
If not Infernal, if the Infernal has tainted the (de)manse, once you kill the Infernal (if attempting to kill), do you leave the manse standing, do you twist it back to a normal manse? Do you level the Manse and transform the Demanse to one of Creations elements?
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It's manse and demesne, not manse and demanse.
 
notthepenguins said:
It's manse and demesne, not manse and demanse.
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Fixed. It's just an old spelling of "domain" anyhow. I used to pronounce is "deh-mez-knee" before hearing it.

notthepenguins said:
No, because fluff text is just fluff text. You need to take the actions it specifies, you can't short cut the mechanical limitations of the Charm like that.
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Fluff is the in-universe justification for mechanics, though, at least in this instance.
 
Carrnage said:
so Infernals aren't channeling definable aspects of their patrons when they use charms?
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They are, but it in no way affects the mechanics of the charms beyond what is explicitly stated.

Carrnage said:
Alchemicals don't physically install charms in their body?
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Bad example, because it does have mechanics backing it -- there are explicit rules governing things like cutting the Charms off of an Alchemical.
 
Sucal said:
Query, if I wanted to steal someones weapon in combat and replace it with a fish... would that be be a custom larceny charm based off Iron Wolves' Grasp, or simply a stunt
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Iron Wolves Grasp already creates a reflexive Disarm Gambit, logically you can use it while an enemy attacks. Replacing the stolen weapon with a fish (or other harmless item) would of course be a stunt.

Of course, a Gambit is by definition a form of decisive attack - and as such, if executed in the moment the enemy strikes, it would be a Clash Attack.

The sequence to execute this would thus be as follows:
1: Delay your own action, or use Iron Wolves Grasp to act simultaneously with the enemy
2: Make a Decisive Attack using one of your combat skills. Either beat the enemies Defense (if they are attacking a target other than you), or their Attack roll (if they are attacking you).
2A: on failure, your attempt ends. Lose 2 (if own Initiative <11) or 3 Initiative. If it was a clash attack, you are also hit by it.​
3: Roll your Initiative, gain at least 3 successes
3: on failure, your attempt ends.​
4: Your opponent is disarmed, and their attack thus becomes inapplicable. However, you might have already stopped them with your Clash-attack
5: If using Iron Wolves Grasp, you now hold their weapon and can attune to it, if it is an artifact.​
As you can see, this is a strategy that is possible without charms (if maybe not the most advisable). With Iron Wolves Grasp, it becomes a reflexive Clash Attack (to protect yourself) with the added benefit of robbing the enemy of their weapon. It can in both cases also be used to protect someone else, which is the best use of this tactic.
Note: You can also do the whole thing reflexively once per combat using Null Anima Glove's "Steal Inertia" technique.

The best use of it is with Iron Wolves Grasp, which sadly needs Essence 3. On the other hand, this tactic makes for a pretty effective signature combat technique and is thus a good incentive to take Larceny as a Supernal Ability, and it makes sense for it to be otherwise be restricted to higher-essence play.
 
On the topic of of 'How Artifacts Should Be'

I think some of the problems that exist, exist due to conflicting desires. Here are some that seem to be present in the population:
  • Artifacts should be Wondrous, i.e. they should provide something normally deemed not possible, or something much much better than can be achieved with common items.
  • PCs are usually Glorious Heroes of the Sun/Moon/Terra/Hell/Oblivion, so there's a desire to let them start out with something worthy of that descriptor.
  • Exalted is a fantasy setting (and an over-the-top one at that!), so it 'should' be filled with a sense of wonder, invoked quite often - possibly many times per session.
  • There were myriads of artifacts made in the First Age, and they're pretty good at staying functional throughout the centuries (well, some types of them, anyway).
  • Difficulty of building artifacts in the Second Age, to the point of sometimes being a lifetime work of a master artificer, that gets traded for a half-kingdom and, if lost, will result in armies sent to recover it by the dynasty to which it belongs.
  • Support for PC artificers of many splats, preferably in such a way that even a beginning artificer can make something of use/worthy of the name, even if not a top-of-the-line artifact.
  • Desire to make a sword of sufficiently many plusses on damage/accuracy to be considered as valuable as a nuke or other strategic asset (happens under some systems of purchasing artifacts; not sure if it's the case with any canonical artifacts of Exalted of either edition). Note that swords with an actual strategic-level effect, such as scaring whole armies, is not a 'sword of many plusses' - it is a strategic asset of its own; so it doesn't count for this comparison.
  • Players will want artifacts that fit their character concept. For instance, I bought the Chain version of the Gauntlets of Distant Claws (a grappling hook/harpoon artifact), because I wanted a grappling hook/harpoon item. I had to, because the chances of obtaining one randomly after the game starts are negligible.
I think that for the artifact situation to be resolved 'happily', the list of possible desires should be fully enumerated (surely my list of desires observed in fantasy players/GMs/authors is incomplete!), sorted, weighted, and prioritised, such that out of incompatible ones, the least important ones are thrown out, and the more important ones have the setting built around them.

Some more considerations that may influence the way artifacts are handled, and should be taken in mind when [re]designing the system:
  • Humans evaluate stuff. What that means is that even a unique artifact will be bought and sold if given enough material incentive. Just like collectors still buy and sell even unique items today. And with Exalted's highly-evolved monetary system (the Realm has a unified currency and banking, as does the Guild if one follows the books' description of it), people will think of many things in terms of cost. Even if cost involves spending some of the money on logistic maintenance of stuff.
  • People, including Solars, will make artifacts if it's worth the effort one way or another. If a mortal can't make it, and an Exalt has a better time spending that effort on learning a Charm that does what the artifact does directly (and both cost the same amount of motes), nobody will be making artifacts. Unless they can sell the artifact for what they consider a worthy exchange (see above).
  • If artifact uniqueness is enforced, then incentives for exchange are reduced, because an Exalt can no longer perfect one artifact recipe and proceed to trade five instances of a completed product for five different products made by five other artificers.
  • It is possible for alternate methods of artifact-creation to exist, such as the sword of a legendary warrior becoming an artifact upon the warrior's death. That is a different system entirely.

So . . . what sort of world is a desirable outcome, artifact-wise?
 
Jon Chung said:
"Meh" is relative. A First Age era suit of armour might be "just" a suit of really fantastic armour, let's say, but it's still worth retrieving to wear or sell for enormous amounts of money because the modern era does not have the ability to build that suit of armour any longer. Still, you know, it's a suit of armour. It won't give you a suite of Resistance Charms that need to be balanced against other Resistance Charms in an endless nightmare cascade of combinatorial hell. It won't give you +5 Dexterity. It's just armour.

And if you dig out the Solar equivalent of F-22 Raptors, that's fine, you don't have jet fuel, spare parts or the maintenance manual, better get on putting all those together. Probably need a nation-state, eh?
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On the topic:
While ASOIAF is a Low Fantasy setting it does fit, as a lot of Creation is relatively Low Fantasy. In Westeros Valyrian blades are literally priceless; we know this because the richest guys around couldn't get one. And yet what are Valyrian blades? They're lighter and harder than normal swords, and sharper without needing sharpening. Those are the basic qualities granted from a Magical Material based construction, before we get into any of the powers Artifacts possess in canon, and yet they are treasures Houses are based upon.

And they even come from a fallen age of magic!
 
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Dark Lord Bob said:
While ASOIAF is a Low Fantasy setting it does fit, as a lot of Creation is relatively Low Fantasy. In Westeros Valyrian blades are literally priceless; we know this because the richest guys around couldn't get one. And yet what are Valyrian blades? They're lighter and harder than normal swords, and sharper without needing sharpening. Those are the basic qualities granted from a Magical Material based construction, before we get into any of the powers Artifacts possess in canon, and yet they are treasures Houses are based upon.
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Ah, but is that enough to interest an Exalt?

The crux of the problem is, if i already have an Artifact (ie, the Exaltation itself) that allows me to break mountains with my fists with the added advantage that it can't be stolen or lost, why should i care about any magical sword that doesn't add anything to what i already can do and can be destroyed to boot?

Balancing artifacts properly is really really hard because the players already start with the best artifact that exists. If you give them better powers than their own charmset, you are breaking the game. If you don't, they are just useful but ultimately reemplazable tools, not unique wonders.

The solution in 3Ex is that you can buy Evocations with Solar XP (And thus, they don't really compete with charms, since you can only buy these with normal XP). So you can expend all your normal XP in non-combat solar charms and your Solar XP in Evocations if you want.

(I haven't played 3Ex, so of course i can't attest how good that solution is in practice)
 
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Broken25 said:
Balancing artifacts properly is really really hard because the players already start with the best artifact that exists. If you give them better powers than your own charmset, you are breaking the game. If you don't, they are just useful but ultimately reemplazable tools, not unique wonders.
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There's also the third option of giving them artifacts with powers different from their charmset, but not better or worse. A Solar may not be able to call forth burnination with his sun-granted powers, but Volcano Cutter can do the job.
 
I think the best solution here is perhaps to focus overtly "wondrous" Artifacts that give extra powers - as opposed to magical equipment like Keris's Cherub Shrine or a glasswing lance - on things that are awesome, but don't directly compete with the Exaltation. Like the Horn of the Mariner Queen I wrote for Sabin, which is probably the best Artifact in that doc. Or Keris's An Teng in Miniature that she made for the Shashalme as a zoomable, scrollable dynamic sculpture of An Teng that definitely isn't an 3D version of Google Maps in any way. Or things like the angyalka-bone gloves @EarthScorpion mentioned that let someone play the strands of Time.
 
Aleph said:
I think the best solution here is perhaps to focus overtly "wondrous" Artifacts that give extra powers - as opposed to magical equipment like Keris's Cherub Shrine or a glasswing lance - on things that are awesome, but don't directly compete with the Exaltation. Like the Horn of the Mariner Queen I wrote for Sabin, which is probably the best Artifact in that doc. Or Keris's An Teng in Miniature that she made for the Shashalme as a zoomable, scrollable dynamic sculpture of An Teng that definitely isn't an 3D version of Google Maps in any way. Or things like the angyalka-bone gloves @EarthScorpion mentioned that let someone play the strands of Time.
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Who the heck is Sabin and why does she have such cool shit?

Also, Imma steal that Horn. Me Lintha Princess needs more stuff to lord over her family.
 
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