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General Exalted Thread

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Arguably everyone should have to plan, it's just that Solar Charms tend to make people stop thinking because after reading them, players and storytellers gloss over the elements around the charms.

Like, Stealing from Plain Sight Spirit means you need to get within [Essence] yards of your target. Even at Essence 5, that's 15 yards away. That's still like, 'hanging from the vents' or 'halfway through the laser traps' or something.

Invisible Statue Spirit for example also means you can't move (the action) while being Undetectable, so if you get caught in the middle of a hallway, someone could bump into you.

Again this comes down to some of the Borgstromancy trying to inform you 'how to play', and as ES points out for at least himself, there's not enough play with these Larceny charms. I personally see more play than he does, but I agree that it's poorly communicated.

Note that creating fun out of questionable or unreasonably written mechanics is not the same as it being Fixed or Good. I personally like Solar Larceny the way it is, but that doesn't mean it's invulnerable to critique it either.
 
Carrnage said:
This gives the lovely mental image of a mixed exalt group with everyone just charging off at the slightest provocation and the sidereal being the only sane man.

seriously though something that you can expect from a baseline human is part of every exalt type.
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That sounds like our group. only we don't have a Sidereal. I think @SerGregness is the closest we have to sanity.
 
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Carrnage said:
seriously though something that you can expect from a baseline human is part of every exalt type.
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Yeah, definitely copious amounts of sarcasm font should have been happening in that post. Maybe it'd have read better as "I mean, planning is for sidereals, right?"

Anyway, I submit this under 'nifty food for thought'. This song could be a Zenith's backstory:



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Matsci said:
That sounds like our group. only we don't have a Sidereal. I think @SerGregness is the closest we have to sanity.
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I think the reason @Matsci is hedging with 'closest to' is because I refuse to kowtow to asshole gods and elementals over minor details like 'has a full four dots of Essence over you', 'you're not a full combat build dumbass, so maybe don't get them pissed at you', and 'no, seriously, that's a Lesser Elemental Dragon'.
 
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EarthScorpion said:
Correct. It is in fact entirely my preference that you only get to no-sell someone who is not a member of the very limited range of inhabitants of Creation with comprehensive anti-Illusion defences, and if you're up against one of them you can't get away with just standing out in the open with no cover. And the Charm should therefore be balanced around that, and provide a separate, non-inapplicability-based defence which incentivises actually playing like you're in a stealth game.
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That's a valid preference, yes.

So you think that we shouldn't have an detective game, since detection should trump stealth, which means that the detective should automatically trump all attempts to conceal evidence, right?

You're choosing a side to win the contest here, regardless of which you pick you're shutting down half the game.

You know, like not trying to steal the gems when Velara the All-Seeing, Solar Savant of the Three Kingdoms is looking directly at them and maybe waiting until she's not in the same room and only her elite guard are present, and if you're getting into place to ambush a cruel Lunar tyrant, it might be a good idea to conceal yourself in the terrain or to disguise yourself as one of their adoring worshippers.
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What if I want to get into place to ambush the cruel Lunar tyrant by posing as his concubine? Since detection trumps disguise they will, obviously, see through all disguise automatically. I guess "pretend to be someone else" is just the kind of thing that people shouldn't expect to get away with except against extras in Exalted?
 
Nice false dichotomy there. No, really. I'm very impressed. I especially love how you took "anti-Illusion defences should be able to notice and counter things like 'you don't notice having your personal sceptre swiped while you're holding it'" and turned it into "no stealth attempt succeeds against any Exalt ever". Very impressive.

Not every Exalt is specialised in every field. If the cruel Lunar tyrant hasn't invested much in the way of Perception and you don't give them any reason to use an anti-Illusion defence, go for it. But if they've invested similarly to Velara the All-Seeing in "noticing things" then yeah, actually, trying to tackle them in their area of strength by sneaking up on them in disguise is a pretty boneheaded move and you're better off either subverting their real concubine and getting her to stab them or just kicking the door down with a bunch of goremauls (since they presumably won't have spent as much xp on combat if they're invested mega-heavily in Perception/Awareness).
 
Aaron Peori said:
What if I want to get into place to ambush the cruel Lunar tyrant by posing as his concubine? Since detection trumps disguise they will, obviously, see through all disguise automatically. I guess "pretend to be someone else" is just the kind of thing that people shouldn't expect to get away with except against extras in Exalted?
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You absolutely shouldn't be able to get away with using disguise/stealth stuff trivially in direct conflict with another Celestial who invested hard into anti-stealth measures, because of the disproportionate nature of what each entity is risking in the contest.

Look at the consequences of losing a rolloff for stealth/disguise vs awareness, for example. If the guy being snuck up on sees you, both you and your target are now alerted and presumably about to enter combat, and that is all that happens if you lose. If he doesn't see you, you win: you accomplish your objective (assuming that objective is not "assassinate Bob" thanks to the wonders of surprise negation). You get to steal whatever you were there to steal, kill whatever non-Bob, non-Exalted entities you like, sabotage whatever you were there to sabotage, and you leave while Bob stands there and fumes impotently.

Note that even if Bob can flawlessly penetrate your stealth or disguise the moment he is aware he needs to do so (eg, Eye of the Unconquered Sun), Bob's ability to do this hardly makes your investment pointless. The more stuff Bob has, the more investment Bob has in the setting (and not being a murderhobo) the easier you can take it away without him being able to do anything about it unless he's literally standing right there while you try it, because Bob's ability to negate your tricks only works if you're in his direct line of sight and he knows he needs to turn it on.
 
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Jon Chung said:
You absolutely shouldn't be able to get away with using disguise/stealth stuff trivially in direct conflict with another Celestial who invested hard into anti-stealth measures, because of the disproportionate nature of what each entity is risking in the contest.
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Both are risking the same amount if they have invested the same amount of resources into stealth/disguise and awareness respectively. If Detective has invested the same amount in Awareness/Investigation as Ninja has invested in Stealth/Disguise you are saying Detective automatically wins. What they've spent on Melee, War or Performance is irrelevant.

Look at the consequences of losing a rolloff for stealth/disguise vs awareness, for example. If the guy being snuck up on sees you, both you and your target are now alerted and presumably about to enter combat, and that is all that happens if you lose.
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...in a location where he has tactical superiority, otherwise why are you bothering with disguise? You don't sneak up on someone in a white room, Jon. You sneak up on them in the middle of their palace, or military camp, or otherwise in the a position where youo aren't wuilling to confront them directly.

And if your goal is something other than "kill him" you can loose a hell of a lot more. What if your goal is escape? Say, a Wyld Hunt is searching a city for you. If your Stealth automatically fails against Exalt-level awareness the Wyld Hunt does find you. Or the Deathknight or Infernal or whoever that is hunting you down. You can't evade his tracking either, because stealth/disguise automatically loses to awareness so any anti-tracking Charm automatically loses which means that a determined enough opponent will hunt you down eventually.

If you're caught you risk a hell of a lot more than just "a single combat". You risk revealing that you exist at all, which can change the way the opponent is acting. You risk drawing the attention of other entities that weren't interested. You reveal that you are, in fact, trying to accomplish a specific goal such as stealing something or killing someone. If you're army is waiting for you to steal the plans of the enemy so they can defend their village from an immenint attack you've failed to accomplish that and so on and so forth.
 
azoicennead said:
@Aaron Peori, nobody is saying things should automatically fail. People are saying they shouldn't automatically succeed.
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No, they are saying they should automatically fail.

See, if you want a system where the Solar shouldn't automatically succeed then we have that now. If a Solar evokes a Charm that renders detection Inapplicable then an opponent need only activate a Charm that renders his detection always Applicable. At this point you have two Charms engaged in a roll-off under the IOIF rules. You can even give an edge to one or the other by, say, assigning some arbitrary bonus to one or the other effect when the roll-off occurs.

This allows a Solar to automatically bypass mundane threats and minor supernatural threats but any threats that meet the You Must Be This Tall To Challenge Solars test goes to a contest of effects.

What @EarthScorpion et al are proposing is to remove the Inapplicable from the equation and render effects based on the keyword system. The problem is the keyword system is a system designed to determine damage (in this case, Illusions, a keyword for a certain type of social combat caused damage effect). Once you render the attempt at Stealth or Disguise into a type of damage it becomes subject to the IOIF rules for attacks not for Charm conflicts. So at that point, any contest automatically goes to the detection invested Solar. In effect, you have made Awareness/Investigation and more useful Charm XP expenditure than Stealth/Larceny because the former always trumps the latter if they get into contest.

Earthscorpion's objection is that an effect which makes attempts to, say, see a Solar or notice a theft must be Illusion effects (or Compulsions or some other form of mental damage) because they constrain the actions of the detective. I think this is hogwash of the highest order. I might as well say that a Charm which allows me to render Stealth checks Inapplicable must be a Compulsion effect because it renders Stealth an invalid action and thus constrains the character. He says that a Solar should have to "play like a Stealth game: in this respect but its an oddly specific complaint considering that Solar do not to "play like a Crafting game" or "play like a Bureuacracy game" or, in fact, play like any game but a Solars game in any other situation.

A Solar standing behind a wall on the other side of Creation is obviously an invalid target for an Awareness check. He has perfect stealth. Solar Charms in every other ability are all about removing obstacles to their use (a Melee Solar can create a weapon out of nothing, a Craft Solar can build stuff without tools, an Investigation Solar can deduce clues without sufficient evidence, etc) and suddenly the player balks at "a Solar can hide without cover". Seriously?

If the objection is more systemic, that's fine. You can totally say that a Solar should have to carry a sword if he wants to have a sword, or should have to have a hammer if he wants to drive in nails, or he has to find a clue in order to analyze it or whatever. That's a valid way of viewing the game. It's not Exalted as presented, but if you want to play it go ahead. You are best, at that point, just playing a different game with some radically different genre assumptions, however.
 
Aaron Peori said:
Both are risking the same amount if they have invested the same amount of resources into stealth/disguise and awareness respectively. If Detective has invested the same amount in Awareness/Investigation as Ninja has invested in Stealth/Disguise you are saying Detective automatically wins. What they've spent on Melee, War or Performance is irrelevant.
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Uh, what the fuck. No. What kind of insane definition is this? What you're risking is what you're risking, no more and no less, don't try to redefine English sentences.

Aaron Peori said:
...in a location where he has tactical superiority, otherwise why are you bothering with disguise? You don't sneak up on someone in a white room, Jon. You sneak up on them in the middle of their palace, or military camp, or otherwise in the a position where youo aren't wuilling to confront them directly.

And if your goal is something other than "kill him" you can loose a hell of a lot more. What if your goal is escape? Say, a Wyld Hunt is searching a city for you. If your Stealth automatically fails against Exalt-level awareness the Wyld Hunt does find you. Or the Deathknight or Infernal or whoever that is hunting you down. You can't evade his tracking either, because stealth/disguise automatically loses to awareness so any anti-tracking Charm automatically loses which means that a determined enough opponent will hunt you down eventually.

If you're caught you risk a hell of a lot more than just "a single combat". You risk revealing that you exist at all, which can change the way the opponent is acting. You risk drawing the attention of other entities that weren't interested. You reveal that you are, in fact, trying to accomplish a specific goal such as stealing something or killing someone. If you're army is waiting for you to steal the plans of the enemy so they can defend their village from an immenint attack you've failed to accomplish that and so on and so forth.
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Scenario: I, Solar Alice, want to sneak into Paranoid Solar Bob's base and steal his shit / sabotage his base / spy on his plans / etc. Solar Bob, if he ever gets me in line of sight and figures out he needs to, can turn on Eye of the Unconquered Sun and instantly see me, then proceed to try to cut my head off (good luck Bob, I have a paranoia combo too). The other inhabitants of Solar Bob's base are Solar Bob's two circlemates, none of which have Eye of the Unconquered Sun or any significant investment into anti-stealth beyond Reflex Sidestep Technique, Solar Bob's demon summons and Solar Bob's mortal servitors, none of which are going to penetrate my stealth.

Let's see, what can't I do in this scenario? What does Bob's perfect counter to me do in terms of restricting my actions? I can't kill Bob without beating him in a straight up fight. However, I can't kill any of Bob's circlemates without beating them in a straight up fight either because they have Reflex Sidestep Technique, so whatever. I can't restealth and leave without danger if I get Bob into a fight and he has me in line of sight, because Eye. I can't do anything to Bob's stuff while Bob is physically present and looking at it unless I want to get into a fight, because Eye.

That's pretty much it. Everyone else in the base except for Bob may as well not exist for all they can stop me, and Bob can't be everywhere at once, or perceive everywhere at once. In fact, I can even act in Bob's line of sight if I do nothing to make him think he needs to turn the blazing Eye searchlight on because somebody's sneaking around, which is something I want to do regardless. Do you think I'll be able to accomplish my objectives, Peori? Pretty sure I can check every single thing off effortlessly unless it involves something Bob keeps on his person or always in his line of sight at all times.

So. Despite all that Bob has sunk into anti-stealth countermeasures, including a perfect counter to stealth, I am still accomplishing everything I want to do there. I'm feeling pretty good about my stealth investment here, sucks to be Bob. And this is Bob's actual personal base, too, where he actually lives. If I decide to go fuck his stuff up elsewhere, such as any location he considers important where I am not physically present in his home, what's he gonna do? Cry?
 
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Aaron Peori said:
Eye of the Cat, Lunars. Renders all invalid awareness actions automatically successful.
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No, it doesn't.
It lets you notice anything within your sensory range that would normally be an invalid target for a Perception roll based on your sight, smell, or hearing. You notice things. You don't see through a disguise. That's not noticing something.

(It also does nothing against a guy who's just hiding in a crowd, which is hilarious.)
 
If your disguise renders your identity a thing that is not a valid thing to notice in the range of the Lunars sight hearing or smell it triggers. Since that is a 'detail'.
 
(shrug) People wanted a non-Solar example. The Solar example is Eye of the Unconquered Sun which makes disguise Inapplicable, so Charm that render detection Inapplicable are in contest and Eye specifically has rules for how the roll-off is resolved.

What I'm saying is that if you want a system where "Master Detective" and "Master of Disguise/Master Thief" get into a contest to be something that can go either way...

We have that, right now.

If you change Stealing from Plain Sight Spirit to be an Illusion effect, than you make the Detective win, always.

Which is fine. If you want that. Personally, I'm quite happy with being able to run to overwhelming number of stories where people used disguises to fool even the most perceptive opponents.
 
Aaron Peori said:
(shrug) People wanted a non-Solar example. The Solar example is Eye of the Unconquered Sun which makes disguise Inapplicable, so Charm that render detection Inapplicable are in contest and Eye specifically has rules for how the roll-off is resolved.
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Not actually the case. EotUS doesn't interface with "perception rolls are inapplicable" at all, instead making the initial disguise attempt invalid in the first place. It only forces a roll-off on perfect disguise, not disguise rendering perception inapplicable (the latter outright fails).

EotUS' roll-off also stomps everything in the game that could contest it by simple virtue of an extra (Essence) autosux.

Also the idea that the capstone of Solar Awareness is supposed to be the only Charm that is used to contest basic Stealth effects like Invisible Statue Spirit is just hilariously dumb.
 
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