General Exalted Thread

Vanigo · Oct 26, 2015

notthepenguins said:
Really? The fact that Swordy McSword will still have room to buy more charms in his field long after General von General has run out doesn't matter?

Yes. That is what I'm saying. Because by the time General von General runs out of War charms to buy, he's already E3, and he can start grabbing E3 goodies from other charmtrees! Maybe he wants the good E3 Presence charms to help inspire the troops? Or Melee charms to lead from the front with? Or some Dodge charms if he's worried about snipers? He's E3; he can get the big prizes from every charmtree now! His supernal choice barely matters anymore! Now, if for some bizarre reason he was obliged to only buy War charms, he'd have something to complain about, but he's not.

And honestly, 17 War charms is a massive investment when you only have 30 total.

Are you seriously arguing that there being very little to gain from Supernal War is made better by the fact that you'll naturally unlock E3 Charms -- the pinnacle benefits of War -- around the time you spend enough XP to get E3 Charms?

Or in other words, arguing that Supernal War not giving much isn't a problem because it's actually even worse than that?

No... there's plenty to gain from Supernal War. You get a few E3 war charms at chargen, and you can pick up more of them early on, too. You can go deep in War instead of going broad. Even getting E2 Tiger Warrior Training ten sessions earlier than you otherwise could is a pretty substantial benefit; Tiger Warrior Training is amazing. Your Supernal choice is super important at E1, very important at E2, and kinda important at E3. Supernal War not giving as much as the other abilities isn't a problem because it still gives enough that even if you focus on War as hard as you reasonably can (because sinking every charm into the same ability would just be stupid) you won't run out until it doesn't really matter anymore.

notthepenguins · Oct 26, 2015

Vanigo said:
Yes. That is what I'm saying. Because by the time General von General runs out of War charms to buy, he's already E3, and he can start grabbing E3 goodies from other charmtrees! Maybe he wants the good E3 Presence charms to help inspire the troops? Or Melee charms to lead from the front with? Or some Dodge charms if he's worried about snipers? He's E3; he can get the big prizes from every charmtree now! His supernal choice barely matters anymore! Now, if for some bizarre reason he was obliged to only buy War charms, he'd have something to complain about, but he's not.

This is such an insanely out of touch response I'm honestly awed.

Vanigo said:
Your Supernal choice is super important at E1, very important at E2, and kinda important at E3. Supernal War not giving as much as the other abilities isn't a problem because it still gives enough that even if you focus on War as hard as you reasonably can (because sinking every charm into the same ability would just be stupid) you won't run out until it doesn't really matter anymore.

Ah, I see. So "good design" is expanding the chargen minigame so you have to choose between "useful in the early game" and "useful in the late game," on purpose.

How have I never thought of this? Truly, a world of discovery has opened up to me.

azoicennead · Oct 26, 2015

notthepenguins said:
Really? The fact that Swordy McSword will still have room to buy more charms in his field long after General von General has run out doesn't matter?

This is actually a less obvious but still significant problem, which is pretty apparent in 2.5e with Solar Hero Style and Solar Melee.
Let's say Swordy McSword is focused on Melee (with his sword), which has 30 charms. Axeman Jones is focused on Thrown (with his throwing axe), which has 10. Axeman Jones only has to spend 80xp to have every charm for his fighting style. That's great, right? Assuming each charm has equal average value, no. It isn't.

In 2.5e, Thrown was full of useful charms. Joint-Wounding Attack, Observer-Deceiving Attack, Cascade of Cutting Terror... Good shit. There are 20 official charms*.
Archery also has a lot of useful charms, with a total of 19 official charms.
Melee was equally full of useful charms! Bulwark Stance, Fivefold Bulwark Stance, Hungry Tiger Technique, Iron Raptor Technique, One Weapon, Two Blows... It also got a lot more expansion. There are 44 official charms*.

The end result of this is that while a character focusing on Archery or Thrown has to invest elsewhere after 19 or 20 charms, a character focusing on Melee still has more than half the tree (which is full of really powerful shit like Final Sunset Stance and the Perfect Blade Aegis line, but that's a separate problem) to buy after the same investment.
So while @samdamandias is probably going to run out of Archery charms to buy for Serpent before he runs out of experience, I still haven't even bought IMM, Perfect Blade Aegis, One Weapon, Two Blows, or Iron Whirlwind Attack for Three Candles - and this is Dr. Murderblender, who is so heavily combat specced challenging her requires wrecking the rest of the circle.

When charms are of equal quality, a larger charm tree creates more room for improvement, making that tree a better resource investment.

* These counts do not include general charms - i.e. anything with (Ability), like Infinite (Ability) Mastery.

Vanigo · Oct 27, 2015

notthepenguins said:
This is such an insanely out of touch response I'm honestly awed.

Oh, sure, go ad hominem on me.

Ah, I see. So "good design" is expanding the chargen minigame so you have to choose between "useful in the early game" and "useful in the late game," on purpose.

How have I never thought of this? Truly, a world of discovery has opened up to me.

Er, not really. "Useful in the late game" is a very minor factor, because by the late game, most of the stuff you'd want it for is available anyway. I mean, yes, War would be a slightly better Supernal choice if there were some E4-5 charms there, but it's such a minor factor by then that it's not worth worrying so much about.

azoicennead said:
This is actually a less obvious but still significant problem, which is pretty apparent in 2.5e with Solar Hero Style and Solar Melee.
Let's say Swordy McSword is focused on Melee (with his sword), which has 30 charms. Axeman Jones is focused on Thrown (with his throwing axe), which has 10. Axeman Jones only has to spend 80xp to have every charm for his fighting style. That's great, right? Assuming each charm has equal average value, no. It isn't.

...

Well, okay, but do you really want to monofocus on one ability like that? Like, even if you only cared about combat, wouldn't you want to branch out into other trees? General von General certainly doesn't want to focus on War too much; he needs to be decent with a [weapon of choice] himself, and he needs a social package so he can actually keep his army together.

I mean, I guess it'll still become an issue some fifty sessions down the line, but I'm willing to go ahead and call that much less important than the first twenty-five for the simple reason that a big fraction of games won't get that far.

(Also it's much less of an issue in E3 since the smallest tree is War with 17 charms.)

notthepenguins · Oct 27, 2015

Vanigo said:
Well, okay, but do you really want to monofocus on one ability like that?

He literally just explained how he is actually doing that in a game right now.

Imrix · Oct 27, 2015

Vanigo said:
Well, okay, but do you really want to monofocus on one ability like that? Like, even if you only cared about combat, wouldn't you want to branch out into other trees? General von General certainly doesn't want to focus on War too much; he needs to be decent with a [weapon of choice] himself, and he needs a social package so he can actually keep his army together.

He does? Oh, I guess that torpedoes my long-standing desire to play the strategist on the hill who leads armies to victory with absolute tactical and strategic supremacy, rather than being yet another shounen hero who leads from the front with hot-blooded speeches.

A shame.

azoicennead · Oct 27, 2015

Vanigo said:
Well, okay, but do you really want to monofocus on one ability like that?

azoicennead said:
I still haven't even bought IMM, Perfect Blade Aegis, One Weapon, Two Blows, or Iron Whirlwind Attack for Three Candles - and this is Dr. Murderblender, who is so heavily combat specced challenging her requires wrecking the rest of the circle.

I mean... Obviously yes. I've done that.
I've dabbled in other areas, but generally in any situation where I can make combat a viable method of achieving success, I win.

Like, even if you only cared about combat, wouldn't you want to branch out into other trees? General von General certainly doesn't want to focus on War too much; he needs to be decent with a [weapon of choice] himself, and he needs a social package so he can actually keep his army together.

See above about dabbling. She's generally not much more impressive than a skilled mortal, but she's very broadly competent. And since I'm satisfied with her combat competence (because, as mentioned, combat is basically an "I Win" button against most opponents due to my heavy investment), I'm free to spend my next few hundred experience on things like buffing up my social abilities and I can reasonably expect to remain competitive in fights until I get finish buying the combat stuff I want.

(Also it's much less of an issue in E3 since the smallest tree is War with 17 charms.)

If you're going to shorten Third Edition, please use either Ex3 or 3e, because you just used the same thing to refer to Essence. This makes it a lot easier to read what you're saying.

Vanigo said:
You get a few E3 war charms at chargen

"It's less of an issue" doesn't really mean much, because I didn't actually try to compare the most egregious examples of small and large charmsets (and the largest of 3e's charmsets are even larger than 2e's Solar Melee set). Hell, I wasn't even commenting on how major the problem is in 3e, just pointing out that it obviously exists, and that given equal quality charms a larger charmset does translate into a more effective character after a certain point.

Imrix said:
He does? Oh, I guess that torpedoes my long-standing desire to play the strategist on the hill who leads armies to victory with absolute tactical and strategic supremacy, rather than being yet another shounen hero who leads from the front with hot-blooded speeches.

A shame.

Being competent with a weapon means he doesn't just fall over if someone manages to attack him directly, and running a military operation requires a lot of politicking. Those are entirely reasonable things to buy for the concept you described. You want a general who can defend themselves from attacks and can convince a member of the opposing army to open the gates of the city he's laid siege to.

Imrix · Oct 27, 2015

azoicennead said:
You want a general who can defend themselves from attacks and can convince a member of the opposing army to open the gates of the city he's laid siege to.

Mm, no, I kinda don't. I mean, there are practical reasons to do that, but the character I'm interested in playing is somebody whose answer to personal combat is to have very good bodyguards. Politicking and persuading opposing commanders are both sensible maybes.

azoicennead · Oct 27, 2015

Imrix said:
Mm, no, I kinda don't. I mean, there are practical reasons to do that, but the character I'm interested in playing is somebody whose answer to personal combat is to have very good bodyguards. Politicking and persuading opposing commanders are both sensible maybes.

Which doesn't make you jumping to the conclusion that a general who is socially skilled and competent in direct combat must be meant to lead from the front any less wrong.
(Not being competent in direct combat is a great way to make that work keeping your army together a lot harder, by the way.)

horngeek · Oct 27, 2015

Imrix said:
Mm, no, I kinda don't. I mean, there are practical reasons to do that, but the character I'm interested in playing is somebody whose answer to personal combat is to have very good bodyguards. Politicking and persuading opposing commanders are both sensible maybes.

I don't think that was ever a character type Exalted was really meant to support, though.

Jon Chung · Oct 27, 2015

horngeek said:
I don't think that was ever a character type Exalted was really meant to support, though.

It really should. Sun Tzu, Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang, Julius Caesar, Lord Nelson, Napoleon, Admiral Yi etc are all relevant.

Shyft · Oct 27, 2015

horngeek said:
I don't think that was ever a character type Exalted was really meant to support, though.

No, it was- they just spent a fair amount of time ensuring 'Lead from the front' was conceptually viable. The rule of thumb with Exalted aesthetics is "Can you do this in a cool manner? If Yes, enable it. If No, make it cool then let people do it."

Dynamesmouse · Oct 27, 2015

Made a few Swlihn charms.

Tranquilizing Pellucid Chime
Cost: 3m or 3m, 1wp; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Touch
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Factual Determination Analysis
The denizens of Creation overflow with irrelevant impulses that pollute the mind and muddy the proper discourse the Principle of Hierarchy. This will not stand. Roll Intelligence + Presence or Performance if attacking a group with the upgrade + Essence automatic successes.This charm unleashes a subtle crystal chime reverberating through the target's mind, completely clearing any emotion effects (not including limit break) they are currently experiencing, restoring them to their normal emotional state. This doesn't affect virtue rolls, merely making the target behave rationally. The Warlock can target herself with this charm. With Essence 3, by spending a point of willpower, this charm may lose the touch keyword and gains the Obvious keyword, affecting everyone that can perceive it.

Memetic Innoculation Procedure
Cost: 10m, 1wp; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: Sorcerous
Duration: (Essence) months
Prerequisite Charms: Tranquilizing Pellucid Chime
The Principle of Hierarchy has found out the hard way how what damage an idea can do and so prevents an insidious spread before it can start. This charm targets a Social group the Warlock has spent a few hours interacting with in the past week. The Warlock chooses an intimacy and context. Any attempt to create that specific intimacy automatically will fail and any roll off benefits from(Essence) automatic successes. In addition, all members of that social group increase their MDVs by the Warlocks (Essence) against any attempt to instill a similar intimacy, as the intimacy seems uninteresting or simply wrong.

---

TPC is basically a supernatural "calm down" power that I felt would serve as a nice prereq for MIP.

I mostly wanted MIP to exist because I don't like the side effects of Cecelyne's locust plague charms. That city wide intimacy of reverence towards the concept of the "the strong rule the weak" kinda warps community spirit a bit. Plus, many Infernal charms spread intimacies that could be problematic for a Defiler, so it also helps with that.

Anasurimbor · Oct 27, 2015

Imrix said:
He does? Oh, I guess that torpedoes my long-standing desire to play the strategist on the hill who leads armies to victory with absolute tactical and strategic supremacy, rather than being yet another shounen hero who leads from the front with hot-blooded speeches.

Absolutely not. While it would be best if he can defend himself serviceably, it's not strictly necessary. You'll want someone charismatic to keep morale up, but it certainly doesn't have to be him. In fact, it would be better if it isn't, because then they can boost his critical strategic maneuver rolls. He'll also want a good bureaucrat to keep things organized and supplied, but again that doesn't have to be him.

A true strategic genius must understand many diverse subjects beyond the basic essentials of warfare. He must be a scholar, understanding history, mathematics, physics, geography, and more. He'll want at least a half-dozen Lore charms to leverage this knowledge in truly terrifying ways on both the tactical and strategic scale.

azoicennead · Oct 27, 2015

Anasurimbor said:
He'll want at least a half-dozen Lore charms to leverage this knowledge in truly terrifying ways on both the tactical and strategic scale.

Or, y'know, just have good Lore, rather than making everything you do based on charms.
Like... What you described is basically just stunt fodder and the source of some situational bonuses. You declare that this battle is similar to the Battle of the Five Armies, and your study of that battle has given you some sort of insight.
Tada.
Your understanding of history at work.

vicky_molokh · Oct 27, 2015

Vanigo said:
Er, not really. "Useful in the late game" is a very minor factor, because by the late game, most of the stuff you'd want it for is available anyway. I mean, yes, War would be a slightly better Supernal choice if there were some E4-5 charms there, but it's such a minor factor by then that it's not worth worrying so much about.

Any level of 'more useful in early vs. mid vs. late game' is a potentially annoying design. I'm saying this coming from a system where there are no point buckets (Attributes vs. Abilities vs. Virtues) and no XP vs. BP separation (all costs are flat), and there's still a certain issue of early/late-game prioritisation present.

Now, over the course of a single year (which is easily 200+ XP), things like 2e Caste/Favourite discounts on charms (and to a lesser extent skills) add up for perhaps a 20% economy plus numerous opportunities to be able to spend your XP in the limited downtime allowed by the situation. 20% doesn't seem like a lot, but that's not factoring in such things as BP vs. XP optimisation (which usually means you start early game with lower skills and may suffer for it a bit). I'm currently not sure whether my long-term plan of choosing favoured Mêlée over Integrity was a wise one; but if someone made an outright poor choice out of a willingness to e.g. favourite an early-game skill that she no longer touches with XP past the early game, that's a problem that cannot be fixed at all.

And yes, not all campaigns last into late game. That's actually another problem, because guessing wrong whether or not a campaign will be cancelled prematurely is prone to give people wrong choices and thus a less satisfying time playing a given PC.

vicky_molokh · Oct 27, 2015

Anasurimbor said:
A true strategic genius must understand many diverse subjects beyond the basic essentials of warfare. He must be a scholar, understanding history, mathematics, physics, geography, and more. He'll want at least a half-dozen Lore charms to leverage this knowledge in truly terrifying ways on both the tactical and strategic scale.

So, in Ex3e, Lore is still a must-have thing even for someone who's supposed to be all about a different skill (War)?

Yzarc · Oct 27, 2015

How many new Exalted are there? Robert Vance just said that the "Other Exalted" pics included two "Lunar Foils" and the second "Sidereal foil".

When the hell did so many Exalted types show up and how did I miss it?

EDIT:

Here is a list.

Solars
Lunars
Sidereals
Dragon-Blooded
Abyssals

Liminals
Exigents
Getimians
Alchemicals
Infernals

[Lunar foil]
[Lunar foil]
[Sidereal foil]
[Chosen of the Depths]
[Spoken]

Anasurimbor · Oct 27, 2015

azoicennead said:
Or, y'know, just have good Lore, rather than making everything you do based on charms.
Like... What you described is basically just stunt fodder and the source of some situational bonuses. You declare that this battle is similar to the Battle of the Five Armies, and your study of that battle has given you some sort of insight.
Tada.
Your understanding of history at work.

That's the base level of application. Beyond merely providing excellent stunt fodder, such things can explicitly add various bonuses to the strategic warfare roll. But the mere mundane application of even a legendary scholarly intellect pales before what that same intellect can achieve when amplified by Solar essence. With Prophet of Seventeen Cycles, a Solar Strategist can virtually predict the future and see how to bend it to his goals. He can do things like enable his fleets to make record time by charting otherwise dangerous courses while the enemy ships that attempt to pursue are wracked by storms.

Giygas · Oct 27, 2015

The Getimians are probably the Sidereals Foil.

And Oramus and The Boar that twist the sky(Currently doesn't remember the name of the Yozi) have tried to create their own exalted, but failed/didn't like the result/something else happened.(It was not really clear)

So the Chosen of Oramus and The Boar are probably the Lunar Foils, or the Lunar Foil.(If the unfortunate event caused them to become only one exalted type.)

Yzarc · Oct 27, 2015

2 Lunar Foils and Two Sidereal foils including Getimians apparently.

The list is in the first post.

notthepenguins · Oct 27, 2015

Anasurimbor said:
With Prophet of Seventeen Cycles, a Solar Strategist can virtually predict the future and see how to bend it to his goals. He can enable his fleets to make record time by charting otherwise dangerous courses while the enemy ships that attempt to pursue are wracked by storms.

Uhhh... Prophet of Seventeen Cycles, mechanically, just gives people situational penalties. It's not the Impossible Game Changer you're talking about (also, it doesn't even define how large those should be; lol, what is clear design again?).

Anasurimbor · Oct 27, 2015

vicky_molokh said:
So, in Ex3e, Lore is still a must-have thing even for someone who's supposed to be all about a different skill (War)?

It is pretty ridiculous how a would-be general who dreams of being absolutely supreme would be well-served by mastering the application of military history and geography. No one would ever do that. That's almost as bad as a swordsman(Melee) being forced to learn how to react quickly(Awareness) and absorb blows(Resistance) if he wants to be the best warrior in the world.

vicky_molokh · Oct 27, 2015

Anasurimbor said:
It is pretty ridiculous how a would-be general who dreams of being absolutely supreme would be well-served by mastering the application of military history and geography. No one would ever do that. That's almost as bad as a swordsman(Melee) being forced to learn how to react quickly(Awareness) and absorb blows(Resistance) if he wants to be the best warrior in the world.

There's a difference between the best swordsman and the best combatant. You can be the best swordsman, who fights only in competitions where points are scored, no lethal wounds are ever delivered, and the beginning of combats is clearly marked. Or you can be the best combatants with all the things you list.

But someone who's a good general surely should be able to get by with just Dawn skills? There's a reason people joke about military intelligence, and that is that being competent in the military does not have the sorts of requirements that one would expect from scientists and other academics (Lore), even though it's a cerebral requirement too. Given how broad skills are in Exalted (e.g. Lore covering essentially everything from physics to history, Ride being used for horses and for mechanical wings etc.), one would hope that War covers the relevant, military and militarily-applicable parts of history. For making a good general. Not for making someone who's equally good as a general as as an artilleryman as as a stormtrooper as as a military scout.

Also, I'm sorry that I'm causing waves of anger/annoyance. That was not my intention.

Sucal · Oct 27, 2015

Imrix said:
He does? Oh, I guess that torpedoes my long-standing desire to play the strategist on the hill who leads armies to victory with absolute tactical and strategic supremacy, rather than being yet another shounen hero who leads from the front with hot-blooded speeches.

A shame.

Dunno about you, but when I was planning that type of character, they were gonna be flinging spells from on top of that hill! (Spells like 'warding my army against arrows, or 'causing their horses to kneel over dead mid Calvary charge)

But yes, I would love some high essence war charms, even though it is cool that you could realistically master all the War Charms.

General Exalted Thread

Carbon-Based Life Form

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad

Carbon-Based Life Form

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Periodically Malevolent QM

Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad

Periodically Malevolent QM

Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad

Australian Dragon

=][=

Bzzzzzz

Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad

Posthuman spidery thingy.

Posthuman spidery thingy.

The Spark of Madness

Cutest Sawk i could find. Lucario is a nice extra.

The Spark of Madness

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Posthuman spidery thingy.

The Devil’s Cut