Too hard because by giving it as an explicit power of Eclipsealikes the game communicates that this is a thing only for them; there's no room for, say, a Dawn to meditate upon and master the battlemagic of a foe, or for a Twilight to wrest the arcane secrets of spirits from them through study and experimentation, or for a Day Caste Abyssal to murder his way through an Elemental Court, vampirically consuming wisps of soul-stuff until he can express their native magics. If you want to be Solar who masters strange and foreign magics, you have to be an Eclipse.

Well......technically speaking, this isn't true.

Power From Darkness can let you learn any Charms that an Eclipse could learn through their Anima. You just have to commit motes to said as opposed to paying XP and have to deal with an increased Limit Gain.

But it has it's own problems.
 
Okay.
I was looking at a copy of the Violet Bier of Sorrows errata, and I came across this:

Life-Severing Blow (pp. 183-184)
Cost: 5m; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK
Prerequisite Charms: Violet Bier of Sorrows Form

Replace the text of this Charm with the following:
Sighting a violet glimmer of the Essence of Endings in her enemy's soul, the Sidereal strikes through it to bring them closer to their death. Add (Essence) to the raw damage of an unarmed attack supplemented by this Charm. The same amount is also added to the minimum damage of the attack, granting it the Overwhelming tag.

A character reduced to their Incapacitated level by an attack supplemented with Life-Severing Blow can be unmade as a Shaping effect, killing them instantly and reducing their corpse to ash. Against mortals, even a single level of damage is sufficient to shape them dead.
Can anyone explain to me what this effect is supposed to do? Or who/what it's supposed to be used against?
Isn't killing an incapacitated enemy easy enough as it is?
 
Okay.
I was looking at a copy of the Violet Bier of Sorrows errata, and I came across this:


Can anyone explain to me what this effect is supposed to do? Or who/what it's supposed to be used against?
Isn't killing an incapacitated enemy easy enough as it is?
I think it's mean to be cool and thematic, like how the final black claw charm states that if you kill someone with it you tear out their heart.

I don't think it's meant to be mechanically advantageous.

Although it does handily leave no corpse, and thus no hungry ghost.
 
I think it's mean to be cool and thematic, like how the final black claw charm states that if you kill someone with it you tear out their heart.
I don't think it's meant to be mechanically advantageous.
Although it does handily leave no corpse, and thus no hungry ghost.
Oh.
I thought it was supposed to have a mechanical effect I was missing.
Thanks.
 
Can anyone explain to me what this effect is supposed to do? Or who/what it's supposed to be used against?
Isn't killing an incapacitated enemy easy enough as it is?

When someone has their Incapacitated Level filled, they aren't dead.

They've still got all of their Dying Health Levels to go through.

This skips those levels and kills them outright which can prevent an enemy's allies from saving them or whatever.

Certain people, like Lunars and IIRC Infernals, also have magic that can let them keep going even after their Incapacitated box is checked off. Granted, those people also probably have Shaping Defenses that this would bounce off, but you never know.
 
Okay.
I was looking at a copy of the Violet Bier of Sorrows errata, and I came across this:

Can anyone explain to me what this effect is supposed to do? Or who/what it's supposed to be used against?
Isn't killing an incapacitated enemy easy enough as it is?
It's in there for thematic purposes, like Chloe said.
Similar things can be found in some Infernal charms, in addition to Black Claw Style.

You did kind of miss that it insta-gibs mortals, though. Overwhelming 4 gives you an 87% chance (on a hit) to kill anyone lacking Hardness, regardless of soak. Not exactly the most powerful effect, but it's useful.
(Oh, you have 100 soak? I'll disintegrate you with a punch.)
 
Certain people, like Lunars and IIRC Infernals, also have magic that can let them keep going even after their Incapacitated box is checked off. Granted, those people also probably have Shaping Defenses that this would bounce off, but you never know.
Yeah.
I considered this, but I thought that Shaping defenses at that level of twinkery would be mandatory.
You did kind of miss that it insta-gibs mortals, though.
No I didn't.
I just considered that if*checks* an Essence 3, Martial Arts 5 Exalt was spending 5 motes to kill a mortal, he was obviously doing something wrong.
Unless he suddenly somehow blundered into a Gunzosha unit without backup of his own, that is.
 
Personally, I consider balancing 2e Exalted a lost cause.

Maybe it's my D&D 3.5 experience talking, but I don't see game balance as really achievable from the developers side for any game as large and complex as D&D or Exalted. Game balance basically only works out as a gentle(wo)man's agreement between Players and GM. With large numbers of spells/charms/merits/whatevers, written by multiple devs, players determined to find loopholes will eventually succeed. Perfectly balancing such a large complex system is not really possible, and IMHO, not really worthwhile. Most players want a fun game and are willing to fix/patch over/ignore any broken mechanics if they come up.

TL;DR: People determined to powergame will usually find a way no matter what you do, from the dev side.
Balance isn't intended to stop powergamers determined to make themselves invincible.

It's intended to stop newbie players in a gaming group new to Exalted from walking into landmines and getting turned into mincemeat because they wanted to build a cool thematic character that turned out to be shit at actual combat, or from winding up 100xp behind their companions because they didn't know about traps in non-linear chargen, or from accidentally stumbling across something that makes it impossible for their ST to challenge them effectively, or from upsetting all the other players at the table by stripping away all their agency with a broken combo.

Balance isn't intended to stop powergamers determined to break the game. It's intended to stop newbie game groups from being broken by it.
 
TL;DR: People determined to powergame will usually find a way no matter what you do, from the dev side.

So why is that an argue to not scatter landmines and easy exploits over the game, rather than making it hard and requiring deliberate breaking? Especially with exception-based design like this, where a sensible designer will set up matters so they have to do as little cross-checking as possible and thus things like PPE and the Eclipse anima are stupidity incarnate because they mean every single non-Solar charm has to be balanced with the Solar Charmset.

And that's why TAW went "fuck that shit" and tagged the entire Witch charmset as Native. Because fuck that shit, we weren't prepared to balance our Lunar Charms on "but what if an Eclipse or a Moonshadow or a Fiend learns it?". It's enough work balancing Charms against just a single splat - making any non-Solaroid splat have to balance against three more Charmsets is what the French call "utterly moronic".
 
Look, I understand that for you this is about thematics and would make everything neater and less messy and more aesthetically pleasing.

But azoicennead does have a point about how it comes off as telling other people how to play their game.

Then with all due respect he is playing the wrong game.

You want a game where you can do anything you want? Play a point buy effects based game like GURPS or Hero or Mutants and Masterminds.

The entire game of Exalted is based around telling people how to play their game. It creates a setting for you, builds mechanics to emulate that setting and otherwise goes out of its way, again and again, to point out that the game is designed to play Exalted.

Nothing prevents azoicennead from playing the game any way he wants, but the corebook is not designed to make that easy. If we eliminated the Eclipse charmtheft tech from the game nothing prevents him from using it. He can use any houserules he wants.

But as game designers who have a singular vision the purpose of the Exalted game line is to tell you how to play the kinds of games Exalted was meant to play, and part of that is removing insanity like the Eclipse anima which causes massive mechanical and thematic bullshit in every form it has ever existed in.

And you have to keep in mind that often games are restricted to one splat even when the player doesn't necessarily like that splat's themes.

Things I can not play if I want to play an Exalted game: A Jedi KNight, a D&D Wizard, Superman, a Lensman, an asari biotic, a Twilight style vampire, an Eclipse Phase transhuman, etc etc.

Exalted isn't a kitchen sink game and is not designed to be kitchen sink compatible. It is not Rifts. It does not want to be Rifts. Or Torg. Or anything else.

When you play Exalted you set yourself to play a very narrow range of character concepts. If your GM is insisting on running an all Solars campaign and you don't want to play a Solar? Well... tough. I wouldn't come into a D&D campaign insisting I get to play a Jedi Knight either. Games have limits.

If you want to work out, between you, some sort of compromise, that's okay. But that isn't something that should be built into the core rules of the game. The game should be designed to play a game of Exalted. The more you expand the focus, the more of a mess the game rules become until they stop working.

(Also, if you want every splat to stay neatly in theme, you should also be tossing out martial arts and sorcery spells.)

Some people have said we should do just that. But considering that we can do all our out-of-splat thematic we need with those two things I don't see why Eclipse is required. At the moment you have to balance three charm clouds. Adding another multiples the work required to balance by a factor of four.
 
I'm still trying t figure out why it was a good idea to give the Eclipse two anima powers, both the Oath Sanctifying and the charm steal bit, when the rest of the circle only have one.
 
The entire game of Exalted is based around telling people how to play their game.
The system telling me how to play the game is fine. That's literally the entire purpose of a game system. Likewise the GM, because they're the adjudicator for the rules.
People saying "no, that's wrongbadfun" because they don't like something included in the system isn't. That's what I was pointing out.
If you can't understand the difference between the system/GM saying "no, doing that is wrong" and someone on the internet giving unsolicited advice doing the same, I'm sorry.

Things I can not play if I want to play an Exalted game: A Jedi KNight, a D&D Wizard, Superman, a Lensman, an asari biotic, a Twilight style vampire, an Eclipse Phase transhuman, etc etc.
... If you can't make a Jedi or a biotic, you're not trying hard enough.
With a little bit of tweaking and a beamklave, my current character works as a Jedi (well, more as a Sith, but close enough). Actually, scratch that. Just a beamklave.
Biotics are easily done with Mind-Hand Manipulation and Principle-Invoking Onslaught.

Doesn't the errata'd Dawn Anima power consist of three abilities?
The Dawn anima has three effects with an obvious thematic link.
 
Balance isn't intended to stop powergamers determined to make themselves invincible.

It's intended to stop newbie players in a gaming group new to Exalted from walking into landmines and getting turned into mincemeat because they wanted to build a cool thematic character that turned out to be shit at actual combat, or from winding up 100xp behind their companions because they didn't know about traps in non-linear chargen, or from accidentally stumbling across something that makes it impossible for their ST to challenge them effectively, or from upsetting all the other players at the table by stripping away all their agency with a broken combo.

Balance isn't intended to stop powergamers determined to break the game. It's intended to stop newbie game groups from being broken by it.

So why is that an argue to not scatter landmines and easy exploits over the game, rather than making it hard and requiring deliberate breaking? Especially with exception-based design like this, where a sensible designer will set up matters so they have to do as little cross-checking as possible and thus things like PPE and the Eclipse anima are stupidity incarnate because they mean every single non-Solar charm has to be balanced with the Solar Charmset.

And that's why TAW went "fuck that shit" and tagged the entire Witch charmset as Native. Because fuck that shit, we weren't prepared to balance our Lunar Charms on "but what if an Eclipse or a Moonshadow or a Fiend learns it?". It's enough work balancing Charms against just a single splat - making any non-Solaroid splat have to balance against three more Charmsets is what the French call "utterly moronic".

Balancing all charms against each other is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY past the point of "landmines for newbies" IMO.

There are enough Landmines for newbies just in BP vs XP and flurries. The eclipse anima power is so far removed from "landmines for newbies" it's not even funny.

Yes, a game system should have some balance and not be full of landmines, but something as niche and underused as the Eclipse anima power is minini with regards to that concern. There are enough problems with just the solar charmset - eclipse charm stealing is at best, frosting on the cake.

Things I can not play if I want to play an Exalted game: A Jedi KNight, a D&D Wizard, Superman, a Lensman, an asari biotic, a Twilight style vampire, an Eclipse Phase transhuman, etc etc.

Bullshit. All of those, except the lensman, and maybe superman, are perfectly playable character concepts in exalted, if you're willing to put work into it.

Isn't the second eclipse power a consolation prize for being saddled with ride and sail?

I kinda assumed so.

EDIT:

I think my earlier post responding to Aaron didn't really communicate what I wanted to.

I would like an ideal-er exalted, where there are no Eclipse shenanigans, but I get to play Sidereal Chessmaster/behind-the-scenes-guy with battlefield management charmtech to help him overrun enemies with pasties when his convoluted plot inevitably blows up in his face. And another time, a Dragonblooded strike team leader with Dragon Blade Benificence and With one Mind, out there holding the line with her sworn brotherhood.

In real life, I get to play in maybe one exalted game, and it's Solars only, light on politics, and my fellow players cannot-into-cooperation half the time, never mind delving into ally-centric charmtech. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if as an Eclipse I could pick up Meditation on War to help my allies suck less at throwing knives? Thus allowing me to benefit them in combat without having to try and wrangle them into making more effective character building choices (and also giving me a great excuse to lecture them on tactics in character)? It's not like an Eclipse with MoW is horribly broken. And heck, making my allies more effective is actually in-theme for Eclipses - certainly more so than ALL THE SWORDING, which is where that XP is going otherwise - it is a combat heavy game.
 
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... Eclipse Charmsharing is horrendously broken, and... okay, I have to ask here, if you want Solar ally-buffing, why not just... homebrew some Solar ally-buffing Charms? I mean, you said it yourself, it's totally in-theme for Zeniths and Eclipses. Heck, if you want a specific Lunar or Sidereal ally-buffing Charm, just take the raw mechanics, hit them a few times with a wrench, adjust for Solar balance and apply different fluff. That gets you the ally-buffing Charmtech you're interested in without also opening up the whole of, say, the Spirit Charmset to Solars and giving them access to things like Principle of Motion, or (god forbid) canon raksha Charms.
 
... Eclipse Charmsharing is horrendously broken, and... okay, I have to ask here, if you want Solar ally-buffing, why not just... homebrew some Solar ally-buffing Charms? I mean, you said it yourself, it's totally in-theme for Zeniths and Eclipses. Heck, if you want a specific Lunar or Sidereal ally-buffing Charm, just take the raw mechanics, hit them a few times with a wrench, adjust for Solar balance and apply different fluff. That gets you the ally-buffing Charmtech you're interested in without also opening up the whole of, say, the Spirit Charmset to Solars and giving them access to things like Principle of Motion, or (god forbid) canon raksha Charms.
That's a good plan, thanks for reminding me of that option. I'm not terribly confident in my ability to homebrew, but your "reworking" plan seems like it'd be okay. I honestly never really thought of that in the game in question, because we were having enough trouble teaching half the party basic exalted mechanics without adding new stuff.

as a note, Principle of Motion is Native, as of errata.
 
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