I'm getting the feeling that Ex3's focus on small elite groups over generals and bureaucrats is gonna cause some issues when it comes to the Dragon-blooded splat, after all i'd be suprised if they manage to pull off the splat which excels at working in large numbers in a system geared towards personal power.
 
Uhhh... Prophet of Seventeen Cycles, mechanically, just gives people situational penalties. It's not the Impossible Game Changer you're talking about
Mechanically, it gives both penalties and bonuses. Consider how annoying it would be to run a military campaign where literally everything important seems to somehow go wrong or be way harder than it rightfully should. At the same time, everything goes just right for your opponents. Even the weather, which so torments you. This is what happens when you oppose a Solar Strategist and he starts spamming Po17C.

It may crush mortals with their tiny dice pools, but it's probably not enough to stop a determined Exalt. It will, however, provide a significant advantage unless someone such as a Sidereal can upend the Solar's delicate predictive calculations by simply rending the threads of fate.
 
Last edited:
Mechanically, it gives both penalties and bonuses. Consider how annoying it would be to run a military campaign where literally everything important seems to somehow go wrong or be way harder than it rightfully should. At the same time, everything goes just right for your opponents. Even the weather, which so torments you. This is what happens when you oppose a Solar Strategist and he starts spamming Po17C.
Oh no.

Situational bonuses and penalties.

Whatever shall I do the fates themselves are against me.

First, the Charm doesn't say how large the penalties actually are. So who the hell knows how much it will actually help you, beyond the grace of your Storyteller.

Second, going into full rhetoric mode over explaining how a Charm might benefit you doesn't actually make it look better. It just makes you look like you're trying too hard. Something to consider when you're trying to convince people in the future.
 
So remember when I said I am Done with Ex3? Well I am. I don't want to talk about it.

What I want to talk about is how to hack Exalted into a useful game system and avoiding the mistakes of the past and taking the strengths. So I will take some time in here to expound on what I would like to see in Exalted without really trying to go too far into creating an entire Not!Exalted game system. (Most of this is brainstorming, I'm far from wed to it.)

First: Storyteller or not?

Well, frankly, the problems with Storyteller are well known. The game system was originally designed to make shiving homeless people in a back alley a potentially dangerous encounter, which kind of falls apart when your system is supposed to emulate surfing down an avalanche fighting a volcano god as a low level encounter. I don't think the randomizer is really the problem, however. The d10 dicepools with target numbers and required numbers of 'successes' is as good a randomizer as any, the problem is a lot of unexamined legacy code from earlier forms of storyteller that have been assimilated in without examination. Scale is a big one, but other stuff is also in there. For instance the action economy has always been a big deal in Storyteller because in the very early ones you had to choose between attacking and defending.

So I have no problem with keeping the basic dicepool system, but other than that we can drop everything else and only include parts that make sense.

Second: Simple roll determination.

The basic idea of Storyteller is you add two (or more) traits to get your dicepool. This isn't bad and is relatively fast to figure out appropriate dicepools. However, after many years of playing the game I have discovered a fundamental truth. Rolling more than 10 dice sucks. It's possible to do it quickly, but most players don't want to have twenty or thirty dice, and counting successes on more dice is annoying unless you are trained for it. For that reason: No dicepool should be higher than 10 dice.

How do you accomplish this? All dicepools should be a combination of two traits, rated one to five. We'll use the standard Attribute/Skill split here, its a nice and simple one.

Okay, so how do you modify such rolls? This is usually where the heft of a game system comes in. Well, here is a where a lot of cruft of the last few editions has sneaked in. This is where I call No Stupid Dice Tricks. This is going to be pretty absolute. I hate stupid dice tricks. So no rerolls on getting a certain value, no double successes on a certain value, no botches on a certain value. Make the roll as simple as possible: If a die comes up equal to or greater than the target number, it is a success. Otherwise it isn't.

So modifiers; how should they work? Here I want to steal a bit from the new Sardonyx system stuff. In effect, all positive modifiers to a roll are applied as Bonus Successes. This is all modifiers. Charms? Equipment? Environmental? Bonus successes. The trick is that when a character rolls they have to score at least one success on their dicepool. If they do, add any Bonus to the roll. If they fail to do so? No bonus successes. To keep those bonuses from becoming overwhelming a character may not add more bonus successes to a roll than their dicepool for that roll. Dicepool of 7? Max 7 bonus successes from any combination of effects. Multiple Bonuses of the same basic origin do not stack; you get one Charm bonus, one equipment bonus and so on. Always use the highest that applies.

No, what about penalties? I'm willing to allow two types of penalties; penalties to the dicepool and penalties to the success total. This is the old internal/external divide from 2e and I kind of like that. Specifically a dicepool penalty should be referred to as an Internal Penalty. Internal Penalties are meant to represent afflictions that have been applied to a character; wounds, emotional/social influences, stress, fatigue and deprivation can cause internal penalties. Each internal penalty would reduce the dicepool by a certain amount. To prevent having too many modifiers apply I would use a simple rule: Only the highest internal penalty applies, ignore all others. Have a -3 wound penalty and -1 fatigue penalty and -5 emotional penalty? You get a -5. If your dicepool is reduced to 0 you automatically fail.

External penalties are meant to represent the Difficulty of an action. In this effect they completely replace standard difficulty. There will never be a term used as Difficulty in the system. Only external penalties apply. You subtract an external penalty from the rolled successes after applying bonus successes. If they reduce the result to 0 successes or less, you fail. In some cases, if you have a sufficiently 'negative' success you fail really badly. Like Bonuses you apply any that apply to the roll. Like bonuses, multiple penalties of the same type do not stack; you get one Charm penalty, one environmental penalty, and so on.

I'm up in the air about having a fixed target number or allowing some effects to influence it. I prefer reducing complexity as much as possible, but futzing around with TNs shouldn't be so major a change on a roll by roll basis.

Coming soon whenever I have spare time to expand on it:

Why Exalted suffers because it is designed to emulate fighting games and should instead be based on MMORPGs and how to make every activity a Group Activity.
 
Got into a disagreement with a friend over how broadly applicable Yozi Excellencies are. Started to use the Ebon Dragon Excellency as an example, only for him to flat-out contradict me about what it said – infuriated at the sheer impudence this fibber was displaying, I flicked through my book, triumphantly thrust my finger at the relevant section, and then dynamically apologised for misremembering.

So here's a rewrite of his Excellency to let me sneakily stalemate any further arguments by saying "oh no I'm using my homebrew":


The Shadow of All Things is empty and hollow, forced to assemble false identities from lies and mimickry. Neither dead nor truly a creature of the living world, he is enamoured with tragedy, finding beauty in doom and despair and the corruption of greatness. He delights in undermining virtue and self-image through fear and temptation, peering into the dark heart of each star to uncover their hidden desires, and will sometimes offer poisoned aid to ensure that he snuffs them out at their brightest. His greatest gifts are secrets, for the Ebon Dragon is drawn to forbidden things, and conceals comfort while unveiling horrid truths. He prefers to act with subtlety and misdirection, to ensure the mislaid blame causes further calamity, and so this Charm cannot enhance a course of action rooted in blatant brute force.

The Ultimate Darkness is self-indulgent and without conscience, pursuing his own disturbing pleasures in lieu of any greater cause. Indeed, it is his nature to mock and maliciously question such structures, exposing weaknesses and defying accepted mores. He cannot abide being restrained, whether by prison walls or laws, and as a result this Excellency can always support criminal actions and attempts to escape from immediate imprisonment. However, the Infernal cannot assist another character unless doing so would profit him at least as much, or sow the seeds for their downfall or disillusionment.
 
Last edited:
So remember when I said I am Done with Ex3? Well I am. I don't want to talk about it.

What I want to talk about is how to hack Exalted into a useful game system and avoiding the mistakes of the past and taking the strengths. So I will take some time in here to expound on what I would like to see in Exalted without really trying to go too far into creating an entire Not!Exalted game system. (Most of this is brainstorming, I'm far from wed to it.)

First: Storyteller or not?

Well, frankly, the problems with Storyteller are well known. The game system was originally designed to make shiving homeless people in a back alley a potentially dangerous encounter, which kind of falls apart when your system is supposed to emulate surfing down an avalanche fighting a volcano god as a low level encounter. I don't think the randomizer is really the problem, however. The d10 dicepools with target numbers and required numbers of 'successes' is as good a randomizer as any, the problem is a lot of unexamined legacy code from earlier forms of storyteller that have been assimilated in without examination. Scale is a big one, but other stuff is also in there. For instance the action economy has always been a big deal in Storyteller because in the very early ones you had to choose between attacking and defending.

So I have no problem with keeping the basic dicepool system, but other than that we can drop everything else and only include parts that make sense.

Second: Simple roll determination.

The basic idea of Storyteller is you add two (or more) traits to get your dicepool. This isn't bad and is relatively fast to figure out appropriate dicepools. However, after many years of playing the game I have discovered a fundamental truth. Rolling more than 10 dice sucks. It's possible to do it quickly, but most players don't want to have twenty or thirty dice, and counting successes on more dice is annoying unless you are trained for it. For that reason: No dicepool should be higher than 10 dice.

How do you accomplish this? All dicepools should be a combination of two traits, rated one to five. We'll use the standard Attribute/Skill split here, its a nice and simple one.

Okay, so how do you modify such rolls? This is usually where the heft of a game system comes in. Well, here is a where a lot of cruft of the last few editions has sneaked in. This is where I call No Stupid Dice Tricks. This is going to be pretty absolute. I hate stupid dice tricks. So no rerolls on getting a certain value, no double successes on a certain value, no botches on a certain value. Make the roll as simple as possible: If a die comes up equal to or greater than the target number, it is a success. Otherwise it isn't.

So modifiers; how should they work? Here I want to steal a bit from the new Sardonyx system stuff. In effect, all positive modifiers to a roll are applied as Bonus Successes. This is all modifiers. Charms? Equipment? Environmental? Bonus successes. The trick is that when a character rolls they have to score at least one success on their dicepool. If they do, add any Bonus to the roll. If they fail to do so? No bonus successes. To keep those bonuses from becoming overwhelming a character may not add more bonus successes to a roll than their dicepool for that roll. Dicepool of 7? Max 7 bonus successes from any combination of effects. Multiple Bonuses of the same basic origin do not stack; you get one Charm bonus, one equipment bonus and so on. Always use the highest that applies.

No, what about penalties? I'm willing to allow two types of penalties; penalties to the dicepool and penalties to the success total. This is the old internal/external divide from 2e and I kind of like that. Specifically a dicepool penalty should be referred to as an Internal Penalty. Internal Penalties are meant to represent afflictions that have been applied to a character; wounds, emotional/social influences, stress, fatigue and deprivation can cause internal penalties. Each internal penalty would reduce the dicepool by a certain amount. To prevent having too many modifiers apply I would use a simple rule: Only the highest internal penalty applies, ignore all others. Have a -3 wound penalty and -1 fatigue penalty and -5 emotional penalty? You get a -5. If your dicepool is reduced to 0 you automatically fail.

External penalties are meant to represent the Difficulty of an action. In this effect they completely replace standard difficulty. There will never be a term used as Difficulty in the system. Only external penalties apply. You subtract an external penalty from the rolled successes after applying bonus successes. If they reduce the result to 0 successes or less, you fail. In some cases, if you have a sufficiently 'negative' success you fail really badly. Like Bonuses you apply any that apply to the roll. Like bonuses, multiple penalties of the same type do not stack; you get one Charm penalty, one environmental penalty, and so on.

I'm up in the air about having a fixed target number or allowing some effects to influence it. I prefer reducing complexity as much as possible, but futzing around with TNs shouldn't be so major a change on a roll by roll basis.

Coming soon whenever I have spare time to expand on it:

Why Exalted suffers because it is designed to emulate fighting games and should instead be based on MMORPGs and how to make every activity a Group Activity.
If you say that you get all bonuses as Successes that count if and only if you already a score with your dice, you'll have problems at the low end: say you're a rolling for a mortal whose dice pool is 2 performing a simple task. Two dice is about right for someone rolling an attribute alone (untrained, but already with some basic knowledge to get rid of the extra untrained penalty [if you haven't got rid of it already]). Or for a slightly-trained but inept (clumsy, dull etc.) mortal. But suppose this is an easy task, such as driving without incident from home to work, so, say, +3 successes. Yet suddenly, you have a 0.6×0.6 = 36% chance of total failure, assuming Target Number 7. (This is of concern even in systems with finer granularity, e.g. where a pilot has a 1/46656 chance of crashing on each landing . . . which quickly adds up over the world.)
So you probably want some sort of mechanism for waiving rolls or making failure very very unlikely. In fact, it would be nice to have a system for aggregating many rolls into a single roll without adjusting the odds and for making fine adjustments to odds.
That is, assuming you want to be able to handle mortals (heroic or otherwise) and heroes doing something that isn't their forte. (Which maybe you don't care about.)

----

On the non-Storyteller front: I'm wondering if something like FATE Core could be used well for the Exalted sort of heroics while still retaining scaleability in both directions. Plus, the 'You succeed at a cost' outcome of rolls feel just right for Exalted.
 
If you say that you get all bonuses as Successes that count if and only if you already a score with your dice, you'll have problems at the low end: say you're a rolling for a mortal whose dice pool is 2 performing a simple task.

Here is a simple solution:

Dice are only rolled for not simple tasks. In fact, I was going to put that in on my discussion on single versus group action. I'll spell out the gist now:

If a task does not have dramatic conflict characters automatically succeed. The only resource expended is time. The amount of time is based on your dicepool.

For example; undramatic conflict crafting. If you decide to make a sword and you have any dice in Craft you automatically make a sword. This takes (some interval of time)/Craft dicepool. Bam, sword.
 
Here is a simple solution:

Dice are only rolled for not simple tasks. In fact, I was going to put that in on my discussion on single versus group action. I'll spell out the gist now:

If a task does not have dramatic conflict characters automatically succeed. The only resource expended is time. The amount of time is based on your dicepool.

For example; undramatic conflict crafting. If you decide to make a sword and you have any dice in Craft you automatically make a sword. This takes (some interval of time)/Craft dicepool. Bam, sword.
The idea of having a diceless way to do stuff is certainly good. My only question is when does a task become dramatic? If I bet €1 that I can translate X pages of text in Y time, the task doesn't seem difficult . . . except when one or both of the languages I do not know or do not know well enough to write in. What would be really un-nice is to have a sudden jump between 36-60% chance of failure and zero chance of failure. So dice bonuses are kinda nice to have.

Idea: what if you only turn dice into successes for pools greater than 10, automatically? Anything size 10 or less is rolled, but any excess dice get converted on a 2:1 ratio?
 
The idea of having a diceless way to do stuff is certainly good. My only question is when does a task become dramatic?

The basic problem of Exalted is it is designed as a emulation of the Epic Hero myth arc. The problem? Epic heros, action heroes, shounen fighting manga heroes? Almost all of them act alone.

So the game is balanced around individual action. The combat system is balanced around one on one duels. The crafting system is balanced around one super crafter. The stealth system is balanced around one spy infiltrating a fortress by himself.

What I want to do is turn this around: all game action should be based around the fact that Exalted is played as a group activity, with teams of heroes.

Towards that end, all scenes of conflict are things that require a team of character to overcome. The game is balanced around the fact you will have five Exalts to throw at any problem.

Conflicts are thus about... well, conflicts. Because most things that require a team of Exalts are going to be, well... significant opposition from other supernatural or major mundane forces. Those are dramatic conflicts.

Things that aren't worth having a group of Exalts take on are considered not worth rolling off with. If your actions don't form a dramatic conflict, don't bother rolling. Especially so if it involves only one character.
 
The basic problem of Exalted is it is designed as a emulation of the Epic Hero myth arc. The problem? Epic heros, action heroes, shounen fighting manga heroes? Almost all of them act alone.

So the game is balanced around individual action. The combat system is balanced around one on one duels. The crafting system is balanced around one super crafter. The stealth system is balanced around one spy infiltrating a fortress by himself.

What I want to do is turn this around: all game action should be based around the fact that Exalted is played as a group activity, with teams of heroes.

Towards that end, all scenes of conflict are things that require a team of character to overcome. The game is balanced around the fact you will have five Exalts to throw at any problem.

Conflicts are thus about... well, conflicts. Because most things that require a team of Exalts are going to be, well... significant opposition from other supernatural or major mundane forces. Those are dramatic conflicts.

Things that aren't worth having a group of Exalts take on are considered not worth rolling off with. If your actions don't form a dramatic conflict, don't bother rolling. Especially so if it involves only one character.
I'm all in favour of making campaigns in general a cooperative affair. However, some tasks are meant to be done by one or two circlemates, while others are meant for the whole group.

When our sorceress was banishing a second-circle dæmon, my character tried to join in on the action by emotionally supporting her, while our samurai-Twlilight went with a katana after things the dæmon cared about in order to cause a distraction. That's a teamwork scene.
OTOH, when said samurai was disarming a tainted essence bomb (after we collectively defeated all the enemies trying to set us up [said] bomb), it was a one-man task and any one of us interfering would only make things worse. Or when my character followed an agent of Thorns through half of Nexus. These are scene where teamwork is not an option and/or will make things worse.

Sometimes it's because the task only has place for a limited number of contributors. Sometimes it's because the competence difference between the knows and the know-nots is so great that the latter will only cause harm.

----

One thing that I feel canonical Exalted is lacking for encouraging teamwork is freeform transferrable stunts. The sort where A does a Stunt and rolls something to transfer the bonus to B, even in cases where A and B use very different attribute/ability sets. The canonical teamwork rules are kinda unimpressive for that task, alas.
 
Tranquilizing Pellucid Chime
Cost
: 3m or 3m, 1wp; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Touch
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Factual Determination Analysis
The denizens of Creation overflow with irrelevant impulses that pollute the mind and muddy the proper discourse the Principle of Hierarchy. This will not stand. This charm unleashes a subtle crystal chime reverberating through the target's mind, completely clears all emotion they are currently experiencing, restoring them to their normal emotional state. This doesn't affect virtue rolls, merely making the target behave rationally. The Warlock can target herself with this charm. With Essence 3, by spending a point of willpower, this charm may lose the touch keyword and gains the Obvious keyword, affecting everyone that can perceive it.
I feel like this needs a roll to take hold. Maybe roll Willpower + [Manipulation or Wits] or something like that against the target's MDV?

One thing that I feel canonical Exalted is lacking for encouraging teamwork is freeform transferrable stunts. The sort where A does a Stunt and rolls something to transfer the bonus to B, even in cases where A and B use very different attribute/ability sets. The canonical teamwork rules are kinda unimpressive for that task, alas.
What would you think of having teammates' threshold successes add an equal number of dice to the main actor's dicepool? This would go well with turning dice over 10 into successes.
 
Last edited:
I feel like this needs a roll to take hold. Maybe roll Willpower + [Manipulation or Wits] or something like that against the target's MDV?
I don't think that the charm necessarily needs a roll. Emotion effects do not provide bonuses. I see the charm as something to force some person that is being obstinate or to disperse a mob and force them to behave. Originally there was a roll, [social attribute + Presence or Performance plus Essence Sux], but I felt there was no need to actually roll dice.
 
I don't think that the charm necessarily needs a roll. Emotion effects do not provide bonuses. I see the charm as something to force some person that is being obstinate or to disperse a mob and force them to behave. Originally there was a roll, [social attribute + Presence or Performance plus Essence Sux], but I felt there was no need to actually roll dice.
I think that it shouldn't just autosucceed. Emotion effects are pretty good at sustaining themselves.
 
I'm sad that I don't like Exalted very much anymore. I miss the love I used to feel. Its absence creates a phantom pain, a bitter nostalgia. I don't know how to mourn this loss, when Exalted remains. The death I mourn is within me.

uh I mean GIVE BREAD
 
But someone who's a good general surely should be able to get by with just Dawn skills?
Oh, absolutely. They can not merely get by, but truly excel. It's just that if they want to be the absolute best they are going to have to broaden their horizons in some way. Lore is the obvious choice for a pure strategist, but it could just as easily be that he learns Celestial Circle Sorcery or masters Crane style to more directly protect his soldiers

Given how broad skills are in Exalted (e.g. Lore covering essentially everything from physics to history, Ride being used for horses and for mechanical wings etc.), one would hope that War covers the relevant, military and militarily-applicable parts of history.
It may, but you should also consider that Lore is no longer nearly so broad for a particular character. A general with Lore(warfare) will know very different things than a scholar with Lore(mathematics). This is represented by a higher difficulty for topics outside your area of expertise. This is a huge deal for a mortal, but not nearly so daunting for a Solar. Regardless, Prophet of Seventeen Cycles builds on an understanding of history and physical law, which is very solidly an application of Lore.
 
Last edited:
@Aaron Peori :i don't know if it will interest you, but i remember someone on this forum linking this, a roll and keep analysis of Exalted 2E.(Only Normal traits and excellencies.)


Maybe you can gain some insight to fix the number of dices/success rate?
 
Last edited:
It creates an undesirable metagame situation in that it encourages PCs to be built largely similar (particularly in the more cerebral campaigns like those I lately run and recently played in), and usually means that you need to optimize hard if you want to have an area in which you are significantly better than the party average with more-or-less the same IQ level while not wasting points. IQ being underpriced for generalists is not news, it's mostly the recognized consensus of SJGF. The problem is aggravated by the fact that as a Man-to-Man descendant, GURPS has a certain lack in the number of independent mental attributes.

I don't really see a system that accidentally encourages players to make mechanically similar characters as a significant problem in of itself. It may not be the most desirable state, since it doesn't encourage attribute-diversity in characters, but it doesn't result in an outside-the-game situation where a player is basically disconnected from the game because their character has no meaningful way to interact with the problem/scene. The sit-in-a-corner problem, or as I like to call it, the Decker/Rigger Problem, harms the players in trying to play the game. The One True Build problem (here being that IQ-geniuses are the best), meanwhile, just makes large parts of the system superfluous[1].

[1] It also creates the possibility that someone walks into a character-creating trap and ends up with a character strictly inferior to everyone else by not maxing out IQ, but that's a specific problem that can be avoided in a generalist-encouraging system. (I like GURPS, but Lethe the system is full of weird flaws.)
 
I'm pretty sure they have. It's just that they consider getting the Essence 3 charms immediately to be the most significant benefit. While I want E5 War charms, I can't really disagree. The essence 5 tricks are nice, but most of them require huge amounts of specialization. They also can't really compensate for not starting with character-defining charms like Worshipful Lackey Acquisition or Deadly Predator Method.
Well, on the off chance that you might be right here, I charted it out ignoring E4 and E5 Charms (because that would at least mean they intentionally designed it, even if it was a stupid decision).

And the value of different Supernal choices, whether taking into account E2 + E3 Charms, or just E3 Charms, is still immensely lopsided. I maintain my assertion that they clearly just didn't bother.
 
Back
Top